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#121 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 12:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sierra View Post
Bear with me. I am a logical-mathematical thinker.

I have been around almost since the inception of these boards, way back before they were "MDC." I moderated for four or five years. I was one of two people considered for the position of Administrator many years ago, back in the days when there was only one Admin position. I helped write the web statement of purpose and parts of the user agreement. I feel I contribute and receive a lot from being here.

That being said, I have no idea if I have points and how many. I have been asked to edit at least once for something minor. Have never been clear if that counts as a warning. Having been a moderator, and having really (I think) helped create the foundation for this place, I am pretty confident I have a very good feel for what is appropriate. It doesn't mean I am perfect, but I do know what is okay and what isn't.

The moderators have to use their discretion in issuing alerts and warnings, which means the system will always involve some bias. In the case of the edit request I remember receiving, though I disagreed with the requested edit (I felt it was a poor use of human discretion), out of a deep sense of respect for our mods, I went ahead and did it rather than pleaing my case.

All that to illustrate the following point:



With an automated system, even though the same number of alerts and warnings would cause a person to be banned as prior to automation (overall rules haven't changed), now the human element of discretion is not available through the whole process. It is only available through the time of issuance of alerts and warnings. After that, the system taks over. Thus, at least for me, alerts and warnings seem more frightening.

I could see the automated system saving mods time. On the other hand, I can imagine that more folks will be seeking recourse when they get alerts or warnings because the fear of being knocked out of the system (without human consideration) is there. Doesn't this also take the precious time of volunteers?

I think the notion of being able to disolve points over time is an important one because it reduces fear, thus reduces the number of people who will be inclined to take minor disagreements to "the Kitchen Table."

I do understand that not all points accumulation is alike. That's the argument that is being made toward not having points disolved over time. But that's also an argument for not having an automated system at all-- that not all points accumulation is alike, and that there is always a need for discretion throughout the system.

So as long as we *do* have an automated system, shouldn't it be balanced in automation? If points automatically accumulate toward a banning, shouldn't they also automatically disolve?

I'm assuming that *someone* can override the system on either end. That if someone is banned, an admin could theoretically say, "hey wait a minute, that doesn't make sense in *this* case." Soooooo...then, if a person's points are disolving, but the rate of disolution doesn't make sense for the particular type of accumulation of points, then theoretically an admin could suspend disolution because it doesn't make sense in a *particular* case.

I'm willing to bet that for the vast majority, time *does* heal and people do outgrow many difficult behaviors. It seems like most of us should have the opportunity to come back into the good graces of the "parents" of this board.

I respectfully ask that the decision not to disolve points over time is revisited.
Wait a minute. Is the system going to monitor the boards and give the warnings or is it just tracking them? I understood that the mods were still doing this but the system tracked them and such.

So what I am asking is, am I getting in trouble from Abbimommy, or some big brother Orwellian surveillance system?
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#122 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 01:00 AM
 
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Hello Sierra

All the mods who were around then helped write the UA and things like that. I still consider myself one of the "moms" for some of the forums.

The suspensions do automatically dissolve. We will discuss the issue of whether or not alerts/points should expire.

I honestly hope more people do seek recourse. Even if nothing is turned over if people don't understand WHY something was deemed inappropriate I would prefer they understand than have resentment fester.

Recourse doesn't take time of volunteers, it takes time from admins.

We can override things.

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#123 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 01:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Wait a minute. Is the system going to monitor the boards and give the warnings or is it just tracking them? I understood that the mods were still doing this but the system tracked them and such.

So what I am asking is, am I getting in trouble from Abbimommy, or some big brother Orwellian surveillance system?
No no no system is "tracking things"

It is just a record, which is changed by *people* there is no program monitoring for alerts.

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#124 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 01:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama View Post
Was, as in no longer?
Yeah we stopped doing that.

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#125 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 01:09 AM
 
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I have a question about being suspended or removed, that just means you can't log into your account to post right? you could still vsit MDC to follow conversations, not that would be any fun... but you could come and read, just not post.


If a person's membership is removed are all their posts/threads locked from being viewed? are they deleted? or how does that work? Would their posts (well the UA free ones) still be visable or would threads be all cut up because a persons posts be removed?
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#126 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 01:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
We discussed that a bit. It will be something we can look at, people can always pm an admin and get a copy of all of their User Notes and we are always happy to discuss them.
We have user notes?

Why do I now have a feeling similar to that which I had toward the unassailable Permanent Record in high school?
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#127 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 01:22 AM
 
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Yeah we stopped doing that.
When did that stop?
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#128 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 01:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lightheart View Post
I have a question about being suspended or removed, that just means you can't log into your account to post right? you could still vsit MDC to follow conversations, not that would be any fun... but you could come and read, just not post.


If a person's membership is removed are all their posts/threads locked from being viewed? are they deleted? or how does that work? Would their posts (well the UA free ones) still be visable or would threads be all cut up because a persons posts be removed?
No because I know there are banned members in the Vax forum who's posts still show up in the archives.
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#129 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 02:31 AM
 
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OK, now this is a dumb question.

If someone presses "report Post" on another person's post ... does that count as a point automatically? or does a Mod look at their complaint?

If is automatic ... then couldn't someone just be mean and "report post" as a way to get revenge on someone they don't like?

I have a feeling I am missing something here ...

thanks

Liz

I really don't think I've had warnings or points but I have no clue because I had no idea all this was going on!

Kids. I got two of 'em.
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#130 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 03:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Theoretica View Post
My understanding though is that the decision to warn/alert someone is done by a human. The computer program simply keeps the tally and 'flips the switch' once a certain number are reached. The program doesn't decide who to warn or for what purpose.
Right. I understand that.

I realize my post was long. Maybe it was too hard to follow. I acknowledged in my post that human discretion was only being taken out of a limited portion of the process, in other words "the flipping of the switch."

Basically, my argument originated out of the administrative statement that points couldn't go back to 0 after some period of time because not all points accumuation is the same. In my mind, that same argument if followed logically would make the entire automated system problematic.

But, I also realized the decision had already been made about automating the system, and it seems to address a valid concern of moderator time useage. So my request is only that given the automated system, it be balanced on both sides of the equation to compensate for the fact that not all points accumulation is the same.

Quote:
ITA about having one alert at a time 'expire' if there are no further violations after 3/6/9/12/whatever months. I don't think they should ALL expire at the same time, I think it should take longer to 'heal' them...especially when someone has more than one for whatever reason.
Sure that seems reasonable, and is generally the type of thing I am asking for.

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If you don't mind me asking, why aren't you a mod anymore? Clearly it's none of my business, so feel free to not answer or decline, I won't be offended, I'm just curious?
All I will say is that I quit and devoted more time and energy to other things.

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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
Hello Sierra
Heya !

Quote:
All the mods who were around then helped write the UA and things like that. I still consider myself one of the "moms" for some of the forums.
Absolutely. I didn't say what I said to brag about my involvement or anything like that. That is so not my style (and I admit to feel sorta that you might think it is). But it illustrated my point. If I can't follow the rules, who can? If I am not a member in "good enough" standing here, who is? Like I said, I feel I give and receive a lot here, I've been here for "forever," and I basically think I qualify as a generally good citizen of the community. But I have no idea if I have points, and it certainly is a possibility.

Quote:
The suspensions do automatically dissolve. We will discuss the issue of whether or not alerts/points should expire.
That's what I meant, disolving/expiring points, not suspensions. Obviously if someone is suspended, they are suspended. Sorry if that was unclear.

Quote:
I honestly hope more people do seek recourse. Even if nothing is turned over if people don't understand WHY something was deemed inappropriate I would prefer they understand than have resentment fester.
I think for me that is another element of it all. I disagreed not with the rule, but how the moderator applied discretion to the situation. The situation was so clearly, from my perspective as someone with experience being on the other end of the stick, not noteworthy. But had I sought recourse, it would have been to what end? To be told, "yes, but well, this is the rule, and it could be interpreted as the moderator interpreted it, so the moderator was within her rights to issue the warning."

abimommy, I hope you have known me long enough to realize that despite occassionally speaking out when I feel something is unjust, I generally like to keep the peace. I chose to do that in that situation. And honestly, I haven't festered any resentment over the matter. It just illustrated my point, which is the only reason I brought it up.

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#131 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 03:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
There is no discussing it with the person who gives you the "Alert", ime.
That's the general feeling I've received for a while. I sort of remember that starting back when I was a mod. There was just more administrative "putting our feet down." The reconciliation end of things began to be less of a focus.

That said, I think suspending memberships is a fine and important part of running a reasonably "safe" board. I used to moderate because I knew moderation was needed.

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#132 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 03:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lightheart View Post
I have a question about being suspended or removed, that just means you can't log into your account to post right? you could still vsit MDC to follow conversations, not that would be any fun... but you could come and read, just not post.


If a person's membership is removed are all their posts/threads locked from being viewed? are they deleted? or how does that work? Would their posts (well the UA free ones) still be visable or would threads be all cut up because a persons posts be removed?
If someone was removed they could not log in and read, they could log out and read but they would lose 50/60 access.

It doesn't do anything to their posts, they are still there.

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#133 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 03:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CatskillMtnMama View Post
OK, now this is a dumb question.

If someone presses "report Post" on another person's post ... does that count as a point automatically? or does a Mod look at their complaint?

If is automatic ... then couldn't someone just be mean and "report post" as a way to get revenge on someone they don't like?

I have a feeling I am missing something here ...

thanks

Liz

I really don't think I've had warnings or points but I have no clue because I had no idea all this was going on!
Not at all. People sometimes report things that are not against the User Agreement.

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#134 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 03:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sierra View Post

Absolutely. I didn't say what I said to brag about my involvement or anything like that. That is so not my style (and I admit to feel sorta that you might think it is). But it illustrated my point. If I can't follow the rules, who can? If I am not a member in "good enough" standing here, who is? Like I said, I feel I give and receive a lot here, I've been here for "forever," and I basically think I qualify as a generally good citizen of the community. But I have no idea if I have points, and it certainly is a possibility.
Oh hey I didn't think you were bragging. I was just "yeah I remember that those discussions were fun."

You don't have any points. You have indeed been here "forever"

Quote:

That's what I meant, disolving/expiring points, not suspensions. Obviously if someone is suspended, they are suspended. Sorry if that was unclear.
You were clear, I was just saying "we have not discussed that, we would have to"

I don't have an answer for that question. A lot of people have said they would like for them to expire and I understand the points people are making, it would just have to be discussed. They have not expired previously.

I am really hesitant about having some things expire but FWIW, I personally recommended for a mod the person who sent me the best flame I ever received. (and she rocked as a mod )


Quote:
abimommy, I hope you have known me long enough to realize that despite occassionally speaking out when I feel something is unjust, I generally like to keep the peace. I chose to do that in that situation. And honestly, I haven't festered any resentment over the matter. It just illustrated my point, which is the only reason I brought it up.
I feel I know you well enough to agree there, I don't think you have festered any resentment but sometimes when I answer one person, I am trying to generalize a bit to answer more than just "Sierra, who I know and like" to also have it suit "x person who has yelled at me before"


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#135 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 03:49 AM
 
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Cool .

And now that I've thrown in my two cents, I am off to bed and hopefully a more productive tomorrow morning than this evening was for me (should have been writing a sermon, but played around on the internet after the kids went to bed instead ).

I'm pro-adoption reform, but not anti-adoption.
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#136 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 04:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Theoretica View Post
So you can get points for mustard, mayo, and ketchup abuse...just don't blame the lettuce :

I'm hungry now...
Mmmmmm :

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#137 of 142 Old 02-19-2009, 06:33 AM
 
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Ok I deleted a couple things that were addressing enforcement and staff

I would like to keep this discussion about the new system, if you would like to discuss enforcement and things of that nature please start a new thread or pm me.

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#138 of 142 Old 02-20-2009, 12:29 AM
 
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Each Moderator Alert will equal one point. An Administrative Warning will equal three points. Warnings, which will equal three Alerts, will be issued at the discretion of the Administrators. If a member reaches 9 points, the software will automatically suspend the account for a period of 30 days. After the suspension, if a member receives an additional 9 points, their membership will be removed. Please use the Questions and Suggestions forum for any specific questions regarding to this automation.
The way I am reading this is that 18 points means permanent banning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
No, it is the same as the old system actually

3 alerts=warning
3 warnings =suspension
6 warnings=second suspension
9 warnings=banned

So..18 points/alerts is the same as 9 warnings.
Isn't nine warnings the same as 27 points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by loitering View Post
But but but but...

If 3 alerts = a warning,
then 18 alerts = 6 warnings.

Right?
I think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla View Post
3 alerts= 1 warning
3 warnings=9 alerts= 1 suspension
6 warnings=18 alerts=2 suspensions
9 warnings=27 alerts= bye bye MDC
Now I am really confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
If someone was removed they could not log in and read, they could log out and read but they would lose 50/60 access.

It doesn't do anything to their posts, they are still there.
If they had been removed, why would they log out? Wouldn't being removed prevent them from ever logging in again?

I'm not stupid, I swear, lol. I'm just a tad confuzzled.

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#139 of 142 Old 02-20-2009, 12:41 AM
 
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Yeah I had gotten confused as well.

We are using 18 as perma banned so we are getting rid of the second suspension.

But that is for the automatic thing, no one has close to that and hopefully it will be a long while before anyone does.

We will be evaluating everything else.

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#140 of 142 Old 02-20-2009, 08:04 AM
 
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I am really glad for this thread. When I read the warning at the top of the page, I thought the computer was doing the monitoring.

What a scary thought. I figured that even though I try really hard to keep things going smoothly, if it were up to a computer, I might just get myself banned!

I think being a GA or a Mod would be cool.

I spend way more than the "required" five hours a week on here! :

So, if you are ever looking for a few more, I am always around.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#141 of 142 Old 05-10-2009, 09:16 PM
 
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I'm sure I saw instructions somewhere for checking your points. Could one of you be so kind as to post the instructions again or direct me to it. TIA!
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#142 of 142 Old 05-12-2009, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Go to your User CP in the upper left of the navigation tab at the top of the page. Should be right there

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