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#61 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 10:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by trmpetplaya View Post
If the doctors will not educate women about this issue (and why would they? They make money off the procedure...)
Interesting...here, women are very much advised against circumcision and often can't even get a doctor in the hospital after birth who will do it. They have to find someone later on in the community. They are definitely dissuaded in the hospital (and through hospital prenatal classes and public health). Is this not the case in the US?

4 kids under 10
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#62 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 11:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sanguine_speed View Post
Interesting...here, women are very much advised against circumcision and often can't even get a doctor in the hospital after birth who will do it. They have to find someone later on in the community. They are definitely dissuaded in the hospital (and through hospital prenatal classes and public health). Is this not the case in the US?
Erm... no. Drs. here often tell you you HAVE to do it. EVERYONE does it. Your child will get SICK if you don't do it. etc etc

-Angela
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#63 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 12:11 PM
 
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I'm more of a lurker here...

There is NOTHING I hate more than when my older sister comes back at me with the statement "Why did you do it THAT way??" I'm an intelligent person, and am responsible for my own decisions. I don't need to answer to her for how or why I do things the way that I choose to do them. Your cousin AND her husband need love and support at this time, NOT your judgement, and they don't need someone second-guessing their parental decisions, regardless of what your opinion is. They (as a family) are going through a lot. Even a message put in a sealed envelope to be read later is inappropriate. You've made your case - unless you want to really alienate them, leave them alone.
I think this is the danger of pushing information or viewpoints too aggressively. While admire the passion that many women here have on this issue, it is a wildly innaccurate assumption on your part that parents who choose to circumcise are not educated on the matter. When you are so passionate about an issue it is extrememly hard to fathom that someone could have all the same information you have and make a different choice than you. But, this is one of those issues.
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#64 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 12:18 PM
 
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They can't have the same information that I have. If they did, and chose to do it, I would consider it abusive. To know, and still do it is sadistic. I would rejoice if it were outlawed as a routine practice.

This is a tree on fire with love, but it's still scary since most people think love only looks like one thing instead of the whole world. *
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#65 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 12:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sanguine_speed View Post
Interesting...here, women are very much advised against circumcision and often can't even get a doctor in the hospital after birth who will do it. They have to find someone later on in the community. They are definitely dissuaded in the hospital (and through hospital prenatal classes and public health). Is this not the case in the US?
Sadly, this is so very much not the case here in the U.S. Yes, one of the worlds greatest super powers and we are that far behind so much of the world.

This is a tree on fire with love, but it's still scary since most people think love only looks like one thing instead of the whole world. *
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#66 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 05:20 PM
 
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i thought that it was against the UA to speak positively of circ.
That doesn't sound quite right.
I looked and didn't find anything in there. Maybe it's a separate UA on the circ forum specifically.

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#67 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 05:33 PM
 
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That doesn't sound quite right.
I looked and didn't find anything in there. Maybe it's a separate UA on the circ forum specifically.
Astrid is correct.

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Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent, and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations. We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to racism, heterosexism, classism, religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled. We will not host discussions that involve explicit sexual references and are cautious about discussions on volatile topics such as abortion, religion, and race. See statement of purpose below.
Directly from the User Agreement page. MDC is very anti-circ, all over the board. It's not a postive topic anywhere and if you see it, it's a violation of the UA and should be reported.
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#68 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 06:36 PM
 
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I am watching this thread closely. I really feel like some of the mamas who are here fall into three camps:

1. the advocates who know thier stuff, have done research and are well versed on the topic and fall in line with Mothering's view

2. the people who are mainly disagreeing with time and place of giving info

3. the new mamas who may not be aware of our stance on circumcision and have not fully explored this very important topic.

What I am hoping will happen is that the mamas in group three will learn something from this thread. It is a very important topic and I hope this thread may influence mothers in a positive way. It is the job of those of us who are fully aware of the ramifications of the long term effects of routine infant circumcision to educate those who are not looking into this as deeply as it deserves. To educate, we have to be palatable and not come across so bitterly/offensively that moms refuse to "chew" on the reason this is a huge topic.

I also feel like moms who have circ'd sons often find it hard to really examine this issue. Let's remember to be gentle and clear about why we need to keep our sons intact. I know that the idea of circ'ing is repulsive to many of us but let's not let our repulsion scare off women who may be open to learning more.

SO I am here, I am watching this thread. I have decided to leave it up for the time being as I feel it is important. I will ask that everyone follow the guidelines.

Thanks for understanding mamas!
Shannon
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#69 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 08:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by twilight girl View Post
I think this is the danger of pushing information or viewpoints too aggressively. While admire the passion that many women here have on this issue, it is a wildly innaccurate assumption on your part that parents who choose to circumcise are not educated on the matter. When you are so passionate about an issue it is extrememly hard to fathom that someone could have all the same information you have and make a different choice than you. But, this is one of those issues.
(bolding mine)

That's an interesting assumption you've made about our assumptions... considering that I, at least, specifically said in one of my previous posts that I was NOT assuming that the OP's cousin and her dh didn't know all the facts. I specifically mentioned that if they have indeed read all the facts then the information that the OP would be presenting them with would already be known to them.

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Originally Posted by trmpetplaya
If I was about to make this life-changing decision for my son without all the facts, I would consider it a grave disservice to my family to NOT be told more of the facts. I'm not saying that the cousin and her dh don't have all the facts, but if they do have all the facts, then they have already read the information that the OP will be presenting them with and it won't come as any surprise to them.
Nobody that I have noticed has even remotely suggested that the OP "push her information or viewpoints aggressively" either. I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas from, but I haven't seen any evidence of any of your accusations in this thread. Maybe I'm just totally missing them If you could provide the quotes you refer to that specifically state that the OP's cousin and her dh are ignorant or that the OP should relentlessly be pressing her viewpoints on her cousin or DH I would be more than grateful.

I am of the opinion that the OP should gently and tactfully give her cousin's dh the information. The choice is then in his hands. All the OP can do at this point is gently and tactfully give the info, and that is what we are encouraging her to do.

I will say it again: If I was about to make this decision and did not have all the facts, I would be very angry if someone decided not to inform me of them while they had the chance to possibly change my mind. If I was aware of all the facts then I would already know the facts I was being presented with and would not be offended or surprised by the facts. Either way, I would prefer for someone to have the care and concern for myself and my child to inform me than to potentially let me find out the hard way that I didn't need or really want to circumcise my son.

The OP is coming from a place of care and concern for both her cousin and her nephew. I don't see why several pps have a problem with her showing that concern. I understand (and agree with) the reservations about the baby shower and the OP will not be bringing anything up at the shower. Why should the OP not show care and concern for her nephew while remaining aware of being gentle and tactful for her cousin's sake?

Thank you for keeping the thread up, Chanley

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#70 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 09:05 PM
 
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Directly from the User Agreement page. MDC is very anti-circ, all over the board. It's not a postive topic anywhere and if you see it, it's a violation of the UA and should be reported.
Ah okay, I gotcha. Missed that earlier.

I know some moms on the board choose to circ and have elective cesereans, etc... And they may mention that in one of their posts. I was just wondering if that is really an automatic violation/deletion to say, "Hey, we've scheduled my c-section for the twins on April 30th. Wish me luck."

At any rate, sticking around reading the thread. I won't be circ'ing this baby if it's a boy but have three circ'ed boys already. As I mentioned in another post, we live and learn and sometimes we live to regret. Luckily I learned before another boy is forever altered.

I knew Mothering was where I wanted to be when I got pregnant because of it's highly educated and "crunchy" population. I never wanted my last son circ'ed and wasn't prepared for the doctor's bullying. I am stronger now and that's what matters.

Even though I choose not to circ, I still get wary of the discussions and forcefulness and I stay away from most circ discussions. It wasn't from those that I learned not to circ my next boy. It was from my own natural path and maturity over the years coupled with just coming by articles online as I read about natural family living.

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#71 of 81 Old 05-06-2007, 09:35 PM
 
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I knew Mothering was where I wanted to be when I got pregnant because of it's highly educated and "crunchy" population. I never wanted my last son circ'ed and wasn't prepared for the doctor's bullying. I am stronger now and that's what matters.

Even though I choose not to circ, I still get wary of the discussions and forcefulness and I stay away from most circ discussions. It wasn't from those that I learned not to circ my next boy. It was from my own natural path and maturity over the years coupled with just coming by articles online as I read about natural family living.
I'm so sorry you had to deal with a bullying doctor... that's so not cool! And not just because he was being that way about circumcision... I know a mama IRL who has four circumcised boys and one intact boy. It's a hard decision to make...

Circumcision discussions are hard no matter what... it's such an emotionally charged subject on all sides. In many places on the internet it's the pro-circumcision folks who are forceful and judgemental... I have to stay away from those places when I'm pregnant or I'll obsess over comments for weeks and my blood pressure just skyrockets. So I understand why you stay away from the discussions... I have to take breaks from them at least once a month for my sanity and health - even the ones around here.

I just honestly and truly believe that it harms the mother as well as the baby to not have the whole story (not saying everyone who circumcises doesn't have the whole story - lest anyone be wanting to assume I am )... and in the US it's hard to learn the whole story because the majority of doctors just don't give accurate information : That's why I'm involved in these discussions.

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#72 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 12:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by trmpetplaya View Post
I just honestly and truly believe that it harms the mother as well as the baby to not have the whole story (not saying everyone who circumcises doesn't have the whole story - lest anyone be wanting to assume I am )... and in the US it's hard to learn the whole story because the majority of doctors just don't give accurate information : That's why I'm involved in these discussions.

love and peace.
this is very true of so many of those early critical issues like breastfeeding as well.

*sigh*
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#73 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 01:35 AM
 
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I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas from, but I haven't seen any evidence of any of your accusations in this thread.
I find the OP's original method aggressive. Obviously she herself realized that this was most likely inappropriate, which is why the post is titled the way it is. I am entitled to my own reaction to the posts, and many come off to me as rather aggressive.

Many posts have implied ignorance on the part of parents who circ, suggesting that "if only" they had the information, "if I could just educate them" ... variations of which have been mentioned throughout the thread, leading me to the conclusion that most posters assume that parents who choose to circ are all ignorant and don't know anything about what circumcision really is. The moderator's own posts implies ignorance: "#3. the new mamas who may not be aware of our stance on circumcision and have not explored this very important topic."

*To the moderator* I would request that the UA be changed to read that pro-circ posts will not be tolerated. As the UA currently reads, it only prohibits hosting discussions on the merits of routine infant circumcision. This thread is not *hosting* pro-circ discussion, and as the UA reads right now, posters should be able to respond from a pro-circ position. So, I would ask that the phrasing in the UA be made more explicit for clarity's sake.

I've been trying to stay on topic, which is "is this inappropriate." I still hold to "yes, it is inappropriate for a baby shower." This is something the OP should take up with her cousin and cousin in law privately at another time, in a different way.

You know, I don't like fur coats, I don't think people should buy and wear fur coats, but I can't endorse people who throw paint at people wearing fur coats. There are productive ways to further your cause, and there are ways to set your cause back. IN this case, whether or not I agree with her cause is immaterial. I just think that her proposed tactic would set her cause back, not further it.
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#74 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 01:36 AM
 
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And I am telling you I could NEVER EVER support someone who chose a medically unnecessary circumcision. It is not like we are talking about sling vs. stroller here or pacifier vs. not. It is a unchangeable, potentially life damaging not to mention totally unnecessary cosmetic surgery on a vulnerable child's most vulnerable parts.
I cant pretend to be okay with it. If someone is not fully aware of the complications and does it- I feel for them, as I understand how it feels to be "railroaded" by a doctor unexpectedly. I was prepared to tell doc no vaccines--- not prepared for the hour long bully session that left me vomiting and in tears and dd with holes in her leg.
Now I know better, when you know better, you do better, right?

my friend of 21 years just had a baby (a girl).. I was not in the least bit stand offish about informing her. I felt I had to educate her in any way I could to help her avoid going through what I went through. I would have been prepared to go to battle to prevent her from circing if it had been a boy. I would have been prepared to lose her as a friend if she was fully aware and chose to do it anyway. I would not associate with people who knowingly mutilated their daughters or sons....
When you know better you do better. Its my mantra.
But its not okay to pass off the decision like its nothing.
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i've been following this thread now and am really surprised at the number of posters saying to just drop the issue...i wonder how the comments would be different if the issue were not male circumsicion but female?
exactly.

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Originally Posted by twilight girl View Post
I think this is the danger of pushing information or viewpoints too aggressively. While admire the passion that many women here have on this issue, it is a wildly innaccurate assumption on your part that parents who choose to circumcise are not educated on the matter. When you are so passionate about an issue it is extrememly hard to fathom that someone could have all the same information you have and make a different choice than you. But, this is one of those issues.
no, its not. I was in nursing school- childless- and was MADE to attend circs. I made it halfway through one. I knew THEN that it was a grotesque, outdated and misrepresented procedure. I think if you choose to circ, you should have to watch a video of a few.
It is medical abuse. It is a human right to have your genitals stay INTACT until you so choose to change them.

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Originally Posted by Chanley View Post
this is very true of so many of those early critical issues like breastfeeding as well.

*sigh*

so true

ETA: I agree that some forms of activism can come off super aggressive and scare people away from the cause. But in this case, people need to be scared. There are babies being MUTILATED for hygenics RIGHT in our country. THAT is appalling. If my friend chose to shut the door in my face as I told her about circing, I would stand and yell facts until cops came... hoping ONE fact would get in enough to make her think, "OMG, I didnt think of it that way". And if it didnt work, at least I knew I did everything I could and more. And my friend would know why I wasnt around anymore.

If you knew a friend was going to remove her daughter's clitoris and that she was going to a doctor to do it, would you get a bit aggressive? In some states you could call the police, report the doctor and send them to jail.

~jen~ )O( mama to k 07/05 o 5/08 and c 12/09
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#75 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 01:45 AM
 
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I have never met anyone who was educated on the matter who chose RIC.

If I did, I could never have any friendship or any sort of relationship with them.

:

-Angela
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#76 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 02:41 AM
 
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I have never met anyone who was educated on the matter who chose RIC.

If I did, I could never have any friendship or any sort of relationship with them.
Sadly, I have met people who were educated about it (by myself) and still chose to do it However, the vast majority of people I know who were educated about circumcision did NOT choose to do it or regretted their prior decision to do it. I also cannot be friends or close with those who know the facts and choose RIC...

Thank you for clarifying, TwilightGirl. I appreciate it!

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#77 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 11:21 AM
 
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I have never met anyone who was educated on the matter who chose RIC.

If I did, I could never have any friendship or any sort of relationship with them.

:

-Angela

I whole heartedly agree with both of those statements.

This is a tree on fire with love, but it's still scary since most people think love only looks like one thing instead of the whole world. *
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#78 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 11:48 AM
 
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Sadly, I have met people who were educated about it (by myself) and still chose to do it
Yeah, I'm sure such people exist. I would not ever want to have anything to do with anyone who would choose RIC *knowing* about it.

ugh.

-Angela
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#79 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 02:57 PM
 
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I am one of those, that if someone had given me information 17 years ago, all 4 of my boys would be intact, instead of only my youngest 2. And of all the ironies, it was actually my FIL who finally asked us not to circumcise our boys anymore. Unfortunately, it wasn't until days after ds2 was cut. (I say it was ironic, because dh's biggest argument was, of course, that our boys look like him. We found out that FIL was intact, and dh had no idea.) I had already decided that no other boys of ours would be mutilated, after witnessing ds2's circ.

I don't think there is ever a *best* time to bring circumcision up. I am the type of person to be very blunt and upfront. My younger brother's gf was pregnant, and they found out it was a boy. As soon as he told me, I brought up the topic. He was VERY interested, and then disgusted when I told him how the procedure was done (and I have seen one being done....on my own son, which was horrifying). I gave him all the information I could find....statistics of intact men/boys in other parts of the world and the current rate of intact babies in the US, myths about infection and disease, the damage done to the penis during circ, etc. He was adamant about his baby not being circed, and was glad that someone had said something.

So, would I tell her at the baby shower? Maybe. But I feel that an baby boy's intact penis is a lot more important in the grand scheme of things than an adult's discomfort at a party. But that's just me.
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#80 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 05:33 PM
 
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I would just mail a packet of information with a heart felt letter expressing your love and concern for them and their ds.
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#81 of 81 Old 05-07-2007, 08:18 PM
 
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And of all the ironies, it was actually my FIL who finally asked us not to circumcise our boys anymore.
For me, that's the opposite of what we're going through. Though only my mom knows and no one else will until they SEE his intact penis (should I have a boy) my mother is completely against me not circumcising.

Besides the vanity argument of him looking like his father and brothers, her argument is the one I also used until I was more educated. And I don't even know WHY this was performed, but my grandfather had his penis circ'ed for some medical reason when he was in his 60s (?) and it was by far the most painful thing he'd ever endured. They pretty much go through what the baby does, except they don't fall into shock/sleep. AND he was a grown man who needed to walk around while his circ was healing.

Anywhoo, the main argument was that if that could happen to my grandfather, then we definitely needed to circ so it wouldn't happen to my babies, because putting them thru the pain early on when they wouldn't remember it is better than later when they GET health problems from the uncirc'ed penis.

Well, needless to say, years later I am educated and wise and if I have a boy he won't be circ'ed. I told my husband my wishes when I found out we're pregnant and he was quickly in the camp of whatever I want. His major concern was that we wouldn't know how to care for an intact penis and teach the child -- but being a smart guy, he knows we can learn. He's not worried about the vanity of it. Way to go hubby! Of course, like me, he didn't want to circ our last either and felt pressured into it. Never again.

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