The August CTA/Fertility Awareness Thread - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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FF is totally confusing me this month. I always have my temp shift on cd 17 or 18, but this month it says it was on cd 12. I thought it was maybe around cd 15 or later for some reason. Anyone care to give their input?
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/2ab1c6

I'm trying to figure out what's going on with my body because the last 2-3 days I'm suddenly super tired and my nipples hurt SO BAD when BFing. Thought I could have thrush but I don't see any white film on them or in DD's mouth. Dunno if it'd be too early to get any pregnancy signs, if I did O on CD 12 then I'm 9 days past O, so I dunno. We dtd on CD8 so pregnancy is possible if I O'ed early.
I just wanted to chime in that my nips always get very tender and I get so frustrated/creepy crawly nursing DD during/after O, as well. And my supply drops a ton during AF. So that leaves like 2 days a month that I can actually enjoy nursing dd. LOL.

Anyway, I hate to sound like a broken record but yeah, that temp shift is pretty darn clear...but the EW after O is a little weird. And I think pee is ok out of the fridge for up to 12 hrs, but after that it should be chilled. And 9dpo is mad early to test, so you might want to pick up a few $trees if you want to be sure.

I promise I'll update the main post soon, ladies, I'm sorry I'm behind!! You know how it is w/a toddler always trying to climb on your lap as you type!

Carrie SAHM to Nora Caitlyn (5) and Finnley Dax (2) homebirthing, breastfeeding, babywearing, intactivist, doula mama!         
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#62 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 07:58 PM
 
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but the EW after O is a little weird.
Not at all, actually. According to TAoNFP, Peak day can be anywhere from 3 days before to 3 days after O, in a rough bell curve with Peak and O coinciding about 37% of the time.

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#63 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 08:26 PM
 
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I had to do a 3 day urine collection a few years ago, and they said to keep it in the fridge. It felt pretty gross seeing it sitting there beside the milk.

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#64 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 09:28 PM
 
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Not at all, actually. According to TAoNFP, Peak day can be anywhere from 3 days before to 3 days after O, in a rough bell curve with Peak and O coinciding about 37% of the time.
So then FF could actually be correct in my O day.

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#65 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 09:55 PM
 
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Well BabyCaked - 9dpo is early enough to give you a headache squinting (and of course I got like 5 tests!!)

There is definitely a line there........on two tests I'm actually totally fine with it......just a little overwhelmed!!!! I always wanted at least four (and this is really only bio#3 for me).

So yeah - it was totally user error and the reasons are as follows:

1 DTD without waiting until end of the day every other day.
2. I am Catholic and I leave it up to my husband for b/c and he figured it was waaaay to early for me to O (even though I told him otherwise )

I will keep you guys updated as the lines get darker and it sinks in a little bit more :P

So yeah - it will

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#66 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 09:57 PM
 
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I hate posting on a mobile device!!!! Sorry for all the typos above!

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#67 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OMG!

Congratulations! (And post a pic if you can!)

So happy for you - even if it was a bit of a surprise! H&H 9 months!!

Carrie SAHM to Nora Caitlyn (5) and Finnley Dax (2) homebirthing, breastfeeding, babywearing, intactivist, doula mama!         
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#68 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 10:19 PM
 
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Melissa: Welcome!

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#69 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh - and the thread should be updated to here. If I missed you, I'm sorry, please let me know and I'll move you to where you need to be or add your chart link. Thanks for being patient!

Carrie SAHM to Nora Caitlyn (5) and Finnley Dax (2) homebirthing, breastfeeding, babywearing, intactivist, doula mama!         
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#70 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 10:25 PM
 
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Annie: Congrats! I looked back through the thread, but I couldn't find it...when was your last BD? CD 14? If you were calling the shots instead of DH, when would you have quit?

(And WTH? is everyone getting pg??)

-Shannon, momma to H reading.gif 8/03, N heartbeat.gif 9/06, & P homebirth.jpg 8/11, missing S brokenheart.gif born at 11 wks 1/09 

 


 
   

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#71 of 318 Old 08-07-2010, 11:26 PM
 
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Hi, I'm new and just about to start charting DS2 is 11 weeks old and DS1 is 2. We got pregnant with DS2 after only 2 periods and it was a surprise. I am hoping to CTA for at least 2 years, and I hope that breastfeeding will help. (what's with all the pregnancies, is this really going to work for me? Don't get me wrong, I am really truly happy for all of you, but I'm also a little scared for myself. I really don't want to get pregnant again for a while.)

Can someone please send me a link where I can get more information. I know I need to buy/check out TCOYF, but in the meantime is there someplace that I can learn about CF and how to check CP? Also, do I need some kind of special thermometer or will any oral thermometer work? Does it get messed up becuase I'm night nursing and sometimes cosleeping?

OK, last question - I really seem to only be interested in BD when ovulating, but that's when I'm supposed to abstain to avoid getting pregnant (duh), anyone else in this situation and what do you do? use a back up method like condoms?

What's the best way to chart - paper so I can write it down when I'm in the bathroom or online so I can share it with all of you? I online, what's the best software/website to use?

TIA!
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#72 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi, I'm new and just about to start charting DS2 is 11 weeks old and DS1 is 2. We got pregnant with DS2 after only 2 periods and it was a surprise. I am hoping to CTA for at least 2 years, and I hope that breastfeeding will help. (what's with all the pregnancies, is this really going to work for me? Don't get me wrong, I am really truly happy for all of you, but I'm also a little scared for myself. I really don't want to get pregnant again for a while.)

Can someone please send me a link where I can get more information. I know I need to buy/check out TCOYF, but in the meantime is there someplace that I can learn about CF and how to check CP? Also, do I need some kind of special thermometer or will any oral thermometer work? Does it get messed up becuase I'm night nursing and sometimes cosleeping?

OK, last question - I really seem to only be interested in BD when ovulating, but that's when I'm supposed to abstain to avoid getting pregnant (duh), anyone else in this situation and what do you do? use a back up method like condoms?

What's the best way to chart - paper so I can write it down when I'm in the bathroom or online so I can share it with all of you? I online, what's the best software/website to use?

TIA!
Hi Lisa!
First off, if you read through and strictly follow the rules outlined in the first post, and if you chart using FAM described in TCOYF, CTA is a great way to prevent pregnancy. I would say most of the pgs that have happened over the past few weeks (I know it seems like a lot) are user failure, not method failure.

You can check out www.fertilityfriend.com for a quick lesson on charting. You can also enter your temps in on that site to keep your chart for you. Be sure you really understand how a coverline is drawn and how to chart before completely relying on this software, though. It can sometimes be confusing and hard to figure out -- which is also what this thread is for! We are always here to help you look at your chart to figure out what is going on.

A basal body thermometer (a bbt) is going to be your best friend for charting. You want to take your temp at the same time every day BEFORE you get up and start moving around. Keeping it in the bathroom won't work. You need to keep it bedside, or someplace like under your pillow so that you have it right when you wake up.

Most of us who are CTA use a barrier method or withdrawl when dtd during fertile times.

HTH! Please, feel free to ask any questions you have! Welcome!

Carrie SAHM to Nora Caitlyn (5) and Finnley Dax (2) homebirthing, breastfeeding, babywearing, intactivist, doula mama!         
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#73 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 01:46 AM
 
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Hi Lisa!
First off, if you read through and strictly follow the rules outlined in the first post, and if you chart using FAM described in TCOYF, CTA is a great way to prevent pregnancy. I would say most of the pgs that have happened over the past few weeks (I know it seems like a lot) are user failure, not method failure.

You can check out www.fertilityfriend.com for a quick lesson on charting. You can also enter your temps in on that site to keep your chart for you. Be sure you really understand how a coverline is drawn and how to chart before completely relying on this software, though. It can sometimes be confusing and hard to figure out -- which is also what this thread is for! We are always here to help you look at your chart to figure out what is going on.

A basal body thermometer (a bbt) is going to be your best friend for charting. You want to take your temp at the same time every day BEFORE you get up and start moving around. Keeping it in the bathroom won't work. You need to keep it bedside, or someplace like under your pillow so that you have it right when you wake up.

Most of us who are CTA use a barrier method or withdrawl when dtd during fertile times.

HTH! Please, feel free to ask any questions you have! Welcome!
THIS - and, if you are really wanting to avoid (once you get your cycles back) don't DTD without protection (or at all, depending on what you want) until you have confirmed O!

I'm forgeting know - but I think you said you babe was really young - I would look into LAM (just google it) for at least the first six months...........makes things alot easier!

Also - alot of the ladies on here actually DECIDED to stop preventing/start trying, etc.............I think I am the only one in a few months who was trying to avoid

Good luck! It is definitely possible and as effective as YOU make it Following all the rules will help

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#74 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 01:52 AM
 
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Annie: Congrats! I looked back through the thread, but I couldn't find it...when was your last BD? CD 14? If you were calling the shots instead of DH, when would you have quit?

(And WTH? is everyone getting pg??)
My last BD (he he, BD - like for real!!) was the morning of CD13 (once again, NOT following the rules!!!)

I'm not really sure when I would have stopped if I was calling the shots, but I was definitely not comfortable doing it that day............I was just having a moral delema - having just come home from church and all

Would anyone look at my chart and tell me when you think I O'd? I filled in my CM data to the best of my ability.........I know FORSURE I was wet up until CD15 and the temp spike followed with the dryup on CD16 was making me think I O'd...............then it went down and up again, but I never really had any other CM.....

http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/26af7e


Just kind of wondering - I'm sure its a girl again.............oh well, he TOTALLY deserves another girl

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#75 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 08:59 AM
 
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Melissa ~ Welcome and I'm sorry for your loss.

annie ~ I'd say somewhere from cd14-16. Congratulations!

Lisa ~ If it makes you feel any better, I think there have only been 3 pgs in the last 2-3 months among those who were CTA and both of those were user error.

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#76 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 11:12 AM
 
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MW- Thanks for explaining how triphasic works, that makes way more sense now. I don't remember your normal pattern, you have really long cycles though right? Guess the Maca's working. I started taking it last week too

Annie: OMG congratulations! It is really insane that so many people are pg all of a sudden!

I did POAS this morning and it came out negative. I got a new brand of tests cuz they were out of the EPT. It was first response, claims they can detect pg up to 6 days before your missed period. My LP is normally 13 days so I guess I should be expecting AF in about 4 days. I'll test again in a few days. Not sure how accurate it was to test this early.

My temp was still up in triphasic range today:
http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/2ab1c6
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#77 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 12:32 PM
 
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I don't remember your normal pattern, you have really long cycles though right?
When I was not on meds and I was in a cycle after a regular O cycle, my average O was around cd27-30. So, yeah, long cycles. I normally wouldn't O until most docs would think I was already 4w pg.

I have Oed earlier than that when taking metformin (cd15 was the earliest) and after an anov cycle (cd11 the earliest). The 2 cycles before this one that I was taking the maca my O days were cd20 and cd22, so significantly earlier than before taking the maca and without any other meds. I think this cycle was technically my 3rd full cycle taking the maca regularly, which is how long I've read you should give it before expecting the full effects.

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I did POAS this morning and it came out negative. I got a new brand of tests cuz they were out of the EPT. It was first response, claims they can detect pg up to 6 days before your missed period. My LP is normally 13 days so I guess I should be expecting AF in about 4 days. I'll test again in a few days. Not sure how accurate it was to test this early.
FRER are much more sensitive than EPT. FRER claims that in one study 68% of women got a bfp 6 days before was late. The thing to remember about the 6 days before is late thing is that that is assuming a 14 day lp. That means it's 6 days before 15dpo, which is 9dpo. So, it's most likely accurate at this point but it could be a false negative.

And, OMG! Here's what I just read on the side of the box. (probably not a direct quote) Because the test detects such low levels of hcg it is possible to get a + even if you aren't pg. This is more likely for women who are close to and over 40. That's me, y'all. Could actually not be pg? I've gotten several bfps on my ICs, too, but they are at least as sensitive if not more than FRER. The lines are getting darker so I guess that means more likely +?

(I'm going to post that in a few other places and see what kind of response I get.)

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#78 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 12:45 PM
 
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Sorry for continuing to bother you all about this but you are my experts. I put an ovulation day poll on my homepage. If you have time, I'd really appreciate it if you voted. Thanks.


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#79 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 01:06 PM
 
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And, OMG! Here's what I just read on the side of the box. (probably not a direct quote) Because the test detects such low levels of hcg it is possible to get a + even if you aren't pg. This is more likely for women who are close to and over 40. That's me, y'all. Could actually not be pg? I've gotten several bfps on my ICs, too, but they are at least as sensitive if not more than FRER. The lines are getting darker so I guess that means more likely +?

(I'm going to post that in a few other places and see what kind of response I get.)
hummmm, well if that were true in your case, why would you have gone from testing negative from positive right at 6 dpo? Seems like you would have gotten + all along, and they wouldn't be getting darker.

But I don't really understand the mechanism of the increased likelihood of false +. I wonder if you can contact the company and find out what causes them.
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#80 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 01:18 PM
 
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I thought it was probably a decently accurate indicator at this point, but my boobs are still killing me ( I never get that in my normal cycles) and for the 4th day in a row I feel exhausted, dizzy, and nauseous... with DD I was super sick the whole 9 months and got intense sickness before I even missed AF. I really feel pg, and after talking about it w/ DH we really wouldn't mind if I am. I just want to know for sure whether I am or not.
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#81 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 02:19 PM
 
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hummmm, well if that were true in your case, why would you have gone from testing negative from positive right at 6 dpo? Seems like you would have gotten + all along, and they wouldn't be getting darker.
Well, I was getting very, very faint, what I thought were evap lines on the ICs from the day I started testing, 5dpo from a cd13 O. They did get darker every day and I didn't consider it a real line until cd24, 11dpo from a cd13 O. If I can I'm going to try a digital test.

They say a woman can have up 4 mIU of hcg in her body all the time. Anything above 20 is considered + but anything from 5-19 is considered questionable. I guess maybe older women might produce more hcg even when not pg.

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#82 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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They say a woman can have up 4 mIU of hcg in her body all the time. Anything above 20 is considered + but anything from 5-19 is considered questionable. I guess maybe older women might produce more hcg even when not pg.
Wouldn't a woman carrying extra hcg in her system always get faint positives on hpts then? And you've gotten negs before, even this cycle. I know, it's not very reassuring, either way. Just breathe! You can do this.

AFM - I know I need a few more high temps to confirm O, but I want to make sure I'm doing this right. Would my CL be 97.2 and my CH's at CD14?

chart link

Thanks guys!

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#83 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 07:58 PM
 
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That does look like possible O, Carrie. I'm going to address your other comment in the other thread, if I haven't already.

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#84 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 08:00 PM
 
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Hi there! I know its been so long since I've posted on here so I thought I would just give you all an update. Its not much of an update but here it is. Hope you all are doing well.

So, heres a small update on me:

So, I still dont have a prospect " TTC date" in mind, but I did have a small talk about it the other day with DH. It hit so close to my heart, that I started to cry . At first he explained that he really wasnt sure he wanted another baby, and especially not right now. Didnt know if he can handle another one, etc. I told him I wanted him to be honest with me about it, and tell me exactly how he feels. I told him that I needed to know either way. When he told me he didnt know if he wanted another baby, I told him that I was glad he told me that. However, I also told him that I dont know if I can live with myself if I dont ever have anymore children. I told him that even though I knew all of this when we were married, that I really didnt think that hard and long about it at the time, and just figured the down the road things would just work out. We talked alot about finances, goals, plans to pay off debt, to open a retirement account for him, etc. We talked about his race car and how I want to be supportive, and a part of it, etc. The reason we got on the baby subject again is because I asked him when he says "maybe in a year". what specially that means?? I told him I didnt want a year to come and go and him say "oh well maybe next year". So, thats kinda how it started, while on the phone with him when he was driving home from work, and then we finished it up as he walked in the door. I told him that was fine if he truly didnt want anymore kids but that I needed to know the truth. He basically, said "if I could KNOW I would have another boy, i'd have another one". and...."if we have another one, it would be because its what you really want". I told him well thats not right, that I want him to want it too, or I dont want to have another one. In the end [cause I had to go to work]. He had said hes been thinking alot more about it lately. And, I asked him if we could compromise and start TTW when DS turns 3, which is about 6 months away...vs a year, which is what he said originally. He asked me how far apart the neighbors kids were [we are pretty close with their family] and I told him that the older son was 3 mos. shy of 4 years old when the younger one was born. And, then I flat out said, that would mean we would need to get pregnant around the time DS turns 3 years old. He really didnt say anything about it. So, we left it at that. I totally know how he feels now. He totally knows how I feel. I guess now Im just going to let it go for a while. However, he did say to our son yesterday something like "mommy & I were going to go in the room and try and make another one of you". However, when it came time to DTD, and we were in the middle of it, I joked with him and said "I thought you told DS we were gonna make another one of him....lol"..and he's like "yeah, but not this time" or "not tonight"..or something along those lines. I thought that was kinda funny. So, we'll see if he starts to loosen up a bit about pulling out or not. I even told him last night that we couldnt "make another one of him if we wanted to last night cause I wasnt fertile yet"....lol.

So, still not time frame and no idea if or when we will ever have another baby. I mean, what would that make you think if your hubby told you what mine did? with that,I don't think I should bring it up again for 6 months. I mean, what else can I do, really. I dont have any other options, do i?? If things havent changed by then [meaning if he is still pulling out all the time by then, and/or not brining it up and/or not talking about it at all] I think 6 months is a lot of time. For both him to think about it, and to see how much DS will have grown up by then. Hopefully he will be just about completely potty trained by then. And, then if by the time DS is 3 years old, he STILL hasnt budged a bit with "when" he'll be ready or what not, then I dont know. Then, he either has to tell me he definately doesnt want anymore kids, or I just have to be happy and content with the one I have and hope that maybe one day he'll decide otherwise. OR, decide that I want another baby more than my marriage, which im totally not sure of at this moment. So, right now Im just going to enjoy our son, keep working out, work extra to try and save any amount of money that I can. and, try to have more date nights with hubby.

So, that is where we stand. What does everyone else think about this? Any suggestions, advice? Am I doing the right thing? anything I can do different? Please, suggestions, advice, opinions are always welcomed!!!

Thanks for listening!!!
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#85 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 08:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommyin2008 View Post
So, that is where we stand. What does everyone else think about this? Any suggestions, advice? Am I doing the right thing? anything I can do different? Please, suggestions, advice, opinions are always welcomed!!!
I can tell you my experience with this. When dh and I first got married I wanted 2 more kids and he only wanted 1 more. He had this ideal family image of 2 kids. After we had ds2 and he tried to make us done I just told him that I would not accept that. I wanted another baby and that was that. I know a lot of people think that's wrong but I'm not one to give up what I want for another person. My dh knows the kind of person I am. He chose to marry me. So, not my problem. He finally agreed to try for one more and I agreed that would be it. I honestly didn't think I'd want any more kids after that.

That didn't exactly work out, though. I don't know if it's because I had another boy and realized that I really want a girl or because I just love being pg and new babies so much that I can't imagine not at least leaving the option open or because I don't know what else to do with myself right now other than have babies. All I know is that I was/am not ready to completely shut the door on the possibility yet.

DH and I had a talk. He suggested getting a vasectomy and I basically forbid him. I really think that if he had done that without my consent and support I would have left him. After a lot of discussion he agreed to use withdrawal. I told him exactly how I felt. I want another baby so it's his responsibility to avoid if that's what he wants. I do not offer him info about where I am in my cycle, whether or not I'm fertile. If he wants to know, he can ask or he can look at my chart. He hears me taking my temp and sees me entering data into my chart every. Of course, he always has the option to withdraw every time so he doesn't have to worry about it. I'm not going to remind him, though. Since I have been completely honest with him I don't see it as my responsibility to make sure he follows through with what he says he wants to do. He's a mature, grown male who can do that for himself. So that was that.

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#86 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 09:36 PM
 
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Lisa, welcome. As far as what to do when you're really horny during your O time...Oral? That's what I'm thinking anyway. Is that TMI? Sorry if so. I'm not a fan of abc, so I think that's just what we're gonna do--avoid and if we get desperate find others ways to make each happy, lol.

AFM--cd23, and I think my body is gearing up to O. The mucus is starting, and I'm expecting O sometime between CD 27-30, if my pattern from last ppaf holds true. So, since we're in the fertile phase, we're abstaining right now.

Mama to two lovely boys and a new baby due mid-May 2011
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#87 of 318 Old 08-08-2010, 10:02 PM
 
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Well, aside from feeling really dizzy and super exhausted today, I got a tiny, tiny bit of spotting... I want to test again tomorrow but I guess it'd be more accurate if I wait a few days. It's gonna be hard though. Now that it's settled in, I think I'd be pretty sad if I wasn't pg, even though the timing is awful.
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#88 of 318 Old 08-09-2010, 06:59 AM
 
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Smyling ~ Do you have a chart? How many dpo are you?

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

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#89 of 318 Old 08-09-2010, 07:23 AM
 
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annie - Congrats and I would go for a CD 14 or 15 O on your chart.

I remember reading somewhere that chilled urine didn't work with hpts. Don't know, that might be something to check into.

Lisa, FAM works great IF you follow the rules. If you don't, you WILL get pregnant. You have to be committed to doing it and following the rules. I don't think I have ever seen a method failure on this thread (?), but yes, there are certainly user failures every now and then. And sometimes lots at once! Although...did I miss some pregnancies? Besides annie, and the other Annie a month or so back, who is there? I admit I haven't been keeping up the best. MW is pregnant, but she was definitely not avoiding. We have several people around (including me, and Babycakes who started the thread) who are actually no longer strictly avoiding but more like whatevering or even TTC but who still post here sometimes to help others out with their charts and keep up on what everyone is up to. One of the great things about FAM is that you can decide, on a cycle-by-cycle or even day-by-day basis whether you want another pregnancy or not. I know a lot of couples just decide on the spur of the moment that they are ok with a pregnancy and BD during the fertile time. So they are no longer CTA, but CTC, ykwim? As for your backup question...I am no longer avoiding, but I used condoms during the fertile time, and I personally think that's the best way to go but a lot of women here abstain, or their husbands use withdrawal. You could also use any other barrier method (diaphragm, etc.). And I recommend charting on paper for a few cycles to begin with so you learn to interpret your charts yourself without being influenced by what fertility friend or whatever has to say. After that, fertility friend is great for sharing with others online, but continuing on with paper is also a good idea so you can do your own interpretation and customize your chart. Good luck!

MW, I have never heard that about women over 40 and hcg before! I am sure you are really pregnant, but maybe you should take a digital for peace of mind (I'm sure you will anyway, haha). I voted CD 14 on your poll.

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#90 of 318 Old 08-09-2010, 08:15 AM
 
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Here's what's on the front page:

"Wholewheatchick - Due in Dec. 2010
OsUvet - Due in Feb. 2011
Echospiritwarrior - Due in Feb. 2011
Lyterae - Due in Feb. 2011
Dex_Millie - Due in Feb. 2011
AnnieA - Due in March 2011
annie2186"

I think WWC was trying to get pg so she doesn't count. We had a rash of pgs with February due dates but Echo doesn't count. She had just started TTC. I can't remember if lyterae had moved to TTC or TTW. I think dex_millie was new and didn't really know what she was doing. Didn't she get pg pretty soon after she joined? I might be getting her mixed up with someone else. I can't remember what happened with OSUvet. AnnieA and annie are both user failures and they are due in different months. Didn't we have a rash of pgs last spring, too?

On the false + thing, I think I've got it figured out based on what others have told me. I think it is mostly referring to peri-menopausal and menopausal women who may have elevated hcg levels, up to 9 mIU. That could be detected by very sensitive tests. They could also be referring to chem pgs, but I wouldn't call those false +.

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