Discussion in Europe about vaccine mandates - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 61 Old 05-07-2017, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Discussion in Europe about vaccine mandates

http://www.efddgroup.eu/newsroom/sho...-be-compulsory
The question of freedom for medical practitioners is an interesting one. Do doctors have any business going against the consensus in the first place?
Quote:
Since I have serious doubts on the compatibility of this approach with doctors' right to medical freedom, I have submitted a question to the Commission on this topic. I am also requesting the executive to provide evidence attesting the real effectiveness of compulsory vaccination policies in increasing vaccination rates, if compared with the supportive vaccination strategies adopted by the majority of member states.
If on one hand the compulsory vaccination approach is considered a way to improve adherence to immunisation programmes, on the other hand many national programmes are effective even though they do not foresee any obligation.
Not only is there no significant difference in vaccine coverage among the countries that adopted a mandatory approach and those who favoured recommendation, but in some cases the latter also proved more effective.

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#2 of 61 Old 05-08-2017, 08:35 AM
 
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Not only is there no significant difference in vaccine coverage among the countries that adopted a mandatory approach and those who favoured recommendation, but in some cases the latter also proved more effective.
I'm not sure why the pharmaceutical companies - who drive policy - don't understand that concept.

I'm going to use the province I currently live in as an example. Vaccinations for school are not mandatory. But lately there has been talk about requiring them for school which is somewhat distressing; just somewhat distressing because exemptions would have to be offered since our constitution covers the right to refuse medical procedures.

Without any mandates, vaccine uptake rates for children were good and there wasn't much opposition to vaccines expressed in the various forms of media. Every now and then an article would pop up and I noticed the comments were prominently very pro-vax with very few commenters taking a different approach. But now that there is talk about requiring vaccines for school, the bulk of comments are coming from those that are opposed. And they are planting seeds in those sitting on the fence by linking to many studies and articles and documentaries outlining the problems with vaccines and vaccine mandates. The pro-vaxx policy pushers should have left it well alone. Now people who didn't question vaccinating their children are aware that not everyone is vaccinating their children. How do you think that will play out?

The best way to stimulate vaccine uptake rates is to pretend there are vaccine shortages like they do almost every flu season. Most people aren't interested in the flu shots until they are told they won't have access to any. Or that some other group - politicians or athletes - will have preferential access. NOW THAT gets people wanting those vaccines! Mandating vaccines has the opposite effect IMO.
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#3 of 61 Old 05-08-2017, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
I'm not sure why the pharmaceutical companies - who drive policy - don't understand that concept.

I'm going to use the province I currently live in as an example. Vaccinations for school are not mandatory. But lately there has been talk about requiring them for school which is somewhat distressing; just somewhat distressing because exemptions would have to be offered since our constitution covers the right to refuse medical procedures.

Without any mandates, vaccine uptake rates for children were good and there wasn't much opposition to vaccines expressed in the various forms of media. Every now and then an article would pop up and I noticed the comments were prominently very pro-vax with very few commenters taking a different approach. But now that there is talk about requiring vaccines for school, the bulk of comments are coming from those that are opposed. And they are planting seeds in those sitting on the fence by linking to many studies and articles and documentaries outlining the problems with vaccines and vaccine mandates. The pro-vaxx policy pushers should have left it well alone. Now people who didn't question vaccinating their children are aware that not everyone is vaccinating their children. How do you think that will play out?

The best way to stimulate vaccine uptake rates is to pretend there are vaccine shortages like they do almost every flu season. Most people aren't interested in the flu shots until they are told they won't have access to any. Or that some other group - politicians or athletes - will have preferential access. NOW THAT gets people wanting those vaccines! Mandating vaccines has the opposite effect IMO.
Yes, I find many of the actions of the vaccine pushers quite puzzling. I'm not sure they are actually rational actors. For one thing, since it probably isn't much of a conspiracy, just a bunch of people trying to cover their asses and/or protect profits, there aren't a bunch of people getting together in a room somewhere to quietly and rationally work out a strategy. Hard to steer a ship if you can't admit that you have any sort of goal in mind beyond max vax. And the vax pushers seem to have some doubts about where they want to go exactly, other than "snuffing out" the anti-vaccine people.
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#4 of 61 Old 05-11-2017, 12:51 PM
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Sweden weighs in

http://www.thenhf.se/riksdagen-rosta...accinmotioner/

I'm not sure what the very last paragraph means, exactly, but it's clear the citizens are voicing their opposition to mandates.

It appears the proposals were all turned down.

Quote:
NHF Sweden sent a letter to the Social Committee, declaring that it would violate our grounds if forced vaccination, or mandatory vaccination as stated in Arkelsten's exercise. Many others have also sent in letters and many have called Social Affairs and Parliamentary Policy. Riksdag politicians have certainly noticed that there is a massive resistance to all forms of coercion in terms of vaccination.
I used
https://translate.google.com/
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#5 of 61 Old 05-11-2017, 12:59 PM
 
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Sweden voted down mandatory vaccination!

Using google translate:

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Today, the Riksdag decided on the Social Committee's report 2016/17: SoU7, which contained a number of measures for public health. What prompted a large proportion of the population to monitor this particular case was that it contained several motions that would pave the way for both more vaccinations and forced vaccination. This was something that involved many, not just those who have opted for vaccine but also people who are vaccinated but who absolutely do not want to see any compulsion.NHF Sweden sent a letter to the Social Committee, declaring that it would violate our grounds if forced vaccination, or mandatory vaccination as stated in Arkelsten's exercise. Many others have also sent in letters and many have called Social Affairs and Parliamentary Policy. Riksdag politicians have certainly noticed that there is a massive resistance to all forms of coercion in terms of vaccination.
my bold
http://www.thenhf.se/riksdagen-rosta...accinmotioner/

WooHoo Sweden!
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#6 of 61 Old 05-11-2017, 01:02 PM
 
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Lol, @Bow

Posting at somewhat the same time.

Apologies for what is now a duplicate type post!
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#7 of 61 Old 05-11-2017, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Lol, @Bow

Posting at somewhat the same time.

Apologies for what is now a duplicate type post!
I'm very happy to get good news 3 times! I also just saw this on Facebook

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#8 of 61 Old 05-20-2017, 02:38 PM
 
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That news item about Sweden is noticeably absent from most major US news outlets. Not a surprise. That leaves it in a questionable status in some people's minds and it will not even cross the minds of others. Much like looking at the vaccine schedule of other nations and comparing it to the US.

Sweden's vaccine schedule - note the BCG and Hep B are for high risk, not everyone. And where is the rotavirus vaccine? Are Swedish babies dying of rotavirus without it?

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/...on-programmes/

Meanwhile, a little further South in Italy, and you will not hear about this in the US press either. http://m.dw.com/en/italy-makes-vacci...ren/a-38911682
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#9 of 61 Old 05-21-2017, 03:21 PM
 
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@semaxtics, just a minor tweak:
Quote:
Today, the Riksdag decided on the Social Committee's report 2016/17: SoU7, which contained a number of measures for public health. What prompted a large proportion of the population to monitor this particular case was that it contained several motions that would pave the way for both more vaccinations and forced vaccination. This was something that involved many, not just those who have opted for vaccine but also people who are vaccinated but who absolutely do not want to see any compulsion.NHF Sweden sent a letter to the Social Committee, declaring that it would violate our grounds if forced vaccination, or mandatory vaccination as stated in Arkelsten's exercise. Many others have also sent in letters and many have called Social Affairs and Parliamentary Policy. Riksdag politicians have certainly noticed that there is a massive resistance to all forms of coercion in terms of vaccination.
should be constitution instead of grounds.
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#10 of 61 Old 05-21-2017, 11:15 PM
 
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I suppose you've heard the news about iron-fist Italy by now. https://www.rt.com/news/389007-italy...ion-mandatory/

Hey, there's a measles outbreak. Saaaaaaaaaaaaay, I know! We could FORCE-VAX all children for Hep B. Makes sense.

It looks like this is school-based? Can parents delay? Homeschool?

Grrrr! Despicable!
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#11 of 61 Old 06-02-2017, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Claim that not only is Italy doing the right thing but other countries should follow their lead. https://theconversation.com/italy-ha...its-lead-78576
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There are two types of ethical justifications for mandatory vaccination. First, most of us would agree that people have a moral duty not to harm or risk harming other people – at least when avoiding harm, or risk of harm, comes at a small cost to individuals. Unvaccinated children do represent a risk to other people, and vaccination entails a very small cost to parents and to children. The benefits of vaccination in terms of protection from infectious disease outweigh the costs and risks of vaccination. For instance, the World Health Organisation estimates that between 2000 and 2015, measles vaccination prevented more than 20m deaths.
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#12 of 61 Old 06-02-2017, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The argument against mandates and fines https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2017/06...cine-policies/

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Parents do not make decisions on vaccination willy-nilly, on the basis of hearing a lot of “scary” things on the internet. Many base their decision on family experiences of adverse reactions, say, either to the parent, or to an older sibling. Many stop vaccinating a child due to adverse reactions experience by the child in question. Many are much, much better informed on vaccine risk and the poor state of vaccine safety science than their doctors. Mandates without exemptions strip these individuals – who likely include those at higher risk of vaccine injury, for the reasons I have outlined – of the rights to choose health care options, of the rights to not participate in an uncontrolled clinical trial (post-market surveillance is, under any definition, clinical study), and the penalties imposed often involve access to public education, and thus the parents and their children are stripped of their rights to access free public education.
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#13 of 61 Old 06-14-2017, 03:03 PM
 
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Italians protest

https://www.attivotv.it/sta-succeden...a-la-rivolta/#


Parents eye Austrian asylum in Italy vaccination dispute
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40221569

A FB page called Vaxxed - Revolution for Choice also has pictures of the Italian Protest. I understand there was also a protest in Poland but I can't seem to dig up any pics.
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#14 of 61 Old 06-14-2017, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Discussion in Ireland around taking money away from non-compliant families? This letter writer strongly dislikes the idea. http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/le...ance-1.3118433

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Informed consent to medical treatment is very difficult to achieve if it is hedged about by financial sanctions, penalties or duress. There is something mean and almost totalitarian about the idea of taking money from children in the furtherance of a government policy, however worthy that policy might be.
Mean and totalitarian is a good description.
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#15 of 61 Old 06-14-2017, 10:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by samaxtics View Post
Italians protest

https://www.attivotv.it/sta-succeden...a-la-rivolta/#


Parents eye Austrian asylum in Italy vaccination dispute
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40221569

A FB page called Vaxxed - Revolution for Choice also has pictures of the Italian Protest. I understand there was also a protest in Poland but I can't seem to dig up any pics.
I dug up some vids from Poland. It looks like the opposition was at least as big as Italy's.



Funny, isn't it? Thousands of Polish people showing up to protest EU membership? Newsworthy!

Thousands of Polish teachers showing up to protest education reform measures?
Newsworthy!

Thousands of Italians union members take to the streets to protest new austerity measures? Newsworthy!

Thousands of Italians show up at an anti-immigration protest? Newsworthy!


Thousands upon thousands of Polish and Italian citizens join up in a coordinated effort on the same day to protest coercive vaccination laws?

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#16 of 61 Old 06-15-2017, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
I dug up some vids from Poland. It looks like the opposition was at least as big as Italy's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hal68bzSqCk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0KQ3cKrDkA

Funny, isn't it? Thousands of Polish people showing up to protest EU membership? Newsworthy!

Thousands of Polish teachers showing up to protest education reform measures?
Newsworthy!

Thousands of Italians union members take to the streets to protest new austerity measures? Newsworthy!

Thousands of Italians show up at an anti-immigration protest? Newsworthy!


Thousands upon thousands of Polish and Italian citizens join up in a coordinated effort on the same day to protest coercive vaccination laws?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3mxVjB4aqI
Might undermine Dr. Pan's claims that the "real" grassroots are all on the side of vaccination.

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#17 of 61 Old 06-15-2017, 03:17 PM
 
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Might undermine Dr. Pan's claims that the "real" grassroots are all on the side of vaccination.
Have you ever seen a pro-coercion march of this magnitude? (And focused solely on the pro-coercion cause? No, bundling causes doesn't count).

As a substitute, I will accept evidence of citizen, grassroots pro-coercion forces showing up en masse in Sacramento of the same magnitude as the opposition. Good luck with that one, Pan.

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#18 of 61 Old 06-15-2017, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Have you ever seen a pro-coercion march of this magnitude? (And focused solely on the pro-coercion cause? No, bundling causes doesn't count).

As a substitute, I will accept evidence of citizen, grassroots pro-coercion forces showing up en masse in Sacramento of the same magnitude as the opposition. Good luck with that one, Pan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjZPoPaOk0s
People who want to vaccinate just don't feel as though someone is going to take away their vaccines. A few people are getting somewhat anxious about herd immunity, but not anxious enough for mass marches.
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#19 of 61 Old 06-15-2017, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So Pan has to make stuff up and tell fibs. Poor guy.
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#20 of 61 Old 06-16-2017, 03:37 PM
 
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Since we are discussing Europe, here is what happens in Nederland (The Netherlands) when school children have chickenpox contrasted with outbreaks in N.America:

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#21 of 61 Old 06-16-2017, 05:57 PM
 
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And now France: https://www.thelocal.fr/20170616/fra...y-for-children

The pro-coercion lobby is launching a Blitzkrieg. I think we're well with in reason to wonder what's behind all of this.
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#22 of 61 Old 06-16-2017, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
And now France: https://www.thelocal.fr/20170616/fra...y-for-children

The pro-coercion lobby is launching a Blitzkrieg. I think we're well with in reason to wonder what's behind all of this.
Uh oh! That is awful. But isn't Blitzkrieg a term related to the Nazis?
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#23 of 61 Old 06-16-2017, 06:11 PM
 
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@kathymuggle I don't remember enough from my college French classes. Help me out here!

https://www.change.org/p/p%C3%A9titi...ns_dialog_true

Does this go into any details about France's 2002 Rights of the Patient? I wonder if it is similar to the Canadian Constitution barring coercive vaccination (???)

I'm not a huge fan of online translators, so I'm summoning you.

Any other French-speakers, feel free to jump in.
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#24 of 61 Old 06-16-2017, 06:13 PM
 
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Uh oh! That is awful. But isn't Blitzkrieg a term related to the Nazis?
Calm down. It was just a hyperbolic figure of speech.

In all seriousness, (lest the Godwin police come after me), it actually pre-dates the Nazis. https://www.britannica.com/topic/blitzkrieg
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#25 of 61 Old 06-16-2017, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
Calm down. It was just a hyperbolic figure of speech.

In all seriousness, (lest the Godwin police come after me), it actually pre-dates the Nazis. https://www.britannica.com/topic/blitzkrieg
Interesting!

Although they should give Alexander the Great more credit. Given the technological limitations of his time, he was probably one of the most successful generals of all time. For example, he successfully conquered Afghanistan (although it went by a different name back then).

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However, probably the biggest strength of the Army of Alexander was its mobility. Alexander was a brilliant mind, great tactician and military specialist. He often made in battle adjustments, but he needed his army to be able to move fast and quickly relocate from one to another position. To enable that movement, Alexander used light armor for his army. Additionally, Alexander always scouted the terrain where the battle could occur, and he tried to maximize the potential and advantages of the terrain.
http://www.documentarytube.com/artic...le-in-15-years

I think he certainly understood the concept of Blitzkrieg, even if he didn't have the necessary tools.
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#26 of 61 Old 06-16-2017, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
And now France: https://www.thelocal.fr/20170616/fra...y-for-children

The pro-coercion lobby is launching a Blitzkrieg. I think we're well with in reason to wonder what's behind all of this.
It just occurred to me, is this a response to the showings of Vaxxed in Europe? And all the other noise getting out there about HPV problems, etc.

A sort of attempt to shut down the whole thing and convince people that they are helpless and might as well give up and comply?
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Ooooo! Maybe I'll dig into that documentary after my kiddos are asleep! I think the Nazis would have claimed to have invented the Internet, had it been around.

Another factor is that the media has been foreshadowing, pre-marketing, and rah-rah cheerleading coercive policies in Europe. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mea...europe-n301726
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#28 of 61 Old 07-05-2017, 10:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post
And now France: https://www.thelocal.fr/20170616/fra...y-for-children

The pro-coercion lobby is launching a Blitzkrieg. I think we're well with in reason to wonder what's behind all of this.
France has just announced it will make vaccines compulsory starting in 2018, following France's lead. Also in the article that I hadn't seen before: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7824246.html

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Two children in the UK have died of measles since 2006, and in 2013 a young man from Wales died of the disease – all a “waste of life,” Dr Farah Jameel told doctors at the British Medical Association (BMA) annual meeting last month.

The BMA is calling for evidence to be submitted to the UK Government on “the potential advantages and disadvantages of childhood immunisation made mandatory under the law”.
Is the UK next?

It points out that outbreaks in italy have increased 5-fold in April compared to last year. Two children have recently died weeks apart from measles in Italy - one who was undergoing cancer treatment and caught it from his unvaccinated sibling and another one last week.

As I have said *many* times before on this forum, more unvaccinated children will mean more outbreaks which will mean tougher laws on requiring them for the good of public health. Measures via fearmongering or anything else that reduces the rate of vaccinated children will only harm the non-vaccine movement in the long run, not help. Looks like that prediction is starting to pan out.

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As I have said *many* times before on this forum, more unvaccinated children will mean more outbreaks which will mean tougher laws on requiring them for the good of public health.
Can you provide evidence that there are "more unvaccinated children" in Britain?

I am finding just the opposite. By Brian Deer's own admission, MMR vaccination rates in Britain have been on a consistent upswing. It may be time to look instead to vaccine failure as a source of recent outbreaks.
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Can you provide evidence that there are "more unvaccinated children" in Britain?

I am finding just the opposite. By Brian Deer's own admission, MMR vaccination rates in Britain have been on a consistent upswing. It may be time to look instead to vaccine failure as a source of recent outbreaks.
That statement from Brian Deer was correct back in 2012 when he made it, but rates have since declined. See this article for example "Child vaccination rates slump 'extremely worrying' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...mely-worrying/

This article discusses the decline and also pockets of low vaccination http://theconversation.com/why-are-v...-falling-64931

There is not any good evidence that the measles vaccine immunity is waning.

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