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#91 of 115 Old 01-27-2004, 12:28 AM
 
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i went through all the baby stuff a while ago and was amazed at how little the clothes are. and i still remember kinda that they were all too big for ds when he was born.
i just have to look at the tiny kissaluvs 0's and i'm wondering how am i gonna fit a babies butt in there, are they really that tiny?
definately getting excited here, i got short nesting urges and a lot of things is need to do. when we moved in this 3 br place we did so because we knew we wanted 2 kids and each would get their own room. not knowing that we'd end up cosleeping with ds and will do the same with baby. now why do i need two kid's rooms again when one is only 21mos. older than the other??? means i'll have toys all over my livingroom, all over ds's room and then a 3rd room full of toys? hmmmm...
i think my pregnancy insomnia is starting to kick in, anybody else have this problem? sometimes i think about how long ago i've last slept an entire night through. see, i was about 6 months pregnant with ds, so 20 months. that's how long it's been?
i don't have anything productive to add to this thread tonight, i'll go to bed...
night, ladies
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#92 of 115 Old 01-27-2004, 01:17 AM
 
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Hi Ladies!

Another May mommy checking in!

My name is Dawn, and I'm having #3, this is DH's first however, my 2 are from a previous marriage, *but* DH is in the process of adopting them, so all is good


I can't believe we are closing in on May! I just sat here today and realized I haven't bought a single thing for the baby yet!, I'm a baaad mommy

When I had my son 7yrs ago, I was convinced he was my last, so I gave away all of my baby stuff, and as he outgrew more stuff I donated it or gave to friends, so I am starting completly over now.

I'm planning on cloth diapering this one (didn't know a thing about CDing with my other two) so I've been focusing on trying to find good places to buy those from, my MIL offered me a diaper service, so I may take her up on that!

Anyway just wanted to introduce myself, and say hello, I hope you are all doing ok and feeling good!
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#93 of 115 Old 01-27-2004, 12:48 PM
 
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Welcome DawnaRose! Congrats on #3!

jakobsmami - cool on having more than you thought!

KKmama - hope you got some rest and are feeling better today!

phishmama - WAY to bargin girl!

owen&mama - I have to agree 100% with time flying -esp since the morning sickness stopped. Where HAS the time gone???

have a great day everyone.
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#94 of 115 Old 01-27-2004, 02:33 PM
 
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Hi ladies -
I am new to the mothering boards after a long hiatus after my ds was born. I was rather active back in the day after dd was born. It is really nice to be back!

I am due 5/10! We will be having our first homebirth and I am so excited! Nine months seems like a long time to wait for a third child! :LOL

Love to all!

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#95 of 115 Old 01-27-2004, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll add the new folks--welcome! (I think we're up to 50--did I count right??)

Annika, our house is "too big", too. When we lived in Berkeley, we had a tiny house (<800 sq ft), and it was perfect. When we moved to CO, we bought a bigger house, because we're planning on having at least 3 kids, and we didn't want to get things fixed up in a smaller house and then sell and have to do it all over again in a bigger house. But yeah, we've got a couple of empty bedrooms, too. Even when the baby comes, all 4 of us will be sleeping in the same room, I'm sure.

I generally only have a bad night's sleep when my ovary hurts (like last night).

Dawn, I've gotten the majority of stuff at weebees.com. I've also chatted quite a bit with Rhonda (who runs the site) about what to get, and she's very nice. She has something like 7 kids, and I've found all her diapering opinions to be very sound. Her prices are good, too.
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#96 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 12:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by DawnaRose

When I had my son 7yrs ago, I was convinced he was my last, so I gave away all of my baby stuff, and as he outgrew more stuff I donated it or gave to friends, so I am starting completly over now.

I'm planning on cloth diapering this one (didn't know a thing about CDing with my other two) so I've been focusing on trying to find good places to buy those from, my MIL offered me a diaper service, so I may take her up on that!
Dawn -
WE did the exact same thing! When we moved from CA to FL last January, we gave all of our baby stuff away. Ds was just 18 months old and I thought that we were done. Now I am totally starting over! : Plus having the kids 3 years apart and asking people for gifts, feels kind of wrong. But my mother has convinced me to register and have a little "baby shower".

I have not bought anything for the baby either. It still seems so far away! I am not even sure what to buy other than diapers and clothes, oh and a carseat. It does not feel like there is anything else that I "need". Ya know?

In regards to a diaper service, you may want to research a little bit. When we lived in CA, our local diaper service did not do "personal" (I think that is what they called it) service. So, you turned in your dirties, they washed yours and everyones all together and if you turned in 24 dipes, you got 24 dipes back but they were not "yours". Does that make sense? So, you did not get back the same dipes every time. That kind of grossed me out! Although, it may not bother you? Just thought I'd throw that out there!

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#97 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 11:11 AM
 
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kanpope - I've never heard of a diaper service that worked on a "personal" basis. I've always assumed that it's a communal type diaper stash and everyone gets the clean ones out of the pile.

Though our service does offer special pH adjustments if your baby needs it - so maybe it is.

For me, I'm not really that worried about it to be honest. (but that's just me).
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#98 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 11:26 AM
 
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Ok fellow diapering divas-I'd say: do your own diaper laundry. It is easy peasy and that way you control everything from amount and type of detergent to how you dry them (dryer vs. line) and temperatures (dryer and wash water temps), and no bleaches or chlorine will be added unless you have city water to begin with, and BEST of all *drumroll please* you get to use any type of diaper you want! I do about 2 loads of diaper laundry a week and expect that number to jump to 3-4 once baby is here. I do a hot wash with extra cleaning cycle with 2 cold rinses and line dry in good weather and dryer dry in bad weather. My dipes are clean, stain free and I never run out.

If you don't already, then come on over to the diapering board here. The mamas there will set you up and then you'll also see my uh addiction in full force, lol!

DawnaRose-once you decide what types you want to try out, I can give you names of more wahms (work at home moms) than you ever wanted to check out. I'm pretty familiar with who has the best prices on what and and all that good stuff.
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#99 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 12:37 PM
 
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Okay, I want on the CD train! I went to the diapering forum yesterday just to browse, and I've got some homework to do....CDF, AIO, Snappy's.... I don't know what any of that stuff is! I'll see you over there phishmama and others. Hopefully, I can catch up!
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#100 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I remember thinking the CD forum was kind of overwhelming before I had ds and was trying to figure out what I needed... so I just asked my mom for the basics of what she did... They didn't have prefolds back then, nor snappis, but she was a big help on the washing end of things. I agree, doing your CDs is not hard... we do about 2 loads a week, too.

Dawn, I finally saw your location... are you in Boulder, too? (FWIW, weebees is in Littleton, so the shipping is pretty cheap and fast.)

I can feel the baby starting to turn... all the mvmt till now has been downward (a lot on my bladder), but now I feel what I remember as turning, with more kicks higher up (and little hands in different places).
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#101 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 01:40 PM
 
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Thanks for the nice welcome


The idea of a service giving me diapers that others have used doesn't bother me that much, I mean its ikky if I sit and think about it, but as long as they are cleaned and not stained and dirty looking or smelling I think it'd be ok, but I haven't decided on if I'm actually going to use a service or not, my MIL was very excited to learn I wanted to CD so she offered that right away, but we live in a very small town so not even sure if they offer it to us

Quote:
Ok fellow diapering divas-I'd say: do your own diaper laundry...
I'm actually one of those weird people that likes to do laundry!:LOL
So, that wouldn't be a problem With 2 kids and a hubby I do about 4 loads of laundry a week, that's if I keep on it and don't let it pile up, most recently though I've been waiting until the weekends and getting it all done in two days, but if it were diapers I'm sure I'd be washing alot more often, I'm just being lazy right now because I can

Quote:
DawnaRose-once you decide what types you want to try out, I can give you names of more wahms (work at home moms) than you ever wanted to check out. I'm pretty familiar with who has the best prices on what and and all that good stuff
That would be awesome, I have a huge collection of links I've found, but I don't know whats a good deal or not ya know? I mean I think the AIO's are nice, but too expensive for us right now anyway. I've been eyeing the prefolds and covers as a better option for me. Are they hard to get the hang of? I've never cloth diapered anything! My MIL did CD with all her kids so she's offered to help me out and stuff, but alot has changed since she did it last, (15yrs ago for her last one)
I'll head over to the diaper board too!

(this question might be better suited for the colorado thread-) but I've seen a few of ya from Colorado also, do ya know anythign about Exempla St Joesph's hospital in Denver? Thats where I'm delivering and I've never even been there or know anything about it! I know they just remodled and have a new baby place, or so I'm told and I've seen a few pictures in my folder the Dr's office gave me, but I'm supposed to pre register soon and do the tour but wanted to get other mom's opinions on it first. : I'm just wondering about how easy they are to work with in reguards to what a mom wants during labor and delivery, when I had my son I was practically strapped to the bed and hated it, don't want that happening again


Oh, KKmama I live in Erie, so close to Boulder I'll go check out that site too!
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#102 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 02:16 PM
 
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The reasons why I'm not doing my own diaper laundy are:

1) we live in an apt and it's very expensive to wash and dry. (esp if I have to add in extra rinses) Yeah, some people do it, I'm not going to. I don't think the hauling of 50 lbs poopy diapers 2 or 3 times a week to a cheaper laundromat is worth the extra effort right now. It would work out to be about the same as if I paid for the service.

2) I have issues with contaminating other peoples laundry in the communal washers. Yeah, there's goign to be contamination from everyone anyway - but in my mind it's different when it's diapers.

3) It's one less thing I have to think about doing myself in the early weeks/months.

4) When we move to a house and have our own washer/dryer (line) I intend to buy my own diapers and wash/dry them myself.

I agree 100% with all the reasons why to do it yourself. Some folks would not see any of the reasons above as worth considering - but oh well. Why I feel the need to justify my choice here, I don't know, but there it is.
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#103 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 02:21 PM
 
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DawnaRose, if your MIL is offering you a few weeks of free diaper service I'd consider taking it...I mean, why not? Of course the danger there is that you would get spoiled/lazy like me and never actually get around to canceling the diaper service : , but still, it might be a nice thing to use in the beginning. If nothing else, it would save you from spending a lot of money of newborn dipes that you'd use for just a few weeks!

~ Meredith, mom to dd(Jan '02), ds1(May '04) and ds2 (June '07) ~ :
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#104 of 115 Old 01-28-2004, 03:10 PM
 
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Awww, pattycakes, I hope I didn't sound militant or anything...totally NOT where I was going with suggesting washing at home. I was trying to show how easy it is, but it was assuming you mamas had easy w/d access.

I'm with you, truly...our dryer died over the summer and it was rainy almost everyday so I couldn't line dry, and just lugging a heavy basket filled with wet (clean) diapers back and fourth with a 4 yo and a 2 yo gave me quite a HUGE respect for mamas who go the laundromat route! I don't even know if/how much ones saves in the end by doing it at a mat, once you factor in gas and coins for the washes and rinses and drying. I have heard of several mamas throwing in the dipe over it, though, so it must be both expensive and cumbersome, when there is no service in the area as an alternative.

Ok, good grief, I need to quit talking about diapers. :


KKmama-I was just commenting to dh last night that the baby must be around 12 inches long b/c I'm getting like a head waaaay down low and then a solid foot kick right about the ribs...like I can outline how the baby is positioned and how it is moving. Some movement is already getting a bit uncomfy, even!

How are all our movers doing?? I sincerely hope all is well w/movings and closing deals and all that stuff. Now that's a headache I wouldn't want while pg.
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#105 of 115 Old 01-29-2004, 10:49 AM
 
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NO problems phishmama - I think I was just having an overly sensitive day.

As far as kicking... my baby is breech right now - lots of kicks in the groin area and toe tapping on my cervix (makes me want to check for tiny toes dangling down). WIERD sensation. Dh had his had on my belly the other night and baby kicked so frickin' hard. OUCH. Poor Dh felt like baby was saying "piss off. MY Mommy!".

How soon can we tell the baby's position by palpatating? Hmm. I'll have to ask my midwife that today.
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#106 of 115 Old 01-29-2004, 12:38 PM
 
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I have been feeling weird baby movements too! It almost feels like the baby is dancing~all these crazy movements all over my belly. Then I get this feeling like the baby is rubbing me. Weird! I am sure that I felt the same types of things with the other two but it just seems like a long time ago.

I get the baby updates from babycenter.com and one said that I may be able to start distinguishing body parts, like a kicking foot or a protruding elbow. At this point, there is no way!:

I am wondering if it is me because I started at a higher pre-pregnancy weight than ever before (135 with #1, 145 with #2, and 160 with #3 - I gained a ton of weight when we moved from CA to FL) so since I have extra fat around the baby, my stomacj is not so taut?

Am I being overly sensitive re: my larger body? : or reasonable? What has been your experience with the distinguishing body part kicking at around 23-25 weeks?

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#107 of 115 Old 01-29-2004, 01:06 PM
 
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Kanpope-I'm a tiny petite mama when not pg (buck 10) and I have no middle fat so I feel the first movements fairly early...waaaay earlier than "they" say: 16 wks with #1, and about 12 wks w/2 & 3. So now that I'm feeling the across the midsection movements, I'm basing it on previous experience with my boys as to body part id. It doesn't necessarily mean that I've correctly id'ed body parts, , but I think I have a good indicator when I get a rounded rub (feels like a head or shoulder) in one area and then further across my abdomen I get a firm kick (foot). I don't think I'll ever forget the kicks as ds#1 literally bruised my ribs from kicking so hard and so often when I was about 7 mos pg with him.

I agree that at first, you can't really tell if it is a foot vs. a hand punch or elbow, or a head vs. a shoulder or even butt. I guess I'm saying that I well could have felt a butt when I thought it was a head and a foot when it was really a hand. This baby is so active, however, that I feel like I know what it is doing, just as I did w/my boys. Heck, with ds#2, he already had a regular nap schedule in utero that he kept once he was born, lol!

You might think I'm nuts, but I'll tell you one fun thing...both this baby and ds#1 play a "game" with me...I press one area of my belly, then baby presses that same area, then I do another area and baby presses back again. Ahhhhh, makes me feel so connected to this child!

I'm 23-24 wks now but that could be off-I could be farther along b/c I have super short menstrual cycles (21-23 days) and I gave an arbitrary LMP as the date my edd was based upon (I had no clue when it was so I just picked the middle of the month, lol).
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#108 of 115 Old 01-29-2004, 04:29 PM
 
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Hi all-

I've been MIA recently - I had a doula client deliver Tuesday evening; I was at the hospital for 18 hours Monday-Tuesday and am still recuperating!

On moving: we are getting so excited! Just bought a rocking chair (used, old-fashioned, beautiful, cheap!), picking out curtain material, etc. Fun! My mom arrives tomorrow from Florida, and we are going to be "homemaking" like crazy this week. We won't actually move into the new place for a couple of weeks, but we're getting the keys on Saturday and can start preparing the place.

On diapering: I need to go over to the Diapering board, too. I have been doing a lot of research, but am still trying to figure out prices, new vs. used, etc. The good news is that we DO have an extra-large capacity, front-loading washer and dryer in our new house, so that's fantastic! I may not go with the service after all...especially there are none in town that don't use bleach, phosphates, etc. You'd think, being in "crunchy" Portland...:

On baby movement: I, too, am feeling TONS of movement, but still definitely don't know a head from a butt. I am pretty thin, and started feeling the babe around 17 wks, but individual limbs are hard to identify for some reason. I am 27 weeks now, and I read that my babe will soon stop twisting and turning so much and find a favorite position. It seems like she just started moving! But I guess I still have kicks in the ribs to look forward to...

OK, that's enough of a book. I do check in a lot and enjoy reading about everyone - hopefully I'll have more time to post soon.

Sarah
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#109 of 115 Old 01-30-2004, 03:14 AM
 
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I'm at 25 weeks, and I usually feel baby 'round what I think is the lower part of my uterus. I'm really impressed with those of you who can actually figure out parts- I'm in the haven't-a-clue bunch.

Of course, I also never felt those "flutters." The first time I was SURE of movement, is was a full-fledged kick. Like baby saying, HEY MOM, it's me- really! That was at around 16-17 weeks.

I never used to be able to tell when I ovulated, either (except for being weepy), and have always had trouble pinpointing or describing any discomfort in my innards to doctors.

It would be neat to be more in touch with my insides- maybe I'll try to tune in a bit more to the movement and use this as an opportunity not only to learn more about baby, but about myself.

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#110 of 115 Old 01-30-2004, 03:11 PM
 
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It sounds like most of you mamas are settling into your second trimesters in a very nice way. I am still trying to shake illness, with an ear infection and a cold. I am working a lot, lot less in the next few weeks, so hopefully it will help. Speaking of working -- I attended my last pre-maternity-leave hospital birth on Sunday-Tuesday. I always justified shutting down my practice early by saying, "Well, you never know when you might get a 36 hour birth . . ." I got one!

It was such a weird mishmash of good and bad care. The first doctor we got was the resident who had done the bulk of my client's prenatal care. He was a total sweetie-pie who was totally professional and giving even in moments of huge stress. He lost a preemie baby on that shift and you wouldn't have known except that he looked a little weary. I felt so very bad for him. We got four more residents over our remaining 24 hours there and had a mix of very abrupt and hurried care and competent, sensitive care. Had some great nurses. There was some outright lying going on about the effects of pain meds "Why not have an epidural . . . they don't effect the baby at all," one of the docs said, then not half an hour later was whispering off to the side of the room that an epidural bolus was the likely cause of another patient's baby's heart decels, leading to emergency c-section. That kind of stuff makes me mad. I think that if a doc says something like "Well, most babies tolerate this medication very well and we try to limit it to the amount and situation that will remain safe," that is one thing, but when they say that it "has no effect," it is another. Oops. Off soapbox. My client did well with the meds she eventually chose and had a nice birth, complicated only by a couple of bad tears. Her daughter was very, very cute and had really, really long, black hair. Mom and baby were seperated for a long time while mom got her tear repair, and the baby and dad were just staring peacefully into each other's eyes for so long. Poor mom was so tired she fell asleep breastfeeding, but when I saw her the next morning she was joyful and refreshed.


I have noticed something funny. In the last three births I have attended, when moms are pushing, my baby goes absolutely nuts! I get beat like a drum! It is probably because of the intensity of the moment and how it affects me, but I like to think that it is because the two babies are communicating to each other, sending their intensified energy across the room.

Hope everyone's prenatal care is going well and that you have some great big bellies!

Stacia -- intrepid mama, midwife, and doula. Changing the world one 'zine at a time.
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#111 of 115 Old 01-30-2004, 05:36 PM
 
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Okay, well I haven't posted in forever, but I can't resist responding to the diapering questions:

I'm kind of an anti-diaper diva. I use prefolds, proraps (very basic velcro cover) and a few fuzzi bunz. Of course, I would be a big time diaper junkie if I had the money:LOL . That said, I think there are advantages to having your own dipes, if you have a washer and dryer. I'd not be so happy if I was going to the laundry mat. However, a diaper service would be great in the first few months, for two reasons, one: you'll be busy enough without adding diaper laundry, and two: that way you can skip out on buying the small sizes. My son was in the infant (? the green serged ones) prefolds and size small bummis snap covers until he was 4 mos old and out grew them. We bought the premium (? blue serged) prefolds and size M proraps then, and at 18 mos, he's still in them. Granted, he's a tall skinny one, but still...

Anywhoooooo. No more diaper talk for me!

I am HUGE and feeling lots of kicks, which I always enjoy. This baby seems much more active than ds was. At my last mw visit, she had trouble counting the heartrate cause the baby was moving around so much -- and that wasn't even movement I could feel.

My milk has dried up, but ds still nurses to sleep and occasionally during the day. The good thing is, he has started sleeping *much* better at night, now that there is no reason to wake up for his milkies! Now if only I could sleep! I didn't have insomnia w/ ds, but I have had it terribly w/ this baby. My mw reccomended skullcap, and that does help some, but usually after the first time I wake up to go pee, the insomnia kicks in again.

oh, and as far as identifying baby parts, it seems pretty early for that to me. I'm not a skinny mama and I know that makes a difference, but I'm definitely not there yet either. No visible kicks this early either. I am looking forward to that though, I think it is just too cool. I try to play the press-belly and baby presses back, but both of my babies just seem to get annoyed by that, and stop moving all together. Contrary little buggers I have:LOL

Alright, I just guzzled two quarts of water so I need to go pee now
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#112 of 115 Old 01-31-2004, 01:07 AM
 
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Glad every one is doing well. I just got a big box of cloth diapers from a friend, I am so looking forward to using them! Those are prefolds and some Polar Bear covers. I think I just need to buy a few more covers, and then I will be set for this baby diaper wise. I should have enough diapers after receiving this box and after I dig out our own cloth diapers from the basement. I know they have to be in there some where :-)

My energy is back to normal now, so I am getting some stuff done. Not as much as I really wanted to, but I am making a start. Some day I'll be organized :-)

Baby is kicking a lot now, I love love love it! Excited about getting to meet this little one!

Karen
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#113 of 115 Old 01-31-2004, 01:48 AM
 
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Hi Mamas!!!!

I have been dying to post here, I had some cookie issues, couldn't log in- but now Its fixed and I can post again!!!

Here's my update-

I've been feeling like a million bucks...lots of energy, getting lots of sleep...although all on my side now I like sleeping on my tummy! I even got out for a couple of bike rides during a week of nicer weather...pulling a trail-a-bike with my bike trailer on it...this way my 5 year old can help me pedal up the hills... My belly is big and beautiful and this last week has been the big week for people who didn't know to finally say...hey are you pregnant??? You know, like the librarian and the parents at school...

I am getting LOTS of rolls, kicks and responses from the baby, Defenstrator, The last birth I was at (I'm a Doula) the exact same thing happened when the Mom was pushing...it was like the baby was cheerleading in there!

One cool thing happened at our last midwife appointment...She brought all four of her kids over (4 girls) and they, along with my girls and my doula all gathered around my belly on the living room floor for a little listen and a poke. Well whenever I lay on my back like that, the baby floats up to my belly button, which it did during that visit. So the MW is feeling baby and says oh, here's the head. The babies head was up at my belly button and we all took a turn gently moving it's head between our thumb and first finger...no joke! It was the coolest thing ever! So I have done it myself more since then and baby seems to LOVE it!! It 's like it comes up for a head rub!!

Oh, and to add my good baby stuff deals...I dropped into our local thrift store and found the stroller I have always wanted (a pram style Peg Perego with big wheels and lots of springs for bouncy buggy rides) For the bargain price of 30 bucks!!( they sell for 4 hundred big ones new!!!) Ok, so then if that wasn't good enough, I find a barely used baby trekker in the corner, price tag $4 BUCKS!!!!!
(they sell for 1-150 new) So I bought it even though I already have one...perhaps I should figure out Ebay and sell it!!

Anywhooo...sorry for the novel...it's great to be back!

Welcome new May Moms!
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#114 of 115 Old 01-31-2004, 01:52 AM
 
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Hi All. Seems like forever since I've come here to read or post, but I think it has really only been 3 weeks. We've been busy. Just among the baby related things.

We met and hired our doula.
We started natural childbirth classes. They are offered in a nearby town. It seemed early, but the next session won't be until around the time our baby is due. We love the classes! I wish they were going to continue until our due date (except for the fact that they are late at night and Dh and I are starting to feel sleep deprived).

We had our followup ultrasound on Wednesday (my 31st birthday). The baby definitely has a cleft lip, but probably does not have a cleft palate. They very thoroughly checked all other organs and body parts and did not find anything of concern (this means that the baby probably does not have a syndrome). They did not recommend that we go there for the birth, so we get to stay at our home hospital. Hopefully, the surgery (at 3 months or so) will take place there because we really like that hospital and they have very experienced surgeons). I shouldn't have to have any more ultrasounds which is really great.

The next day we had an appointment with our nurse midwife and I was thrilled to find that I had only gained 1 1/2 pounds over the last 4 weeks (I have stretch marks anyway, though). Then they measured my fundus and found it was 29 inches! I am only 26 weeks (my measurements at 22 weeks were right on). I think they would have been worried if I hadn't had an ultrasound the day before showing the baby was appropriate size. I did tell the midwife that the ultrasound showed it is lying stretched out diagonally (head in my hip and feet in my ribs). She said the baby is probably stretching out my uterus more than babies who like to be curled up. Funny, huh?

I have 1 1/2 more weeks to decide about the Rhogam. I don't feel much closer to a decision.

The baby is very active but Dh still hasn't gotten to feel a kick.

We maintained our resolve to not find out the baby's sex! I would have weakened if Dh wasn't so strong. I am thankful that he is.

It is great to hear how well everyone is doing.
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#115 of 115 Old 02-01-2004, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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