Charting to Avoid/Fertility Awareness, May 2010 - Page 13 - Mothering Forums
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Family Planning > Charting to Avoid/Fertility Awareness, May 2010
kcroto42's Avatar kcroto42 11:04 PM 05-29-2010
Okay, so FF gave me hatched crosshairs, but I think they're BS, and I want to go over why, just so I can be sure I'm understanding.

I'm here...

And what I see is that it's using the ROT to disregard my temp on Day 15. It's setting my CL .01 degrees over the highest temp, disregarding the CD15, but then two of the temps are ON the CL, not above, and to show a sustained shift, they should be at least .01 above the CL, right?

So I'm sticking with O on CD 13 or 14, with the temps on CD 17 and CD 18 being low due to too much moving/not enough sleeping prior to temping. Especially since I've had no noticeable CF since then. My BIP seems to be somewhere between sticky and creamy, though, so I never mark it down, so I can see the watery and EWCF on the chart.

Interestingly, if I put the detector to "advanced," then I get solid crosshairs on CD 11, which seems early, especially given the EW three days later.

If you all agree, is there a way to manually assign crosshairs, just for my future reference?

The DH and I had our usual Saturday morning adult time. First time the 2 year old has ever walked in on us -- oops! At least we were still mostly dressed. Anyway, DH asked how we were finishing, and I said we were fine -- and then laughed and said it was the last time I had to answer that question. He gave me a funny look, and I said that he'd agreed that we would be trying in my next cycle. He gave me a goofy grin and said "Whenever," which was pretty damn spectacular.

I'm still going to hang around here next month -- wouldn't be able to survive without showing you all what's going on -- but someone should probably take me off the CTA stats for June.

Yay!!

MovingMomma's Avatar MovingMomma 11:29 PM 05-29-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by doriansmummy View Post
Cycle day 9 was unprotected, withdraw method. We have not been following the rules, I know. I guess this should be interesting. LOL
O should be CD 13. Don't get too keyed in on the triphasic appearance: your last chart had a very similar temp pattern.
Baby_Cakes's Avatar Baby_Cakes 11:32 PM 05-29-2010
@kristine - I would disregard that temp on CD7 and put your CL at 98. That would give you O at CD13 (or CD14, but w/o a temp I can't be sure), and since CDays 17 and 18 are open circles and you know they aren't too reliable b/c of interrupted sleep, that would eliminate those two low temps and give you 3 temps above your coverline.

But that's tricky stuff.

Anyone else want to weigh in? MW?
MovingMomma's Avatar MovingMomma 11:49 PM 05-29-2010
Kristine: O CD 13/14, but not "safe" until CD 18 or 19, depending on individual comfort level. What interpretation are you on? Congrats on graduating CTA! And to manually assign CH, under "ovulation detector" on your chart page, click "tuning/override" and assign your O day and CL.
onetwoten's Avatar onetwoten 01:27 AM 05-30-2010
Babycakes: I actually get quantity-wise much much more CF after o than before. I get sparing amounts of watery and EW before O, but from about 2 days post-o onwards, I generally have copious amounts of creamy, with a little bit of sticky mixed in.

Kristine: I'm with the others. It's touchy with so many open circles- are they generally taken at a different time, or just after not normal conditions ie- moving around too much like you said. That would affect how much I'd be willing to trust them. If I had to guess, I would say CD 12-14, and no WAY adavanced is correct with it's early guess.
BarefootScientist's Avatar BarefootScientist 08:38 AM 05-30-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby_Cakes View Post
Is it normal to have abundant sticky CM around 5dpo? For some reason, I thought I'd be dry for the rest of this cycle until AF came. What gives?
Yeah, some ladies have sticky in their LP. I used to sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doriansmummy View Post
Cycle day 9 was unprotected, withdraw method. We have not been following the rules, I know. I guess this should be interesting. LOL
Well...typically around here we do count withdraw as protected, when done right.

kcroto, wow, again, FF is on crack. Both ways I think. I agree with others that you can put your O day on CD 13/14. I would probably have put your CL at 98.0 and called you safe Sat night, after you'd had 3 consecutive temps above it. But especially if, as you said, there's a reason for the temps on CDs 17 and 18 to be lower, you were probably safe as early as Tuesday, though I wouldn't have counted on it then. Tricky chart. Congrats on TTC next cycle!

CD 1 here. Horrible cramps getting me up way too early in the morning.
hippy mum's Avatar hippy mum 11:36 AM 05-30-2010
Ok, I need help again-
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/28fb6b
This is the longest cycle I've had yet if I haven't o'd. If I o in the next day, that puts me at a 42 day cycle! I first thought I was going to O on d21/22 when I had spotting. And my temp just yoyo's since. I have no idea what's going on. I feel like my body keeps trying to O, but isn't. I'm used to O by at least d21. Unless some one sees an O in there some place. But when I looked back over the past year of charts, after I O, my temps always stay above 97.0 until AF.
It is a good thing I'm temping, otherwise if I were just going by cf-that's how we got ds2
So, my next question-if I start bleeding around when AF would be due, do I consider this an anovulatory cycle then?
And has anyone long cycles at all-past 40 days? I think my last few have been around 35 since Jan. My longest cycle was 38d and that was Dec cycle. I'm trying to assess my stress level to see if maybe that's effecting things this month.
MarineWife's Avatar MarineWife 01:12 PM 05-30-2010
Wow! I'm way behind. I wasn't getting email notices when people posted. I finally came to check because I thought it was strange that everyone would be so quiet over the weekend.

dorian ~ Pretty much what everyone else said. Your O should be cd13, not 14. That definitely means dtd on cd9 could result in a pg. However, like Mel said, withdrawal is a method of avoiding with relatively high success rates when done properly so I wouldn't call that unprotected. Unless you messed up the w/d, you should be fine.

BBM ~ You haven't Oed yet. If you start bleeding before you have a thermal shift, then it's anov. If you have a thermal shift and arrives after your normal lp length, then you Oed. My longest O cycle in the last 6-12 cycles was 55 days. I wouldn't worry too much about one long and/or anov cycle. It happens to almost everyone at least once. No biggie.

Asking if a cycle is anov if arrives on time without O doesn't make sense. is due X number of days after you O depending on your lp length, not after a certain # of CDs regardless of O. Technically, bleeding without O isn't . It's breakthrough bleeding.

kc ~ Your cd7 temp normally wouldn't figure into determining your CL and thermal shift since it's outside the 6 temp window. With all the open circles, I do look at more temps, though. Looking at the big picture of your chart, it does look like you may have Oed on cd13 or 14. I'd put your CL at 98. Being conservative, you can't confirm O until cd18.

I think it's ok to have thermal shift temps on the CL. They just have to be above the highest of the previous 6. If the first couple of temps in the thermal shift are on the CL, it may not indicate a thermal shift. TCOYF discusses slow-rise and stair step thermal shifts.

This is one of those instances when cross-checking with NFP may help. Using NFP, your LTL is 97.9 and your cd15 temp is 0.4 degree above that, on the HTL. The only question for me is, can you use the cd17 and 18 temps since they are right on the LTL or would you need to wait for the cd19 before considering yourself safe?

BTW, you cannot consider creamy your BIP. A BIP can only be either dry or sticky. Creamy is wet and can be the most fertile CF some women get. You can get pg relatively easily with only creamy CF. The last creamy day can be your peak day even if it's after having watery/ewcf if you have it before the thermal shift. Do you have days after cd14 when you had creamy CF? If so, what happens when you fill that in? I think the reason your crosshairs are dashed is because the CF data you have doesn't match up and you are missing a lot.

Beth ~ I think you're safe.

Baby_Cakes ~ It's normal to get more fertile seeming CF mid-lp and right before . As long as you have a clear and sustained thermal shift, you don't need to worry about it.

blueone ~ Very nice.
hippy mum's Avatar hippy mum 04:52 PM 05-30-2010
MW-thanks. I know it's "breakthrough" bleeding, not af in an anov cycle. I just thought I remembered in TCOYF she was relating a story that when she moved, she was stressed enough to push her O until almost a week after she expected it. And I can't remember much on the anov cycles. I read through what ff had to say about them. I guess I'm wondering how long can a woman go w/o O, before "breakthrough" bleeding would occur? Do you know if it says anything in TCOYF? My longest cycle in the past year is actually more like 3 months long, but that was right after the mc and I didn't start temping until the 3rd month when the spotting finally stopped.
In all, I should be happy about this right? It probably equals one less af for the year It's just annoying a bit.
MarineWife's Avatar MarineWife 05:15 PM 05-30-2010
Sorry I'm so specific. I just want to make sure that I understand what's being asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrandonsmom View Post
I guess I'm wondering how long can a woman go w/o O, before "breakthrough" bleeding would occur?
Depending on the situation, women can go years without bleeding. That's not usually healthy, though, from what I understand. When I had years of being anov after having the Norplant removed, I'd have to take progesterone every 3 months to shed my uterine lining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrandonsmom View Post
I just thought I remembered in TCOYF she was relating a story that when she moved, she was stressed enough to push her O until almost a week after she expected it. And I can't remember much on the anov cycles.
You won't know if a cycle is anov until it's over. Until then, you have to assume you are potentially fertile whenever you have any CF other than your BIP. I think you can consider yourself safe every other day after you've had 4 consecutive days of complete CF dry up. But, if you start to get any CF again, you have to consider yourself potentially fertile again. The latest I have ever Oed was cd45 so it can happen. With ds2, I got pg from a cd30 or 32 O. That was fun when trying to explain to docs that I was only 5w pg when they kept saying I was 7-8w pg.
onetwoten's Avatar onetwoten 08:01 PM 05-30-2010
I think many of us have problems thinking of it in terms fo "anything can happen" even though it is definately true, because we're spoiled with such absolutely normal charts. Like for me, even before temping, I know that literally since I started getting AF, I'd never had a cycle longer than 30 days. Obviously, AF coming "on time" is all relative to when you o'ed, but when you are soooo used to it being like clockwork, they really start to seem like the same thing, kwim? So if you're on say cd22 and haven't o'ed yet, then your mind automatically goes to "Ok, this is a wonky cycle, but it'll be over soon, and then I'll start fresh next month" even though obviously, it's still totally possible to o at that point.

I look at some of you guys' charts, and I feel soo thankful that mine is so textbook and predictable, but I think in cases like this, as you pointed out, MW, it can also be a little dangerous, because you get very settled into your pattern, and sometimes forget the 'rules'. Then we risk becoming like *gulp* most of our sex ed and health classes, that just told us point blank that a cycle is 28 days, and you ovulate halfway through, no if's ands or buts. After charting, we start realizing that's often not the case, but it's hard not to slip back into the mindset of "well I'll get AF on day 27, (ie 28, or 29 etc) just because that's when it always comes."

Kinda feel like I'm rambling now, but hopefully the gist of it got through.

ps. MW, mine stopped sending my notification emails too, and I couldn't figure out why. How weird.
hippy mum's Avatar hippy mum 08:24 PM 05-30-2010
lol. I had a fun time trying to get the nurse at my mw to get that I couldn't have conceived according to their chart, because dh and I hadn't bd at the "appropriate time"
MarineWife's Avatar MarineWife 08:48 PM 05-30-2010
JJ ~ I'm the opposite. Because my cycles are usually so long and irregular, I never look at a certain CD and expect . Without charting and knowing when I O, I'd never know when might show. Most women do have regular cycles, I think, so it's understandable to expect certain things at certain times. When charting, though, it's good to keep in mind that you can't even consider when might show until after you have confirmed O. Maybe that way it wouldn't be so difficult if she doesn't show at cd30 like she had for the past 3 years.
BarefootScientist's Avatar BarefootScientist 09:53 PM 05-30-2010
MW, I too consider AF to be due 12-14 days after O instead of a certain CD because my cycles vary enough. But I also get what BBM was saying because I have noticed that when I have anovulatory cycles, I often get bleeding around the time I would have expected AF if I'd had a normal cycle. I don't really know why, but that's how it generally works for me.
lyterae's Avatar lyterae 10:06 PM 05-30-2010
MW : I don't get notification emails anymore either... Not sure why

My hormones have gone all crazy this month, my cycles are normally somewhere between 30-32 days long, so it being CD37 with no ovulation is really throwing things off. I have no fertile CM, I never rely on cervix position because it's thrown me before. I am bloated, and crampy and just feel "off". I'm not wearing my wedding ring today because the bloating is so bad. What the heck? I was hoping that the obvious hormonal changes meant that I'd O soon, but this has been going on for a couple of days now. I don't have any acne (I normally breakout prior to O).
onetwoten's Avatar onetwoten 10:50 PM 05-30-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
MW, I too consider AF to be due 12-14 days after O instead of a certain CD because my cycles vary enough. But I also get what BBM was saying because I have noticed that when I have anovulatory cycles, I often get bleeding around the time I would have expected AF if I'd had a normal cycle. I don't really know why, but that's how it generally works for me.
Oh definately, I mean I look at AF being due based on dpo now too, and I know that say usual for me is 12dpo, as opposed to it used to just be cd27. I'm just saying that for those of us with basically clockwork cycles, "AF due to 12dpo" and "AF due to it being cd27" end up really... being the same thing. So when it's different than this for whatever reason... even though in your head you know that's totally possible, and normal, and healthy, etc etc etc... it still kind of throws you for a loop because you get so used to those patterns.

However- obviously as we all know-- that's the big difference in effectiveness between rhythm method and actual FAM/NFP, and why it's so important that even when it makes our brains twitch, we neeeeed to remember that our cycles are independant each month. Just because CD27 usually means AF, doesn't mean squat if we haven't gotten the temp shift yet, but something in your head still kinda goes "yeah.... but I alllllways get it on CD27." Like even for instance... it's totally normal, and almost expected for women to have annovulatory cycles, right? I thought I remember seeing on one of our recent threads someone said twice a year on average or something like that? Can't remember exactly. Anyways, so I know that I've probably had at least one or two in the past 10 years. But I've still never had a cycle longer than 30 days. So that doesn't mean it's impossible for me to have a 40 day annovulatory cycle, or even a cycle with O on say CD30, but because it's never happened before... it seeeeeeems like that means it won't, and so you kind of discount the theory, even though I know better.

Ugh. It's hard to be eloquent on 3 hours sleep.
MarineWife's Avatar MarineWife 11:15 PM 05-30-2010
TCOYF says it's normal for every woman to have one anov cycle per year. I don't think that means that every woman necessarily have one, just that it's not abnormal. Some women have regular cycles and never O or only O sporadically. That's one reason why charting can be helpful when TTC. If you haven't been able to get pg in spite of regular cycles and regular sex and start charting, you may find you aren't Oing regularly.
Mummoth's Avatar Mummoth 11:46 PM 05-30-2010
It's telling me I ovulated, and I have no idea why! My chart. I thought I was supposed to draw a line (baseline?) across the chart once my temperature went up and stayed up? I really don't think I ovulated.
annie2186's Avatar annie2186 12:18 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mummoth View Post
It's telling me I ovulated, and I have no idea why! My chart. I thought I was supposed to draw a line (baseline?) across the chart once my temperature went up and stayed up? I really don't think I ovulated.
To me that does not look like an ovulatory chart at all.....however, the whole C instead of F is kind of throwing me off too.

I am sure some one of the other knowledgable ladies on here will be able to tell you WHY it isn't and/or why the compuer S/W thinks it is.

AFM - 10 or 11 DPO, just waiting for
annie2186's Avatar annie2186 12:20 AM 05-31-2010
and by C I mean celsius and F I mean farenheit
MarineWife's Avatar MarineWife 12:24 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mummoth View Post
It's telling me I ovulated, and I have no idea why! My chart. I thought I was supposed to draw a line (baseline?) across the chart once my temperature went up and stayed up? I really don't think I ovulated.
I'm not familiar with that s/w at all so I can't figure out why it would say you Oed. I'm assuming it's the day that's blocked. Your temps definitely do not show O.
MovingMomma's Avatar MovingMomma 12:43 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mummoth View Post
It's telling me I ovulated, and I have no idea why! My chart.
Erm, I think the software is relying on CM. But it's horribly, horribly, wrong.
fresh_veggie's Avatar fresh_veggie 01:57 AM 05-31-2010
I learn so much reading y'alls comments! I don't have a lot to contribute yet.

Today I randomly got af 4 days early - meaning, my lp jumped from 16 to 12. Yes, it's a real af with lots of cramping and flow. The funny thing is, I agree with the o date that I've gotten on ALL my charts. Also, my cl this past cycle jumped .6 degrees F (I only have one other chart to really go off of, as a Plan B previously messed up my other ones and I can't trust them).

Everything I've read about a variance of lp just says that O date may be miscalculated. I have a pretty textbook temp shift, though, and a miscalculation looks pretty impossible. Can someone take a look at my past few charts? Tell me what they think? What else could cause this?

Tia http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/288d98
kcroto42's Avatar kcroto42 08:35 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
BTW, you cannot consider creamy your BIP. A BIP can only be either dry or sticky. Creamy is wet and can be the most fertile CF some women get. You can get pg relatively easily with only creamy CF. The last creamy day can be your peak day even if it's after having watery/ewcf if you have it before the thermal shift. Do you have days after cd14 when you had creamy CF? If so, what happens when you fill that in? I think the reason your crosshairs are dashed is because the CF data you have doesn't match up and you are missing a lot.
Yeah, I get that it's considered transitional CF, and I don't consider myself to be safe when I have creamy CF. I don't use the "dry day" rule at all because of this, and I don't consider that we are safe until I've confirmed O with a temp shift.

I wasn't paying attention to my CF before I was on combined BC pills, but when I went off those after college, I had weeks and weeks of watery and EWCF at a time, so copiously that I was constantly chapped and sore. It was awful. I had to change my underpants like three times a day. It resolved after about 6 months, and I've always been "wetter" since then. So, no idea what the stupid pills did to me, but there we are.

I'm disgustingly pleased that I seem to have figured this out...right in time to try and get myself knocked up. /sigh. Oh well, I'll manage...
RaraAvis's Avatar RaraAvis 08:48 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingMomma View Post
Erm, I think the software is relying on CM. But it's horribly, horribly, wrong.


Well, what a week. DH and I have decided we can't really trust any of the temps once I started getting sick. It has just been too crazy. (My LP temps are usually between 97 and 98 -- and close to 98 is pretty rare)

My Ovulation Chart

I put in the day I think I o'd just for counting down until purposes.

Hope everyone has a nice holiday weekend!
AnnieA's Avatar AnnieA 10:16 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by annie2186 View Post
See - I'm not sure how everyone else feels, but to me I don't mind why or how much people are CTA on this group.

As long as no one gets ATTACKED for maybe not being thrilled with the prospect of another pregnancy and gets legit help with figuring out their cycles and being as cautious as they choose.

I don't even know if that makes sense! For example, I wouldn't mind AnnieA, MW or MM sticking around even if they were pregnant if they were still helping all of us figure out our crazy charts

That's just how I feel I don't see how someone else hoping for an oops puts a bad omen on ME not wanting an oops AT ALL or vice versa
Annie, that's so sweet! If I ever get preggo, I definitely will still come back here and chime in when I have something to contribute!
AnnieA's Avatar AnnieA 10:20 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaraAvis View Post


Well, what a week. DH and I have decided we can't really trust any of the temps once I started getting sick. It has just been too crazy. (My LP temps are usually between 97 and 98 -- and close to 98 is pretty rare)

My Ovulation Chart

I put in the day I think I o'd just for counting down until purposes.

Hope everyone has a nice holiday weekend!
I totally understand how you feel. Getting sick right around O-time and then running a low grade fever for so many days during my last LP was just madness. I talked to my NFP instructor who runs the NFP program at our church and she said that in instances like that, I should just rely on my CF interpretation and use the mucus-patch rule if necessary. Since I my CF dried up right around when I got a "temp shift" then I could consider myself safe on the evening of the fourth dry day.
AnnieA's Avatar AnnieA 10:22 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
I'm not familiar with that s/w at all so I can't figure out why it would say you Oed. I'm assuming it's the day that's blocked. Your temps definitely do not show O.
Mummoth, I agree w/MW. Your temps do not show ovulation yet.
AnnieA's Avatar AnnieA 10:23 AM 05-31-2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by fresh_veggie View Post
I learn so much reading y'alls comments! I don't have a lot to contribute yet.

Today I randomly got af 4 days early - meaning, my lp jumped from 16 to 12. Yes, it's a real af with lots of cramping and flow. The funny thing is, I agree with the o date that I've gotten on ALL my charts. Also, my cl this past cycle jumped .6 degrees F (I only have one other chart to really go off of, as a Plan B previously messed up my other ones and I can't trust them).

Everything I've read about a variance of lp just says that O date may be miscalculated. I have a pretty textbook temp shift, though, and a miscalculation looks pretty impossible. Can someone take a look at my past few charts? Tell me what they think? What else could cause this?

Tia http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/288d98
How many charts do you have that showed a 16 day LP?
Baby_Cakes's Avatar Baby_Cakes 10:26 AM 05-31-2010
I want to tell DH we're safe this week, but for some reason I'm hesitant. FF isn't giving me a DPO count, and CF is either sticky OR creamy on and off. But, I've got 7 high temps, so that should count for something, right? Why hasn't FF given me a DPO count?

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