Fertility Challenged Graduates Thread - Spring/Summer 2014 - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 689Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 817 Old 05-23-2014, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
monkeyscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
I didn't do it, because it depends on which baby! We heard my son at 8w 3d, but this baby not until 12w and some days. (We tried at 8w 2d, got nothing.) Both had an anterior placenta, and thus far we're finding both heartbeats in the same spot - lower left side of my abdomen. This baby was also similarly positioned to my ds at the anatomy scan - I guess it must be the most comfy spot in my womb!

Also, lilac, I'm sorry you've been having such a tough time, and that your dh has been adding to the stress. I know how that goes. I hope he stays snapped out of his funk!
mainebaby likes this.

Monkey (30) + Pirate (28) = a forever family (5/10) - Baby Bird (8/12), our long-awaited first, and one (9/13 @ 7w 6d); PCOS
*4***8***12***16***20***24***28***32***36**40** Oct 2014 - it's a
monkeyscience is online now  
#122 of 817 Old 05-25-2014, 07:06 PM
 
lilacvioletiris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Battle Creek, MI
Posts: 3,046
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)

mainebaby, I can't honestly remember when I heard the babies heart beats with doppler. I heard them with the sonogram at 6 weeks.

 

AFM, so far so good with DH.  My youngest son had his first tooth break through today.  I was so excited called my mom and then called DH's parents.  I am hoping his extra fussiness lately is just teething.


Crafty Geeky lady (37, hypothyroid) married 7/2010 love of my life (42, azoospermia). I believe in MIRACLES! Twin boys born 12/21/13 at 40 weeks 2 days! 3/52 crafts in 2014 Ramsey's BS1: Done! 2/17/12 BS 2 goal: 6/7/17 no sperm initial DX 3/23/12 BFP 4/7/13!
lilacvioletiris is offline  
#123 of 817 Old 05-25-2014, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
monkeyscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Just dropping by to say...dh got to feel the baby today! I felt the baby on the outside for the first time early this morning. Baby's been wiggly on and off all day, but stopped whenever dh tried to feel. But he felt several good strong kicks a few minutes ago! Now I'm afraid baby is progressing toward the I'm-going-to-wiggle-insanely-every-time-you-lay-down phase that makes sleep so fun. Still, it's exciting to be feeling the baby several weeks earlier than last time. smile.gif
kewpie80 and tracyamber like this.

Monkey (30) + Pirate (28) = a forever family (5/10) - Baby Bird (8/12), our long-awaited first, and one (9/13 @ 7w 6d); PCOS
*4***8***12***16***20***24***28***32***36**40** Oct 2014 - it's a
monkeyscience is online now  
#124 of 817 Old 05-25-2014, 09:37 PM
 
tracyamber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,654
Mentioned: 146 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
@monkeyscience that is exciting about feeling your baby!
tracyamber is offline  
#125 of 817 Old 05-26-2014, 05:00 AM
 
lilacvioletiris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Battle Creek, MI
Posts: 3,046
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)

That is so exciting to be feeling the babies move!


Crafty Geeky lady (37, hypothyroid) married 7/2010 love of my life (42, azoospermia). I believe in MIRACLES! Twin boys born 12/21/13 at 40 weeks 2 days! 3/52 crafts in 2014 Ramsey's BS1: Done! 2/17/12 BS 2 goal: 6/7/17 no sperm initial DX 3/23/12 BFP 4/7/13!
lilacvioletiris is offline  
#126 of 817 Old 05-29-2014, 06:36 PM
 
Xerxella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Well we saw 2 heartbeats this morning. . Each in their own gestational sac. Everybody was measuring perfectly at 6w2d and 6w1d. (I'm 6w2d). Heartbeats were 120 & 121.

Phew. That's a relief. We have a hugely long race in front of us, but we've cleared this hurdle wonderfully.

Next ultrasound is Monday, June 9th at 7w6d. We'll just take it one day at a time.

I'd love to post a pic, but this new format doesn't seem to have that option from my phone.
kewpie80 likes this.
Xerxella is online now  
#127 of 817 Old 05-29-2014, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
monkeyscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
I hate the new site with burning fiery passion so far. :P I especially hate that it went down before I could see your update, Xerxella! A million jumping happy faces of joy for you! (smilies are also apparently non-existent in the new format. > ) Glad you get another chance to peek at your babies soon. And not trying to poke old wounds, but... have you gotten this far before with any of your losses? Or have they all been really early?

Monkey (30) + Pirate (28) = a forever family (5/10) - Baby Bird (8/12), our long-awaited first, and one (9/13 @ 7w 6d); PCOS
*4***8***12***16***20***24***28***32***36**40** Oct 2014 - it's a
monkeyscience is online now  
#128 of 817 Old 05-29-2014, 10:46 PM
 
Sourire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,493
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Xerxella - omg I'm super excited that you made it to the heartbeat stage. And 2 of them on too of that!!!! My fingers are crossed that all goes well and they turn into 2 healthy babies!
Sourire is online now  
#129 of 817 Old 05-30-2014, 04:05 AM
 
lilacvioletiris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Battle Creek, MI
Posts: 3,046
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxella View Post
Well we saw 2 heartbeats this morning. . Each in their own gestational sac. Everybody was measuring perfectly at 6w2d and 6w1d. (I'm 6w2d). Heartbeats were 120 & 121.

Phew. That's a relief. We have a hugely long race in front of us, but we've cleared this hurdle wonderfully.
That is so exciting Xerxella! Your next ultrasound is on my birthday. Looking forward to continued beating hearts.

Crafty Geeky lady (37, hypothyroid) married 7/2010 love of my life (42, azoospermia). I believe in MIRACLES! Twin boys born 12/21/13 at 40 weeks 2 days! 3/52 crafts in 2014 Ramsey's BS1: Done! 2/17/12 BS 2 goal: 6/7/17 no sperm initial DX 3/23/12 BFP 4/7/13!
lilacvioletiris is offline  
#130 of 817 Old 05-30-2014, 04:28 AM
 
hope4light's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: OH
Posts: 598
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Woot

X!!!!!!!!!!!! I am SOOOO excited for you!!! CONGRATS!!! A million jumping faces with balloons and party hats and the like.

(and I too am NOT digging the new format)
hope4light is offline  
#131 of 817 Old 05-30-2014, 04:38 AM
 
Xerxella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
I'm so annoyed! I really, really want to post a pic!!! I hate that we've lost all our options!

Monkey - It's no big deal. 5 out of 6 of the losses we never got this far. With one pregnancy it was monoamniotic identical twin girls (genetically normal). They looked great until they passed at 14 weeks. But, monoamniotic twins have a 50/50 chance at birth, so the general thought is that they died from their monoamniotic status alone.

And, thank god, these are each clearly in their own gestational sac.
Xerxella is online now  
#132 of 817 Old 05-30-2014, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
monkeyscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
That's great, Xerxella! Glad things are seeming very different this time.
monkeyscience is online now  
#133 of 817 Old 05-30-2014, 08:21 AM
 
tracyamber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,654
Mentioned: 146 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxella View Post
I'm so annoyed! I really, really want to post a pic!!! I hate that we've lost all our options!

Monkey - It's no big deal. 5 out of 6 of the losses we never got this far. With one pregnancy it was monoamniotic identical twin girls (genetically normal). They looked great until they passed at 14 weeks. But, monoamniotic twins have a 50/50 chance at birth, so the general thought is that they died from their monoamniotic status alone.

And, thank god, these are each clearly in their own gestational sac.
I really want to see a picture too. They are trying to work out all the site kinks.... I'm annoyed a bit too
tracyamber is offline  
#134 of 817 Old 05-30-2014, 03:52 PM
 
mainebaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Southern Coastal Maine
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Popping in to say hello. Congrats to Xerxella on the twins!! That makes two sets of twins, right? Amazing!

Hope everyone is doing well & growing healthy babies! Thanks to all who answered my Q about the HB. We heard ours Tues. & it was 160. US & BW on Mon. for quad screen. Anyone else do that screen (the one you have to do between 11-13 weeks)? I'll be 13 wks on Mon so I'm cutting it close

Hugs to everyone & all the lovely growing babies!!

mainebaby is offline  
#135 of 817 Old 05-31-2014, 12:32 PM
 
lilacvioletiris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Battle Creek, MI
Posts: 3,046
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
I skipped the quad screen because I knew I wouldn't terminate regardless of the results. I had also heard there were false positives with it.
lilacvioletiris is offline  
#136 of 817 Old 06-01-2014, 10:18 AM
 
Sourire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,493
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Mainebaby - I did the screening at 12 weeks, that was a fun ultrasound because you really get to see baby wiggle around. On the later ultrasounds baby is bigger so you only see small parts of it at a time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me (32), married to DH (35)

3 years of TTC #1, M/C @ 6wks in May 2013 angel1.gif
Mom to Liliana born May 8 2014 bfinfant.gif
mdcblog5.gif www.babythehardway.com

Sourire is online now  
#137 of 817 Old 06-01-2014, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
monkeyscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
We skipped the quad screen as well, since it's not a definitive test, just a risk assessment. I didn't feel the results would be useful to me. I like to limit ultrasound exposure as much as possible. (I don't think it's definitely harmful, but my basic medical philosophy is to avoid the unnecessary, and I don't feel most ultrasounds are necessary.) I hope your results are all very reassuring.
monkeyscience is online now  
#138 of 817 Old 06-02-2014, 03:28 AM
 
Xerxella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
I never did the quad screen with my 2 kids. As others have noted, telling me I'm positive because I have a 1 in 66 chance of having a child with downs is not helpful! So I have a 65 in 66 chance of NOT having a kid with downs?!??? And they call that positive?!!?! And I've had friends with worse numbers which just scares the bejeppers out of them.

I'll consider the materniT test if it's available and I get that far.
lilacvioletiris likes this.
Xerxella is online now  
#139 of 817 Old 06-02-2014, 06:49 AM
 
Xerxella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Let's see if I have figured out how to post a picture of my 2 black blobs:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6w2d Small.JPG (91.9 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 6w2d.jpg (203.7 KB, 1 views)

Married to one of the last good guys left Jim
Mom to AJ 4/07 and Genevieve 5/09

And then: I'm really, really tired of making angels.

But wait, could it really be true?


The whole story at: www.xerxella.blogspot.com
Xerxella is online now  
#140 of 817 Old 06-02-2014, 06:55 AM
 
Xerxella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Trying again....


Attached Images
File Type: jpg 6w2d.jpg (203.7 KB, 87 views)
shelley4 and kewpie80 like this.

Married to one of the last good guys left Jim
Mom to AJ 4/07 and Genevieve 5/09

And then: I'm really, really tired of making angels.

But wait, could it really be true?


The whole story at: www.xerxella.blogspot.com
Xerxella is online now  
#141 of 817 Old 06-02-2014, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
monkeyscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
I see them! They are beautiful blobs!

AFM, moving stinks. Could be much worse, and I'm quite grateful it isn't, but did the one ruined thing really have to be our mattress?? Making good progress on getting settled, but I wouldn't mind a magic wand right now. At least my one-year-old has suddenly decided he likes long naps! Meeting my new doctor next week and really hoping it goes well. Still nervous about hospital birth.
monkeyscience is online now  
#142 of 817 Old 06-03-2014, 06:01 PM
 
mainebaby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Southern Coastal Maine
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Apologies in advance for the lengthy post.

I only got the screen because Boston IVF & my midwives seemed to be suggesting I should get one, even though I have no family history of genetic abnormalities & am 28. I am actually pretty upset I decided to test, because I had a hellish experience with an ultrasound tech.

She spent about 40 mins painfully poking, smooshing, and SHAKING my belly with the US camera. She also had a bad attitude and said things like, "Here's your alien baby!" & "It's really not looking good." Apparently "not looking good" was a comment about the baby turning to the position she needed in order to measure the neck (nuchal translucency), but who says that during an ultrasound??

She had me walk around, lay on my belly, & eventually moved the seat to a ridiculous upside-down angle where my feet were as high up in the air as they could go and my head was down by the floor (about a 45 degree angle) and I had to grip the sides of the chair in order not to slide off. I had to stay like that for about 5 mins until I told her I was going to be physically ill. The baby flipped MANY times, yet not to the position she needed.

I was trying to limit my & the baby's exposure to ultrasound & here I've spent 40 mins with it?! After my husband posted our story on Facebook, a few of our friends have come forward with similarly negative experiences from the same place. Either way now all we're doing is two blood tests, the one I had that day & the second at 16 wks.

This was my first transabdominal US since the embryo transfer. I called the ultrasound dept supervisor & he said my experience sounded completely normal save the tech's attitude. How can this be completely normal?? Does everyone else get manhandled like this at their US appts?

mainebaby is offline  
#143 of 817 Old 06-03-2014, 07:50 PM
 
Sourire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,493
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Mainebaby - sorry you had such an awful experience with your ultrasound! I can assure you this is not normal. I had a great experience at my 12 week ultrasound, the tech was super nice and explained everything she was doing. I did not need to get into any weird positions and nothing was painful. However my ultrasound did last over 30 minutes because they were measuring a lot of different things, so that part is normal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me (32), married to DH (35)

3 years of TTC #1, M/C @ 6wks in May 2013 angel1.gif
Mom to Liliana born May 8 2014 bfinfant.gif
mdcblog5.gif www.babythehardway.com

Sourire is online now  
#144 of 817 Old 06-03-2014, 08:27 PM
 
Autumnlaughing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Western Massachusetts
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Mainebaby - I'm sorry that was so rough! It's amazing howmuch attitude matters sometimes. I seem to have skipped the 12 week scan, but honestly more by accident than design. I'll be doing the harmony blood test next Monday - I'm over 35 so insurance covers it.

Monkeyscience - sorry to hear about your frustration.... Moving is always such an endurance race for me that I can't even imagine doing it with a young child & pregnant!

Xerxella - cute blobs :-)
Autumnlaughing is offline  
#145 of 817 Old 06-03-2014, 08:53 PM
 
tracyamber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,654
Mentioned: 146 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxella View Post
Trying again....


Those are the cutest!!!!!
tracyamber is offline  
#146 of 817 Old 06-04-2014, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
monkeyscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Okay, I've been a horrible threadkeeper with all the moving going on. Settling in is still going on, but at least I have my desktop and internet back!

Please let me know if you need to be added to the roster, or you need to be updated in some way! And yes, if you are pregnant but aren't yet ready to be added to the roster, we still love you!
tracyamber likes this.

Monkey (30) + Pirate (28) = a forever family (5/10) - Baby Bird (8/12), our long-awaited first, and one (9/13 @ 7w 6d); PCOS
*4***8***12***16***20***24***28***32***36**40** Oct 2014 - it's a
monkeyscience is online now  
#147 of 817 Old 06-05-2014, 05:40 PM
 
Xerxella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
@monkeyscience - I'm definitely not ready to be added to the list yet. Maybe after the next u/s. or, maybe the one after that.....

@tracyamber - let me just say again how flipping excited I am for you!!!!!

AFM - I know you guys understand that there are bad days and good days.

Good days when I remind myself that everything looks fine. I've had NO indications of any problems. Every time in the past there's been some indication of a problem. My body HAS done this successfully twice before and there's no reason to think it can't do it again.

And bad days when I say each time something different has gone wrong. How do you know that something different won't go wrong this time? And what was with my initial non doubling beta? Failed triplet? Or a sign of other problems with these 2?

Sigh. Today's a bad day. I'm really trying to avoid excess ultrasounds, but I wish I had scheduled one for this week. I can't wait til I can feel them moving. Then all it'll take is a glass of orange juice to find some reassurance. If we get that far...

Last edited by Xerxella; 06-05-2014 at 06:44 PM.
Xerxella is online now  
#148 of 817 Old 06-05-2014, 08:44 PM
 
tracyamber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,654
Mentioned: 146 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
@Xerxella
No bad days!!!!!!!!!!! And if we have them we have to get hugs, so hugs to you mama. Finally getting pregnant and now making each milestone to get to the end is sometimes just as stressful. My last pregnancy, I did ultrasounds when ever I could to assuage my crazy brain and all is well. You do what you need to do to keep your head above water okay? Do you have a midwife? Sometimes making that call or having her check on ya can be reassuring as well.
Thank you for the congrats. I don't think I will quite come over till I can get my beta... Then my next.... Then the 6 week ultrasound.. Then....... I'm still a chicken at this point.
tracyamber is offline  
#149 of 817 Old 06-05-2014, 08:46 PM
 
tracyamber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,654
Mentioned: 146 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
@Sourire
I have a question for you. When did your milk come in after your surgery? Did you think it was beneficial to go into labor first to get things rolling?
tracyamber is offline  
#150 of 817 Old 06-06-2014, 12:32 AM
 
Sourire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,493
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Xerxella - I totally get the dilemma between the need for reassurance and the desire to avoid unnecessary ultrasounds. I ended up having 5 ultrasounds in my first trimester because I had a bunch of bleeding that really stressed me out. I worried about the possible consequences but after reviewing all the studies on fetal ultrasound exposure I realized that while ultrasounds haven't been proven to be safe, they haven't been proven to be dangerous either as most of the studies are inconclusive and most of the potential dangers are theoretical. Also the main risk factor is the amount of time the baby is exposed to the ultrasound waves, not the number of ultrasounds, and 4 of my 5 ultrasounds lasted less than 2 minutes because that is all the time needed to determine that there's still a heartbeat and the baby is measuring on track. Finally I felt that the stress and anxiety I felt as a result of not knowing whether the baby was still alive had the potential to be harmful to my baby as well so I figured that maybe the benefits of one more 2-minute ultrasound outweighed the risks.

Tracy - my milk came in when Liliana was 4 days old. She lost only 7oz in her first 3 days of life and was already back above her birth weight by the time she was 6 days old. I have nothing to compare my experience to but I do believe it helped that I went into labour on my own before having my C-section.
tracyamber likes this.

Me (32), married to DH (35)

3 years of TTC #1, M/C @ 6wks in May 2013 angel1.gif
Mom to Liliana born May 8 2014 bfinfant.gif
mdcblog5.gif www.babythehardway.com

Sourire is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off