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#61 of 80 Old 03-02-2004, 11:40 PM
 
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Originally posted by jeyer
I respectfully disagree. The separation of church and state simply means that government should not sanction a particular religion. It does not mean that religion should not be mentioned in "public" places -- by business owners or any other non-governmental citizens. That's not America -- when it was founded or now; that's the former Soviet Union. That's North Korea. That's no where I want to be. [/B]
IMO, the point is not that business owners shouldn't be allowed to mention it. Of course they are permitted to mention, prosletize, etc. anything they want to. But as consumers, we each have a choice as to where we want to shop. And I think the point of the quote (correc t me if I am wrong, karla) was BACKGROUND as to WHY some people (myself included) have a gut reaction to the mixing of religion with anything else - businesses included.

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So far that a simple religious quote is seen by some as pushing religion down people's throats. So far that the mere mention of God (which 92 percent of our population believes in), can make people uncomfortable.
What exactly is the point that 92% of the pop. believes in G-d? That it makes it OK in some way? Imagine how that other 8% feels!

It's not that people shouldn't be permitted to mix their business with their religion. It's just that for ME, and only ME, religion is not something I need to share with others in that way. And since I have a choice where I shop, I can choose to shop in stores that don't make religion a focus.

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#62 of 80 Old 03-02-2004, 11:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeyer
The separation of church and state simply means that government should not sanction a particular religion. It does not mean that religion should not be mentioned in "public" places -- by business owners or any other non-governmental citizens. That's not America -- when it was founded or now; that's the former Soviet Union. That's North Korea. That's no where I want to be.
Your disagreement is not with what I said, for the record. And while this is certainly not the forum for a constitutional law lesson, your statement interpreting the first amendment is not very accurate or complete.

I did not claim that the constitution prohibited public expression of religion-- I said that there was both constitutional and social history supporting cultural values of private religious expression. Social history means the way that a country or culture or sub-culture behaves with respect to a particular issue. If you look at the social history of religion in this country (and in other places around the world where a secular govenment is in place), you will find quite a number of books written about the split between private and public worlds (particularly before the Industrial Revolution), and religious expression is squarely situated in the private realm. It has not been a common practice in this country for privately owned public spaces like businesses to openly display religious quotes or statements. I can't imagine the Middle Eastern grocery store that I frequent hanging a sign over the cash register with the same quote that was on the website that started this thread.

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#63 of 80 Old 03-02-2004, 11:43 PM
 
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Originally posted by busybusymomma
The mention of "In God We Trust" being on the dollar bill bothering people is eating at me. As I understand it, many of the Founding Fathers were Christians and the ones who weren't apparently weren't bothered by that.
I am not sure WHY that is on the dollar bill, but IMO, it conflicts with the tenets of separation of church and state. I surely don't think it is an endorsement of the Christian religion, and if it was meant to me, I would hope that we have moved past that in our government. Seriously, many Americans are not Christian and/or do not believe in G-d. Where does that leave us?

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#64 of 80 Old 03-02-2004, 11:55 PM
 
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Seriously, many Americans are not Christian and/or do not believe in G-d. Where does that leave us?
That's why I pointed out that 92 percent of Americans believe in God. I don't see having "In God We Trust" on the dollar bill as sanctioning a particular religion ... it's just reflecting a shared belief and value of the vast majority of our population.

As for the public/private issue ... the suggestion that people should only express their religious beliefs in private just leaves me cold.
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#65 of 80 Old 03-02-2004, 11:56 PM
 
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Originally posted by allformyboys
On this site, in this case would you have recognized it, and identified it immediately as a religious quote/prayer? I know that personally, I would not have known it was anything more than jibberish under the name until it was pointed out here. Anyway I was just wondering if you knew it was a prayer BEFORE reading this post, or if it only offends you now that you know?
I really don't understand why it matters to you. Yes, I knew it was a prayer common to those of the Muslim faith. Although it was a long time ago, I took a couple of classes in college on comparative religion, so I have a passing familiarity with the common prayers or basic concepts of a number of religions. In my pre-mom days, I also did lots of fun reading on radical Jewish theologies, and branched out into other religions as well. So I may be more familiar with religions than the average person.

But-- I didn't say I was offended by this prayer. I said that I didn't like the mixing of religion and business. This is my personal value, and I don't want to support a business that does this. I think it's her absolute right to put anything on her site that she wants, just as it's my right to comment on it and choose not to buy from her because of it. Other people feel differently.

I don't know why you'd want to buy from someone who posted jibberish on their site, though-- but to each her own. Didn't we have a thread not too long ago about how some people won't buy from website with lots of obvious spelling errors?

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#66 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 12:04 AM
 
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Originally posted by jeyer
The suggestion that people should only express their religious beliefs in private just leaves me cold.
I really wish that you would respond to what I actually say. I have suggested no such thing. I said it was my personal values to do so, and in the exercise of my personal values, I choose not to buy from businesses that put religion in my face. I'm not campaigning for everyone to do this; I'm not secretly working towards a new law that will prohibit public expression of religion; and I actually do not care if people want to do it. I think people should be able to express their religious beliefs in public as long as it does not infringe on others who do not want to hear them. Likewise, I think that any WAHM should be free to put religious statements on her website, just as I am free not to buy from her for that reason.

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#67 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 12:39 AM
 
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I think people should be able to express their religious beliefs in public as long as it does not infringe on others who do not want to hear them.
That isn't how I understood your earlier posts. Perhaps this is too complicated an issue for a diapering message board, eh? :
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#68 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 12:53 AM
 
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This thread has been copied from Diapering to this forum, as this is the appropriate forum to discuss WAHM business practices.
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#69 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 01:39 AM
 
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Originally posted by lifetapestry
I really don't understand why it matters to you. Yes, I knew it was a prayer common to those of the Muslim faith. Although it was a long time ago, I took a couple of classes in college on comparative religion, so I have a passing familiarity with the common prayers or basic concepts of a number of religions. In my pre-mom days, I also did lots of fun reading on radical Jewish theologies, and branched out into other religions as well. So I may be more familiar with religions than the average person.
It doesn't really matter to me, I was just wondering if you knew what it was to begin with, since I had no clue and wouldn't have known, then again the Muslim faith isn't one I know much about.

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But-- I didn't say I was offended by this prayer. I said that I didn't like the mixing of religion and business. This is my personal value, and I don't want to support a business that does this. I think it's her absolute right to put anything on her site that she wants, just as it's my right to comment on it and choose not to buy from her because of it. Other people feel differently.
To true.

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I don't know why you'd want to buy from someone who posted jibberish on their site, though-- but to each her own. Didn't we have a thread not too long ago about how some people won't buy from website with lots of obvious spelling errors?
LOL good point, I wouldn't buy from someone with jibberish either, that wasn't what I meant, more of a knowing it was something, but not knowing what. And LOL about the thread with spelling errors, yes we did, and yes I was on the 'don't buy' side of that I think (mostly) which I suppose makes just as much sense as this over all. Jibberish or religion or spelling errors, I didn't buy from her anyway so I guess the point is mute.
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#70 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 02:54 AM
 
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Originally posted by allformyboys
so I guess the point is mute.
No, Marnie, the point is MOOT.
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#71 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 03:00 AM
 
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Originally posted by busybusymomma
The mention of "In God We Trust" being on the dollar bill bothering people is eating at me. As I understand it, many of the Founding Fathers were Christians and the ones who weren't apparently weren't bothered by that.
Michelle, the God mention on money, and in any other secular realm does bother me. Because it is putting someone's concept of "God" into the secular realm, assuming it applies to me and to everyone. I don't want the gov't telling me about God, sanctioning a certain view of God, etc. That is not the role of government, in my eyes.

Does this make sense to you? Can you see where I'm coming from?

Pam
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#72 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 03:50 AM
 
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History of "In God We Trust"

Origin of the phrase, "separation of church and state"

I don't feel the need to argue about these things since I have my own opinions and I'm unlikely to change any of yours but I thought I'd post these links just fyi.

As for the rest of this arugment, I don't get it. I don't know why anyone cares that someone doesn't want to buy a diaper because they don't care for people mixing business and religion. No one said it was wrong; people just stated their opinions. Personally, I've decided not to buy a diaper before because I didn't like the logo. Yes, I have a prejudice against ugly logos, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
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#73 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 08:58 AM
 
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Originally posted by 3boybarians
Personally, I've decided not to buy a diaper before because I didn't like the logo. Yes, I have a prejudice against ugly logos, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
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#74 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 10:57 AM
 
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Originally posted by pamelamama
Michelle, the God mention on money, and in any other secular realm does bother me. Because it is putting someone's concept of "God" into the secular realm, assuming it applies to me and to everyone. I don't want the gov't telling me about God, sanctioning a certain view of God, etc. That is not the role of government, in my eyes.

Does this make sense to you? Can you see where I'm coming from?

Pam


And thanks for the links Kathy, I'm looking at them too!

I guess it's a touchy issue, isn't it? I'm not too keen on a lot of the things our government does either. Our public schools are teaching evolution and showing elementary kids videos about sex (including partially naked people ). I don't think they should teach just ONE theory of how the world began. They should cover them all equally or not at all. Maybe they should start letting parents teach their kids the values they want. Guess if you haven't figured it out by now, I'll probably be home educating my kiddos.
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#75 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 11:01 AM
 
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Umm... sorry. Looks like I went off on a tangent again. I have trouble staying ON topic sometimes! T
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#76 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 08:09 PM
 
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Actually, there are only about 76-82% of the US that are Christians, according to some studies. One of my favorite sites:

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

I do believe that "In God we Trust" is a violation of Sep of C & S.

Back on topic Even though Christians make up the majority of the US population, it does not give them sole dictatorship over others. Our foundation was set upon making sure *every* American could freely worship according to his or her own beliefs. I find it odd that this discussion is taking place over a Muslim website, when LOTS of Christian WAHMs openly post that they are a "AP-ing Christian Family...."
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#77 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 09:05 PM
 
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Originally posted by Free Thinker
Actually, there are only about 76-82% of the US that are Christians, according to some studies. One of my favorite sites:

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

I do believe that "In God we Trust" is a violation of Sep of C & S.

Back on topic Even though Christians make up the majority of the US population, it does not give them sole dictatorship over others. Our foundation was set upon making sure *every* American could freely worship according to his or her own beliefs. I find it odd that this discussion is taking place over a Muslim website, when LOTS of Christian WAHMs openly post that they are a "AP-ing Christian Family...."
ITA!

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#78 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 09:15 PM
 
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Why is this thread here in WAHM Well? Shouldn't it be moved to religion/spirituality?
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#79 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 11:48 PM
 
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I was too!
:LOL

I think it has just been bouncing around a bit, but there are some interesting aspects for wahms to take from this discussion...but then that would be a different thread all together at this point...

Those who would like to continue the spirituality discussion on this may find a newly started thread in the Spirituality forum to be less OT and easier to follow, as this has really shifted from the original diapering related post.

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#80 of 80 Old 03-03-2004, 11:58 PM
 
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Yes, this conversation has certainly waivered from being more of a WAHM subject to being almost entirely spirituality. Let's not forget the gov't and those dollar bills! Now THAT is far from WAHM-ville. :LOL

<why do I have visions of WAHMs printing out money?>
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