Thoughts on drinking/smoking weed while 2-3 months preg. - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 04:11 AM
 
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This is an interesting thread and an important topic to discuss, however we need to  be able to discuss issues like these without personally directed remarks. There are many flags on many posts on this thread. I am locking the thread and expect to have it re-opened by tomorrow. 

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#62 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 04:52 AM
 
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There have been many a discussion over non-prescription drug and alcohol use during pregnancy on Mothering over the years. These conversations often break down to the type of disagreement we see here. What is different about this thread is the level of personally directed posts and direct or indirect insults or name calling. We also see a lot of negative assumptions about the points members are trying to make. 

 

I had a read through this thread and the debate and ideological differences start really early in this thread and it is very difficult for me to find point at which the posts shift from disagreement over the issues being personally pointed.  Removing all the flagged posts would result in an unreadable thread so, instead, I am asking that members involved in the more personally directed posts go back and edit so as to not totally destroy the discussion. Members, please read through your posts, have a look at our UA and edit before continuing to post to this thread. 

 

If there is something you want to express and you are having trouble wording in a way that contributes positively to the discussion you can feel free to PM me and I can try to help. Likewise, if you are not clear on which posts should be edited, please contact me and I can try to identify that with you. 


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#63 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 07:04 AM
 
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I am reopening this thread. I have removed a some of the posts that were especially personally directed and PMd a couple of people with a request for edits. Most importantly, please move forward in the discussion by speaking generally about the topics, pay close attention to what members are tying to say, avoid assumptions, ask for clarification and etc. 


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#64 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 07:24 AM
 
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My two cents on reading this thread... 

 

We all have a line and that's a lot of what we're discussing. That line of risk and how we deal with issues when another parent does not have the same line as us. How we talk about that, what we think should be done if that line crosses over what we think is safe, how we deal with feeling that another person's line (and how they talk about that line) influences how our choices are viewed by society. 

 

I have seen discussions where the line being debated is a SIP of champagne for a woman in her 3rd trimester. A SIP!  A lot of the same language was used for that "why risk it?" "No amount is proven safe!"  I suspect that most of us here on this thread can sympathize with what is frustrating about this kind of talk. OTOH, this is a FNL site so talking about what is safe, what is healthy during pregnancy, and etc. is totally something we talk about all the time. 

 

If we each find out line and then we imagine how we want that choice spoken about, perhaps that can help with how to talk about this issue. 

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#65 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 11:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by phathui5 View Post
 

There is also the apparent increased risk of stillbirth, which is either doubled or tripled depending on which article you're looking at:

 

Tripled:

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20131209/pot-smoking-in-pregnancy-tied-to-stillbirth-risk

 

Doubled:

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/dec2013/nichd-11.htm

Thank you for sharing some supporting sources for your statements.  This is the kind of information we need in this thread.

 

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Did you read my last post? I am stating facts that I have seen with my own eyes. I am not saying AT ALL that my choices are the best ones and everyone should conform to mine. You are reading into my posts what YOU WANT TO READ. Please go back and read again because you are dead wrong.

Thank you for letting me know that this isn't what you are trying to say.  Instead of getting angry, would you please try again to summarize the point you have been trying to make?  I am confused about what it is.

 

 

For those who didn't follow the link, the first paragraph of the ACOG opinion sums the issue up nicely:

Quote:
 

Maternal Decision Making, Ethics, and the Law

 

ABSTRACT: Recent legal actions and policies aimed at protecting the fetus as an entity separate from the woman have challenged the rights of pregnant women to make decisions about medical interventions and have criminalized maternal behavior that is believed to be associated with fetal harm or adverse perinatal outcomes. This opinion summarizes recent, notable legal cases; reviews the underlying, established ethical principles relevant to the highlighted issues; and considers six objections to punitive and coercive legal approaches to maternal decision making. These approaches 1) fail to recognize that pregnant women are entitled to informed consent and bodily integrity, 2) fail to recognize that medical knowledge and predictions of outcomes in obstetrics have limitations, 3) treat addiction and psychiatric illness as if they were moral failings, 4) threaten to dissuade women from prenatal care, 5) unjustly single out the most vulnerable women, and 6) create the potential for criminalization of otherwise legal maternal behavior. Efforts to use the legal system to protect the fetus by constraining pregnant women's decision making or punishing them erode a woman's basic rights to privacy and bodily integrity and are not justified. Physicians and policy makers should promote the health of women and their fetuses through advocacy of healthy behavior; referral for substance abuse treatment and mental health services when indicated; and development of safe, available, and efficacious services for women and families.

 

I think this discussion boils down to a few questions.

1. Do the rights or health of an unborn child trump the freedom of the mother?

2. Who should decide what rules pregnant women should follow?

3. When does behavior change from a parenting decision about risk to a harmful decision for an unborn baby, and should anyone have the right to step in in these situations?

 

Also, DH and I have a code phrase from a book that we use for situations where you make the best choice you can.  "What about the fire?"

 

The story goes like this (paraphrasing):

Man: Do you ever wish we had gotten married and had children and a different, happier life?

Woman: What about the fire?

Man: What fire?

Woman: The catastrophic one that burned our house down, and destroyed everything we had, possibly killing our children and us as well?

 

The point is hindsight isn't even 20/20.  You don't know what would have happened if you had made a different choice, so you do the best you can with what you have in the moment, learn from your experiences, and don't beat yourself up about it.

 

To me, a lot of these choices are "what about the fire" choices.  If I have a sip of wine at dinner, and then we get hit by a semi on the way home, which choice should I have made differently?  It could be argued that I shouldn't have gone out, because I would have eliminated the risk of getting hit, but then what about the gas leak in my house that I didn't know about?  etc, etc.  Everything we do carries risk.  Should we be more cautious while pregnant?  Yes.  Should we lock our selves in our homes and breathe canned air to minimize risk, because we would do ANYTHING for our child?  My answer is no.  It seems like there is a large middle ground here.

 

As for the "I would do anything for my child" argument, I do get really frustrated by it.  It is an easy thing to say, and I hope it just means, "I love my child SOOOO much." but it can lead to martyrdom, and in my personal experience, sometimes you have to make decisions about what you will not do for your child.  They can be really really REALLY hard choices to make, but sometimes you do have to choose yourself over your child.  I'm not saying this is the case with having a glass of wine, etc, but that making a blanket statement about doing anything is really not realistic.  e.g. ectopic pregnancy- you could take the chance of growing a baby that will survive outside your uterus.  It has happened.  But the risk to your life is so high, that I doubt you would not terminate the pregnancy.  So, I hope we can reasonably agree that most of us wouldn't do literally ANYTHING.

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#66 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 11:30 AM
 
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The ACOG opinion does sum up the issues beautifully.

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#67 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 11:40 AM
 
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I'm unsubbing from this thread. Its SO far off topic and has become some vicious circular battle that just goes round and round. IDK what I would do in a situation like ectopic pregnancy. I do know that there's no foreseeable circumstance in which I would choose myself for whatever reason over my child. That's not judging anyone, that's just the way *I'm* wired, those are *my* convictions. And I truly don't believe that my convictions are criminalizing anyone or sending them to jail. IMO that's happening because "they" keep taking more and more freedoms away from us, and we as a nation sit back and just watch it happen. I don't think being rebels about it is really the answer either....

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#68 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 11:49 AM
 
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I do know that there's no foreseeable circumstance in which I would choose myself for whatever reason over my child. 

I've gotten totally sucked into the thread because I read the whole darned thing!  :rotflmao

 

To this I would say that I think this is maybe a matter of semantics. And maybe how we view something like alcohol and pot (which I can't relate to because I don't like it). I do like to drink. I also don't think the phrase or concept "no amount has been proven save" is very meaningful. I know that a certain amount (which I recall being a fairly large amount) has been proven to increase negative outcomes (FAS and the like). So, I will partake during pregnancy - late in the pregnancy, small amounts of wine or beer. This does not feel at all like I am choosing myself over my child. Anymore than, perhaps eating soft cheese or oysters (or whatever is on that growing list of foods that pregnant women are advised to avoid) during pregnancy seems like that to another parent. 

 

I will also say that parenting seems to me to be an endurance race. ;-)  Pregnancy is NO  time to start making unnecessary sacrifices for our kids. If a slice of brie feels like a safe enough choice for you -- go for it! IMO, same goes for a small amount of beer or wine. 

 

We mothers need to pace ourselves in the self-sacrifice department 'cuz there's plenty of it to go around. ;-)  

 

Expressing this attitude to a mother who is struggling with pregnancy and all that it means in terms of sacrifice may help her get through to the second or third trimester and limit what she takes. Of course, the AAP ACOG seems to think a message of moderation will confuse mothers. I happen to disagree, at least in terms of person to person advice or opinion giving. 


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#69 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 11:56 AM
 
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As for pot (which was the other drug mentioned in the OP) I wonder if we (US) will have more open discussions about that and how it relates to pregnancy and nursing now that we (very recently!) have two states made recreational use legal. 


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#70 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 12:34 PM
 
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I think there's a whole study about the effects of marijuana on fetuses from Jamaican rasta babies. The ethical issues certainly are interesting.

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If we look at the reality of marijuana aside from its ridiculous DEA schedule status, IMO it would be best classed as a pregnancy Cat C med: potential harm shown in animal studies, no well designed, controlled studies on pregnant humans have been done. Women with severe anxiety and major depressive disorders are prescribed cat c meds for them all the time. I hope at some point mj can be used the same way. It certainly seems less harmful than self-medicating with alcohol.

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"I think this discussion boils down to a few questions. 1. Do the rights or health of an unborn child trump the freedom of the mother? 2. Who should decide what rules pregnant women should follow? 3. When does behavior change from a parenting decision about risk to a harmful decision for an unborn baby, and should anyone have the right to step in in these situations?"

 

Answering...

 

1. There is no real objective way to answer this. I kinda feel that the rights and health of an unborn child are as equally important as the mother's since they are technically the same living being, even though they are two separate people. It's really hard to say they have a different set of rights from each other in this manner.  

 

2. The pregnant woman is ultimately responsible for the choices she makes and is the one who decides what she is or isn't going to do.

 

3. Hmm. I suppose the line gets crossed when the woman proves she is unable to differentiate that difference on her own. I think that another entity should step in to intervene if it becomes obvious and certain that a pregnant woman is doing harm to her unborn child. This is hard to measure from a layperson so the best choice of whom that should be would be a healthcare practitioner. This is all generally speaking. Obviously it would be situation-specific.

 

"To me, a lot of these choices are "what about the fire" choices. If I have a sip of wine at dinner, and then we get hit by a semi on the way home, which choice should I have made differently? It could be argued that I shouldn't have gone out, because I would have eliminated the risk of getting hit, but then what about the gas leak in my house that I didn't know about? etc, etc. Everything we do carries risk. Should we be more cautious while pregnant? Yes. Should we lock our selves in our homes and breathe canned air to minimize risk, because we would do ANYTHING for our child? My answer is no. It seems like there is a large middle ground here."

 

I wish I were pregnant right now because I would want to ask my healthcare provider what he/she thinks about how far one should go to eliminate risk, and what is a reasonable expectation.


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#73 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 03:28 PM
 
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Then of course choose the right health care provider cause Lordy knows that risk analysis will vary widely. But at least we don't have to take personal responsibility cause a "professional said I should."
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#74 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 03:32 PM
 
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I wish I were pregnant right now because I would want to ask my healthcare provider what he/she thinks about how far one should go to eliminate risk, and what is a reasonable expectation.

We have a HCP right on this thread...maybe we can pour Katie a cup of coffee and she can tell us what she would say. :lol   

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Then of course choose the right health care provider cause Lordy knows that risk analysis will vary widely. But at least we don't have to take personal responsibility cause a "professional said I should."
 
True!  But, I will say that choosing a HCP that you respect and prioritizing their thoughts on a subject doesn't feel like abdicating responsibility to me. 

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#75 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 03:39 PM
 
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Then of course choose the right health care provider cause Lordy knows that risk analysis will vary widely. But at least we don't have to take personal responsibility cause a "professional said I should."

 

Oh geez, here we go again. All I was meaning was that I would love to get a HCP's perspective, hopefully several, on what "they" feel what behavior (s) are too risky during pregnancy... only out of curiosity. I always take full responsibility for my actions and never blame others for my mistakes.


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#76 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 03:54 PM
 
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I didn't mean it as a personal attack. It's just the notion of health care provider as holy that makes me nervous.
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I didn't mean it as a personal attack. It's just the notion of health care provider as holy that makes me nervous.


OK. I agree with you even though I have worked with and for doctors and my father is a doctor. They don't know everything. I am just curious as to where they think the line should be drawn.


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#78 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 04:38 PM
 
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I didn't mean it as a personal attack. It's just the notion of health care provider as holy that makes me nervous

I worry that a comment like this can be perceived as you thinking some of us here on this thread think that HCP's opinion is holy, which I'm sure is not true. 

 

Bringing this back to the subject of MJ and alcohol and pregnancy... I also wonder what a HCP would say, especially an OB.  I can share that my first MW (a CNM) was OK with a dark beer late in pregnancy and during nursing. At least as far as I recall (it was 12 years ago). I didn't really talk to my second MW about the subject. 

 

I re-read the ACOG's statement about alcohol during pregnancy (in light of some new-ish research that made the news). They are still pretty staunchly against drinking during pregnancy but like I said in a PP I think that is in part because this is the simplest message for the general public. I don't love that but I guess I can understand. That said, I'd be surprised if there weren't plenty of OBs who were pretty relaxed about a glass of wine of beer late in pregnancy. 


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#79 of 106 Old 01-14-2014, 05:16 PM
 
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For those curious about an OB's perspective: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3230800.html


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#80 of 106 Old 01-23-2014, 10:27 AM
 
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Why people think that pot is harmless is beyond me. Anything that has an active ingredient will have side effects even if it is natural. Pot increase risk of stillbirth.

 

 

 

http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2014/01/22/using-pot-in-pregnancy-linked-to-stillbirth-new-study/

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Since becoming pregnant I've attempted a lot of research regarding pot smoking during pregnancy. It's safe to say the evidence is quite divided. 
Maybe I'm looking for the "it's okay to smoke here and there during pregnancy" information, as that's what I'd like to hear, but I came across a very interesting study regarding cannabinoids, of which THC is one. According to this study, women's breast milk has two types of endogenous cannabinoids inherent in our breast milk composition. Scientists believe this is of life importance for a newborn, to kick start their nourishing themselves. Apparently these cannabinoids give the same effect that THC gives us, causing us to have "the munchies", and encouraging the suckling in a newborn to want to eat (and eat, and eat). 
This I found fascinating. The scientists in the study indicated that there seemed to be some correlation between these endogenous cannabinoids and uterine development, though they admitted more research needed to be done to better understand the relationship (and whether external sources of cannabinoids would have an equally positive impact on uterine development, etc etc.)

 

The fear surrounding the issue of ingesting marijuana while pregnant could prove to be quite limiting on very important science. Taking a hit to increase hunger, decrease morning sickness, calm nerves, ease depression, etc etc vs. taking a prescribed chemically manufactured pill of which a whole industry is propped up by limiting the furthering of a plant based medicine research, and telling us their manufactured pill is the only safe and tested way to proceed during a pregnancy... Hmmmm.... My innate sense is that there is something very biased about this information.

Aside from limited scientific research, I've read case after case of pregnant mothers claiming they've smoked their entire pregnancy with healthy happy babies. Unless those who have smoked and harmed their babies are just remaining quiet, why aren't more self studies indicating that this is one of the biggest no-no's during pregnancy?



 

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#82 of 106 Old 01-25-2014, 03:38 PM
 
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Alenushka- with all due respect, the article admits to more research being done to distinguish the effects of pot smoke from cigarette smoke. From the results from the actual study, "The most common individual drug was cannabis (OR 2.34 95% CI 1.13–4.81), although the effect was partially confounded by smoking. Both maternal self-reported smoking history and maternal serum cotinine levels were associated in a dose–response relationship with stillbirth. Positive serum cotinine less than 3 ng/mL and no reported history of smoking (proxy for passive smoke exposure) also were associated with stillbirth (OR 2.06, 95% CI 1.24–3.41)."

 

Also, this study was listed as Level of Evidence: II, which is only midlevel reliable on the scale, meaning that the quality criteria for listing something as reliably likely has not been met. Potentially indicting that these results would not be duplicated in another study, or were flawed in their applications. 

Not trying to start trouble, just really trying to critically analyze all studies I've read to form my own conclusions on the matter... 
I always go to the study itself, and not only a magazine article write up about the study (though, I do scour through those, too!)


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Lol ICM!

I emphasize how much we just don't know about mj's effect on the fetus, and while there is nothing glaringly obvious like fetal alcohol syndrome, that doesn't mean there aren't more subtle effects on the baby's health and brain later in life. There is also the danger of unknown pesticides being used on MJ crops. It's not a well regulated industry, you know?!

Lastly, where I live at least, it's illegal. That's important.

Really lastly- anything that decreases mom's O2 level is bad. Smoking is bad.

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:coffee


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Lol ICM!

I emphasize how much we just don't know about mj's effect on the fetus, and while there is nothing glaringly obvious like fetal alcohol syndrome, that doesn't mean there aren't more subtle effects on the baby's health and brain later in life. There is also the danger of unknown pesticides being used on MJ crops. It's not a well regulated industry, you know?!

Lastly, where I live at least, it's illegal. That's important.

Really lastly- anything that decreases mom's O2 level is bad. Smoking is bad.

Very good point.


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The argument that no amount is proven safe isnt very compelling for me.

For me it's that it's illegal, that's the huge one.
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The reason that it's illegal is political, more than anything. The general population seems to be waking up to the ludicrousness of this outdated and potentially negligent law. 

As for the pesticides on mj, a majority of the food supply of the united states is laden with pesticides, which doesn't seem to be too much in the conversation regarding the health of an unborn fetus.

 

What's good, what's bad? Who really knows? We each do what we feel is best for our chances of having a happy, healthy, competent child. Plenty a mom has followed all the rules, and in a cruel twist of genetics is delivered a less than perfectly healthy child. Plenty have delivered a perfectly healthy child. However, plenty a mom has smoked crack during pregnancy, and has delivered a grossly dependent child, but also, plenty have delivered a healthy, baby, too. (I know this is the far end of the spectrum, and that choice is full of risks that are unimaginable, and I would not advocate for that path during pregnancy, but ... really, in the end, we just don't know...)


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#88 of 106 Old 01-26-2014, 03:48 PM
 
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"The reason that it's illegal is political, more than anything. The general population seems to be waking up to the ludicrousness of this outdated and potentially negligent law."

It is a stupid law. Unfortunately where I live they sometimes sample newborn cords and of those show mj they use that to take the baby away. It is so immoral and so highly disturbing, but I could never risk having my family split up for a toke.
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#89 of 106 Old 01-26-2014, 05:34 PM
 
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My focus is on the illegality. In order to get it, you have to get it on the black market. If your baby pees positive at birth, you could lose him/her. I can look up the caffeine content of Dunkin Donuts vs Starbucks coffee. Good luck finding out how much THC is in your joint. No, I'll stick to prescribing ZOFRAN, thanks.

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#90 of 106 Old 01-27-2014, 06:33 AM
 
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It is such a sad sad thing for me to read that you'd stick to Zofran, a manufactured concoction of chemicals that we have ZERO idea of the long term impact to an unborn fetus, but rule out marijuana as a viable option for helping with the same thing. I think of the countless drugs that were recalled well after many to be moms ingested them, only to find out that upon further investigation are actually quite harmful. MJ, though illegal, for political reasons as we've already established, has been an earth growing herb for thousands of years. You'd think that by now if there was a glaringly dangerous impact from ingesting it during a pregnancy, it would be a common known fact. Zofran has been on the market for how long now? And it's list of ingredients are WHAT? and where derived from WHERE!?

It seems illogical to approve of a chemically manufactured drug because it's been "safely tested", but to deny a medicinal herb from nature that's been around for thousands of years. If you're against one, how can you not be against the other? If everything we put into our bodies will have a potential impact on this creature growing inside of us, how is Zofran exempt from that potential impact? 

 

On another note... whoa! Since reading further about drug testing for mothers and babies, I'm shocked at how as a culture we continuously allow our inherent rights to privacy and other things to just slip silently by the wayside without becoming ENRAGED!! How is the "keeping children and families safe act" keeping families safe when they are involving themselves in the lives of a newly formed family for pot! (but not for other drugs, which are way more harmful, just because they're doctor prescribed?) during a time when the family is most feeling the love and peace for the creation and bringing in of a beautiful new hope for their future? Or for a mother ingesting alcohol, which is not ILLEGAL to consume while pregnant, though it his highly ignorant... This seems like way to much of an infringement on my personal freedoms. One more reason why not to choose the path of the mainstream. Thank goodness home births are legal... for now... will we all stay quiet when a right such as this is taken away, mandating that we have no recourse from government scrutiny in any sector of our lives? 

Boy, this topic has certainly gotten my blood boiling for so many reasons... 
 

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