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#91 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 02:13 AM
 
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Funny, she is a hypnotherapist, but that probably wouldn't matter to you if you are going to discount everything I say.
I hate to say it, but I agree with MrsRobertson----the idea of you "still being in hypnosis" is silly. Like she said, first of all, you're counted up at the end of every script. That alone should do it. And second, hypnosis isn't something that can be forced on you or that you can't rid yourself of at will. It isn't like "Office Space" where you walk around unable to function or un-relax yourself.

If you did the course, you'll know that we're in many states of hypnosis every day while driving, watching TV, reading, etc. Just reading this post has you in a temporary, light state of hypnosis. Will you be unable to "snap out of it" when you're done reading without giving yourself special cues? Of course! Same thing.

I'd ask to see your psychic's certified hypnotherapist credentials and then verify that she didn't just print up the certificate off the internet.
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#92 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 02:16 AM
 
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I'd ask to see your psychic's certified hypnotherapist credentials and then verify that she didn't just print up the certificate off the internet.
That's funny too.

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#93 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 02:21 AM
 
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That's funny too.
It wasn't meant to be a joke. I'd verify her credentials before allowing her to treat me with hypnosis, and a certificate on a wall wouldn't be enough proof for me.
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#94 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 03:12 AM
 
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Ya know, I just realized what has bothered me the most about this whole pain-free argument. I think everyone will describe their birthing experience differently - whether it's with pain, intense feeling, uncomfortable, pressure, etc. The fact is there is a change in how your body feels during birth. So I wish to correct myself in my previous post and replace "pain" with "a change in feeling/sensation is supposed to be there". Even if you don’t feel pain, you feel something. My brain may interpret pressure as pain where yours doesn’t but does when you feel uncomfortable. But, I agree, I shouldn’t say the pain is supposed to be there, but rather that there is a chemical and physiological change that takes place during birthing that can be felt by your body. But I assume it’s a feeling one would rather not feel so that is why we are turning to the hypnosis method. If you didn’t feel anything you wouldn’t need hypnosis. But to say birthing is not SUPPOSED to be painful? If you truly believe that then I assume you don’t need hypnosis since there is nothing felt?

Sarah – “Dismissing the possibility that it doesn't have to physically hurt, no matter what's in your head during labor, is just as bad as dismissing the possibility that some women are going to have painful labors no matter what they do.” Saying that it doesn’t HAVE TO hurt is the same as saying there will be pain but you can find a way to overcome it and set it aside, which was my overall point. And I never said some will have pain no matter what they do – just the same I will never say anyone that studies hypnosis for birth will not have pain. (BTW I’m not revealing what method I’ve chosen to use for my upcoming birth for purposes of playing devil’s advocate.) And I don’t believe pain only indicates something is wrong in your body. Just like we are able to distinguish good and bad in the world – you wouldn’t know what feels good in your body if you didn’t feel pain. For me, sometimes sneezing is painful, but that doesn’t mean there is something wrong necessarily. I feel round ligament pain a lot but there isn’t anything wrong in that area – it’s my body’s natural adjustment to my growing baby/belly. And that’s wonderful if there are some documented cases of women not experiencing one little inkling of “pain” without hypnosis…I have not heard of them so I’d love to be enlightened if you would like to provide links/resources to the stories.

Octobermoon – “i can also tell you it's possible to not have pain during one's period.” Again, saying it’s POSSIBLE is the same as saying you can overcome the pain that IS there. You found a method that worked for your body to overcome the feeling of pain you were experiencing. But I’d really love to be enlightened on the painless menstrual cramp theory!!! Woo hoo, wouldn’t that be a relief!

Simplykate – I relate to what you are saying about the “intense” feeling you get during exercise, not pain. But again, others may feel that same intensity as pain for certain periods of time. Maybe their muscles aren't as strong as yours or their joints aren't as limber. Maybe it’s more like a triathlete – you can’t tell me that those competitors that are stumbling, limping, practically falling on the finish line – some passing out – are not in pain. You don’t have to do something wrong to feel pain during exercise - the lactic acid build up in muscle can cause pain enough for some. (And that’s what I meant by stating the muscles are overworked.) My husband competes in marathons as a handcyclist. He is a paraplegic that uses a wheelchair so his body faces daily physical challenges that any able-bodied person cannot begin to associate with. But when he’s on his cycle, his sense of freedom and control and ability empower him…yet, there have been many races where he pushed himself to that state of exhaustion and described it as painful. He still felt good feelings at the same time – achievement, physical strength, the athletic tingling buzz, energy, etc. I believe you can feel pain along with good physical feelings at the same time. (i.e., some people think sex is physically painful but they experience other positive physical feelings too)

Prothyraia – Exactly what I was alluding to with my last statement – hypnosis can be used to overcome many types of pain – or however you want to call it…uncomfortable feelings, intensity, pressure. I know there are a growing number of cases where patients have used hypnosis during surgery without absolutely any anesthesia. So that brings me back to debate the need for hypnosis for those that believe birth is SUPPOSED to not hurt - why would you need hypnosis if you truly expect it to not be painful? You obviously feel something during a contraction or else you wouldn't know when to use the different parts of the hypnosis method.

My overall point is it is POSSIBLE to overcome physical feelings that you would rather not feel when you train your mind to do so. If you use hypnosis and it works, you’ve overcome the physical feeling with your mind….but the feeling was there first.
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#95 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 04:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dolphindance View Post
Ya know, I just realized what has bothered me the most about this whole pain-free argument. I think everyone will describe their birthing experience differently - whether it's with pain, intense feeling, uncomfortable, pressure, etc. The fact is there is a change in how your body feels during birth. So I wish to correct myself in my previous post and replace "pain" with "a change in feeling/sensation is supposed to be there". Even if you don’t feel pain, you feel something.
Sure, I'll get down with that. I totally expect to feel contractions, for sure! Only epidurals completely numb the sensations away, right?

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Sarah – “Dismissing the possibility that it doesn't have to physically hurt, no matter what's in your head during labor, is just as bad as dismissing the possibility that some women are going to have painful labors no matter what they do.” Saying that it doesn’t HAVE TO hurt is the same as saying there will be pain but you can find a way to overcome it and set it aside, which was my overall point.
No, it's not the same---when one says "it doesn't have to hurt" they are (or at least I am) saying that there will not *automatically and assuredly* be pain involved in the contractions. I'm not saying "there will be pain and I will use my hypnosis to make it go away." I'm saying "there might, naturally, be no pain at all but if there is I will have my hypnosis to deal with it, and if I stay relaxed my chances of never feeling pain are greater." I don't know how I can say that another way, but I'm definitely NOT saying "there will be pain" when the words I write are "there doesn't HAVE to be pain." When I say "I won't necessarily HAVE to have a c-section" it's not the same as saying "I will have a c-section, but I will deal with it." (As an example). I'm saying that's not the pre-determined outcome I should expect.

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And I never said some will have pain no matter what they do – just the same I will never say anyone that studies hypnosis for birth will not have pain.
I wasn't trying to say you're saying that----I'm the one saying it! Some women will have pain no matter what they do, IMHO. Just like some women won't have pain, no matter what they do (or don't do).

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And I don’t believe pain only indicates something is wrong in your body.
I don't necessarily think this either, I just brought up the fact that some people theorize this, and it's interesting in the chi/acupuncture discussion.

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And that’s wonderful if there are some documented cases of women not experiencing one little inkling of “pain” without hypnosis…I have not heard of them so I’d love to be enlightened if you would like to provide links/resources to the stories.
Have you read Ina May's Guide? I'll go try to dig up some links for you, but you might need to give me a while, as it's pretty late here and I won't be doing that until tomorrow, when I have time.

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Octobermoon – “i can also tell you it's possible to not have pain during one's period.” Again, saying it’s POSSIBLE is the same as saying you can overcome the pain that IS there. You found a method that worked for your body to overcome the feeling of pain you were experiencing. But I’d really love to be enlightened on the painless menstrual cramp theory!!! Woo hoo, wouldn’t that be a relief!
I rarely have menstrual cramps, no matter how heavy the flow. No pain killers, no issues at all. Most of the time, in the last 10 years or so, I'm surprised by my period's appearance because I never know when it's coming---no cramp warning, not even sensations of any sort. I know plenty of women who are the same way. It's definitely not me "overcoming pain that is there"----there just isn't pain there, and hasn't been since long before I even thought about what kind of birth I wanted or even believed in hypnosis (which I didn't until recently). I'm surprised you don't know anyone who doesn't have cramps!

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My overall point is it is POSSIBLE to overcome physical feelings that you would rather not feel when you train your mind to do so. If you use hypnosis and it works, you’ve overcome the physical feeling with your mind….but the feeling was there first.
But what if you use your hypnosis first to never feel that feeling? We're not trained to wait until we feel pain and then go into hypnosis, we're trained to start using it when we feel the very first sensation of labor----those early contractions that *most* women don't feel as painful, but rather just a very strong BH contraction or whatever (and I know there are some women who start painfully, or have painful BHs, but from my understanding this is not the majority of women).

But perhaps what you're actually saying is more of a chicken-and-egg thing, like "labor has historically been painful, which is why we're using hypnosis now to deal with it?"
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#96 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 04:32 AM
 
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Here's one link to an article written by Ina May Gaskin that has references in it to painless childbirth (and sometimes childbirth while asleep) with nothing other than lack of expectation of pain (meaning, they give a few citations of sources for it):

http://www.arizonachoices.com/journal/AZCHDec_web.pdf

I'll get more later; it's a hard set of terms to search the internet on without getting a bunch of crap.
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#97 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 12:25 PM
 
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So, for the record, you don't need to believe that pain in childbirth has no physiological basis in order for hypnobabies/hypnobirthing/etc. to "work".
Yep. The hypno-anesthesia in Hypnobabies makes up the difference between any pain/discomfort that may be there and being comfortable.

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I have a couple questions for anybody who has used Hypnobabies. I would like to try it but my husband is a little worried about me being hypnotized during the birth. So here are the questions that he asked me to post. Would I be alert during the birth? What happens if an emergency arises; is it easy to snap out of hypnosis? Thanks so much.
I've used hypnosis for my last four births and I was more alert and aware because I was focused and comfortable. With my first birth I was in a lot of pain. I find pain to be very disorienting. With my hypnosis births I knew what was going on. I could communicate with the people around me. I knew what positions I needed to use. I knew if anything wasn't right. It was much better birthing with hypnosis than without.

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Originally Posted by dolphindance View Post
Ya know, I just realized what has bothered me the most about this whole pain-free argument. I think everyone will describe their birthing experience differently - whether it's with pain, intense feeling, uncomfortable, pressure, etc. The fact is there is a change in how your body feels during birth. So I wish to correct myself in my previous post and replace "pain" with "a change in feeling/sensation is supposed to be there". Even if you don’t feel pain, you feel something. My brain may interpret pressure as pain where yours doesn’t but does when you feel uncomfortable. But, I agree, I shouldn’t say the pain is supposed to be there, but rather that there is a chemical and physiological change that takes place during birthing that can be felt by your body. But I assume it’s a feeling one would rather not feel so that is why we are turning to the hypnosis method. If you didn’t feel anything you wouldn’t need hypnosis. But to say birthing is not SUPPOSED to be painful? If you truly believe that then I assume you don’t need hypnosis since there is nothing felt?
Hmm.... I agree that there's definitely a change. I guess I wouldn't go so far as to say birth isn't supposed to be painful, but I don't like the idea of saying it's supposed to be either. It is what it is, which will vary woman by woman. For most it probably will hurt without specific tools to make things more comfortable. I like Hypnobabies because of the hypno-anesthesia techniques. Releasing fears to reduce tension does a lot to reduce...extra pain caused by tension, but that still leaves discomfort caused by the physiological process. Hypno-anesthesia allows that to be experienced comfortably, even painlessly.

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#98 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 02:21 PM
 
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I'm surprised you don't know anyone who doesn't have cramps!
ya know what's funny.. i didn't have cramps during my cycle until AFTER having children. suddenly i feel like a pubescent teenager. getting pimples, hormonal surges and cramping. i want my old body back! lol!
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#99 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 04:07 PM
 
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So that brings me back to debate the need for hypnosis for those that believe birth is SUPPOSED to not hurt - why would you need hypnosis if you truly expect it to not be painful?...
My overall point is it is POSSIBLE to overcome physical feelings that you would rather not feel when you train your mind to do so. If you use hypnosis and it works, you’ve overcome the physical feeling with your mind….but the feeling was there first.
Well, the theory there is that because we as a culture of a conception of birth as painful, it hurts because we think it will. And hypnosis helps you deprogram yourself of that unconscious belief that birth is painful. It's not necessary to buy into that theory (I think it has some merit but is overstated), though, because hypnosis also works just fine for pain relief whether you believe the pain is physical or psychological.

Personally, I think that it's possible to have an entirely pain-free birth without using any kind of learned techniques or medication, but not that it's the default or the norm.
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#100 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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I've used hypnosis for my last four births and I was more alert and aware because I was focused and comfortable. With my first birth I was in a lot of pain. I find pain to be very disorienting. With my hypnosis births I knew what was going on. I could communicate with the people around me.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but it was true for me as well. I actually spent most of my labor (until transition anyway) sitting in the bathtub reading a book. I certainly wouldn't have been coherent enough to read during my first birth, hah.
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#101 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 07:13 PM
 
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I hadn't thought of it that way, but it was true for me as well. I actually spent most of my labor (until transition anyway) sitting in the bathtub reading a book. I certainly wouldn't have been coherent enough to read during my first birth, hah.
I have to agree. with my first, the back labor kicked my butt pretty hard. i used what hypnobabies practice i was able to have in between contractions and passed out every chance i got to rest up.
i was the pure definition of "laboring woman" there was no reasoning with me, and you weren't really even a part of "my world".

with my second...complete opposite. not only was i calm, relaxed, and comfortable.. i was coherent! making conversation and jokes!

transition was definitely intense, i'll give you that. but no where NEAR what i had before.
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#102 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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I hadn't thought of it that way, but it was true for me as well. I actually spent most of my labor (until transition anyway) sitting in the bathtub reading a book. I certainly wouldn't have been coherent enough to read during my first birth, hah.
That's funny--I read through most of my second labor. I sat in my rocking chair reading one of my favorite books. Whenever I had a birthing wave, I'd close my eyes and relax while saying affirmations to myself. Once it was over I was back to rocking and reading my book. Yeah, there's definitely NO way I'd have been able to do that with my first birth.

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#103 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 08:07 PM
 
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So here are the questions that he asked me to post. Would I be alert during the birth? What happens if an emergency arises; is it easy to snap out of hypnosis? Thanks so much.
I haven't given birth yet and am just at the start of the hypnobabies home study course. But I have had a lot of hypnosis and also took a course in it, so that's why I'm answering.

There is a saying that "all hypnosis is self-hypnosis," meaning that you are the one in charge of your experience and how you react to it.

I think it's common for people to think of hypnosis as being a state in which you are somehow "out of it" and not able to think clearly or make decisions (including the decision of whether to emerge from hypnosis.) But in my experience, hypnosis brings clarity and an increased ability to act in accordance with my own wishes.

I have never had a problem instantly emerging from hypnosis, or moving from a type where my whole body is relaxed to one in which I am engaged with my environment. The techniques used in the hypnobabies course are specifically designed to allow you to move around and talk if you want to even while you are benefiting from hypnosis.

Sometimes when people are in a really deep state of hypnosis, it feels so good that they don't want to emerge and may choose not to (for example, if you are in hypnosis and the dog asks to be let out, you may choose to let your husband handle that while you stay relaxed), but they are in control. On the other hand, if you love your dog and he is choking and needs your immediate help, you will jump up and help him even if you are in a state of deep hypnosis. I have experienced this kind of thing for myself and seen it in other people.

Also, as others have stated, all the hypnobabies scripts have a section to tell you that if, for some reason, you need to attend to an urgent situation outside of hypnosis, you will emerge immediately and be able to think clearly. Even if this section weren't included, though, I think people would still do this.


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#104 of 106 Old 02-12-2009, 08:42 PM
 
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Wow...I've never heard such strong reactions to debating pain - my only point of having a natural birth & having VERY intense back labor (prior L5 fracture too) for 26+ hours is that labor is painful, but "painful" is a state of mind - Mind over matter - I willed myself and trained my mind with hypnobirthing & committed to having a drug-free birth for not only my daughter, but for my own recovery. Yes, it hurt - but the hurt was not like I was just torn in half in a car accident. I didn't tense up the way trauma would create fight or flight - I prepared for the experience using the relaxation techniques & breathing - I ate through labor - I didn't sleep a wink - but the oxygen and reg. use of muscle - without all my energy being directed to fight or flight - made ALL the difference. I can't imagine doing this type of birth in a stressful & normal hospital environment though...I didn't have "sick" or trauma-oriented things attached to my experience, like IV's and monitors & bright lights & multiple gloved hands. Hmmm....maybe birth is just something you do...I think we're culturally trained to fear it and that sets women up for a bad experience or a traumatic birth. Don't watch TLC or DHC...just let the experience unfold for yourself without the preconceived notions of intervention.
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#105 of 106 Old 02-13-2009, 04:16 PM
 
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I don't remember exactly, but it was in the Painless Childbirth script (for the home study course). It may not have been spelled out exactly like that, but that was certainly the impression I took away from it. There was also a bit about feeling sorry for people who tried to tell you their painful birth stories because they just didn't know any better, or something.

I mostly remember being so irritated by that particular script that I only listened to it a few times, so this may not be *completely* accurate.
I'm not sure what in that script gave you the impression you mentioned, but perhaps it would make you feel better to know that it isn't even part of the program anymore. There is a new one that has been created in it's place called "Easy, Comfortable Childbirth". Even so, I've never read or heard anything in Hypnobabies that states that painless childbirth is what "should" happen, or that pain is all in our heads. I really suspect you were reading a level of meaning into what you were hearing that simply wasn't there.
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#106 of 106 Old 02-13-2009, 04:22 PM
 
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Veritaserum said exactly what I was going to respond to dolphindance. So, Verita, all I can say is, "ditto".
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