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#31 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 01:31 PM
 
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Originally posted by Tree Huggin Hippie
And, how can we say when a woman becomes a mom? Is it when the baby is conceived? Or is it when the baby's soul is waiting to be conceived? Did she become a mom when she was pregnant with her first child? Did she suddenly become a non-mom when she lost that child? I don't know... I'm not her.
Well said. You expressed what I was feeling perfectly.

Steph

Steph~~momma to Rhys 2002, Niamh 2004, Isla 2007 and Deirdre 2009
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#32 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 01:51 PM
 
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Originally posted by Butterflymom
but she's not a 'WAHM chick' so to speak, so I admit it crossed my mind as odd again then. But if she's got a quality product, and it works well for me, then I'll keep buying from her. I do feel more warm and fuzzy about buying from a WAHM, though.
The others said what pretty much summed it up... But I do have to point out that "wahmchicks" is the name of the auction site- if it were named something different, it would still be the same auction site so because the term WAHM is in the title it isnt her fault. Same would be if a WAHD wanted to post stuff kwim?

****
Do we ask for birth certificates before you can get listed on a resource list, or on an auction site? WAHTTC? WAHWaiting to Adopt? WAHInfertile, deciding to live childless? WAHBut my baby died? WAHWife?
****

^^^^^I liked that^^^^^

You could feel good you were buying from someone who struggles with infertility because you are in a sense still helping her acheive the same goal that we are *staying home with her children*
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#33 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok I think I should say something here.

I was in no way referring to anyone who is struggling with infertility. Given that I have an IVF baby...that certainly is NOT what I was referring to! I wasn't even aware of the gal that states something about IF on her site. So please lets not turn it into being about that.

That question more came from something that I've seen on some of the sewing lists. Some women will join the lists and get very excited and want to start diaper businesses right off the bat. Some have talked about - well one day I know we want to have children and I thought I would start a cding biz. And they've maybe made just a handful of diapers (and not tested). While they may be excellent seamstresses (giving the benefit of the doubt here) they have admittedly talked about not having any "real" cding experience. This is also what I was referring to in regards to a brand new mom - would there be a question about cding experience? or does cding experience even matter to you? Maybe I should have stated it that way instead

That's something that I would want to know if I think I'm going to a WAHM site. And how many of us really think to ask what sort of diapering experience the diaper maker has? Or better yet...do we think to ask how much testing went into her product? (one of my little pet peeves is that I feel that many products are severly undertested)

In regards to WAHMchicks. Well I do agree that I would think that those who participate there should be WAHM or WAHD. Seems sortof odd for someone who doesn't have children to be doing things in that arena. But then I think it would be really hard for the Auction host to police that. Maybe they could just have the person sign something stating that they are indeed a WAHM or WAHD. Maybe they already do this. Sorry, but just going to the WAHMchicks site makes me think that those on there are indeed WAHMs.

Also, I know that there are those of us that do make an attempt to specifically purchase from WAHM (I'm sure WAHD would be the same case) because we feel that we are helping support families in being with their children. I guess that's what prompted my original questions...would you then be upset at all to find out that things weren't as you thought.

For me any upset has come when I felt that things were not clealy represented or misrepresented in whatever the case was.
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#34 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 02:33 PM
 
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was in no way referring to anyone who is struggling with infertility. Given that I have an IVF baby...that certainly is NOT what I was referring to! I wasn't
I know that you weren't referring to this particular wahm, but a few OP's did, and that is why I had to clear that up.

As far as a new mom having not cloth diapered before.... I know what you mean. One has to appreciate certain things about the diapers in order to understand them, yadda yadda. At the same time, one can have experience cloth diapering before they have kids. My son has been cloth diapering for the past 14 months.

I think it completely depends on their experience.

There are many women who see all of the cloth diapering businesses and think they can do that too, and make a ton of money. They expect to make money like a full time job and get really excited. These businesses tend to close up shop in a very short period of time. I know what you are talking about... I see it too. And wahm's that make diapers and use mostly sposies.... you know, cloth diaper while at home, but use sposies while child is sleeping and for going out.

One has to believe in their product and feel comfortable using it if they want others to do the same.

Teri
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#35 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 02:41 PM
 
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Does it bother you if the WAHM farms out the work to someone else?


No not really I just figure that she is so successful now that she needs the extra help. I still hope the dipe is of good quality but I am sure that WAHM picks a good seamstress

What if you didn't realize it until after you ordered?

I don't think it would bother me I would hope that even though they farm out thier work they are still a WAHM

Does it bother you if you find out the "WAHM" doesn't have any children?

Now that would bother me because then they really aren't a WAHM are they they are more like a WAHW (work at home woman/wife)

?[/B]Or what about if she is a very new WAHM - new referring to maybe just having/had her first child??[/B]

That does not bother me because I am one trying to get started being a WAHM. I don't think that just because you are a new WAHM means that you aren't a good one.

Sarah - wife, mom to Riley 7/9/03 and Jacob 7/15/05 and Hannah 1/5/11 a successful vbac.gif
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#36 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 02:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Butterflymom
Also, she participated in the WAHMchicks charity auctions, but she's not a 'WAHM chick' so to speak, so I admit it crossed my mind as odd again then. But if she's got a quality product, and it works well for me, then I'll keep buying from her. I do feel more warm and fuzzy about buying from a WAHM, though.
You would feel "warm and fuzzy" if you knew this woman. She did the wahm chicks auctions because it was FOR CHARITY. She worked hard to get her items done in time. She is the sweetest person I have met in a LONG time. And she doesn't deserve this at all.

I would suggest you consider making a public apology.
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#37 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 02:58 PM
 
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Wow.. I'm really out of the loop here because I get the feeling some of you are talking about a particular business woman ??

I don't think the NAME wahm really matters.. we sort of generalize and make wahm all inclusive of any "at home" business.. whether it's a mom, a dad, a grandparnt.. whatever. Heavnly Heinys for example.. isn't that run by the former owners parents? I don't see any problem with that. The reason being.. the pattern has been tried and tested and was used on the former owners children day in and day out... when she designed the pattern, she had CD experience. It's when a childless wahm DESIGNS a dipaer that I'm bothered. Ever buy a baby product from the store and think "who in the world designed this thing?!! They certain didn't have children!".. *LOL*.. my husband and I had that conversation a lot. There are some things that you have to learn first hand.. there is NO substitute for day in and day out use of a particular pattern. You can get a lot of information from reading and talking to other parents... but it's still not the same. I remember starting out using cloth diapers.. I'd read ALL the board archives..I'd done my research.. I knew what to look for and what to avoid..yet I was suprised at all the things I didn't and COULDN'T know without actually DOING it every single day.

It doesn't have anything to do with being or not being a mom in my book. I'm happy to buy from any work at home person.. but I will not spend my money on a diaper that was designed by a person without cloth diapering experience... not just on borrowed children.. but experience that means diaper changes every hour.. diaper laundry every 48 hours etc etc. I wouldn't go to a lactation consultant who had never breastfed either.. even if she has read all the books and talked to all the parents.. doesn't matter.. it's no substitute for the actual experience.

Amber
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#38 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 03:03 PM
 
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Good thing DD deleted this post for me, lets try again.

Being a good sewer of CD's to me is not based on how many kids you have...since we're all seen poor sewers with children, or ones who assume all kids pee or are shaped like theirs. Plenty of well experienced with CD women have made some pretty bad diapers. Innovation and pattern development are helped with a lot of practical experience, but aren't exclusive. If she makes a diaper that works great for me, I don't care if she has none or 10. If she has to be the perfect CD'ing mom, how many makers would we have? And how would they meet the demand? Poor makers will go out of business, good ones stay until they burn out. They're not much money in it.

Were I selling CD's, where would I sell them? my website, ebay, wahmall/kittybids, wahmchicks. Would it be my choice how those sites are named? It's the marketplace. WAHDads would certainly not be eligible, being neither a mom nor a chick. Grandmothers would qualify? I don't feel there deception by selling on sites labeled wahm, calling yourself a WAHM on you web site might be questionable to me...but given how we use that term broadly to include women who make jewelry, soap, pads, and other products that have nothing to do with parenting, I could see why someone might see it as becoming a broarder term instead of trying to deceive (like workmanship...even if it's not a man.)

Will we next perhaps exclude a mom who has a babysitter or her mom come in and help while she sews? Or uses daycare 2 days a week, or preschool. Or ships her UPS packages from someone's office...because it's not a "home"
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#39 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Very well said Amber!

I agree - there are some things that just really take specific experience. I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.

I agree with what Teri said too - I think there is a world of difference in using diapers day in and day out in all circumstances and just using them here and there.

Clarity - I think you are missing the point. No one is saying that these different people should NOT do anything. We are in no way talking about excluding anyone. It was about things being misrepresented. I think most of us agree that we just want people to be honest and we just want to be informed. Then we can make whatever choice we want to about it.

I also think maybe it's just a reminder that some of us need to ask more questions because when we see things like "I make the diapers with...." and so on - that we expect that they are the one actually making the diapers. And if we want to purchase from those who have actual hands on experience with cding day in and day out - then maybe we need to ask about that. I know when I'm reading reviews I will often inquire about specific things. But I'm not always so good about asking the same things when purchasing.
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#40 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 04:02 PM
 
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The point that many are seeming to make here that I simply cannot give any kind of credence to is that one must have firsthand experience with using a product on one's own child for it to be a good product.

I've seen posts from many people that talk about how mom or grandma or Aunt Sue got excited about the new cloth diaper options and started making me diapers and now she wants to sell them... If she's got a good product, I can't imagine refusing to use it because she doesn't have to change the diapers or do the laundry herself.

Also, there's not a single WAHM out there making diapers who will be able to continue indefinitely trying new fabrics and innovations on her OWN children. If she continues to make diapers once her children no longer wear them, and if she plans to continue making improvements to her design or trying new fabrics, then there will come a point where she can no longer say with honesty, "Yes, I've used this exact product on my child."

Honestly, I think this is one time where diaper makers really ARE being held to a different standard than any other business would be held to. I don't contact Old Navy to make sure their clothing designers have children, I didn't contact the manufacturer of my washing machine to make sure their designers all have children, etc.

I feel it would be incredibly rude to start asking personal questions to a diaper maker. Just because she has a product available doesn't mean I have the right to ask her how many children she has, how long she's been using cloth diapers, or any other question of that nature. Those things have nothing to do with the fit or quality of her product, and it's only my business if she chooses to post that information on her site.
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#41 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 06:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tree Huggin Hippie

And, how can we say when a woman becomes a mom? Is it when the baby is conceived? Or is it when the baby's soul is waiting to be conceived? Did she become a mom when she was pregnant with her first child? Did she suddenly become a non-mom when she lost that child? I don't know... I'm not her.
Ditto to what Teri said. I lost my first baby in June 2000, at 3 weeks (too soon to test, but I KNOW I was pregnant) but that still doesn't stop me from saying that Brittani is my second child, and that I became a mom from the first moment that that child was concieved. Being a mom is about more than just being pregnant. It is about a heart.
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#42 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 06:40 PM
 
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I'm confused about how the definition of who's a mother relates to this discussion, but I do wonder about a WAH Person who makes cloth diapers who doesn't have a child and doesn't have that hands on experience that Amber is talking about.

On the other hand, I think that a WAHP who designed cloth diapers but hasn't cloth diapered a child might have a "fresh" (no pun intended) perspective on cloth diapering. Perhaps she's more objective about fit and absorption and function simply because she's not just focused on one CD'd butt, but several or many (especially if she chose testers in a thoughtful way). I've seen some products where the design seemed SO tailored to that particular WAHM's child in terms of gender and body type that you might as well forget using it if your child wasn't the same. While hands-on experience can be great for doing anything related to that hands-on experience, I think it can also blind you to thinking that experience is generalizable to anything beyond your home. It seems possible to me that someone could use testers and take that feedback and develop a product that is spectacular because she is relying equally, and from the beginning, numerous opinions rather than just one (based on experience with one child).

I'd do in this situation what I usually do-- wait for the hyenas to stampede her with orders, wait for the reviews, and the make a decision to try them based on those reviews.

At the end of the cloth diapering day, it's about the quality of the product, not the life experience or credentials of the person making it.

Karla
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#43 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 07:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by craZmama
You would feel "warm and fuzzy" if you knew this woman. She did the wahm chicks auctions because it was FOR CHARITY. She worked hard to get her items done in time. She is the sweetest person I have met in a LONG time. And she doesn't deserve this at all.

I would suggest you consider making a public apology.
Yikes, now I feel really terrible, like I have attacked a sweet woman and everyone needs to defend her. The woman I was talking about is so obviously a sweetie pie (I really liked her from her first email to me), and I didn't say I didn't feel warm and fuzzy about buying from her--I do! I thought I was just saying that since I'm really gung ho on parents staying home with their kids, I love that dollars I spend on stuff I need go towards helping this child or that child not need a daycare. I didn't mean to imply that a diaper maker without children doesn't have the heart of a mother, maybe she does! I just meant that for practical purposes, there simply aren't any children at present benefitting from the success of that CDing business. I have NO problem with buying from her again and again, ---at the end of the day the way I make my purchase decisions is based on quality (what works best for my son), and the mommies who get to stay home with their children from successful CD businesses that I contribute to is just icing on the cake. There's some icing with helping a sweetie pie lady with her CD business too, but I said I felt even 'more warm and fuzzy' about, well.... keeping kids out of daycare. I really didn't mean to offend anyone or imply anything bad about the woman I'm referring to!!! I wish her all the best! I also had no problem with her participating in the auction--it's for charity, after all, I was just being totally honest that my first reaction was that it was a bit odd--but that passed through my head for like a half a second and then I really didn't care and felt great about the entire charity auction, and hoped her products got some great bids to help the charity cause.


Sorry this got so long I just got a little hurt that my well-intended words got misconstrued and I hope I somewhat cleared it up.
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#44 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 09:05 PM
 
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Butterflymom,
I don't see any reason you should need to apolgize for your opinions on the subject. You didn't attack anyone and you are more than entitled to feel any way you feel. I think if anyone was out of line, it certainly wansn't you.


I did think Karla has a good point.. It just might work to the wahms advantage to have a fresh eye so to speak when it comes to design. I didn't even think of that.. what a wonderful point you make. I myself have been guilty of making diapers that I know work for my baby and I often felt like it was easy to get stuck on making it fit HER when I was testing. Yes.. yes, I can see that point. I still think there's a certain necessary value to having cloth diapered a child full time when designing.. but your point was so valid that I think I wouldn't be so reserved about trying a diaper if I came upon that situation. Thanks for giving me a new way to look at it

Amber
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#45 of 47 Old 02-16-2004, 09:41 PM
 
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I have no problem w/ WAHM's "farming" out work to other mamas who want to make $ and stay home w/ their kids. In fact, I wish more WAHM's would do this so more great products would be more readily available!
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#46 of 47 Old 02-19-2004, 07:21 PM
 
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If it's the WAHChickie I think it is, it plainly states on her about me page that she hasn't kids, though is trying to beat infertility issues to have them. She doesn't hide it.

Since when does WAHM mean 100% full time at home?? I didn't realize they must be home full time to qualify. There are many mamas that do both out of necessity to meet the financial requirements of their families.

Personally, I'll buy from those who produce a product that is #1 quality and works for us. The only time I'd have reservations about it us if there was misrepresentation about it.

Butterfly mom, I'm sure you were just taken by surprise that she wasn't a mom more than anything..lol... since you've ordered again from her. Awesome stuff eh?
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#47 of 47 Old 02-19-2004, 07:58 PM
 
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I totally understand the whole idea behind supporting a mom who is staying home with her kids. I do..because I have done that since I was pg with my first almost 8 years ago!

However, my concern is the fact that people throw words around, not realizing that those words can be very hurtful to someone who is struggling with the whole issue. I applaud any woman out there is is daring enough to start their own business...especially in preparation for becoming a mom! Think about the future kids you are helping by supporting a "STBWahm".

I have sent a 14 yo girl over to amity's because she was interested in becoming a midwife. I have supported teenage boys who are starting their own business out of their parent's homes. I have a dear friend who I referred to amity's because she was interested in attachment parenting. Just because the site is called "Amity Mama" doesn't mean it's ONLY for mamas....just like "WAHM Chicks" isn't only for wahms.

I honestly despise catty, snide conversations, and none of this is meant to be that way. I know that everyone has their opinions...I am just trying to offer a different perspective.
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