Charting to Avoid/Fertility Awareness, May 2010 - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

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#301 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MovingMomma View Post
I think I'm having a hard time O'ing b/c I've stepped my exercise routine back up. Does anyone else have issues with that?
I have no where near as little bodyfat as you do, I'm about 40 lbs overweight right now... I started exercising earlier this month (this is week 3 I think). I'm currently on CD 32 with no ovulation (no fertile indicators right now either).

Annie - I hope you feel better soon!

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#302 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 11:26 AM
 
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You used a different thermometer than usual on CDs 12 and 14? Did you use your normal one on CD 13? What about this morning - which one did you use?

If you have some temps with the same thermometer both before and after the shift, and you get a nice clear thermal shift, and your CF agrees, I wouldn't worry too much about the different thermometers, but I would probably be cautious if you get any CF back, JIC.
I knew that switching therms was risky. CD13 is false info that I discarded, but plugged in anyway just to see what FF would do. I know that it's false and am totally aware that what I'm doing isn't right. So don't worry about that. It's just for me and my eyes and I don't put any merit in it. CD14, CD15, and today I used the BD therm, the new one. My old one has got to be buried somewhere in DD's toy bin!

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Baby Cakes: I switched therms one cycle and it was really hard to see a therm shift -- the different therms really do read differently!
The thing is my temps are pretty much following the same pattern they usually do. The only difference is they only read to the tenth and not to the hundredth, so they're rounded up or down.

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I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding that for CTA you have to consider any and all CF potentially fertile as opposed to TTC when you are looking for the most fertile CF.

This is so true!! There is so much more room for error when CTA, so you have to be careful and have all the signs line up.

AFM - CF is drying up, libido is gone, and I've had 2 high temps so even though I can't completely trust my chart, I'm feeling like O is said and done. I'll be happy to start a new chart I can use, lol.

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#303 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 11:52 AM
 
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Oh, no, Annie! I hope you feel better soon. As soon as I read, "rash", I thought allergic reaction.

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Can you remind us where you got this 3 days before thing? Is it in TCOYF? (Book packed, of course. ) I think it really can't be that common to be more than a day off. If it were, the Doering rule wouldn't work. And according to TAoNFP, the Doering rule, even paying no attention to CF, is upwards of 97% effective. Not sure of the exact number. It could be 99%.
It's in TCOYF. I can't tell you exactly where because that teen girl still has my book. I'm beginning to think I'll never get it back. That's ok, though. It was falling apart, anyway, so I needed a new copy. Anyway, TCOYF says somewhere temps only confirm O to within 3 days. In other words, it can take up to 3 days after O for progesterone to start making a real difference in your body and for a thermal shift to begin. Some people think that also means that O could happen as much as 3 days after O but I don't think that's possible based on everything else. Progesterone, in amounts that cause a thermal shift, is produced by the corpus luteum cyst that's left by the released egg. That can't happen before O. It's also what inhibits further eggs from being released. If progesterone went way up before O, O would never occur. KWIM?

How does the Doering Rule work without paying attention to CF? I thought it was all about the CF. In any case, I don't see how that contradicts what I've said. If you follow rules about CF and use protection/abstain/withdraw whenever you have CF and until you have at least 4 consecutive days of complete CF dry up, the fact that the thermal shift might be slow to show wouldn't affect anything.

I think I may have Oed (Here I go again, right? ).

I posted my Ovusoft chart to confirm something I had mentioned before about peak day. I said that if you have creamy CF after watery/ewcf without a confirmed thermal shift, the creamy day becomes your peak day. You can see on my chart that Ovusoft has set my peak day to today even though I had ewcf for a week and only creamy today because I don't have a complete thermal shift. I'm hoping I get one.

I think it's possible I the day before yesterday, cd19, and yesterday's temp might be the beginning of my thermal shift, although it's not high enough to use. The reason I say that is because I only had a tiny bit of ewcf yesterday morning and then I was sticky the rest of the day. On cds 17 and 18 I had a LOT of ewcf, cd18 being the most. My CP went from so high that I could barely reach it on cd19 to MM and partly open yesterday. I've had cramps for a week with cd17 being the worst so that I had to take ibuprofen and what could've been O pain on cds 17 and 18.

If I did O now, it will be about 10 days earlier than my average. I wonder if that could be from the maca. I started taking it about halfway through last cycle.

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#304 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 02:32 PM
 
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Well I'm back from the dr and I do have an allergic reaction to the antibiotics. So that is causing the rash and making me hot. Which then makes me question ALL of my temps for the past week. Good grief. Waiting for my prescription of prednisone to be filled.

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#305 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 03:55 PM
 
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Annie, here's to hoping you feel better soon and that shows so you can toss this cycle out and start over.

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How does the Doering Rule work without paying attention to CF? I thought it was all about the CF. In any case, I don't see how that contradicts what I've said. If you follow rules about CF and use protection/abstain/withdraw whenever you have CF and until you have at least 4 consecutive days of complete CF dry up, the fact that the thermal shift might be slow to show wouldn't affect anything.
It's that you're safe up until 7 days before the earliest thermal shift you've had in the last I think 12 cycles. So for me, my earliest thermal shift has been CD 18, so I count myself safe through CD 11. That's without regard to CF. Even if I have CF on CD 11, I am still safe. I can't find anything online, but what I remember reading is that Doering was both a researcher's name and the name of his NFP "method" - which was that Doering rule combined with a three-day temp shift. Temperature-only. And that this method, *completely ignoring CF*, was something like 97-99% effective. I can't see how it could be that effective if it was at all common to O and get pregnant 3 days before your temp shifts. Sperm can easily live for four days. I would think failures of this method would be more likely due to an unexpectedly early ovulation.

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#306 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 04:31 PM
 
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Ah, I see, Mel. I wouldn't feel comfortable using that rule but that's just me.

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#307 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 04:44 PM
 
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So I've never taken prednisone much less when I am charting. Anything I need to be on the lookout for? Abnormal temps? Abnormal CF? Thanks!

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#308 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 04:54 PM
 
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So I've never taken prednisone much less when I am charting. Anything I need to be on the lookout for? Abnormal temps? Abnormal CF? Thanks!
I have yet to find a good source of how meds may affect charting. I wish there were a resource for that.

Prednisone is a corticosteroid (not anabolic or reproductively hormonal) that suppresses the immune system. I was just reading the side effects and read, "inappropriate happiness" and "loss of contact with reality." When I took it for my back a few years back I felt very happy. I called them the happy pills. When could happiness ever be inappropriate?

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#309 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 05:01 PM
 
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I have yet to find a good source of how meds may affect charting. I wish there were a resource for that.

Prednisone is a corticosteroid (not anabolic or reproductively hormonal) that suppresses the immune system. I was just reading the side effects and read, "inappropriate happiness" and "loss of contact with reality." When I took it for my back a few years back I felt very happy. I called them the happy pills. When could happiness ever be inappropriate?


Well I lost contact with reality a long time ago so some inappropriate happiness should be nice! Right now, I am just looking forward to when my arms and legs are not insanely itchy and hot!

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#310 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 06:42 PM
 
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I was just reading the side effects and read, "inappropriate happiness" and "loss of contact with reality." When I took it for my back a few years back I felt very happy. I called them the happy pills. When could happiness ever be inappropriate?
I took them for a bronchial infection and it was the happiest I've ever been. I LOVED the way I felt, but my friends say I was actually kind of obnoxious. If I had to take them now I'd use the opportunity to deep clean and organize the house -- that kind of stuff seemed fun! ah, drugs.

AFM: I *think I'm just about better from the flu -- but 97.7 is still pretty high for me -- when do you think i can start trusting the temp shift?
My Ovulation Chart

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#311 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 06:55 PM
 
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Beth, when you get three temps above your coverline that you're sure aren't caused by fever, you can trust your temp shift.

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#312 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 11:31 PM
 
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TAoNFP does recommend considering yourself in phase II in the presence of CM while using Doering, even though, as BFS said, Doering ignored CM. My personal modification is phase II w/EWCM.

I found a fascinating master's thesis on exercise and the menstrual cycle! "The Menstrual Cycle, Ovulatory, and Hormonal Effects of an 8-Week Abruptly Increasing Running Program in Recreationally Active Women." Unfortunately I can't quote from the document, but here's the link if you want to read it. I'm only a quarter of the way through it, but it seems there's a threshold of net energy levels (intake-calories burned) and below that threshold we see increased follicular phases, luteal phase defects, and anovulation, in that order and corresponding to increasing energy deficiencies. Also, exercising women are much more likely to have irregular cycles than sedentary women.

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#313 of 409 Old 05-26-2010, 11:44 PM
 
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TAoNFP does recommend considering yourself in phase II in the presence of CM while using Doering, even though, as BFS said, Doering ignored CM. My personal modification is phase II w/EWCM.
I think that's probably a great compromise which would make it even more effective. I have considered myself fertile before with EWCM before the expiration of the Doering rule. Even though I didn't O until much later so it probably would have been ok anyway. If it were to happen now I probably wouldn't bother to care because I don't feel I'm strenuously avoiding right now. But I have to say I'm pretty comfortable with 97% effectiveness.

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#314 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 12:46 AM
 
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TAoNFP does recommend considering yourself in phase II in the presence of CM while using Doering, even though, as BFS said, Doering ignored CM. My personal modification is phase II w/EWCM.
I don't know much about the Doering Rule. I must've been getting it mixed up with the Creighton Model? I can't keep track of all these different methods. Does it only use temps and day counting but no CF? So after a year of charting temps to confirm O, you use the day counting to consider yourself safe up until 7 days before your earliest thermal shift, then use precautions until you get confirmed O with temps, then safe until 7 days before again?

I probably should add I was half joking about the 9 day thing. It was just something I'd been thinking about in terms of the thermal shift only being able to pinpoint O to within days. I just thought I throw that out there and mix things up a bit.

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#315 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 12:59 AM
 
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Me again. I finally found a website that explains the Doering Rule. Here's what it says (my bolding added):

" * Doering Rule: The end of the preovulatory infertile period (the last evening safe from risk of pregnancy) is the earliest day of sustained temperature rise (of the last 6-12 cycles) - 7, provided it is a dry day. Slightly more conservative than Last Dry Day Rule.

* Women with long cycles including presence of less-fertile (i.e. sticky) cervical fluid from the end of menstruation up to the appearance of fertile cervical fluid (creamy, eggwhite) as well as 5+ days of fertile cervical fluid, this rule may be applied even in the presence of less-fertile (i.e. sticky) cervical fluid.
* An especially useful rule for couples with short luteal periods (less than 10 days of temperatures over the coverline)."

http://beutel.narod.ru/write/nfp.htm#nbc

It does give an exception for women with long cycles and who's BIP is sticky but says once you get creamy or more fertile CF, you can't use it, which is essentially the same as the rules for FAM and NFP.

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#316 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 01:04 AM
 
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Me again. I finally found a website that explains the Doering Rule. Here's what it says (my bolding added):

" * Doering Rule: The end of the preovulatory infertile period (the last evening safe from risk of pregnancy) is the earliest day of sustained temperature rise (of the last 6-12 cycles) - 7, provided it is a dry day. Slightly more conservative than Last Dry Day Rule.

* Women with long cycles including presence of less-fertile (i.e. sticky) cervical fluid from the end of menstruation up to the appearance of fertile cervical fluid (creamy, eggwhite) as well as 5+ days of fertile cervical fluid, this rule may be applied even in the presence of less-fertile (i.e. sticky) cervical fluid.
* An especially useful rule for couples with short luteal periods (less than 10 days of temperatures over the coverline)."

http://beutel.narod.ru/write/nfp.htm#nbc

It does give an exception for women with long cycles and who's BIP is sticky but says once you get creamy or more fertile CF, you can't use it, which is essentially the same as the rules for FAM and NFP.
Yes. The Doering rule in NFP requires you to abstain with any CF. But when Doering (the guy) originally came up with the Doering method (different* from the Doering rule) he ignored CF. And got a 97% or 99% or something effectiveness rate in his study.

Does that make sense now?

*I should clarify that the only difference between the Doering method and rule is that when it was adapted for NFP official rules they added the stipulation that you needed to have dry days to utilize the rule. At least as far as I remember.

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#317 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 01:29 AM
 
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I'm having trouble being motivated to start charting again. I just had a couple days of EW so I figure I'll just give myself until my next period to get myself together. I'm just checking in with you all to get some motivation.

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#318 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 04:12 AM
 
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Arrgh. My thermometer battery died. I'm only on CD4 so it's not a huge issue, but kind of a pain...

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#319 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 07:11 AM
 
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This is me.

So, my chart is turning out to be kind of disaster.

I am almost 100% sure that I O'd on either CD 14. My daughter has not been handling the sudden heat wave here well, though, and has been sleeping poorly, so all those open circles are from not getting enough sleep before temping, or from not remembering to stay still before I temped. And then there are the number of days when I just flat out forgot.

My CF has dried up entirely, and this is where my post O temps usually are. I'm thinking this is going to be a cycle where I can't actually confirm O (it looks like FF isn't going to give me crosshairs no matter what I do) but truly, we're going to be TTC next month anyway, so it's not the worst thing in the world if we oops.

Any thoughts?

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#320 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 08:06 AM
 
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You're right kcroto, you can't definitively confirm O with that chart. But FWIW if I had to guess I would put your CL at 97.9 and your O day CD 13 or 14. However, that coverline is a little low because it goes through one temp, and also, your temps don't stay above it. But, again FWIW, I quite often have charts that look a little like that when I'm not good about temping at the same time - my temps shift up slowly and/or dip back down to the coverline around 4 or 5 dpo. What I would probably do in your case is wait for two more temps in your normal post-O range (and above the 97.9 "coverline") and then if you feel confident you O'd you are probably good. Also, if your chart is complete and you've had no CF since CD 14, you are safe in the evenings until you see more CF. If you were very seriously avoiding I would caution against taking too many risks but I honestly think you are going to be fine with another couple high temps.

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#321 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 08:37 AM
 
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Sending motivation your way nerdymom!

I am just popping on to say that I've been reading all the discussion about the fine points of charting and enjoying it, so thanks.

Oh, and this looks like a pretty nice temp shift if it keeps up! I have no reason that I know of to believe it isn't a legit temp, and I definitely felt like I O'd yesterday.

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#322 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 10:39 AM
 
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Spotting started this AM so fairly certain AF will be here later today or tomorrow. Kind of glad because there is some scary stuff out there if you search prednisone in early pregnancy.

My chart: http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/1f0436

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#323 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 10:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nerdymom View Post
I'm having trouble being motivated to start charting again. I just had a couple days of EW so I figure I'll just give myself until my next period to get myself together. I'm just checking in with you all to get some motivation.
I think if I stopped charting I wouldn't be so obsessive about wanting to ttc. I think I would be able to ignore it. Ha, that's probably not the motivation you were looking for! Anyway, we'll be here when you're ready!

kcroto42 - I also think you'll be "safe" after a few more high temps. I was going to draw your coverline at 97.9 or 98.

Even though I can't 100% trust my chart, it's looking mighty pretty. I wish staring at it all day would tell me something, lol, anything!

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#324 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 12:03 PM
 
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OK, Mel, it took some doing but I finally found reference to the Doering Method not associated with NFP. It's not very clear about exactly what the method is. It's just an abstract. But it doesn't mention anything about CF, just temps and the strict and combination methods.

Doering Method (?)

I'll have to go back and see how that works out for me. Because my cycles are so long and I usually have at least a week of ewcf before O, I consider myself safe until I get ewcf. (New people ~ Don't follow me if you are strictly avoiding.)

Baby_Cakes ~ That sure does look pretty. You could use the 4 day dry up rule (Is it really a rule?). With that, you can consider yourself safe every other day that you are dry after 4 consecutive days of CF dry up after your peak. You have to be careful, though, that if/when you see any new CF you consider yourself potentially fertile again.

AnnieA ~ How long do you have to take the prednisone? I only took it for 5 days so it probably wouldn't have any effect on a pg so early if I had been in your position.

OSUvet ~ That does look promising.

kc ~ I'd put your CL at 98, so no sustained thermal shift yet. However, it does look possible that you did O around cd13 or 14.

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#325 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 12:06 PM
 
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I came across this paper. It might be useful to show to any doctors or professors who spread misinformation about NFP. Who was it that had a professor who was doing that?

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#326 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 12:07 PM
 
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so I've been out of the loop this cycle. Sick, busy, sick...and then DD might be getting chicken pox, so we're waiting to see

But I do have a chart to show off.

http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/1501dc

FF is saying I O'd on CD 18. I personally think I O'd on CD 19. Not having a temp for CD 20 (I was up all night throwing up) is kind of throwing things off.

But does anyone know why FF is setting my CL so low? It is on "Advanced." If I put it on FAM...no crosshairs. If I put it on "Research," same O day but the CL is drawn higher.

dissertating wife of Boo, mama of one "mookie" lovin' 2 year old girl! intactlact:: CTA until 7/10 FF 1501dc
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#327 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 12:27 PM
 
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ready ~ I recommend against using the Research O detector. The FF people use that to test new tweaks to the O dectectors so it's not stable. I think the Advanced O detector takes an average of the 6 temps before the thermal shift to determine where to put the CL. Personally, I think that's risky because it usually does come out so low. I'd put your CL at 97.5 or a little above that (Can you round all your temps to the nearest tenth? That would make reading it a lot easier. That extra decimal point doesn't make things more accurate.), which would put your O day on cd19 if you get another high temp tomorrow. For now, you don't have O definitively confirmed.

Where are you with the chicken pox? Anywhere near me? I'd love to expose my kids.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

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#328 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 01:47 PM
 
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I'm thinking that one more temp above 97 and I'll consider myself safe -- does that seem cautious enough for someone who is REALLY cta?
This is right around the time between DD and DS where I started playing fast and loose with the rules and got the DS (for which I am glad )
Reminder -- I took out 3 days of high temps when I was sick

*BETH* mother of DD (8) and DS (6) along with 2 dogs, 2 cats and about 100 chickens
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#329 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 02:47 PM
 
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kay, MW...I reset my CL at 97.5, and put O on cd 19 instead of 18. To me that makes more sense, but WDYT?

We're in Virginia. Not that far from you but not that close, either

dissertating wife of Boo, mama of one "mookie" lovin' 2 year old girl! intactlact:: CTA until 7/10 FF 1501dc
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#330 of 409 Old 05-27-2010, 05:15 PM
 
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Beth ~ If those last two temps are good, I'd say one more above 96.9 will do it. Using the ROT, you may even be able to put your CL at 96.7 but I prefer to be more conservative if it doesn't really mess things up.

ready ~ That looks good to me. You need to wait for one more high temp to consider yourself safe. You could probably set the O dectector to FAM and maybe get crosshairs if your temp is high enough tomorrow, depending on how much weight it puts on that missing temp. The reason you don't get crosshairs with FAM yet is because you don't have 3 temps for a thermal shift yet.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

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