UC Forum Guidelines - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 03-24-2009, 02:17 PM
 
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What is the difference between, let's say, a 20 week pregnant woman asking a question on the UC board like "what should I do if my labor goes on for four days with little progress" and then acting on the given advice when that actually occurs, and that same woman saying "my labor has been lasting for four days now, what should I do? I can see the dynamics are different but isn't the UC board in existence to help women educate themselves? At any point during their pregnancy?

Having said that, I do refrain from giving advice on these threads.

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
It is relative, particularly in a community where we do support alternatives and informed consent.

If someone does see a "dangerous" situation why wouldn't they say something though? Or at least alert a moderator? I cannot imagine that people would not, why wouldn't they say something? No one has ever been alerted for saying "go to a HCP/Dr"

YEs, I think they do, in most cases, just as in the UC forum. So why is only the UC forum having such restrictions put on it?

Abi - I wish we were sitting having coffee together, I am afraid without tone, (and because of concisness due to NAKing, my posts come across as snottier than intended, and I apologize for that.
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:18 PM
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well, i'm not sure that follows per se.

i do see the issue of excessive burden on the part of the moderators, but i would also say that i do not see UCers or other posters giving "medical advice" on the threads in question, so much as providing information and context (such as using the Mothering article) in order to support their opinion as to why it would be appropriate to act in a given way (and in this instance, to go and seek medical assistance!).

i think my question is--what really is the problem? i mean, what are the moderators seeing in that particular thread as "giving medical advice."
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:23 PM
 
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Wow. I'm not a UC'er but this really bothers me.

It sure sounds like you are saying it's OK to come here to ask for advice about your sick child, or if you should ignore your dr's advice to supplement, or other advice in very *medical* situations, but when it comes to being in labor - advice is dangerous and cannot be hosted. Why are members intelligent enough to sort through advice with informed consent on other issues, but not birth (which most of us do not consider a "medical" event anyway)?

Amanda , mama to my two boys: N (10/06) and : A (7/09)
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:38 PM
 
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I think some people are confusing a hosted internet forum with a democracy. MDC and the mods have to make decisions that are in their best interests as a business, not what would make the most of us the happiest. They have made a decision, and I doubt us whining about how it's not fair is going to change their minds. Frankly I am amazed at the amount of medical advice that flies around here in the first place, but I definitely see the risk of hosting active labor advice threads. That is an acute event, and if it needs medical management, an internet thread is not any where close to an appropriate way to seek out that management. I can't really think of another medical issue that is discussed where an acute event is commented on. Also, I don't see how calming, private, and UC a birth can be if you're updating your status every five minutes.
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:39 PM
 
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I'm thrilled about this. Telling a woman in active labor to stay home when she's not sure what to do can potentially kill her baby. The UC forum went from only a select few would UC to it's a free for all, women coming in with no thought of UC before labor. Support during labor is one thing, asking for medical advice - no, if you need to ask, go to a midwife or doctor. If you don't know, you didn't research UC enough and probably shouldn't be doing it.

And yes, I did have a UC and feel qualified to post this!

Amy ~ Web Designing Single Mom to 4: DD14, DS12, DS5, DS3
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
This is what I was thinking, and unable to say. Is UC more dangerous than not vaxinng or not circing or not seeking medical help in other areas?
I cannot answer that question. It is different for everyone. I for instance am not at all a candidate for UC. I had an extremely medical pregnancy due to complications. Since it was a genetic issue I am likely to have the same thing happen again. I dare someone to find a midwife who would touch me with a ten foot pole.


Same with vaxes, it is different for everyone. For instance, I had a couple blood transfusions so I did consent to the Hep B vax for my son. Unless there is a booming drug and sex trade among infants, I don't think the same applies to everyone.

Not circing is the industry standard. Not circing is perfectly safe.

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Old 03-24-2009, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
YEs, I think they do, in most cases, just as in the UC forum. So why is only the UC forum having such restrictions put on it?

Abi - I wish we were sitting having coffee together, I am afraid without tone, (and because of concisness due to NAKing, my posts come across as snottier than intended, and I apologize for that.
It can be difficult to convey intent in this medium.

UC is not the only forum that will be having restrictions. We have plans in regard to the Practitioner forum and will be looking at some other forums as well.

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Old 03-24-2009, 02:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Maeve View Post
I would love to see some links, because I can't think any life threatening situations in other forums where people were consistantly told to stay home, don't seek any professional advice, etc and any posts that did suggest it were jumped on and/or outright deleted.

Posts have not been deleted from UC that were rational, expressing concern or kind.

The posts that were removed were defamatory, name calling or just pain rude.

As I stated, I would be more than happy to look at examples, but no on has ever provided me any.

We do not remove posts stating someone should go to the hospital. No one has ever been alerted for saying that either.

If someone is saying we delete posts just for saying someone should go to the hospital they do not have all the facts or they are exaggerating.

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Old 03-24-2009, 03:00 PM
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i think that, for me, there is a matter of confusion as to what is considered "medical advice" and also what is considered "asking for advice" and why the line is drawn "in active labor."

in the most recent post in question, the overriding advice of many was to get the medical treatment, to NOT UC, because not only was the woman not prepared, but also because of certain risk factors.

to my understanding, this was not medical advice. this was asserting that a woman should seek medical intervention.

with this, there was support for her *if* she chose to UC, which is not medical advice at all, but support.

so i think that where i'm confused is what we're calling what.

afterall, i want to play by the rules, so i gotta understand them too.
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Old 03-24-2009, 03:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mama Dragon View Post
I'm thrilled about this. Telling a woman in active labor to stay home when she's not sure what to do can potentially kill her baby. The UC forum went from only a select few would UC to it's a free for all, women coming in with no thought of UC before labor. Support during labor is one thing, asking for medical advice - no, if you need to ask, go to a midwife or doctor. If you don't know, you didn't research UC enough and probably shouldn't be doing it.

And yes, I did have a UC and feel qualified to post this!
I agree with this. I have had two VBAC UCs, yet I barely even read the UC forum anymore because of alarming and depressing situations. Women are being discouraged and pressured not to seek medical advice even when their instincts are telling them to go, even when they have medical contraindications to normal labor.

Not that I think that instinct and inner voice are all that you need to UC. I do not believe that. I brought it up because someone else upthread claimed that laboring women are being lovingly advised to listen to their instincts and go in to a HCP or hospital if they feel that they should.
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Old 03-24-2009, 03:08 PM
 
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I have been a poster to the UC Forum for over two years; it has been a great source of information, friendship and strength for me through two pregnancies.

I, too, feel that the UC Forum is being unfairly targeted. I have always enjoyed how much the MDC UC Forum is that safe haven for me during my pregnancies, births and post-partum. I am very saddened and dismayed that MDC is going the way of the rest of society in this action by basically declaring labor a medical event, necessitating "true" medical advice and negating positive, uplifting support from women who have BTDT. It seems to me that the forum disclaimer that previously existed, as well as the big banner at the top of every page that says the UC Forum is not intended to provide medical advice and should be followed up with a care provider were sufficient to explain that it is not to replace medical advice, if needed. HOWEVER, I have had lots of what some might deem "medical" questions during my pregnancies, labors and post-partum that have been answered by women on the UC Forum.

The very purpose of having the support of the UC Forum is for those of us who choose UC to avoid UNNECESSARY medical intervention in our pregnancies, labors, births and post-partum. It seems incongruous to me (as other people have pointed out) to limit this support only during labor! Because we also offer our experiences and advice (some might consider it crossing over into the realm of medicine) on non-labor related "symptoms" or medical issues. Also, as others have pointed out, this happens ALL OVER MDC, not just the UC Forum. The purpose, as I understand it, of MDC is support for those seeking natural family living advice from others who do it as well. I would say that a large percentage of MDC's forums focus on health issues--diet, vaccination, childhood illnesses, H&H, homebirth and more "conventional" pregnancy forums. They all do the same thing! So why, then, is the UC Forum being targeted?

I would seriously urge MDC to reconsider this issue.
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Old 03-24-2009, 03:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
i think that, for me, there is a matter of confusion as to what is considered "medical advice" and also what is considered "asking for advice" and why the line is drawn "in active labor."

in the most recent post in question, the overriding advice of many was to get the medical treatment, to NOT UC, because not only was the woman not prepared, but also because of certain risk factors.

to my understanding, this was not medical advice. this was asserting that a woman should seek medical intervention.

with this, there was support for her *if* she chose to UC, which is not medical advice at all, but support.

so i think that where i'm confused is what we're calling what.

afterall, i want to play by the rules, so i gotta understand them too.
We will try and clarify them a bit further then.

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Old 03-24-2009, 03:11 PM
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actually, it's not true. in the currently locked thread on the forum, the majority of people recommended that she get help. and, in nearly every post, i assert that if a person feels that she needs help, she should get it.

so, i don't know how that is true, unless you're asserting that i say it 'unlovingly.'
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Old 03-24-2009, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I agree with the above - IF a woman was being outright told be everyone - under no circumstances go seek medical attention while you are labouring - THAT would be an issue. The fact is, that isnt happening. Yes, you have women who say if I were you, I would stay home - but thats not medical advice - thats opinion. Most of the time UC'ers are the one's who say listen to your instincts. UC'ers arent against medical intervention, we are against needles medical intervention during a normal bodily function - labour. Many non UC'ers believer we dont want any medical intervention - thats a lie.

There are other life threatening situations - again the meningitis case recently (thread was closed yesterday) the poster who wasnt sure if his sons penis had a bad infection, the baby not gaining weight, heck - someone's newborn is coughing up blood...really? Who are we to determine what life threatening situations are valid enough to not warrant others' opinions.

I understand MDC is a private board, not a democracy - and I doubt very much that us talking here will change what has been done - but I can hope. But, this board wouldnt exist and wouldnt be as successful without the people using it, and if the people dont speak up when they dont agree with things then how is MDC supposed to know what its members want. Im aware there are many on MDC who dont agree with UC, and thats fine, but the point is - you cant be a naturally minded, advice orientated, liberal site and then all of a sudden say we arent allowed to give each other advice on those naturally orientated subjects.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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Old 03-24-2009, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
actually, it's not true. in the currently locked thread on the forum, the majority of people recommended that she get help. and, in nearly every post, i assert that if a person feels that she needs help, she should get it.

so, i don't know how that is true, unless you're asserting that i say it 'unlovingly.'
If we're talking about the same thread, there were indeed some voices saying to do what she felt she should. However, there was a strong and vocal contingent who were saying that she should not go in even though she wanted to, that it was all 'normal' (which someone online can not have any way of determining) and she should persevere and stay home. Someone actually even asked for her phone number to call her and tell her to stay home, and reassess each hour or some such. That baby could have died in an hour. The thread as a whole read as strong pressure to UC despite her feelings.

As I said, I have had two UCs. Had I posted online to ask for advice, I would not consider that to be UC at all. It is also irresponsible, similar to asking strangers on the street for labor advice. There is another forum here where such questions would be slightly more appropriately asked.
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Old 03-24-2009, 03:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
I agree with the above - IF a woman was being outright told be everyone - under no circumstances go seek medical attention while you are labouring - THAT would be an issue. The fact is, that isnt happening. Yes, you have women who say if I were you, I would stay home - but thats not medical advice - thats opinion.
Yes, it is opinion. But women are taking it as if it were medical advice, or in lieu of such when they want it.

In my opinion, it does not have to be 'everyone' saying something in order for it to come across as pressure. And if I am reading it as pressure, 28 months after my last birth, I can only imagine that a woman in labor, who is in a much more sensitive state, is also feeling it as pressure.

I think that this decision is a good one. Perhaps, if women don't have the UC forum to ask questions of during labor, they will seek medical attention if they feel that they should.

And perhaps there won't be women who are depressed after having a medically necessary c-section, throwing in the towel on nursing and cloth diapering because they feel that they failed.
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Old 03-24-2009, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mama Dragon View Post
I'm thrilled about this. Telling a woman in active labor to stay home when she's not sure what to do can potentially kill her baby. The UC forum went from only a select few would UC to it's a free for all, women coming in with no thought of UC before labor. Support during labor is one thing, asking for medical advice - no, if you need to ask, go to a midwife or doctor. If you don't know, you didn't research UC enough and probably shouldn't be doing it.

And yes, I did have a UC and feel qualified to post this!
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Most importantly the bolded, which is at the heart of these changes.
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:01 PM
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i'm speaking about this locked thread.

of the 14 posts in the thread, there is the OP and the closing thread, leaving 12 other opinion threads. of those, one is a reply by the OP and the rest are opinions/advice of others.

of those remaining 11, 6 assert that the mother should seek medical help. of the remaining 5, onse simply provides information on a specific condition and the link to the mothering article and another responds to that by simply asking the question about the particular situation (for her own insight/situation), and concludes with a hope for a nonintervenive birth but does not specifically promote UC. and then another explains her take on the research from that article.

there are two remaining posts which advise to think about this clearly and deeply, and to follow one's inclinations. one brings up following the protocols if one is going to go to the BC to avoid hospital interventions, the other takes a more "do what is right for you" approach.

No where in that post stream is anyone saying that she should absolutely NOT seek medical intervention.
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:03 PM
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also, how am i supposed to police how another person "takes" my words?

to me, the idea of "just having the forum present creates a situation where women avoid medical advice" is like what my friend is experiencing with her FIL who is accusing her lesbianism of being hte origin of his sons m-t-f transition.

just because lesbians exists doesn't mean that men will want sex changes. just because the UC forum exist, doesn't mean that women in labor will actively avoid medical attention because they can ask us for our insight.
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mama Dragon View Post
I'm thrilled about this. Telling a woman in active labor to stay home when she's not sure what to do can potentially kill her baby. The UC forum went from only a select few would UC to it's a free for all, women coming in with no thought of UC before labor. Support during labor is one thing, asking for medical advice - no, if you need to ask, go to a midwife or doctor. If you don't know, you didn't research UC enough and probably shouldn't be doing it.

And yes, I did have a UC and feel qualified to post this!
My thoughts exactly!

Anne, Mama to Conner 2/27/04 blahblah.gif  Gabrielle 2/6/06 W/LMC-TCS, Neurogenic Bladder, AFO & KAFO wearer, Neurogenic Bowel energy.gif & Delaney 5/12/08 mischievous.gif &  Beethoven cat.gif& Gizmo cat.gif

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Old 03-24-2009, 04:09 PM
 
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The life of the mom and baby are not threatened in labor! Oh my goodness!
Ever?

See, I think that labor and birth should be trusted.

Trusted to usually be normal, but occasionally dangerous.

Just like Mother Nature. It's not blue skies all the time.

Frankly, if someone has birthed before, and they know what "normal" birth is, and they choose to UC, they aren't going to be on MDC asking for advice.
They are going to birth their baby in the way that they choose, surrounded by the people of their choice, and the computer, most likely, isn't not going to be turned on.

And, just as frankly, how unassisted is it to birth while using an internet board as you HCP? Less or more "trusting of birth" to ask medical questions from your fellow UC advocates, or a midwife? Less or more "trusting of birth" to seek medical answers on the computer or a book?

I don't have any answers, but these are certainly the questions that run through my mind when there is a "in labor" thread on the UC forum.
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:11 PM
 
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We cannot delve into specific situations in this thread.

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Old 03-24-2009, 04:14 PM
 
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That wasn't at all the one that I was speaking of.
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What if a mama posts for support; something like "Im feeling really tired mamas, labour has been long at 84hours, I know I can do this - but can you send some vibes this way"

And people take it on themselves to offer advice? Is the OP denied that support of the UC community because people (most likely non UC'ers) cant refrain from offering advice.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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Old 03-24-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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What if a mama posts for support; something like "Im feeling really tired mamas, labour has been long at 84hours, I know I can do this - but can you send some vibes this way"

And people take it on themselves to offer advice? Is the OP denied that support of the UC community because people (most likely non UC'ers) cant refrain from offering advice.
Yes they are denied. MDC will not allow threads for moms in active labor. That is what is said on the closed thread.
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:19 PM
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FWIW, i did not use this board or any as my health care provider. i specifically did not seek a health care provider for my pregnancy or birth of my first child. through research and self reflection, we chose to UC our first child.

for me, these forums have been about exploring my thoughts and feelings regarding UC in general and specific, as well as finding information and support as needed.

i do not think that many women are using the UC forum in place of a HCP, instead, they realize--as i did--that a HCP may not be necessary for them, and support that such is the case, if it is.

with this, UCers are keenly aware that it is not always the case, and thus many of us assert that if you need it, you get it. and if you don't, then we support you continuing and workign through doubts and fears.
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
FWIW, i did not use this board or any as my health care provider. i specifically did not seek a health care provider for my pregnancy or birth of my first child. through research and self reflection, we chose to UC our first child.

for me, these forums have been about exploring my thoughts and feelings regarding UC in general and specific, as well as finding information and support as needed.

i do not think that many women are using the UC forum in place of a HCP, instead, they realize--as i did--that a HCP may not be necessary for them, and support that such is the case, if it is.

with this, UCers are keenly aware that it is not always the case, and thus many of us assert that if you need it, you get it. and if you don't, then we support you continuing and workign through doubts and fears.
Exactly. This is how I feel too.
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Old 03-24-2009, 04:29 PM
 
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What if a mama posts for support; something like "Im feeling really tired mamas, labour has been long at 84hours, I know I can do this - but can you send some vibes this way"
They can post it and have people pm them? What is the difference between private support and public?

Quote:
And people take it on themselves to offer advice? Is the OP denied that support of the UC community because people (most likely non UC'ers) cant refrain from offering advice.
UC was never support only.

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Old 03-24-2009, 04:40 PM
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accountability and learning from each other.

in many of the labor threads, we agree and we disagree. in private, we have a single opinion--mine or another's--with no accountability toward others or reflection of our opinion from others.

i find that it is the interaction beyond the OP that leads to the greatest insight for UCers and UCers to be, and creates a situation where we discuss what it is we believe, mean, and support.

of course, we assert that we support that a woman seeks medical help when necessary, that she considers deeply whether or not that is necessary before getting it, and we problematize or question whether or not certain situations may or may not be emergent enough in our own understandings.

in the link that i posted, i found it very valuable to assert that this woman should seek medical help considering the special situation in which she found herself. this was coupled with the traditional UC perspectives, but definitely a case where we found our selves accountable to our belief of the correct application of "medically necessary."

and, we had to do this without pressuring the mother because this is also against the UC ideal (and MDC ideal) of the individual making the informed decision.

these things would not happen if the respondents were all in private.
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