Could we move the Israeli War threads into Politics? - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

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#211 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 04:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CathMac View Post

It's a matter of perception. If enough people report a perceived infraction then it is treated as disruptive even if doesn't quite reach the level of an actual UAV.
This is simply untrue.

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#212 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 04:33 PM
 
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It's a matter of perception. If enough people report a perceived infraction then it is treated as disruptive even if doesn't quite reach the level of an actual UAV.
I doubt that.

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Originally Posted by CathMac
In contrast, I wouldn't even bother reporting those types of things myself. Which is one less voice in an already teeny tiny quintet. So even if one or two people in that small group were to report a comparable violation --on principle alone-- then it seems extremely unlikely that the arguable violation would be perceived as problematic. In fact, its probable that they will be perceived as complainers.

So not only is the minority under reporting on the basis of size, they are less likely to report technical UAVs. And if they are anything like me they have a tendency to agonize over that final edit before hitting the send button, which can be time consuming.
I don't think mods base their decisions on the number of reports received about the post. I think they read the post for themselves and use their own judgement to determine if it's a UAV.

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#213 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 04:51 PM
 
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Cath--I do remember some of that creative editing. It's actually pretty simple to edit a piece to be deliberately inflammatory and that's against the UA.
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#214 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 04:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
I really don't see the point of pointing fingers in either direction.

Neither side has the monopoly on inappropriate posting.

I tried my best!
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#215 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 05:05 PM
 
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As someone who usually disagrees with CathMac's point of view, I'm also trying to understand what she is saying. I have seen and participated in threads that were pretty hard on her point of view but within the UA. Some definitely pushed the boundaries though.

I think what she's saying is that she would like the mods to read the posts sooner and moderate more quickly ("proactively") rather than waiting for reports. It's not so much "affirmative action" for conservatives as much as a lopsidedness which naturally happens if reporting is the main mechanism for zeroing in on posts. So not giving additional benefit to the minority point of view, but giving a nod to the fact that if a situation is greatly lopsided and reporting is the main way to find offending posts, it will be unbalanced. It doesn't mean paying more attention to minority posts or reports, but rather getting in front of the problem by not waiting for reports.

At least I think that's what she's saying.
Avent,
Thanks for making the extra effort to try and see where I'm coming from.

I think you come closest to understanding what I'm getting at but I can't make it any clearer without using actual examples which would clearly violate Rules 7 & 8.

But I will ever so slightly tippy toe out on a limb and hint that somewhere, not to far from here, is an example of the type of playful jab that some members seem to get dinged for and others don't. Which is especially unfair if it's more "playful" than "jab".

But often that is in the eye of the beholder, or more specifically, the member reporting it. And that gets magnified by the number of people reporting it or de-emphasized by the lack of reporting. (It's a tree in the forest kind of thing only with one or two people there to witness it instead of none)

Slightly off topic but once upon a time I indulged in a little bit of McCain humor (originating from the number of houses and cars he reportedly has) that might have seemed to be at his expense but was meant more to satirize some criticisms of him, here and elsewhere. There were any number of technical UAVs in those two threads that most certainly would have been reported --and disciplined-- if Obama, and not McCain, had been the subject. Despite the fact that it was so clearly a complete and over the top goof from start to finish, replete with two links to pictures of the Flintstones' car (although one member missed that ) along with references to Dino to make the not so subtle point that McCain isn't a spring chicken. (see how carefully I avoided calling him old ... oops )

Trust me, there was plenty of Obama material to work with. I never "went there", except perhaps for the occasional remark partly out of respect for the fact that the boundaries for what was safe to have a chuckle over were very clearly set. The occasional affectionate reference to the size of his ears being the only example I can distinctly remember.

I can almost guarantee you that if there had been anywhere near the number of McCain supporters on the Politics board as there were Obama supporters, and especially if had I been an Obama supporter, then several people would probably have reported one or both of those threads and there's a good chance I would have received an Alert.

Context, perception, and reporting power might not be everything. But it's pretty darn close.

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McCains own 13 cars, Obamas own 1
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...t=yabba&page=2

Posts # 25
“This abnormal contravention of natural law would not bode well for his longevity in office except that he's half past ancient as it is. His unnatural abilities might suggest he could only get older, since the hands of time might actually start unwinding. Did I mention that he’s old? Like really, really, really old? Old, old, old.”

Post # 42: Does anyone know the average age of these cars?
The dinosaur's tragic death could have been easily avoided, if only McCain hadn’t let his infamous temper get the best of him and he had simply yielded the right of way. There are unverified accounts of how he careened through the intersection, and shouted epithets at innocent bystanders. ... You know, it occurs to me that if he suffers from any debilitating long term injuries we might want to reconsider the whole POW spiel. He was probably injured in this accident and it’s his own darn fault.
...
It’s all true, I found it on Cath Po and verified it on CathCheck. I can PM the links if anyone is interested.

Well, I admit I made up Bruno's name, but that’s just a little bit of artistic license.

Yabba dabba do.
In contrast, here is a parody I created of a particular posting style that I was advised against starting a thread with because it might be perceived as too inflammatory.

Quote:
Obama’s Wizbang and YouTube nightmares

Ah, the sweeping rhetoric express! Too bad it's a train wreck. Like most proverbial train wrecks, one can’t help but watch in stunned horror. You shouldn’t, but you just can’t help it.

Wizbang - What Happened When Obama’s Teleprompter Broke. Live appearance in Bristol, VA (appxly 3 months ago) -- Posted by Kim Priestap
Published: September 19, 2008 - 2:45 PM
http://wizbangblog.com/content/2008/...pter-broke.php


Ok, and this is just too fun a smack-down not to include:

YouTube - Letterman: Barrack Obama “Uh” Count:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEAO0lt4Dw&NR=1

There’s plenty more where these came from but, as scary as they are, they get a little old.

I’m going to shut my eyes real tight and hope and pray he was just having a really bad day. After all, you can’t take the teleprompter when you sit down with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Unless you make it part of the preconditions, er … pre-arrangements.
~Cath
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#216 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 05:05 PM
 
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But it should be obvious that if you enforce the UA based on the perception of Passive Aggressive posting then you should do so evenly.
Cath, in utter sincerity I say that if I were a mod and I pulled passive aggressive threads, I would have pulled just about every thread you started in politics during the election, because they seemed very passive aggressive to *me*. My perception is that most of your threads and posts survived, but that could very well be wrong. Do you feel like your stuff got targeted for passive aggressiveness and edited, while other passive aggressive responses to you did not? You might very well be right, but from a third party perspective, that did not appear to be happening at all.
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#217 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 05:13 PM
 
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Cath--I do remember some of that creative editing. It's actually pretty simple to edit a piece to be deliberately inflammatory and that's against the UA.
Missy,
In my hypothetical it is clear that it was edited for length. A cursory check using "word count" would make that abundantly clear.

And if I had the time and inclination to expand further on this hypothetical it would be equally clear that in the example given the poster was vindicated by another hypothetical poster that actually took the time to read the article, see what was cut out, and conclude that the meaning had not been affected.

I suspect that any hypothetical people that found it inflammatory would have found the article itself inflammatory if they'd actually read it.

All of this being purely hypothetical.

~Cath
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#218 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 05:22 PM
 
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Ok this point of this thread is not to complain about the mods.

The mods were NOT acting improperly.

The point of these threads are to discuss the closures.

We need to move on to actual productive discussion.

If people cannot participate in a manner that will work on a future solution, and not throw blame around please continue. I will NOT stop the discussion about this, I will just start removing people from Q&S.

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#219 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 05:24 PM
 
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FYI: If any of this has to do with this thread (not sure, but just in case!) please contact admin. All policy threads are moderated by admins, not mods.

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#220 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 05:41 PM
 
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Getting back to the purpose of this thread now...

Where can we discuss issues of racism and bigotry without being in violation of the UA?

For example, Limbaugh's recent interview. Normally, that would be in Politics. I think it needs be discussed somewhere because it contributes to a climate that has a direct impact on my parenting.
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#221 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:09 PM
 
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Getting back to the purpose of this thread now...

Where can we discuss issues of racism and bigotry without being in violation of the UA?

For example, Limbaugh's recent interview. Normally, that would be in Politics. I think it needs be discussed somewhere because it contributes to a climate that has a direct impact on my parenting.
I will go and watch it and let you know.

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#222 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:10 PM
 
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DELETED - My response didn't make sense once the post I was replying to was edited.

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#223 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:13 PM
 
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Ok, here's my question. The following facts have been established, yes?

1. N&CE was not closed b/c of Politics. Politics was closed b/c of N&CE. The Politics forum was not the problem.
2. The problem in the N&CE forum was the gruesome, TMI, "baby in microwave"-type threads.
3. The moderators didn't want Politics and N&CE closed.

In this case, why can't we just place a moratorium on the gruesome threads? Why would the problem not be fixed by requiring new threads to be approved before being posted (like TAO is now)?

Also, why can't we temporarily split Politics and N&CE into completely separate forums, so that Politics can be reopened?

TIA.
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#224 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:21 PM
 
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Ok, here's my question. The following facts have been established, yes?

1. N&CE was not closed b/c of Politics. Politics was closed b/c of N&CE. The Politics forum was not the problem.
2. The problem in the N&CE forum was the gruesome, TMI, "baby in microwave"-type threads.
3. The moderators didn't want Politics and N&CE closed.

In this case, why can't we just place a moratorium on the gruesome threads? Why would the problem not be fixed by requiring new threads to be approved before being posted (like TAO is now)?

Also, why can't we temporarily split Politics and N&CE into completely separate forums, so that Politics can be reopened?

TIA.
Part of the problem was the gruesome threads.

Politics isn't currently the problem.

We had planned on merging the two forums since the election is over. However with N&CE not going well we couldn't really do that.

We do not want two seperate forums, we need to sit down and work on what needs to be done whether that is permanent closure or something new.

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#225 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:22 PM
 
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Bowing out, because obviously, I'm very emotionally invested in this.

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#226 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:29 PM
 
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Getting back to the purpose of this thread now...

Where can we discuss issues of racism and bigotry without being in violation of the UA?

For example, Limbaugh's recent interview. Normally, that would be in Politics. I think it needs be discussed somewhere because it contributes to a climate that has a direct impact on my parenting.
Racism and bigotry belong in TAO.

However this video appears to be Limbaugh's assessment of Obama.

Limbaugh, despite being a media figure is so ingrained in Politics that we need to keep the political pundits in the Politics category.

I am sorry, it doesn't look like something we can have up for now.

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#227 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:36 PM
 
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We do not want two seperate forums, we need to sit down and work on what needs to be done whether that is permanent closure or something new.
I hope it comes back. As I stated in the war and politics thread, after seeing all the posts by different posters, I really feel like it was my tribe that got closed down. I know that's not the intention, but that's what it feels like to me. I feel like I have no place on Mothering anymore, because that's(and the posters who posted on NC&E and politics) my tribe, and it feels like we have been banned. It just makes me sad.
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#228 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:37 PM
 
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I hope it comes back. As I stated in the war and politics thread, after seeing all the posts by different posters, I really feel like it was my tribe that got closed down. I know that's not the intention, but that's what it feels like to me. I feel like I have no place on Mothering anymore, because that's(and the posters who posted on NC&E and politics) my tribe, and it feels like we have been banned. It just makes me sad.
I understand your feelings. They are completely valid.

I have always felt particularly close to those forums. I really hope we can find a resolution.


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#229 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:40 PM
 
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Is the problem of gruesome threads just being the fact that the thread titles are inappropriate, or that they are posted at all? Is it the stories about war, or child abuse or a mixture of all?

I don't know how there can be a N&CE forum without some crummy news, but I can see the need for some people who'd want things a little easier to cruise without having to see "17 children killed" sort of headline. I know on another forum I visit, the thread titles are really sanitized (ie Child abuse story), and it might have a word or rating so people know that it includes something upsetting.

Someone mentioned though (sorry, I can't remember who), that it's seldom the OP that is a problem, but some sort of explosion mid thread.

How about a rule of no sarcasm or rhetoric? I can be as snarky as the next person, but in a forum that is like a tinderbox, sarcasm and rhetoric can be that match. As much as I'd love to post something snarky even towards a viewpoint of say a political commentator, maybe it just doesn't fit in in that forum and just the facts ma'am would be appropriate.

What are the current methods of dealing with people who have UAV's in N&CE? I had an ideal, but it might be redundant, since I'm not completely clear.

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#230 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:42 PM
 
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Racism and bigotry belong in TAO.

However this video appears to be Limbaugh's assessment of Obama.

Limbaugh, despite being a media figure is so ingrained in Politics that we need to keep the political pundits in the Politics category.

I am sorry, it doesn't look like something we can have up for now.
That's what I was afraid of. It's what worries me the most about this.

It is political, but it's an issue that crosses over into our lives. When people hear public figures use racism to disparage the President, it becomes a societal issue; it affects how people respond to others and it allows those views into the mainstream media, reinforcing the racism tha is already there. If it's okay for those public figures to throw around racist language and views about the President, it becomes easier for others to demonstrate that racism around my kids. Part of my responsibility as a mom is to address that racism where I see it, so for me, and I think for others, it's still tied to parenting.
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#231 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:43 PM
 
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Is the problem of gruesome threads just being the fact that the thread titles are inappropriate, or that they are posted at all? Is it the stories about war, or child abuse or a mixture of all?

I don't know how there can be a N&CE forum without some crummy news, but I can see the need for some people who'd want things a little easier to cruise without having to see "17 children killed" sort of headline. I know on another forum I visit, the thread titles are really sanitized (ie Child abuse story), and it might have a word or rating so people know that it includes something upsetting.

Someone mentioned though (sorry, I can't remember who), that it's seldom the OP that is a problem, but some sort of explosion mid thread.

How about a rule of no sarcasm or rhetoric? I can be as snarky as the next person, but in a forum that is like a tinderbox, sarcasm and rhetoric can be that match. As much as I'd love to post something snarky even towards a viewpoint of say a political commentator, maybe it just doesn't fit in in that forum and just the facts ma'am would be appropriate.

What are the current methods of dealing with people who have UAV's in N&CE? I had an ideal, but it might be redundant, since I'm not completely clear.
Well towards the end we were starting to implement the Politics rule of "two strikes and you are out"

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#232 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:44 PM
 
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Part of the problem was the gruesome threads.

Politics isn't currently the problem.

We had planned on merging the two forums since the election is over. However with N&CE not going well we couldn't really do that.

We do not want two seperate forums, we need to sit down and work on what needs to be done whether that is permanent closure or something new.
Thanks for answering. I think I follow. You're saying that 1) the gruesome threads were only part of the problem, and 2) the other parts of the problem can't be fixed by moderating new threads. Have I got it?

I would like to request that whenever TPTB "sit down and work on what needs to be done," us members be allowed to participate in the process. Right now, we're not even 100% sure what all the problems are, so that makes it kind of hard to give input outside of conjecture and hypotheticals. If the community were given a list of the specific problems, I'm sure we could brainstorm to come up with solutions. In fact, I think we showed how well this process can work when input was sought about better tying the MDC website to Mothering print magazine.
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#233 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:44 PM
 
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That's what I was afraid of. It's what worries me the most about this.

It is political, but it's an issue that crosses over into our lives. When people hear public figures use racism to disparage the President, it becomes a societal issue; it affects how people respond to others and it allows those views into the mainstream media, reinforcing the racism tha is already there. If it's okay for those public figures to throw around racist language and views about the President, it becomes easier for others to demonstrate that racism around my kids. Part of my responsibility as a mom is to address that racism where I see it, so for me, and I think for others, it's still tied to parenting.
I don't disagree with you.

It is an issue and I really want a solution.

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#234 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 06:49 PM
 
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If you don't know what the problems were or are confused maybe rereading the stickies in News and Politics will help. They pretty clearly outlined the issues that have been going on over there for awhile.
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#235 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 07:00 PM
 
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If you don't know what the problems were or are confused maybe rereading the stickies in News and Politics will help. They pretty clearly outlined the issues that have been going on over there for awhile.
Ard, I think we should make you a mod!

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#236 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 07:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Missy View Post
That's what I was afraid of. It's what worries me the most about this.

It is political, but it's an issue that crosses over into our lives. When people hear public figures use racism to disparage the President, it becomes a societal issue; it affects how people respond to others and it allows those views into the mainstream media, reinforcing the racism tha is already there. If it's okay for those public figures to throw around racist language and views about the President, it becomes easier for others to demonstrate that racism around my kids. Part of my responsibility as a mom is to address that racism where I see it, so for me, and I think for others, it's still tied to parenting.
But if someone were to start a thread in TAO to discuss the impact of racism on society in a more general sense, it is also disallowed to include or respond with anything that ties into media such as public/media figures using racism to disparage the president? I was under the impression that these things could still be discussed, so long as the political aspect itself was not the objective of the conversation -- like if a mandatory vax law revision was proposed, it could be discussed in the vax forum, even though it's technically a political proposal being discussed. No? Or are there just a lot of unsorted grey areas there.
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#237 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 07:14 PM
 
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But if someone were to start a thread in TAO to discuss the impact of racism on society in a more general sense, it is also disallowed to include or respond with anything that ties into media such as public/media figures using racism to disparage the president? I was under the impression that these things could still be discussed, so long as the political aspect itself was not the objective of the conversation -- like if a mandatory vax law revision was proposed, it could be discussed in the vax forum, even though it's technically a political proposal being discussed. No? Or are there just a lot of unsorted grey areas there.
There are unsorted grey areas.

The Vax issue could belong in Activism or Vax. Even if we did not have N&CE/Politics forums it has an obvious place it would belong.

The Limbaugh thing not so much..I suppose if one wants to discuss boycotting a station Limbaugh is on it would belong in Activism but other than that I don't see a solution

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#238 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 07:15 PM
 
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We had planned on merging the two forums since the election is over. However with N&CE not going well we couldn't really do that.

We do not want two seperate forums, we need to sit down and work on what needs to be done whether that is permanent closure or something new.
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
I don't disagree with you.

It is an issue and I really want a solution.
I hope people are seeing that our administrators are saying this over and over again. They need time to come up with a better working model. the workload in N & CE as it was did not leave them enough time to work on solutions, so the forum has been closed. I have seen repeated posts form admin over the last few days stating that they want to work on this. I have not seen them say, "Forget about it, you're sorry out of luck and we really don't care what you think."

They clearly care about these forums too and are just telling us they need time to see if they can come up with a better working solution. I have yet to see a post from admin saying that this is how it will be forever; to the contrary, I see numerous posts saying they are committed to doing all they can - but the bottom line is they don't have time to come up with alternative solutions while that forum stays open.

Can we give them the time to do what they are trying to do? They want solutions too and are just taking some time to work on that. They have clearly been working for months on trying to improve things while the forum was open and that didn't work so they have closed it down for the time being.

I see too many posts where people are speaking as if the admin have said these forums will never, ever, ever, again be hosted here - but a quick glance over Abimommy's posts here tells me that that is not the case at all.

All they are asking for is some time to make MDC even better.
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#239 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 07:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
If you don't know what the problems were or are confused maybe rereading the stickies in News and Politics will help. They pretty clearly outlined the issues that have been going on over there for awhile.
I think most people know what the problem threads were, but most people don't understand the behind-the-scenes workings well enough (forum software, logistics of being a moderator, etc.) to know why certain solutions don't fix certain problems, or especially why certain types of threads are more problematic than others.
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#240 of 240 Old 01-23-2009, 07:29 PM
 
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I am going to close this for now so we can discuss the issues that have been raised so far.

Thank you everyone for participating.

Not all those who wander are lost 
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