Charting to Avoid/Fertility Awareness, April 2010 - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-11-2010, 03:01 PM
 
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MW - do you think maca or vitex would help me? I would like to have somewhat shorter cycles..........day 28 ovulation is a tad annoying.....
Here's where I got my info. Natural Fertility Shop The website groups supplements by problems as well as individually. I chose maca because it's recommended for PCOS and recurrent miscarriage.

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Old 04-11-2010, 03:50 PM
 
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Just reading along and waiting to see what happens with everyone.

AFM: My chart looks pretty. Should have a visit from by the end of the week. It is great knowing that since I O'd earlier than last month, I should expect sooner. Yay for charting!

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Old 04-11-2010, 10:21 PM
 
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JJ - Hugs to you. I know you were conflicted about a pregnancy this month, so I'm sorry for the weird emotions your negative test must have brought. Isn't being a woman weird?

I finally had a temp shift today - day 27. We'll see if it sticks around! DD has not been a serene cosleeper this month and the weather's been doing all sorts of wackiness, so I hope my temps are vaguely reliable.

I seem to have had, like, 12 days of EWCM this month. Is that possible? Or was I categorising it wrong? Some days it was (TMI alert!) two different textures, like I had wetter, clear CM as well as some strings of tacky but stretchy opaque CM. Anyone else experience this?

I have longish cycles like you, annie. I'm torn between being happy to have fewer periods and annoyed that my follicular phase drags on forever. Isn't fewer periods a good thing though, health-wise? Less iron being lost (and I'm prone to anaemia, so that's good), but also reduced risk of reproductive cancers? Is there any particular benefit to a 28-day cycle, other than a higher ratio of safe days for those of us without a BIP? What do long cycles "mean", health-wise? I can't recall Toni Weschler covering that.

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Old 04-11-2010, 11:12 PM
 
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I've been taking maca for 3 months now, maybe 4? And it took about 8 weeks to kick in, but my O day has been 21 and 25 the last two cycles, which is a HUGE improvement for me! I've also changed my diet and some other things, too. I also chose it over the vitex because a) when i took the vitex, it raised my temps so high for so long (15 day LP!) that I thought and felt like I was preggo (thanks to increased progesterone). Plus, there is some debate as to whether vitex is safe to take during pregnancy, but then how fast do you wean off of it so as not to cause a miscairrage, etc. However, vitex is waaaaay cheaper than maca, so if you're def. not getting pregnant, it could be worth a shot. But you really do have to give it like 3 months to really kick in.

Smokering: Yes, i usually have at least 12 days of EWCF before I O! Crazy annoying, isn't it? I know that for me, part of it is still my body sorting itself out from being on the Pill, and part of it might be the maca that I take, and I honestly think that part of it is just me! As long as you have a few periods a year, it's fine. The biggest concern is ovarian cancer if you're building lots of eggs that never "leave" (like PCOS) or if you build up your enmetrium a lot, which can lead to endometriosis and other problems like that. Charting helps to assure you that that isn't happening. As long as you are producing enough estrogen to protect your bones and cardiovascular system, you should be good.

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Old 04-12-2010, 01:11 AM
 
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So sorry about that emotional roller coaster JJ I know it's hard. Isn't it just NUTS that all the early pg symptoms can be PMS too... drives me batty.

I have lots and lots of EWCM on my longer cycles, but on my shorter ones (30-something days) it usually sticks to around 6 or so... if I do happen to notice two different textures, I'll record the more fertile one just to be on the safe side.

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Old 04-12-2010, 01:34 AM
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Hi ladies!

I haven't been around for a while because I am just passing 13mo PP and still no PPAF. I have had about 4 months now of alternating peak mucus days and dry days. DD's sleep and eating patterns have been all over the map. I have no idea what the heck is going on with my body. I feel like I'm about to ovulate all the time, but then nothing happens.

DH has been totally adamant that there will be no more children for a while (unless we have an oops and he would welcome it, obviously, but he really doesn't want it) so he has been the condom police since about 6mo PP. It is totally killing my libido. I hate feeling like I'm anticipating him pulling out to put the condom on every. single. time.

Then there was last night. I don't really bother him with all my ups and downs unless he asks because I know he's always going to use protection. So I have had about 3 days of copious wet CF and some EW. So he has the condom ready and then... he didn't put it on. AHHHH!!!!!! What?! WHAT?!!!! We didn't talk about that! I want another baby like nothing else, but I also wanted us to DECIDE to do it. After, I just said, "So what was that about?" He tells me that since we had a long dry spell w/o DTD he wasn't able to time it right, but that he really enjoyed it. He was very sorry that we hadn't discussed it and it was totally not intentional.

I checked my CP this morning. High, soft, very open.

What are my chances? I still haven't told him about all my fertility signs. He said, with where we are now, getting pg from that one time wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. He would be okay with it. I'm not sure how much I should tell him. If I'm not pg, it doesn't matter. I don't want to freak him out.

I would like to have one baby, just ONE, that we actually TRIED to have. My other two were unplanned as well.
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:09 PM
 
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Smokering ~ The things I've heard of being dangerous with longer cycles have to do with the cause. Like Emily said, PCOS can have serious health effects. Also, if a woman goes too long without having the endometrium lining can get too thick and old and not be healthy for a pg, among other things. I think as long as you have a bleed every 3 months it's ok. Depending on your particular circumstances I would be concerned about a hormonal imbalance with continued long cycles and more than a week of EWCF. Oh, and you should record the most fertile CF you see even if it seems to be mixed with something else. If it stretches an inch or more, it's EW regardless of how else it looks.

InMediasRes ~ Any time you dtd unprotected when you have fertile CF there is a chance of getting pg. Without temping to see how close it is to O, though, you can't really know how much of a chance. I say wait 2 weeks and if you don't get or have continued fertile signs, take a hpt. Maybe your dh was overcome by your fertile pheremones and couldn't help himself. Men can sense when a woman is fertile. It makes sense to me that men would sort of lose their heads during that time the same way women do. How many times has one of us commented on how difficult it is to stick to the rules when we are close to O?

I'm curious. Is stopping to put a condom on right before ejaculation considered proper use? I'm thinking it isn't and, therefore, if you got pg you'd have to blame it on user error rather than condom method failure.

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Old 04-12-2010, 01:14 PM
 
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Maybe your dh was overcome by your fertile pheremones and couldn't help himself. Men can sense when a woman is fertile. It makes sense to me that men would sort of lose their heads during that time the same way women do. How many times has one of us commented on how difficult it is to stick to the rules when we are close to O?
This is so true! Dh and I have had several conversations about how when I am fertile he can "sense" it. He says it makes him not want to pull out (although he always does). I have the same feeling around that time as well...not wanting him to pull out even though I do NOT want a baby right now. It's primordial or something. It's actually pretty cool how that works, but not so easy.

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Old 04-12-2010, 01:41 PM
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InMediasRes ~ Any time you dtd unprotected when you have fertile CF there is a chance of getting pg. Without temping to see how close it is to O, though, you can't really know how much of a chance. I say wait 2 weeks and if you don't get or have continued fertile signs, take a hpt. Maybe your dh was overcome by your fertile pheremones and couldn't help himself. Men can sense when a woman is fertile. It makes sense to me that men would sort of lose their heads during that time the same way women do. How many times has one of us commented on how difficult it is to stick to the rules when we are close to O?

I'm curious. Is stopping to put a condom on right before ejaculation considered proper use? I'm thinking it isn't and, therefore, if you got pg you'd have to blame it on user error rather than condom method failure.
We know there's always a chance, even with a condom. I am Catholic (DH is sorta up in the air about NFP, but I would like to follow it) so I leave any contraception up to DH, but both of us accept that any time could be the time we get pg, no matter what we use. Our chances are obviously much higher when we did what we did the other night.

I guess I'm just going to wait and test in a few weeks. With no cycles to go from, I have no idea if I was fertile or just doing what my body has been doing for the last 4 months.

And DH follows the w/d rules and just puts a condom on to finish. He is usually out long long before the end. Obviously, we would be blaming this time on user error one way or the other .
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:24 PM
 
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CD2!!! whoop de whoop!

Why I get so excited to feel like crap I have noooo idea.......I guess its better to feel like crap for a few days other than 9 months straight!

About the whole long cycle thing.......I'm not TO worried about it right now. As long as they stay within the 30-45 day range. Another reason I'm not to worried about it is because I really only have about a week or so of fertile CF before O - so that's good.

ANYWAYS - good luck to everyone else! I'm off to avoid for another month Although I will try to keep up with this thread more this month.

P.S. - I am still totally waiting for an update from you WWC!!!!!!!!

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Old 04-12-2010, 03:55 PM
 
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CD2!!! whoop de whoop!
This is mesmerizing.

JJ: I hope your mind/body sort everything out -- it's amazing how our hormones change our minds about things. . .

InMediasRes: I know what you mean about wanting to plan -- I've been happy to have both my kids but def. not trying! It seems like it would be so cool to really TRY.

WWC:

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Old 04-12-2010, 04:03 PM
 
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Hi all,

This is my 2nd cycle since starting back of FAM from 4 years ago(I have more information now though than I did back then). I do have some more questions..

I am reading "Taking charge of your Fertility" and I notice she said not to use a thermometer that reads to the 100th of a degree, but that best one I have. I like it because it holds the last temp taking so I did not have to record it until I get up, would you change your thermometer because of it. I do have 2 more that records to the 10th of a degree but it doesn't save the last number that was temp.

Oh..almost forgot. Does anybody stretch the first 5 day rule to 6 or 7 days when they learn their ovulation patterns. For instant, I have long cycles. When I use to do FAM my earliest Ovulation would be on the CD16 with the latests in the 20's. Or is this too much of a risk?


Other than the questions above, I am going to do cervix checks this cycle I am curious and excited to feel the changes that occur and it would be cool to know some more signs.
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:09 PM
 
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My therm reads to the 100th and I just round it off. I can't see it being a problem.
As for stretching- by the rules, no you couldn't (unless of course you're dry), but it all depends on how much ris you're ok with right? Personally I am VERY confident that I won't ovulate before day... say 12... so I feel ok with DTD before that unprotected. However- I'm also ok with an unplanned pregnancy, and both DH and I feel strongly that what's meant to happen will happen, so if we did get pregnant from such an intance, it was meant to be. But strictly speaking-- no, that would be bending the rules, and puts you at risk, kwim?

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Old 04-12-2010, 05:05 PM
 
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What I was trying ask with the condom thing was whether or not waiting to put it on was within the rules of proper use of a condom. If not, I guess it would basically the same as withdrawal, right?

I wouldn't necessarily run out and buy a new thermometer just because the one I had went to the 100th degree. I'd probably do what jj does and just round up or down.

As far as stretching the FFD rule, I think it depends on what you mean by stretch. The reason for the FFD is because most women have at that time and can't know what, if any, CF they may have. However, most women don't O early enough for those days to be of concern. You'd have to O on cd11 or earlier to get pg from dtd during the FFD. If after the FFD you have a few days of dry or sticky (if that's your BIP), you can continue to dtd unprotected. Once you start to get any CF other than your BIP you should consider yourself potentially fertile. If you are comfortable with taking the extra risk based on your earliest recorded O, you can certainly stretch the CF rule. The thing is that no matter how regular you have been there is always the possibility of Oing way earlier than you expect and that can get you into trouble. I don't usually worry when I have creamy CF because I usually O late and have about a week of EWCF before then. I'm also very comfortable with an oops.

What's that other rule you can use for the beginning of your cycle? Something like after at least 6 charted O cycles, you can use the earliest O minus 7 rule to determine how many safe days you have. I'm not sure if that's exactly it so look it up to be sure how it's done. But for example, if your earliest O in the last 6 O cycles you've charted is cd16, you'd be safe through cd9. Or would it be cd8?

As far as having a planned rather than unplanned pg, I read somewhere that most pgs are unplanned. That's just the nature of the beast. You can plan a pg without trying, too. That would be very easy. Just dtd whenever without using any protection. Assuming no fertility issues, you should get pg within a year. TTC is very stressful and emotionally draining. We TTC hardcore for ds2 and ds3. I don't ever want to go through that again although I'd love to have one more baby.

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Old 04-12-2010, 05:35 PM
 
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As far as having a planned rather than unplanned pg, I read somewhere that most pgs are unplanned. That's just the nature of the beast. You can plan a pg without trying, too. That would be very easy. Just dtd whenever without using any protection. Assuming no fertility issues, you should get pg within a year. TTC is very stressful and emotionally draining. We TTC hardcore for ds2 and ds3. I don't ever want to go through that again although I'd love to have one more baby.
Ha ha. DH and I call that "whatevering" or the "eh" method of family planning. And I'll let you all know in a few days how effective that is for conceiving! I'm 15 DPO and my temp was 98.4 today, but I've had a 16 day LP before with temps that high (though that's when I was on vitex). I figure I'll know for sure in a few more days without needing to test, although I will, to show DH, if that becomes necessary.

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Old 04-12-2010, 06:18 PM
 
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Ha ha. DH and I call that "whatevering" or the "eh" method of family planning. And I'll let you all know in a few days how effective that is for conceiving! I'm 15 DPO and my temp was 98.4 today, but I've had a 16 day LP before with temps that high (though that's when I was on vitex). I figure I'll know for sure in a few more days without needing to test, although I will, to show DH, if that becomes necessary.

How in the world are you able to keep yourself from POAS? In your situation, I'd have to be physically restrained to avoid it!

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Old 04-12-2010, 06:35 PM
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As far as having a planned rather than unplanned pg, I read somewhere that most pgs are unplanned. That's just the nature of the beast. You can plan a pg without trying, too. That would be very easy. Just dtd whenever without using any protection. Assuming no fertility issues, you should get pg within a year. TTC is very stressful and emotionally draining. We TTC hardcore for ds2 and ds3. I don't ever want to go through that again although I'd love to have one more baby.
I know that some couples have a very hard time conceiving and that it can be very stressful, but for us, it was pretty stressful coming to terms with two babies we were totally unprepared for. I realize that sex = babies, but when you're actually staring at the stick, or up for the 40000th time in the middle of the night, or barfing every morning, it's just so much different than when you're thinking fluffy happy thoughts about babies while making googly eyes at your partner. I'd love to actually DTD with the full intention of making babies, fully knowing what I'm getting myself into (now that I've done it twice). I just want to try TTC instead of always TTA. If I'm pg this time, that may never happen. We're pretty stretched as it is. We will have three kids under four and one with minor special needs, so....this will be it for us.

Not that I am thinking all bad thoughts at this point. I do desperately want another one. I just know there is a third baby out there for our family. I just didn't think it would be this soon.
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Old 04-12-2010, 07:02 PM
 
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I know that some couples have a very hard time conceiving and that it can be very stressful, but for us, it was pretty stressful coming to terms with two babies we were totally unprepared for. I realize that sex = babies, but when you're actually staring at the stick, or up for the 40000th time in the middle of the night, or barfing every morning, it's just so much different than when you're thinking fluffy happy thoughts about babies while making googly eyes at your partner. I'd love to actually DTD with the full intention of making babies, fully knowing what I'm getting myself into
I consider dtd without protection during your fertile window with the thought of wanting a baby and knowing that you could get pg from what you are doing and hoping to get pg as planning for a pg. Intentionally not using any method of bc because you have a desire to get pg would make that pg, whenever it happened, planned. You don't have to really try in order to do that. That's not the same as an unplanned pg, which would be getting pg without any desire, thought or intention to do so or knowledge of how it happens. My ds1 was completely unplanned. I had gone off bcps after a doctor told me I couldn't get pg because I wasn't getting and, therefore, wasn't Oing. The doc said I should give my body a break from the hormones. He neglected to tell me that I could become fertile again and O at any time. Maybe he didn't know that, either. TTC to me would be scheduling sex for optimal baby making, maybe forcing yourself to dtd when you don't want to, cramming in as much sex as possible during your fertile window. That sort of thing. It's a fine line, I guess.

For some people it may be very easy. They decide to TTC and get pg within the first few cycles without much effort. That's nice. Those couples probably didn't really need to do anything other than stop using bc in the first place, though. To me, deciding to have a planned pg doesn't have to include all the work involved in TTC. KWIM?

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Old 04-12-2010, 07:21 PM
 
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Depending on your particular circumstances I would be concerned about a hormonal imbalance with continued long cycles and more than a week of EWCF.
Huh. Um. Okay. What would the hormonal imbalance be? Too much... estrogen? (I haven't read TCOYF for a while!)

My cycles aren't super-abnormally long, I don't think (although I've never paid much attention before I started charting). Longer than a month - maybe every six weeks? Here's my chart - I'm thinking I may have Oed yesterday, but had a slight temp dip today and still had EWCM yesterday, so I'm not sure. Last cycle my shift wasn't terribly clear either. Drat, I'm going to be one of those women with unpretty charts, aren't I!

Does anything on that chart scream "hormonal imbalance" to you, just out of morbid curiosity? We conceived DD pretty quickly the first time around, so I'd never thought to worry about anything.

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Old 04-12-2010, 08:16 PM
 
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Huh. Um. Okay. What would the hormonal imbalance be? Too much... estrogen? (I haven't read TCOYF for a while!)

My cycles aren't super-abnormally long, I don't think (although I've never paid much attention before I started charting). Longer than a month - maybe every six weeks? Here's my chart - I'm thinking I may have Oed yesterday, but had a slight temp dip today and still had EWCM yesterday, so I'm not sure. Last cycle my shift wasn't terribly clear either. Drat, I'm going to be one of those women with unpretty charts, aren't I!

Does anything on that chart scream "hormonal imbalance" to you, just out of morbid curiosity? We conceived DD pretty quickly the first time around, so I'd never thought to worry about anything.
That link took me to my chart.

Lots and lots of days of EWCF can be an estrogen problem but I'm not sure if it would be too much or not enough. It can be an issue with PCOS, which I think can result in increased estrogen levels. I can't remember what TCOYF says about it. It doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem. It's just something you might want to have checked out if you are concerned. It could be a temporary thing depending on your circumstances, like if you've had a baby recently or just went off hormonal bc.

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Old 04-12-2010, 10:37 PM
 
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Oops! Um, how do I make it so my chart appears to you guys when I link it?

I'm 25 month PP and haven't been on HBC in the interim. I think I've always had long cycles, but I don't recall about my CM...

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Old 04-12-2010, 10:52 PM
 
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Oops! Um, how do I make it so my chart appears to you guys when I link it?

I'm 25 month PP and haven't been on HBC in the interim. I think I've always had long cycles, but I don't recall about my CM...
You have to set up your homepage and make sure it's accessible to everyone. Then you copy and paste the link at the top of the homepage setup page.

I'm sorry if you've already explained this. How long have you had your cycles back since having your baby? Your body may still be regulating itself, especially if you are/were breastfeeding. I've discovered it takes me about 2 years to feel back to normal after having a baby even though my cycles tend to return around the year mark.

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Old 04-13-2010, 12:16 AM
 
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OK, did this work?

I got my cycles back at 16mo PP. I'm still breastfeeding quite a lot, including at night.

If decomposition persists please see your necromancer.

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Old 04-13-2010, 07:26 AM
 
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this morning. 11 day LP, 28 day cycle.

Based on a rough looking forward due to ovulation dates in the past few cycles, we will probably only be CTA for one more cycle, and then we will TTC in the next few.

Is it cool if I hang around then? I feel like I've gotten to know you guys, and I can talk about what I'm sure I will be going through if we do succeed -- and if we don't.

Kristine, Mom to Lucy (12/26/07), and Marion (3/16/11)

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Old 04-13-2010, 08:13 AM
 
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Kristine: Ooh, that's exciting! Enjoy wearing non-pregnancy clothes while you can, and... I dunno... eat liver. (Bah. I would totally not follow that very good advice about eating liver. Ghastly stuff.) Are you planning to go hardcore TTC, or just sort of ignore your fertile signs?

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Old 04-13-2010, 11:06 AM
 
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Kristine: Ooh, that's exciting! Enjoy wearing non-pregnancy clothes while you can, and... I dunno... eat liver. (Bah. I would totally not follow that very good advice about eating liver. Ghastly stuff.) Are you planning to go hardcore TTC, or just sort of ignore your fertile signs?
I did my math wrong this morning; we totally need to CTA for two more cycles, and then we are free and clear. (It's a long story and requires explanation of some silly woo-woo stuff on the part of my husband, but we'll leave it there for now). But still, getting VERY excited here.

If it were up to me, we would be just ignoring our fertile signs; we actually do quite well at timing intercourse for ovulation (ironically) but he pulls out like a pro (sigh) so there has been little worry about an oops. Robb (aka DH), however, really wants our second child to be "planned"; it's a whole THING for him, because our two year old was a total oops, and it really interfered with his feelings for her for a while. He's really going through all this again for me; he would be fine with one, but is willing to do two because I am NOT fine with one, but can live with two. (I'd have four, if it were up to me.)

So, I think we will be moderately TTC, if such a thing is allowed. I'm even going to look into the suggestions for "choosing" the sex of the baby in TCOYF. We would be pleased either way, but I know he'd like to have a son -- and so would I, for that matter.

Kristine, Mom to Lucy (12/26/07), and Marion (3/16/11)

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Old 04-13-2010, 11:18 AM
 
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Cycle 2 of charting (and first the whole month) and I am FERTILE! No doubt! EWCF, cervix wide open! DH and I are wishing we could celebrate by trying... lol. But we are determined to wait. Its funny though because the closer we get to when we are "ready", the more we want to just go for it. Apparently my fertility really is a turn on for both of us and not just me anymore

One and a half years at a minimum before we can try though...
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:26 AM
 
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OK, did this work?

I got my cycles back at 16mo PP. I'm still breastfeeding quite a lot, including at night.
Last cycle was anov., right?

Given that, I would think you had all that EWCM/watery because your body was gearing up to O but didn't. If you're still nursing lots, could be just that that's causing your body to have difficulty getting over the hump and actually ovulating. The prolactin gumming up the works, so to speak. I wouldn't worry about long term fertility based on charts at 16 months PP and still nursing, especially when you're TTA.

ETA: NM, I see that your cycle isn't over. I got confused when I saw the cycle projected for 4/17! But most of what I said still holds. Might just be taking your body longer to O because of the nursing and the higher prolactin levels, which are still partially suppressing "normal" ovulation.

dissertating wife of Boo, mama of one "mookie" lovin' 2 year old girl! intactlact:: CTA until 7/10 FF 1501dc
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:48 AM
 
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Last cycle was anov., right?

Given that, I would think you had all that EWCM/watery because your body was gearing up to O but didn't. If you're still nursing lots, could be just that that's causing your body to have difficulty getting over the hump and actually ovulating. The prolactin gumming up the works, so to speak. I wouldn't worry about long term fertility based on charts at 16 months PP and still nursing, especially when you're TTA.
That's exactly what I was going to say.

Smokering ~ How many cycles do you have charted and have you Oed during any of them? Getting PP bleeds is not the same as having your cycles back even if they are regular. Not only would I not worry about possible fertility issues at this point, I also wouldn't worry about other health problems/hormonal imbalances. Breastfeeding causes hormonal changes for a reason.

BTW, I just wanted to say to everything that although it may seem that I jump to a conclusion of PCOS whenever someone expresses a concern, I really am not diagnosing anyone with anything. I refer to PCOS a lot in relation to possible hormonal and fertility problems because that's what I know about from experience. I use it as an example of what the problem, if there is any, could be. I don't think everyone has it.

kc ~ I like your idea of moderately TTC. That's what I was trying to get at with my long and convoluted posts. There are degrees to planning a pg and TTC. You can just decide you want to get pg and stop using bc or you can go very hardcore so that you are testing and poking and prodding everything and scheduling everything down to the minutest. So yes, you can definitely TTC moderately.

On the gender selection stuff, I don't know how up to date the TCOYF info is. There's a lot more info out there then when I first read about it 6-7 years ago. The Shettles method has been essentially discredited. Now it's all about vaginal pH, foods, vitamins and supplements, positions and frequency and a lot of other things. Who knows if it actually works but it's fun to consider and try. I can see how some of the practices could be problematic if you have fertility problems. But if you don't, it should be ok in the short term.

dealic ~ We were just talking about how men can sense when a women is fertile and might lose control a bit. It's not just women who are overcome by a primal instinct to produce offspring.

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Old 04-13-2010, 12:06 PM
 
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dealic ~ We were just talking about how men can sense when a women is fertile and might lose control a bit. It's not just women who are overcome by a primal instinct to produce offspring.
I know, I found it very interesting. My ex wasn't really interested in having kids and so I didn't see that the same (he was very uptight about the possibility of any oops, and luckily we never had one) but DH wants them as much as I do and its so neat to see. Just from charting, I could see that we both are more interested when I am fertile, and he has for months claimed I smell different (better) then. But it still caught me off guard how much harder it is for him to pull out when I am fertile. I mean I know I don't have the willpower, that's long established, but.... Its pretty impressive to see it affect him the same.
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