Drinking beer while pregnant - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 07-09-2005, 01:46 AM
 
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In a very nonjudgemental way, I would like to point out that there was a study that found that individuals tend to believe studies that support their point of view. So really, we could argue science all day, but there are as many studies under the sun as hungry researchers, so I have no doubt that we will certainly not find the definitive answers to our questions here today. I can find the link if anyone is interested in my scientific POV that proves me right.

Ever notice how women's magazines will have one study saying one thing; and then the next month quote a study that says the opposite. It's to make you crazy and vulnerable to expensive electronic toys for your fetus. Mothering is fairly consistent because we like to find the studies that support our super-cool parenting, because we know all the other studies are wack anyhow. There was just a study out today from England that purports to prove all those cosleepers are just hoping to kill their babies, proving great-grandma right as I'm sure we'll hear next time we see her, but I don't believe it for a minute.

I think I'll go have a half-glass of wine and some unpasteurized cheese RIGHT NOW, you girls have made me so darn thirsty!

And the bottom line - everyone here cares so much about mama and baby alike that they took the time to find studies to show it. At least you're thinking about it and debating it instead of just doing what the Today Show hosts and Redbook said to do this week. Also good. America and Europe are very different, and I love it. My European friends think I'm crazy for not feeling like a drink one night; and my US friends think I'm crazy for wanting one another night; and my Muslim friends think it's gross to drink ever! And boy, do they all have studies to back them up. There's just no pleasing anyone.
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Old 07-09-2005, 01:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SoggyGranolaMomma
The other thing to consider is that theorists/scientist/medical staff need to exercise great caution when saying certain behaviors are ok during pregnancy. It is our nature as humans to "overdue" most everything, so if one study says one drink a day is fine, there is bound to be that mom-to-be who thinks therefore 2 drinks can't be "that much more worse" than one and so the cycle of abuse begins.
I've also seen this work in reverse, though. I've known people - be it pregnant women with alcohol, teens with drugs, or whatever - who look at it from the other side. It's kind of a "well, they say we can't have even a single drink, and that's crazy because mom/aunt/friend/cousin drank sometimes when she was pregnant with me/cousin/niece/nephew and he/she turned out just fine. They don't know what they're talking about and I'll drink as much as I want." I've seen it happen with alcohol and drugs.

It's a bit like telling a child not to grab glasses off the table because "you'll break it and hurt yourself". When that doesn't happen, they think you don't know what you're talking about.

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Old 07-09-2005, 05:24 AM
 
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Well, that is the choice that an adult makes. This is the argument "I was formula-fed and I turned out fine". Leading by example seems to be the best option on all of this stuff.
Fundamentally, there is no way that there ever going to be a ethical, moral and effective study done on what any given substance, from apples to thalidomide, does to a foetus. In order to find out how much is too much, we are going to have to damage several hundred infants- and this isn't OK with me. Furthermore, all the studies I've seen quoted HAVE been anecdotal in nature- how big is a glass of wine? A pub measure is one unit, but your average large household glass holds 1.5. Was that shot of vodka poured in a pub or at home? Was it measured? What with? Was the pint of beer served in an oversized glass to allow for the head, or not? All of these things render the studies ambiguous, at best- I'd argue, potentially worthless.

Mrs Moe, I think you're leaping to assumptions here. I am recognising that you and I have different cultural values, and very different clinical standards of care- probably the least controversial I can find is that vaginal exams and pap smears are not uncommon during pregnancy in the US model of antenatal care. Over here, they're unheard of. Not to say that one way is better than the other, just different. We can argue until the cows come home about what an "occasional" drink is, but it won't achieve anything because of the stamp our local cultures have left on us. The problem is, the internet is a global culture and the way you express your views and assumptions can be quite offensive. Please think.

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Old 07-09-2005, 05:47 AM
 
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To the OP, what she is drinking seems like more than I'd drink and be comfortable with.
There are a lot of "old wive's tales" that have been passed down and she could be listening to those. My dh's grandmother who was a nurse advised me to drink beer at the end of my pregnancy and during nursing (to make good milk).

I personally feel comfortable with an occasional drink. I'm not all that into alcohol though so its not hard for me to be moderate.

For some odd reason though, especially in the first trimester, I've craved wine. Normally its something I might have on occasion (2-3 times a year) but I really, really craved it for a while. I tried to satiate the desire instead with grape juice.

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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Old 07-09-2005, 05:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Storm Bride
I am inclined to think that someone who is drinking two drinks every day is probably not the epitome of a mom looking out for her unborn infant's welfare - that doesn't mean it was necessarily the alcohol itself that caused the 7 point drop.
Exactly

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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Old 07-09-2005, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by flapjack
Please think.
I have thought. And I think it's wrong to drink while you are pregnant on a regular basis because.... your fetus drinks, too! I also stated many times in this thread that drinking on occasion was NOT the issue, but rather, drinking REGULAR basis.

It's a mute point posting in this thread, I feel rather frustrated at this point, and it's just not worth posting anymore if it is causing me distress.
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Old 07-09-2005, 03:13 PM
 
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I'm not going to enter this debate on either side because I haven't btdt yet, I agree that their will be studies for either side, history of drinking BUT I have been a special ed teacher and I KNOW that kids with FAS are MUCH worse off in the long run than even babies born addicted to crack or meth. That says a lot for me.

Oh, hey, I had a thought. I wonder if any study has looked at the type of alcohol ingested to see if that makes a difference long term. I know the serving is a serving thing. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about "Night Train" which has formaldehide and a number of other "yummy" ingredients while "Bud" may not. That type of thing could really throw off a study right?

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Old 07-10-2005, 02:00 AM
 
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Beachcomber has voiced my thoughts most eloquently, so I won't reiterate them

I do have one point to make, though. Mrs. Moe, have you noticed that you're posting on a board predominated by women (and men) who have, in many many ways, chosen to ignore "science" in favor of tradition? Let us enumerate the ways. Science tells us that we must vaccinate our children to keep them safe. Science tells us that vaccines hold no dangers, and that they certainly are not implicated in autism. Science tells us that circumcising our sons lowers their risk of AIDS and penile cancer. Science tells us that cosleeping is a high risk factor for SIDS. Science tells us we should never drink raw milk. Science tells us that there is no nutritional difference between organic foods and conventional foods. Science tells us we should give our children antibiotics for many simple infections (such as ear infections). Science tells us that homeopathics are bunk. Science tells us that ultrasounds are entirely safe and an accurate way to predict problems in a pregnancy.

Parents here have chosen to trust their instincts, using millenia of tradition and the practices of billions of people living in more traditional cultures to back up those instincts. And, honestly, one of those instincts for me was to drink a beer or glass of wine every once in a while when I was pregnant. Woman have drunk alcohol during pregnancy for millenia, in fact in many time periods and places they drank substantial amounts of it. And yet our world wasn't populated by village idiots. Somehow, Galileo managed to figure out that the earth rotated around the sun using primative instruments and mathematics, despite the fact that his mother would have drinken all of her water cut with ale or wine to kill bacteria during her pregnancy.

You know, seven IQ points really isn't very statistically significant, and many, many psychologists will tell you that we desperately need to stop focusing on that number. IQ tests are highly biased toward certain demographics. I've had that confirmed in classes about intelligence that I took as part of my *gifted* education program in high school, by my former roommate who was working on a PhD in developmental psyche (and administered a couple different IQ tests to me as part of a study,) and by my own experience taking a whole bunch of different IQ tests. Here are some things I remember from IQ tests: Identifying silhouettes (could it be that some people just don't have the life experience to identify Mozart?), arranging colored blocks or triangles to fit patterns on cards (an easy skill to practice, if a child had experience with manipulatives she'd have an advantage), vocabulary questions (rearranging letters to make a word - if a child doesn't know the word due to a language barrier, well, she'll never solve that problem; similarly, a child can't make analogies with words in a language with which she's shaky). Could it be that women who are more likely to drink a bit during pregnancy are of a culture that's on the short end of that bias stick? Very possible...

So, while I personally would be concerned about someone who's drinking heavily (and, as PPs have mentioned, your study about women drinking an average of two drinks every night is heavy,) I personally do *not* worry about an occasional beer with a good meal out at a restaurant, or a glass of champagne at a wedding, or a glass of wine at the end of a really stressful week. Like not vaxing or feeding my kids raw milk, that makes sense to me and your "science" does not.
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Old 07-10-2005, 02:46 AM
 
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Here are some things I remember from IQ tests: Identifying silhouettes... arranging colored blocks or triangles to fit patterns on cards (an easy skill to practice, if a child had experience with manipulatives she'd have an advantage)...
My husband is way smarter than me (and I've tested above 150 on every IQ test I've ever taken), but he can't do the kind of thing you mention here at all - not because of his IQ, but because he has a very rare and very severe form of colour blindness. There are just so many factors that affect a person's performance on those tests.

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Old 07-11-2005, 05:51 AM
 
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Science is theory in motion. Its always changing. There are SOOOO many factors in everything that you will never get 1 right answer. And just to add, those studies said 2 per day THROUGH OUT the pg. Of course drinking in the 1st trimester is going to up your risks of problems, way more than in your 3 trimester. I should say though 2 a day, everyday is a lot to be considered moderate drinking for anyone, pg or not. And as a pp mentioned, they should do studies on the different Types of alcohol, and the condition of health the mothers body was in during pg. Like I said, all to many factors to have 1 right answer. Trust your own judgement. And personally, once I reach what *I* feel is safe (in my own pg). a certain amount of weeks (32 for me) I will then have a beer or a glass of wine and relax in a bubble bath
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Old 07-11-2005, 08:17 PM
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I think it is better not to take chances, especially in the first trimester when the baby is developing. I cut out all caffeine and medicine and didn't even consider drinking when I was pg because I didn't want to risk the problems that can come along with those activities, this was extreme, but she was my one and only so I wanted to be careful. Plus it was only 8 1/2 months and knowing that I could always go back to my coffee after her birth helped me stay strong. I am sure that many people drink and have no problem, and research may be wrong, but when you drink it slows down your mind so I think that it is likely that it does have negative affects on the baby and their developing mind.
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Old 07-12-2005, 02:30 AM
 
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I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, as I just scanned the posts, but what about all those Mothers who didn't know they were pregnant yet and drank alcohol? I know that two weeks before I found out I was pregnant, I went out to dinner with my family, had some wine with dinner, went to a bar and had some vodka drinks and some shots. About four hours after I got home, I puked and puked and puked--till four the next day! I felt so awful when I found out about the pregnancy and thought for sure I'd screwed up. Well, DD was eight pounds, one ounce at birth and she is developing ahead of *schedule* so thankfully that first trimester binge didn't harm her at all.

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Old 07-12-2005, 03:42 AM
 
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think of our ancestors: they drank beer or wine because their water just wasn't potable, and they were capable of wonderful works of art and literature, so obviously not everyone was FAS.
i had a drink or two a week while pregant and my kiddo is just fine. i think it would have been worse for her health if i had been a big ol stress ball. i do yoga and swim and those sorts of relaxation forms, but there's nothing like one glass of good ol red wine to "take the edge off".
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Old 07-14-2005, 08:50 PM
 
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I must say that drinking a glass of wine or small glass of beer is far from selfish and far from risky in the later trimesters. If it helps a woman to relax and let her aching pregnant muscles and overactive motherly mind have a bit of help in letting go, then drink on all responsible educated mothers who can tell the difference between 1 drink and 12. I think most of us can right? I should hope so. Mrsmoe I'm curious if you would rather chose a hit of marijauna or the anti- nausea medication your doctor would prescribe for your vomiting? I think I can probably guess. Maybe you are taking all these university studies to the literal extream and living in fear.
And Yes, instinct is a great way for a mother to make choices for her body especially since a pregnant woman and mother is an extremely instinctual being. Assuming she is mentally healthy she will know what is right for her own best health and therefore her unborn childs health as well. It is all too often that doctors disreagard a womans natural abilty to sence her own body and they (most doctors) live in a world of avoiding lawsuits and liabilty. Unfortunately I would trust the advice of many "unqualified" individuals before many medical proffessionals, but that is the difference between you and I.
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Old 07-14-2005, 09:17 PM
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Mrsmoe I'm curious if you would rather chose a hit of marijauna or the anti- nausea medication your doctor would prescribe for your vomiting? I think I can probably guess.

Guess? So you would pressume to know what I would do, and your presumption is likely incorrect. I take nothing for nausea, and I had a great deal of it in both pregnancies.

I wouldn't give my baby booze after birth and I wouldnt' give my baby booze while in the womb, it's that simple.
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Old 07-15-2005, 12:20 AM
 
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I would give my baby booze after borth and I wouldnt' give my baby booze while in the womb, it's that simple.
Everyone else is quoting MrsMoe, I feel like I want to band wagon, too. Woooo-weeee this is fun!!!

Can we agree that we're all just making the best decisions that we know how?

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Old 07-15-2005, 02:33 AM
 
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I'd just like to note that beer is not 'booze.' 'Booze' typically refers to liquor, ie distilled (rather than simply fermented) alcohol; strong drink.
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Old 07-15-2005, 02:40 AM
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All alcoholic beverages have the same amount of alcohol.

One beer = one shot of vodka = one glass of wine.


Main Entry: booze
Function: noun
1. An alcoholic beverage
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Old 07-15-2005, 03:11 AM
 
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The truth: I drank though my pregnancy, never more than a single serving every few days, and DS is perfect. All trimesters. I'd challenge anybody to find anything wrong with the kiddo.

I'd stay off you neighbor's back; this "not even a drop" orthodoxy has more of a moral tone to it than a real medical one.
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Old 07-15-2005, 03:13 AM
 
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wow...this thread reminds me of one I started a while back when i was pregnant and decided to have a glass of champagne on New Year's. Very heated topic then and now.

I agree with Pamamidwife that this whole "all or nothing, no alcohol is safe" stuff we are told basically implies that women are idiots and aren't capable of common sense. I had a very occassional glass of wine throughout my pregnancy and I don't feel like a "bad" mother for not "T-totalling it" and "just saying no."

I very much believe in science, but often times studies are flawed or biased- I have just finished taking advanced courses on research design and now I read over all the "studies" I come across with a fine-tooth comb and I find a disturbing amount of studies from major universities that have classic flaws in design. If a study is poorly designed, it cannot be valid or reliable. Often times things like the effects of an occasional drink on a fetus are not studied in depth because these effects are not likely to be statistically significant and the researchers know that.

I personally would not feel comfortable drinking as much as the woman in question in the op, but it's her choice- it certainly doesn't seem like totally over-the-top binge drinking to me...

to me this whole topic is just fraught with judgement and everyone needs to just take a step back and take a deep breath...

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Old 07-15-2005, 03:17 AM
 
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I remember the champagne thread! :LOL

What a trainwreck that was. Back then, I was lurking in comfortable anonymity, but I was on your side, Lovechild!
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Old 07-15-2005, 03:23 AM
 
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Thanks eightyferrettoes! That thread was even more heated than this one- it was totally ridiculous- all of a sudden I was a bad immature mom for having one glass of champagne on New Year's :LOL the same tone of judgement is creeping through this thread.

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Old 07-15-2005, 03:29 AM
 
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Just delurking from this thread, but I remember the champagne thread too.What a nightmare. For some reason, this issue fascinates me. I've made up my mind, and I'm not likely to change it anytime soon, but I keep watching anyway. And my opinion isn't even all that strong! I don't think it's bad to have a moderate amount of alcohol, though, as a general rule, I'm avoiding it for this pregnancy. Lovechild, if you're a bad mom, then so am I. I had half a glass of wine on vacation last month. *shock!*
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Old 07-15-2005, 03:31 AM
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Thanks eightyferrettoes! That thread was even more heated than this one- it was totally ridiculous- all of a sudden I was a bad immature mom for having one glass of champagne on New Year's :LOL the same tone of judgement is creeping through this thread.
I don't think so. Nobody here said anything about about a single drink once in a while. The issue is regular drinking. I'm sorry if I made you feel like I thought bad of anyone for having a glass of champange on New Years or another holiday.
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Old 07-15-2005, 12:00 PM
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I must give my personal view, I drank with my son until he was 4 months, (not heavy but enough that I at 17 questioned my doc who told me not to worry, I had not drank enough to hurt my child) I did not know I was preg, tested negative and had a period 2 of the months, he was born healthy and normal, and tho dyslexic test above normal level on IQ test.
I find nothing wrong with a drink for a special occasion or a glass of wine here or there while pregnant, I worry if the mother is drinking more than a glass at a sitting, everyday along those lines.
Plus I find that beer makers market the non alki lines the very much the SAME bottles etc as the ones with alki in them, so I'd look to see if she was drinking non alcoholic beer first before commenting, because she might not be having alcohol at all


Why are you on MDC?
the very nature of this site is built on listening to your intuition, medical facts and research would say that we are all stupid for home birthing with no meds, breast feeding past 6 months and on demand, not vac-ing, slinging and having attached children, and gasp co sleeping which is in their view worse of all for some, we are going to roll over on on kids in the night.
So I do not belong on MDC because I am an atheist and do not believe in intuition? Wow.
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Old 07-15-2005, 02:35 PM
 
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I don't think so. Nobody here said anything about about a single drink once in a while. The issue is regular drinking. I'm sorry if I made you feel like I thought bad of anyone for having a glass of champange on New Years or another holiday.
no you didn't make me feel bad! I was just commenting on how the negative vibes in this thread remind me sooooo much of that thread (which was worse believe me )

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Old 07-15-2005, 03:57 PM
 
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no you didn't make me feel bad! I was just commenting on how the negative vibes in this thread remind me sooooo much of that thread (which was worse believe me )
I remember that thread.. :LOL I posted on it about Jack Newmans articles.. which to me provided some pretty fascinating evidence about the whole blood alcohol level thing..
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Old 07-15-2005, 04:30 PM
 
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Would you be able to post a link to those articles? I'm really interested in reading them...

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Old 07-15-2005, 05:21 PM
 
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I'm an athiest and I believe in intuition. I don't think intuition has any connection at all to faith or spirituality. To me, it's simply a combination of learned experience, common sense and instinct. Granted, intuition is not necessarily "rational" but that's part of it's value, in my experience. If humans didn't possess intuition and instinct, we would never have made it out of the Stone Age.

The Dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster definitions of intuition makes no mention of faith, spirituality, religion or the supernatural.

Dictionary.com:
1.
1. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition. See Synonyms at reason.
2. Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.
2. A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.
Merriam-Webster:
1 : quick and ready insight
2 a : immediate apprehension or cognition b : knowledge or conviction gained by intuition c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference

That said, I don't think you need to believe in the validity of intuition to post here. All you need is to love your children and want what's best for them. There are hundreds of different perspectives from very devoutly christian to athiest, from crunchy granola to liberal to conservative. 99% of the time, we can coexist quite peacefully.

Weary SuperMama superhero.gifto my  amazing neurodiverse 6 y.o. DD hearts.gif and to my on-the-go neurotypical 3 y.o. DS wild.gif

beachcomber is offline  
Old 07-15-2005, 05:21 PM
 
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I think actually that everybody in this discussion actually agrees, we are all on the same page that drinking regularly is harmful. and mrsmoe has said a few times that on occasion is fine.

as for being judgmental, i agree that mrsmoe is going overboard a bit, but don't we all judge people on a day-to-day basis? for ex, if you saw a parent hit their child in public, what's the first thought that would go into your head? probably a judgement. certainly we're not always correct but i do think it's normal to make inferences about people when you observe them doing something that hits a nerve. personally, if i saw my pregnant neighbour drinking two beers on 4 different occasions, it would raise my eyebrows some.

i totally agree that it's unwise to blindly believe every "scientific" study one reads. but people keep using attachment parening as an example to counter science, and, is it just me or are there a LOT of reputable scientific studies that support many of attachment parenting's characteristics (breastfeeding, gentle discipline, midwifery, even cosleeping now, etc). fact is you can almost always find "reputable" sources to defend either sides of the fence of almost any topic.

my 2 cents on the original topic. i do hear what mrs.moe is saying about why take the chance. it's true that the chances are pretty good that moderate drinking won't harm the fetus, but i doubt it's good for it. personally i have never felt a desire for a drink strong enough to take that chance, but that's just me. i wouldn't condone a pregnant person for having a glass of wine on a special occasion. it's true that it's none of our business but i agree with the poster who said that to some extent (that's where the fine line is tricky) if a baby or child is at a potential risk of mistreatment, it's nice when a community takes responsibility for being concerned.

but, yeah, this discussion isn't really going anywhere because mrsmoe keeps talking about excessive drinking when everybody else is talking moderate. i think we all agree on that matter.

just my two cents!
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