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#301 of 387 Old 01-23-2009, 07:05 PM
 
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Never mind. I figured it out.

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#302 of 387 Old 01-24-2009, 01:26 PM
 
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Never mind. I figured it out.
Oh, glad to hear.

I'm finally just finishing my period, probably another week before things get interesting around here. If anyone else has experience with ridiculous periods PP I am waiting to hear.

cfiddilinmamma, do you have an update???

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#303 of 387 Old 01-24-2009, 05:19 PM
 
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I've tried finding the answer in my copy of TCOYF but wasn't having any luck. DD1 is sick today so I'm not getting to give it enough attention to actually find it.

If yesterday was my peak day (as an example) why would my o date be listed for today (on a very unfertile day)?

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#304 of 387 Old 01-24-2009, 06:43 PM
 
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ok so i've basically had fertile CM all cycle so far. annoying!
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#305 of 387 Old 01-24-2009, 07:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OtherMother'n'Madre View Post
I've tried finding the answer in my copy of TCOYF but wasn't having any luck. DD1 is sick today so I'm not getting to give it enough attention to actually find it.

If yesterday was my peak day (as an example) why would my o date be listed for today (on a very unfertile day)?
The peak day just means it's the last day of fertile CF. As ovulation happens, or even a bit before, all the CF dries up really fast. So, your first dry day after your fertile CF is often your actual O date...however, you also can't tell exactly when you ovulated, and you can't confirm that you have in fact ovulated until you've seen your temperatures go up. Usually, ovulation is the day before the temp rise. So you can't say ovulation is today (I know you were only giving an example but thought I'd clarify) until you see your temps jump up tomorrow.

Does that make sense?

Also, I'm not entirely sure how this works, but if today is the day after your peak day, you are not infertile, you are actually still fertile because sperm can fertilize the egg until it disintegrates, 6-12 hours after it's released. I don't think they need there to be any fertile CF if the egg is already released...but someone else will have to confirm that thought...

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#306 of 387 Old 01-24-2009, 07:31 PM
 
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I got all that. What I guess I'm asking is why would you mark the day after your peak day as your ovulation and not the peak day? It makes more sense to me (and this is after you see the temp rise etc.) to mark the last EWCM with a HSO cervix as ovulation as opposed to dry with a HFC cervix. My cervix and cm rarely line up with my temps though so this could just be me being confused because my body is confused.

I know I can override and put to what I think actually happened but I'm curious anyways.

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#307 of 387 Old 01-24-2009, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What I guess I'm asking is why would you mark the day after your peak day as your ovulation and not the peak day? It makes more sense to me (and this is after you see the temp rise etc.) to mark the last EWCM with a HSO cervix as ovulation as opposed to dry with a HFC cervix. My cervix and cm rarely line up with my temps though so this could just be me being confused because my body is confused.
Because CF can't definitively tell you whether or not you've Oed, only a thermal shift can. Your O day is the day before the thermal shift begins regardless of what your CF and CP are. You don't even have to record CF and CP to pinpoint O. That's only used to tell when you are potentially fertile.

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#308 of 387 Old 01-24-2009, 09:53 PM
 
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Tested twice today at 10 dpo and got bfn both times. Now I'm sad. I can't wait for this cycle to be over with! Way too many emotions.
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#309 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 01:05 AM
 
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It could still be early though...?
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#310 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 12:28 PM
 
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cahwilson: Your temp is still up, don't get too upset yet. Give it a day or two and test again!!!

AFM: I am on cd2 and my temps still have not gone below my coverline. THis is definetly AF, so I am very confused. DO you think it could be the new thermometer? I got this one the day before I o'd. Check out my chart and tell me what you think!!
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#311 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 01:53 PM
 
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Thanks guys! It's so funny b/c as soon as we slipped up I did not want to be pregnant and then for the next week I convince myself I am, and now I want to be. SO crazy! I swear I am never having sex again. Lol I just have to remind myslef that now is not a good time for us to have another baby. Dh did say yesterday that he wouldn't kill me if I was pregnant. I used an interent "early" test so I feel pretty sure that it is right. I will have to test agian though before stopping the progesterone.

MarineMommy- Your temp did drop, but thats weird that it didn't go below coverline.
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#312 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 02:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
So, your first dry day after your fertile CF is often your actual O date...however, you also can't tell exactly when you ovulated, and you can't confirm that you have in fact ovulated until you've seen your temperatures go up.
Since you can't know exactly when you O'ed, how can you say the first dry day is actually often the day you O? Very confused now... You can never know unless you have a U/S or something, or am I totally off here?
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#313 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 02:36 PM
 
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Well here I am checking in again because we might have another oops!

Quick recap: 2 cycles ago we had an oops. Basically we dtd when I had creamy cm, a few hours later it turned into ewcm, and 5 days later I ovulated. Got pregnant and then miscarried a day or so after that. The next cycle we did not dtd at all until ovulation was confirmed so I could get a handle on what my BIP really is and try to prevent any future oops. I was really detailed in my charting of what sort of cm I had every day (i.e not just "creamy" but would list even the slightest 1/10th inch stretchiness, color, etc). I felt like I had a good handle on things again.

So this cycle we're just going along, everything's fine. I have creamy cm but I keep referring to my last chart and for me it does not appear to be fertile. Yesterday the creamy cm started to take on a very very slightly fertile quality to it. And I mean very very light, there was basically no stretch at all, it was still creamy in color, etc. So we stopped dtd since we want to be super extra cautious. Yesterday morning I had a very slight temp increase (usually my temp is either 97.2 or 96.8, it was 97.3) but today I woke up to a big temp increase! I just don't get it at all. For the past 1.5 yrs of charting I've always had creamy cm, then ewcm. I haven't had any ewcm at all this cycle and mine is always very copious, it's impossible to miss. Also my nipples usually hurt starting about 1 week before ovulating and then are pain free again once I've ovulated. They haven't hurt at all.

I know this could be a fluke and I didn't ovulate. I had none of my usual signs at all. But the numbers scare me. I'm very "regular" in the actual numbers of my temperature. About 96% of my pre-o temps are either 97.2 or 96.8 and about 99% of my post-o temps are either 97.9 or 98.1. I don't know why but I basically never fluctuate, even when I take my temp hours early or late. This morning it was 97.9.

I'm not super religious but I am starting to think that perhaps a higher power believes I need to be pregnant right now even if I don't agree.

ETA: I just took a shower and checked internally (which I do every day) and now I have ewcm and a high & soft cervix. So the temp jump must be a fluke, right?

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#314 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 04:10 PM
 
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Both FF and Ovusoft have my O date wrong. It was CD16 (Friday)

Shelsi, good luck.
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#315 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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Because CF can't definitively tell you whether or not you've Oed, only a thermal shift can. Your O day is the day before the thermal shift begins regardless of what your CF and CP are. You don't even have to record CF and CP to pinpoint O. That's only used to tell when you are potentially fertile.
That makes sense. I always forgot thsoe 2 aren't required to chart. Mine is so confusing I need to stop using it.

That said though it still doesn't quite click. Sorry if this is getting old. Just trying to understand. When cm and cp are used in conjunction with temps and you have have your temp jump signifying ovulation why isn't it on the last day of fertile quality cm? The temp. increase doesn't come until after you've ovulated so it still seems it would make sense that it gets noted on the last day. Make sense?

For instance, we'll use my wonky cm and cp here , I had 2 days of EWCM. The first day I had a HSO cervix and the second day I had a HMO cervix. I took a bath on the second day and had checked my cervix an hour or so before hand. As I got out I noticed some blood tinged CM so I checked again and in that time it had changed to HFC. I knowing, according to TCOYF, that fertile CM can start drying up within hours and CP can go to unfertile once estrogen has peaked. Now obviously your body can have fluke jumpstarts but assuming it doesn't why wouldn't I list that last day as O (assuming I had a temp increase and I didn't revert back to fertile)? It seems to me that that would have been a more probable o date than the following day when things were like the sahara down below.

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#316 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 05:10 PM
 
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AFM: I am on cd2 and my temps still have not gone below my coverline. THis is definetly AF, so I am very confused. DO you think it could be the new thermometer? I got this one the day before I o'd. Check out my chart and tell me what you think!!
I don't know, but my temps did the same thing this cycle. Look at my chart. The last high temp is because I'm sick but the first four were crazy high for the beginning of my cycle.

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Since you can't know exactly when you O'ed, how can you say the first dry day is actually often the day you O? Very confused now... You can never know unless you have a U/S or something, or am I totally off here?
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For instance, we'll use my wonky cm and cp here , I had 2 days of EWCM. The first day I had a HSO cervix and the second day I had a HMO cervix. I took a bath on the second day and had checked my cervix an hour or so before hand. As I got out I noticed some blood tinged CM so I checked again and in that time it had changed to HFC. I knowing, according to TCOYF, that fertile CM can start drying up within hours and CP can go to unfertile once estrogen has peaked. Now obviously your body can have fluke jumpstarts but assuming it doesn't why wouldn't I list that last day as O (assuming I had a temp increase and I didn't revert back to fertile)? It seems to me that that would have been a more probable o date than the following day when things were like the sahara down below.
Ok, I think I understand what you both are asking and...I am not sure. I know that it's not possible to prove when you ovulated without ultrasound, but the fertility sign that proves you have ovulated is your temp...once your temps jumps up, you have ovulated, so it likely occured the day before the temp jump. This is often (at least for me) the first day of dry after all the EWCM. However, it can take a little time for the hormones to affect your body temperature, so it could be off by a day or so. It doesn't really matter though, because you don't need to determine the actual day you ovulate. To practice FAM you only need to know the days you are or aren't potentially fertile, so your signs of fertile CM combined with temp will tell you that you have ovulated and are therefore safe, or you have not yet ovulated and are not safe.

I think I am being way too wordy and maybe still do not understand the problem.

Shelsi,

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#317 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That makes sense. I always forgot thsoe 2 aren't required to chart. Mine is so confusing I need to stop using it.
If you are cta, you should still chart your CF so you can have an idea of when you are potentially fertile unless you plan to abstain or use bc until after you have Oed.

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That said though it still doesn't quite click. Sorry if this is getting old. Just trying to understand. When cm and cp are used in conjunction with temps and you have have your temp jump signifying ovulation why isn't it on the last day of fertile quality cm? The temp. increase doesn't come until after you've ovulated so it still seems it would make sense that it gets noted on the last day. Make sense?
It's not the actual O that causes all these changes. It's hormone levels that cause the changes in CF and CP and ultimately cause a mature egg to be released. According to TCOYF, CF can actually start to dry up before you O. Temping is only accurate to within 3 days of O. Unless you have an ultrasound every day until you O, you can't really know for sure exactly which day you Oed. It can take up to 3 days for progesterone levels to get high enough for your temps to reflect O. To be as careful as possible, you have to assume you have not Oed until you see a clear and sustained thermal shift with your temps. Otherwise, you could accidentally have unprotected sex when you are still fertile if you are cta or stop having sex before you O and not get pregnant if you ctc. Does that help?

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#318 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 06:18 PM
 
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Yup! Both replies helped a ton!

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#319 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 09:02 PM
 
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So basically, you need to temp to CTA. Is that what you're saying? B/c if you don't, you could DTD when you shouldn't? I get that and I get the cross-checking of temps and CM. But if you're saying temps are required, why is CM not accurate enough to CTA effectively? I guess I'm still trying to find my place in all this with a method that's effective and works for me at the same time.
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#320 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 09:36 PM
 
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So basically, you need to temp to CTA. Is that what you're saying? B/c if you don't, you could DTD when you shouldn't? I get that and I get the cross-checking of temps and CM. But if you're saying temps are required, why is CM not accurate enough to CTA effectively? I guess I'm still trying to find my place in all this with a method that's effective and works for me at the same time.
yep, strictly speaking, you can't necessarily reliably CTA w/o temping because w/o temping you have no way to know definitively if you O'd or not.

i'm not sure what you're asking with the bolded part there...?

marinemommy, the coverline is just a visual representation to make your chart easier for you to read, it represents no actual biological data (meaning, even if it's rare for you, the fact that you have AF w/o a temp drop below the coverline doesn't mean anything significant.)
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#321 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So basically, you need to temp to CTA. Is that what you're saying? B/c if you don't, you could DTD when you shouldn't? I get that and I get the cross-checking of temps and CM. But if you're saying temps are required, why is CM not accurate enough to CTA effectively? I guess I'm still trying to find my place in all this with a method that's effective and works for me at the same time.
You can do it however you want. If you prefer to use Billings rather than FAM, that's fine. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules to how any one person should or should not chart or where they fit. But, like akaisha said, without temps you cannot know for sure that you have Oed and are absolutely safe. When just charting CF and/or CP, you can know when you are potentially fertile and when you are most likely not fertile but you cannot know definitively if and when you Oed. Them's the rules of FAM.

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#322 of 387 Old 01-25-2009, 11:55 PM
 
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So basically, you need to temp to CTA. Is that what you're saying? B/c if you don't, you could DTD when you shouldn't? I get that and I get the cross-checking of temps and CM. But if you're saying temps are required, why is CM not accurate enough to CTA effectively? I guess I'm still trying to find my place in all this with a method that's effective and works for me at the same time.
You can CTA using the Billings method without temping. You just have to wait the required number of days after any fertile CF, and you have to avoid again if it comes back, right? and can't assume you're safe during AF, etc...I'm assuming you know that better than I do because that's what you use right? Different rules than FAM, not quite as effective I don't think, but still pretty effective provided you do it right.

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#323 of 387 Old 01-26-2009, 03:13 AM
 
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So in a few months I will be TTC again and this time I am going to try to shoot for a girl using the 3-4 days before O method among other things. I have been using these CTA charts to get used to my paterns and so far I have been somewhat consistent. FF is not always right but it seems that I consistently have 3 days of EWCM and HSO CP along with 1-2 days of Mittleschmertz (MS). Usually ff puts O day one the most painful day of MS and the last day of EWCM and HSO (which is what I believe to correct). I know that every month can vary but anyone have any thoughts on any of this?????

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#324 of 387 Old 01-26-2009, 10:57 AM
 
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So in a few months I will be TTC again and this time I am going to try to shoot for a girl using the 3-4 days before O method among other things. I have been using these CTA charts to get used to my paterns and so far I have been somewhat consistent. FF is not always right but it seems that I consistently have 3 days of EWCM and HSO CP along with 1-2 days of Mittleschmertz (MS). Usually ff puts O day one the most painful day of MS and the last day of EWCM and HSO (which is what I believe to correct). I know that every month can vary but anyone have any thoughts on any of this?????
I say go for it. The lady I used to babysit for told me years later that she planned her boy and girl with charting. She was a FAM gal and tried the whole timing for a boy/girl thing and it worked! Who knows if it was luck or not but she believes it worked for her. If after 6 months you have not concieved then I would probably go back to DTD every day with EWCM but that is just me.
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#325 of 387 Old 01-26-2009, 11:12 AM
 
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I say go for it. The lady I used to babysit for told me years later that she planned her boy and girl with charting. She was a FAM gal and tried the whole timing for a boy/girl thing and it worked! Who knows if it was luck or not but she believes it worked for her. If after 6 months you have not concieved then I would probably go back to DTD every day with EWCM but that is just me.
Thanks. Based on my charts would you dtd until you have EWCM then stop? The temping tells me nothing of when I should dtd but rather if I timed it right. Any thoughts

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#326 of 387 Old 01-26-2009, 11:59 AM
 
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For a girl you want to DTD 3-4 days before O. So based on your last 2 charts, I would DTD up until the first day of EWCM then stop (dtd on the EW day obviously). You could try using preseed on the days before the EW too.
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#327 of 387 Old 01-26-2009, 01:14 PM
 
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We tried for our daughter using the "How to Choose the Sex of Your Baby" Shettles method. It was very informative and worked for us. Using that exact principle of going ahead of ovulation.


I'm on cd 18 here and 3dpo! So excited, although I'm not that excited to have that early of a period predicted... but I can't complain if my cycles are figuring themselves out!
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#328 of 387 Old 01-26-2009, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You can CTA using the Billings method without temping. You just have to wait the required number of days after any fertile CF, and you have to avoid again if it comes back, right? and can't assume you're safe during AF, etc...I'm assuming you know that better than I do because that's what you use right? Different rules than FAM, not quite as effective I don't think, but still pretty effective provided you do it right.
Thank you. You said this much better than I did. What I meant when I said there is no hard and fast rule on how to cta was that you can use whatever method you like. I didn't start this group but I don't think it's exclusive. Personally, I think some are more accurate and safer than others. The more info you have, the safer you can be.

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#329 of 387 Old 01-26-2009, 04:14 PM
 
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The Billings', WHO trials, and other studies say the method is 99% effective when used correctly. I'm pretty darn good at noticing and interpreting the mucus or lack thereof. So I guess that's as good as it gets. Temping really doesn't fit my lifestyle and there are other reasons it's not practical. Part of me wants to do it for the additional info/security, but when it comes down to it, I don't see the point. I waffle back and forth on this at least once a cycle or so. So who knows... For now it's Billings only.
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#330 of 387 Old 01-26-2009, 04:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akaisha View Post
yep, strictly speaking, you can't necessarily reliably CTA w/o temping because w/o temping you have no way to know definitively if you O'd or not.

i'm not sure what you're asking with the bolded part there...?

marinemommy, the coverline is just a visual representation to make your chart easier for you to read, it represents no actual biological data (meaning, even if it's rare for you, the fact that you have AF w/o a temp drop below the coverline doesn't mean anything significant.)
Sorry Amber, can't see the bolded part...
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