Your FAM/NFP "Big Fat Oops Babies": what was your mistake? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 36 Old 05-31-2011, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Mine: I had a fever the morning of the same day I was expecting ovulation (so my temp had spiked to what it usually did after ovulation).  A few days later, I knew I was taking a chance and that I should wait one more day to enter the safe zone, but I thought that the risk was so minuscule.

 

Minuscule indeed.


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#2 of 36 Old 05-31-2011, 11:56 AM
 
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Mistake #1:  assuming my ovulation couldn't possibly happen massively early one cycle and that sperm couldn't live for five days.  In other words, ds was conceived with 5 day old sperm on CD 13 when my average O day from over 2 years of charting was CD 20!!!  Had we followed  the rule of 20, I would have known that DTD was not safe past CD 6.

 

Mistake #2: assuming my LP was still too short to be fertile and that ovulation was not near b/c I had no fertile CF.  Basically I had only had one pp cycle, which was 59 days long, O on CD 55, 4 day LP.  My second cycle was shaping up to be long as well,  we DTD once and I O'd the next day with no fertile CF and some how my LP was long enough for implantation.   Even though it took my cycle over a year to regulate after my first, I should not have assumed the same would be true after my second.


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#3 of 36 Old 05-31-2011, 12:57 PM
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I haven't had any oops babies yet, but I'd love to see your oops charts if you have them!

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#4 of 36 Old 05-31-2011, 01:48 PM
 
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Is there any easy way to share old charts from FF, not just the current chart?


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#5 of 36 Old 05-31-2011, 02:34 PM
 
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Not realizing that sperm apparently can live a really long time! And, deciding to do it without a condom, because I was sure I wouldn't O for several days. I didn't O for several days but at least one of those little suckers was still alive. The one we can't imagine living without now though!

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#6 of 36 Old 05-31-2011, 02:43 PM
 
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Assuming that just because I hadn't had a "normal for me" cycle yet post-partum, I wouldn't have one that month--ie, up until then, I'd had 4 PP cycles and they all had a really late O and short LP.  Plus, I'd had about a week of increasingly fertile CM before O each time, so I thought I'd have plenty of warning.  Instead, I had 3 days of suddenly fertile CM, and O'd exactly 5 days after we DTD and am now excitedly looking forward to welcoming our "Oops" baby in 2 months!


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#7 of 36 Old 05-31-2011, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaimee View Post

Is there any easy way to share old charts from FF, not just the current chart?



screen shot?

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#8 of 36 Old 06-01-2011, 06:07 AM
 
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This is my mistake #1 chart (see above post for explanation).

 

April 2009 chart.png


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#9 of 36 Old 06-01-2011, 06:26 AM
 
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Mistake #2 chart (see above post for explanation)

 


Feb 2011 chart.png

 


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#10 of 36 Old 06-01-2011, 06:40 PM
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I can't see them, Jaimee.

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#11 of 36 Old 06-01-2011, 07:09 PM
 
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Ever since having DD1, she was almost 8 when I got pg with this last baby, I had delayed O. Never once in those years did I ever ovulate before day 20. Prior to having children I was a textbook day 14 ovulater. My LP would be all over the place, the length of the cycles varied drastically but the only thing I could count on was at least 15 worry free days. Ha! In order to have gotten pg this time I would of had to of ovulated within the first week of my cycle, basically when I was still having AF. 


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#12 of 36 Old 06-01-2011, 08:31 PM
 
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Bourbon. Lots of it.

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#13 of 36 Old 06-02-2011, 06:32 AM
 
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Dang!  Okay, how do I do a screen shot?  redface.gif


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#14 of 36 Old 06-02-2011, 08:47 AM
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That depends on your computer.  It looks like you tried copy/pasting it directly from your browser, and it copied it as a link that doesn't work.  You might click on your chart and try saving it as a picture, then click on the picture icon to "insert image" above the text box that you're typing in, and select your saved picture.

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#15 of 36 Old 06-02-2011, 08:53 AM
 
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Our "oops" happened because we took a chance on the morning of the second day of a temp rise. Turns out that temp rise was a fake because the next morning, I had the lowest temp I had had all cycle. So we basically DTD twice the day before O. shy.gif That pg sadly ended in a M/C but we went on to get pg with the little one that is currently kicking the top of my belly because I've been sitting for too long!

 

chartgraph_module.php.png


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#16 of 36 Old 06-02-2011, 08:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

That depends on your computer.  It looks like you tried copy/pasting it directly from your browser, and it copied it as a link that doesn't work.  You might click on your chart and try saving it as a picture, then click on the picture icon to "insert image" above the text box that you're typing in, and select your saved picture.



I right-clicked and saved as a pic and then inserted the image.


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#17 of 36 Old 06-02-2011, 01:17 PM
 
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Okay, I saved and inserted.  Let me know if you can see them now!  And I'd love to hear your thoughts on my O date for mistake #2... not sure I agree with FF.


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#18 of 36 Old 06-02-2011, 08:31 PM
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I can see them now, Jaimee.  Assuming mucus observations were done properly, both are technically method failure by CM-only NFP methods.  Baby 1 was the most common method failure in the sympto-thermal method (and the reason why there are multiple phase I rules: some women's bodies just don't give them enough warning before O'ing.), and Baby 2 was from user error according to the sympto-thermal method.

 

For #2, I would put O on or around Day 20 (Day 21 is first day of temp rise), but it was definitely BD on Day 19 that got you pregnant.  Once you have CM in a cycle, you cannot assume that you are infertile (except before your first PPAF and during some stages of perimenopause, though I admit I don't know enough about that) until you have had an adequate temperature rise.  Once you have any CM, you are in the fertile phase, and it is risky business to declare yourself not to be potentially fertile after that until you have clear signs of ovulation.

 

#1 is harder.  How many cycles did you have postpartum that you charted?  Your husband's sperm may or may not have actually been 5 days old.  CD 13 is only an estimate.  You could have O'ed as early as CS 10.  Your average O date means very little if you are prone to irregular cycles.  What was your earliest first day of temperature rise?  What was your shortest cycle length?  At the end of the April CTA thread and copied near the top of the May thread, you may have seen some other phase I rules that I gave for people who need a little more accuracy than the Last Dry Day Rule (the most common STM failure).  I would encourage anyone who has fewer than 3-6 months experience charting or has a history of mucus patches under 6 days to rely on a more strict rule than the Last Dry Day Rule.

 

When referring to previous history, don't look back more than 2 years.  What your cycles were like when you were a teenager doesn't mean much in your 30's.  Also note that after you have a baby, everything changes.  If you breastfeed ecologically, you may very well have not had any cycles in the last 2 years, and even if you don't you are much safer assuming that you don't have any history, and if you can't trust the Last Dry Day Rule, you shouldn't go past CD 6 until you have 6 cycles of history postpartum or until you are having fertile (adequate LP) cycles, whichever comes later, if there is a strong need to postpone pregnancy.

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#19 of 36 Old 06-02-2011, 08:58 PM
 
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Um, being lazy and discussing with DH that I didn't know exactly where I was on the chart, didn't feel like getting the chart, and hey, we want more kids eventually anyway, so let's just enjoy ourselves and whatever happens happens. "After all, it usually takes a coupla months of trying anyhow right?" He was going away on business shortly thereafter. Sometimes it only takes once! 


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#20 of 36 Old 06-03-2011, 05:34 AM
 
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Thank you for all the information!!  I've answered/responded below...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

 

For #2, I would put O on or around Day 20 (Day 21 is first day of temp rise), but it was definitely BD on Day 19 that got you pregnant. 

Well, considering this was the ONLY time we DTD that cycle, that part is obvious!   lol.gif

 

Once you have CM in a cycle, you cannot assume that you are infertile (except before your first PPAF and during some stages of perimenopause, though I admit I don't know enough about that) until you have had an adequate temperature rise.  Once you have any CM, you are in the fertile phase, and it is risky business to declare yourself not to be potentially fertile after that until you have clear signs of ovulation.

 

Yes, certainly I see this to be quite true now, but with that one day of EW followed by dry for a long time, I was shocked that I would O with no fertile CF.  I was waiting for another patch of EW and thinking this cycle would be long like the previous one (59 days with a 4 day LP).  I don't think I have ever O'd without at least creamy CF.

 

#1 is harder.  How many cycles did you have postpartum that you charted? 

I had charted 19 cycles!!

 

Your husband's sperm may or may not have actually been 5 days old.  CD 13 is only an estimate.  You could have O'ed as early as CS 10.  Your average O date means very little if you are prone to irregular cycles.  What was your earliest first day of temperature rise?  What was your shortest cycle length? 

O'ing on CD 10 would be a real shocker.  My earliest O was CD 16 and that same cycle was my shortest cycle with 26 days (my average LP is 10 days).  My average O day has not varied much over years of charting (taking out crazy irregular cycles postpartum where I O'd on CD 55 for example). 

 

...you shouldn't go past CD 6 until you have 6 cycles of history postpartum or until you are having fertile (adequate LP) cycles, whichever comes later, if there is a strong need to postpone pregnancy.

 

Yes, this would have prevented both mistakes.  Though, with #1, I did have adequate LP lengths and as I mentioned above, had 19 cycles charted.  I didn't know about the 20 day rule, but this would have prevented this oops.  With #2, I made the huge assumption that my second pp cycle could not have a fertile LP and that I wouldn't O without fertile CF... and DTD with impunity that one time.  Ordinarily I would never DTD on CD19 knowing I usually O around that time.   Sigh....



 


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#21 of 36 Old 06-03-2011, 07:09 AM
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Jaimee, for what it's worth, I could see myself getting pregnant in either of those situations, maybe less likely 2 since I would assume that I have no clue what is going on postpartum, so I would be careful just in case (coupled with my strong desire to not conceive a baby and then have a short LP), I probably would have avoided #2, but #1 was a method failure for the Last Dry Day Rule and the Doering Rule (my personal favorite).  Sure, it wasn't a failure for the 20 day rule or the Clinical Experience Rules (both having last day of Phase I on CD 6), but you're definitely a statistical outlier.

 

Also, before I seem to critical of the mucus only methods, I do know that Creighton at least has a much more systematic way of looking for and at CM that yields a higher effectiveness rate.  The Ovulation Method (Billings) has been tested to be about 96.6% effective (perfect use), and Creighton claims a 99% effectiveness, but people using the STM seem to have a higher failure rate (3-7%) using the Last Dry Day Rule even though it is theoretically the same thing.  I certainly don't want to claim that you were not making your observations correctly, but it's hard to tell if the techniques used in Creighton could have given just that little bit more effectiveness.

 

On the STM side of things, some people recommend making internal mucus and/or cervix observations as well, and some couples find this to be helpful in finding signs that their bodies are approaching fertility in cases where their external CM doesn't give them enough warning.

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#22 of 36 Old 06-03-2011, 10:15 AM
 
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Thanks for saying that JMJ!  shy.gif  I have to say I felt really stupid both times.  I've been charting for so long and fancied myself a bit of an expert (well not literally, but certainly proficient).  Everyone around me knows I chart and that we're type A people that plan everything so TWO oops babies just makes us look careless when in fact I was paying careful attention and following rules, but as you said I was an outlier the first time and the second time while a risk (obviously!!) didn't seem so risky at the time at all considering my charting history.  I have ABSOLUTELY learned my lesson this time and realize that for me, I need to follow much stricter rules despite having a long charting history.  Dh is leaning toward a vasectomy. I would love to feel as though we could do this naturally, but frankly we cannot afford another oops!   I was thinking stricter charting combined with liberal condom use and perhaps the CBFM, though I'm not sure about the latter... I'd need to do more research.  But the monitor could eliminate the confusion surrounding my CF during the postpartum period, giving me more warning  of impending attempts to O. Of course, I'm not sure if they would be far enough out warnings for my dh's apparently robust sperm!  lol.gif


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#23 of 36 Old 06-03-2011, 11:09 AM
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If I were in your position, Jaimee, I would consider (I'm not sure what I'd actually do, but I'd consider these):

 

-CBFM for before 1st PPAF (after 6 months of LAM if applicable and no history of an early return of fertility) - I'm not sure if I would rely on it after my 1st PPAF.  The evidence that I have seen is that it gives you enough warning when your body is trying to kick-start itself while breastfeeding, but in a normal cycle, you may not get enough warning, especially if your DH is known to have robust sperm.

 

-Ecological breastfeeding so that if for some reason I messed up on the return of fertility, there is at least a good amount of space between them (though ecological breastfeeding works very well for me with my first fertile cycle at 25 months postpartum)  (note: Ecological breastfeeding does not work with everyone's situation, and it's more about a parenting style than a birth control method, but I think it's beautiful how it all fits together.)

 

-Never assuming infertility past CD 6 if you are seriously avoiding pregnancy.  If you're not trying but wouldn't mind an oops, you know how to tell if you're probably infertile, but if it's really important, don't go past CD 6, and if you ever have a shorter cycle, reduce that more.  (If you really seriously need to not get pregnant, don't assume any Phase I infertility.)

 

-Looking into saliva microscopes... I don't know much about the effectiveness of these, but I do know that some people find them to be helpful.

 

-Making internal observations.  Considering you had EWCM immediately following BD after your first oops baby, it is possible that an internal observation would have given you that tiny bit more warning.

 

-Taking a class in Creighton.  They know more about CM than anybody and might be able to give you some pointers on judging the beginning of the fertile window that is better than I or any other STM person could tell you.  Just don't let them convince you to stop temping.  I know several people who used STM effectively for years, took Creighton classes to brush up on their knowledge (There are no STM classes offered in my area), stopped temping at the insistence of their instructor, and accidentally got pregnant.  A Creighton instructor likely won't be able to help you with temperature interpretations, but if there is anything to be learned about CM, that's where I'd go.

 

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#24 of 36 Old 06-03-2011, 11:23 AM
 
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All great tips, JMJ, thank you again.  I really appreciate being able to learn from someone with more knowledge!   We'll see what dh decides about the vasectomy. Otherwise, we'll probably have to just  go with assuming fertility from the end of AF until 4 days after my temp spike.  With my later O and short LP, this will likely only leave us with approximately 10 days we could have unprotected sex and 4 of those I will be on my period. Lovely.  Not to mention that I rarely feel like DTD unless I'm fertile. Of course.  lol.gif   It would be interesting to look into the CM, but honestly I'm not sure that we can trust anything about my cycles at this point expect after that egg is gone.   So I will definitely keep temping no matter what!


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#25 of 36 Old 06-09-2011, 03:24 PM
 
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got pregnant with sperm living for 6 days.  so I guess my mistake was thinking that 4-5 days would surely be enough.  But now I have a 2 week old daughter that I can't imagine living without :)  I have no idea what I'm going to do for BC now...


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#26 of 36 Old 06-10-2011, 02:46 AM
 
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My oldest daughter is from BD on CD14, with the temp rise on CD21, so a sperm that lived 6 or 7 days (perhaps the temp rise was delayed a little?). I don't recall having any CM the day of BD. It was a while ago, and I no longer have the chart, but I remember these facts absolutely.

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#27 of 36 Old 06-11-2011, 03:06 PM
 
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It's not unusual to have the temperature rise occur as much as two days after ovulation. 

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#28 of 36 Old 06-14-2011, 07:07 AM
 
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Job stress making me irregular plus wine and a fire (and a lot of oral) and making the mistake of dating a guy who wanted kids and marriage when I told him I was past that stage in life and he thought this would make me stuck with him.

Nope. Still happily a single mom. joy.gif

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#29 of 36 Old 06-14-2011, 11:43 AM
 
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source?  Never read this in any NFP how to's and rules
 

Quote:
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It's not unusual to have the temperature rise occur as much as two days after ovulation. 



 


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#30 of 36 Old 06-14-2011, 12:11 PM
 
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In the section of TCOYF on determining the length of the luteal phase it says, "If your thermal shift consistently occurs more than two days after the Peak Day, it probably means your body reacts slowly to the heat-inducing progesterone released after ovulation. In such a case, it may be more accurate to count the second day after the Peak as the first day of the luteal phase rather than waiting for a temperature shift." (p. 153 in the 10th anniversary ed.) So even though it isn't explicitly stated, it sounds like two days isn't tremendously unusual and it is possible for it to take even longer in some cases.

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