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#121 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 07:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamarootoo View Post
i'm not a UC'er either, but this seems so extreme. why not just put the legal declaimer in the UA and forum guidelines, and leave it at that?
:

Seriously... why not just put legal disclaimers everywhere... on each forum, in the UA, etc? Doesn't that make more sense as most (if not all) of us are intelligent adults who are making the decisions we really believe to be safest and best for ourselves and our families?

This is the most open minded place I have been able to find online. Frankly, I was disappointed at a lot of the UC e-mail lists because they have changed in the last few years that I wasn't on them. Now they talk about trusting God, etc, etc. What I want is INFORMATION. I want knowledge. And when I am in labor I want support from women who believe in ME, not people who tell me to just pray and God will make sure everything works out the way He wants it to.

I'm sad. That is all. I wish I had gotten pregnant 9 years ago (we tried for 10 years before this one) when the UC lists were like that. If anyone knows of a UC list were most of the posters don't talk about God fixing it all and UC being about 'trusting God' please PM me and let me know. Seriously.

Angela lactivist.gif, married for 14 1/2 years to DHtwins.gif, mother to DD 8-5-97homeschool.gif, DS 8-5-09 uc.jpgbabyf.gif, and SURPRISE!!! pos.gif due 2-17-12

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#122 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 07:25 PM
 
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i'm not a UC'er either, but this seems so extreme. why not just put the legal declaimer in the UA and forum guidelines, and leave it at that?

*sigh

another step away from mothering.com towards monitoring.com.
I asked the same thing~!
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#123 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 07:46 PM
 
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Breastfeeding Challenges

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1057136

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1059519

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1059690

Lie with a babe

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1059888


Health and healing
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...ight=well+baby

Special needs parenting
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1058084
"diagnosing" a posters child with asbergers or not...

Family Safety
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1057465
Advice about lead levels, to worry or not....

Here people are advising different then the ops pediatrician
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...nscreen&page=2

The Case against Circumsicion
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1057342
Very medical - and they are diagnosing without seeing.

So, will there be a general rule, no advice on anything?
The above thread people are advising against taking a baby to the doctor.
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#124 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 07:51 PM
 
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I only read the first parts of this convo and I don't have time to read all seven pages of it now, but I just wanted to write this. At first, when I read this last night, I was a bit upset by the new rule. I felt cheated, almost, kind of ashamed that I had had a UC that was supported by these boards. I felt let down that the UC boards were now going to change.

However, I thought about this last night in bed and actually came to the point where I came to agree with it. Please take this as coming from a UC-er who TOTALLY supports UC. I mean it. I wouldn't have UC'd otherwise.

But. If you are at a point in your labor where you are seeking outside advice... then let that be from a doctor or midwife or whatever. Self-doubt really shouldn't be a part of UC. Well, I guess there should be some element of it, that you have to conquer, the "I can't do this - no wait, I can!!" part... But that was also the same at my attended birth. However, I at no time wanted anything more than gentle emotional support from my DH. I didn't ask him for his advice or ask him what I should be doing. And I didn't ask anyone on here for that. (BEFORE, heck yeah. But not IN labor.) If I had been at a point where I didn't know and trust what was going on in my body, it would have been time to call in a professional, and their tests, and their ultrasounds, and whatever. It never came to that point for me. But I wouldn't have hesitated to go down that route. I wanted to labor/birth on my own terms, but it wasn't just lip service that "doctors are good for emergencies" - I was ready to go if it came to that. And privately I think some people on this UC board are coming to UC out of a place of fear or even, shall I say, hatred of the established medical community. And that's not how/why UC should be treated.

I dunno. I hope I'm making some sort of sense.
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#125 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 07:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
New guidelines for that forum will be forthcoming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gossamerwindweb View Post
:

Seriously... why not just put legal disclaimers everywhere... on each forum, in the UA, etc? Doesn't that make more sense as most (if not all) of us are intelligent adults who are making the decisions we really believe to be safest and best for ourselves and our families?

This is the most open minded place I have been able to find online. Frankly, I was disappointed at a lot of the UC e-mail lists because they have changed in the last few years that I wasn't on them. Now they talk about trusting God, etc, etc. What I want is INFORMATION. I want knowledge. And when I am in labor I want support from women who believe in ME, not people who tell me to just pray and God will make sure everything works out the way He wants it to.

I'm sad. That is all. I wish I had gotten pregnant 9 years ago (we tried for 10 years before this one) when the UC lists were like that. If anyone knows of a UC list were most of the posters don't talk about God fixing it all and UC being about 'trusting God' please PM me and let me know. Seriously.
How people perceive things different is interesting. In my perception, there has been a big shift (last six months, maybe, if i had to pinpoint it) on the UC forum towards "Just trust your intuition/god/etc. Trust your body (even if things seem to be off)" and away from the knowledge and information. I am not saying that intuition and trust aren't important to UC, but let's be honest- none of us are omniscient. I trust that things are likely to go right in a UC, but I also need to the information on what to do if things go off plan. And in the midst of labor, from strangers on the internet, is not the time or place to be hashing these things out.

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#126 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 07:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ChampagneBlossom View Post
But. If you are at a point in your labor where you are seeking outside advice... then let that be from a doctor or midwife or whatever. Self-doubt really shouldn't be a part of UC. Well, I guess there should be some element of it, that you have to conquer, the "I can't do this - no wait, I can!!" part... But that was also the same at my attended birth. However, I at no time wanted anything more than gentle emotional support from my DH. I didn't ask him for his advice or ask him what I should be doing. And I didn't ask anyone on here for that. (BEFORE, heck yeah. But not IN labor.) If I had been at a point where I didn't know and trust what was going on in my body, it would have been time to call in a professional, and their tests, and their ultrasounds, and whatever. It never came to that point for me. But I wouldn't have hesitated to go down that route. I wanted to labor/birth on my own terms, but it wasn't just lip service that "doctors are good for emergencies" - I was ready to go if it came to that. And privately I think some people on this UC board are coming to UC out of a place of fear or even, shall I say, hatred of the established medical community. And that's not how/why UC should be treated.
This exactly. Thank you for saying it so eloquently.

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#127 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by ChampagneBlossom View Post

But. If you are at a point in your labor where you are seeking outside advice... then let that be from a doctor or midwife or whatever. Self-doubt really shouldn't be a part of UC. Well, I guess there should be some element of it, that you have to conquer, the "I can't do this - no wait, I can!!" part... But that was also the same at my attended birth. However, I at no time wanted anything more than gentle emotional support from my DH. I didn't ask him for his advice or ask him what I should be doing. And I didn't ask anyone on here for that. (BEFORE, heck yeah. But not IN labor.) If I had been at a point where I didn't know and trust what was going on in my body, it would have been time to call in a professional, and their tests, and their ultrasounds, and whatever. It never came to that point for me. But I wouldn't have hesitated to go down that route. I wanted to labor/birth on my own terms, but it wasn't just lip service that "doctors are good for emergencies" - I was ready to go if it came to that. And privately I think some people on this UC board are coming to UC out of a place of fear or even, shall I say, hatred of the established medical community. And that's not how/why UC should be treated.

I dunno. I hope I'm making some sort of sense.
I do see your point - about doubt and needing to be sure and confident when you UC. But the change is all encompassing - no women in active labour are allowed to open a thread *just in case* she gets advice. So what if a mama in labour is posting how strong and confident she is feeling after her water has been broken for 36hrs, and she has had no contractions - no one is allowed to offer support: no women in active labour posting. What if she is posting because she is looking for a good song to listen to while she labours: no posting because she is in active labour. The quote from the recent closed thead is "we can no longer host threads for individuals in active labour"

So even though I disagree with what you said Champagne, the ban just isnt on adivce seeking - its on women in active labour posting. So not only do I disagree with the advice thing, I also think its wrong that women in labour cant seel support from friends - we all know how long labour can go, and some of us are quite isolated...some of our DH's arent that lean on me supportive type, some of our friends and family frown on our decisions - it is this community we come to, and now thats taken away.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#128 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 08:20 PM
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There SHOULD be legal disclaimers everywhere on this site. Absolutely there should.

Also, the brutal truth is, not everyone that posts on here are intelligent adults.
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#129 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 08:21 PM
 
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So what if somebody DOES want to chat during early labor? That's exactly how I spent the morning before DS was born (although I hadn't yet found MDC and my "online community" at the time consisted of a few message boards plus much, much, more time in a chatroom.) For some strange reason, I craved that "internet connection" during early labor yet did NOT want to deal with actual human beings in the room with me, talking to me, seeing me, etc. But to sit down at the computer and chat between contractions "felt right."

Now, I wasn't asking for labor advice- I did inform my friends that contractions had started, but mostly we chatted about other random stuff- what their babies and toddlers were doing, what I'd purchased for the baby,etc. And when "active labor" started, I didn't go near the computer (well, I paced past it repeatedly but I couldn't sit and type anything while in "laborland.")

So are there any restrictions in place regarding "random chat thread involvement by laboring women"? Can a woman post "I'm sitting here for a minute between contractions...Hey Sara, did that teething baby let you get any sleep last night?" Would such a post threaten one of those long chatty threads? Or does it only cross a line if she actually asks for help/advice/support about the labor process?

On a related question (and along the lines of the "is ROM labor?") is the question of "active labor" vs "early labor" vs "prodromal labor."

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19 (in Israel for another school year), Hannah, 18 (commuting to college), and Jack, 12(homeschooled)
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#130 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 08:26 PM
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Quick disclaimer, i am trying to read each and every post, but have not gotten through it all yet. But I wanted to add this now, before time gets away from me and I forget so please forgive me if I am repeating facts already in evidence.

I think as a society, we are all starting to take less and less responsibility for our actions. We live in an era where we are encouraged to hold anyone we can find legally responsible, rather than accepting our own part in it. I am not throwing these words around lightly or directing them at any of our MDC readers.

Its just that I think there comes a time where wise, smart, informed woman should be allowed to accept responsibility for their actions.

If we do research on a subject, make lifestyle changes because of our research and have positive outcomes then we applaud our brilliance. If we do research on a subject, make lifestyle changes because of our research and then have a negative outcome then we seek to hold the other people whose knowledge we asked for, personally responsible.

I have always believed that here on MDC, I am surrounded by Mamas who own their own choices and actions. Particularly on the UC forum. It seems condescending to me that I am now not going to be allowed to seek out the information I am looking for, because there is an assumption that I can not be responsible for how I choose to use that information.

These changes are very disappointing and I am surprised by them. I thought the UA was already clear on the subject. That these are personal opinions and should never be taken as gospel or instead of a trusted HCP. That you as the poster are ultimately accountable for your own choices and reactions to posts. It seems that we are veering down a slippery slope where soon we will all need a legal document signed before we open our mouths , or keyboards so to speak.

Okay I hope that sounded clear. I am as always rushing in between daily chaos as I know so many of you are too! As always, I post with nothing but respect...

wbg...constantly amazed by Z , cherishing I , inspired by P , adoring K and still getting butterflies when I wake up with B !
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#131 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 08:28 PM
 
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The spirit of the boards promotes informed consent. We aren't changing the other forums, the practitioner forum will be a bit but not the others.
Does that mean that someone can post in the general Birth & Beyond forum asking for advice while in labor?

What about hypotheticals? "What would you do if you were in labor and such-and-such happened...?"

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I think the change is a very wise move on behalf of MDC and will help keep women and babies safe.
In other words, there is the potential for people to be hurt because they receive bad advice. The flip side of that of course is that there is the potential for people to be hurt because they are prevented from receiving good advice. The mama-in-active-labor-with-GBS thread that got closed is a good example of this.
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#132 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 08:29 PM
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There SHOULD be legal disclaimers everywhere on this site. Absolutely there should.

Also, the brutal truth is, not everyone that posts on here are intelligent adults.
I agree with you, but does that mean that we need to all start being treated as uniformed adults? Should we not be allowed to be ourselves, and possibly lead by example? To raise the bar, instead of lowering it?

wbg...constantly amazed by Z , cherishing I , inspired by P , adoring K and still getting butterflies when I wake up with B !
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#133 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 08:50 PM
 
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My worry is where will these mothers go now for advice? I think the main problem is that women feel like they cannot trust doctors, that if they go to the doctor in prolonged labor or with their water broken longer than 24 hrs they will be forced to have a court-ordered c-section. I always thought that disclaimer on the UC forum protected mothering from liability. On the other hand, some of those active labor threads did make me nervous. It's hard to know what to tell someone in a difficult birthing situation and having UC'd once or twice doesn't make you an expert in birth. But it is good for a mom to have a place to vent her feelings and get emotional support during labor and I think that option should still be available for us.

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#134 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 09:00 PM
 
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I was going to add something... but I think I might actually be in early labour right now... so maybe I shouldn't.

(ok sorry, I'm contracting and I just couldn't resist)


but really... I dind't realize this ban would be from all labouring woman from starting threads... I'm confused!! why!? I was perosnally looking fwd to idling away early labour by chatting with my UC forum friends... *sigh*

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#135 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 09:02 PM
 
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so we'll just leave it up to the forum moderators to decide for us when we're allowed to ask questions, since clearly we're not intelligent enough to decide for ourselves when we need emergency medical care and when we just need some BTDT mamas to help us figure out what is going on.

i don't think most people would be shocked at someone calling their mom or their close mama friend in most of these circumstances. but when you don't have that IRL support i guess you should just run to a doctor for every little thing, just to be on the safe side? or maybe that only applies to childbirth.
Good point.

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#136 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 09:04 PM
 
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I was going to add something... but I think I might actually be in early labour right now... so maybe I shouldn't.

(ok sorry, I'm contracting and I just couldn't resist)


but really... I dind't realize this ban would be from all labouring woman from starting threads... I'm confused!! why!? I was perosnally looking fwd to idling away early labour by chatting with my UC forum friends... *sigh*
maybe you can start a chat somewhere else and we can come join you

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#137 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 09:26 PM
 
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So, will there be a general rule, no advice on anything?
The above thread people are advising against taking a baby to the doctor.
Obviously this bothers you. I can't spend all day arguing this issue the admins will talk about it again tomorrow and try to clarify. As I stated, *multiple* times and georgia stated we are going to be working on some other forums.

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#138 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 09:44 PM
 
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I'm still wondering about the definintion of "active labor" since threads are being closed using the reason of "active labor" but the poster isn't actually in the medical definition of active labor.

I know that the admins need time to discuss this and its a lot of questions, but it seems like a lot of things aren't being answered.

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#139 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 09:48 PM
 
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I'm still wondering about the definintion of "active labor" since threads are being closed using the reason of "active labor" but the poster isn't actually in the medical definition of active labor.

I know that the admins need time to discuss this and its a lot of questions, but it seems like a lot of things aren't being answered.
We are meeting tomorrow am to clarify.

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#140 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 10:01 PM
 
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We are meeting tomorrow am to clarify.
Thanks

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#141 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:15 PM
 
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but really... I dind't realize this ban would be from all labouring woman from starting threads...
I haven't seen anyone say that, except for a couple of PPs who seem a little panicky and are exaggerating things.

I really don't think that the mods here are going to be installing monitoring systems in people's homes to make sure that no laboring-while-typing is going on.

Furthermore, I don't think they care if someone is in labor and is chatting. I think there is a huge difference between "I've been in labor for 9 hours, it's harder than I remembered (here's why)" and "x seems to be wrong, what should I do?".
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#142 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:36 PM
 
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The life of the mom and baby are not threatened in labor! Oh my goodness!
sometimes, in fact, they ARE. i don't know how you could claim so unequivocally that they are NOT.

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#143 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:37 PM
 
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I'm still wondering about the definintion of "active labor" since threads are being closed using the reason of "active labor" but the poster isn't actually in the medical definition of active labor.

I know that the admins need time to discuss this and its a lot of questions, but it seems like a lot of things aren't being answered.

Hahaha.. Yeah.
I thought this was funny. Its true that it seems like the last few issues were with moms who had ruptured membranes but weren't in active labor.... that was the whole problem..

very clever.

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#144 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:40 PM
 
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This is what I was thinking, and unable to say. Is UC more dangerous than not vaxinng or not circing or not seeking medical help in other areas?
i think UC (the in labor questions, anyhow) is more like stuff that gets posted in H&H--like "my kid might have meningitis, what should i do?"

circ is different, vax is different, IMO because in those cases there are health ramifications but they aren't immediately.

FWIW i have usually seen people on the H&H board tell people in dangerous-seeming situations basically "get thee to the doctor." i don't know about UC because i don't hang out there much.

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#145 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SevenVeils View Post
I would be pretty alarmed if someone's child was in an immediate, potentially life threatening situation and they were here posting about it in lengthy detail instead of calling a doctor and asking, or a nurse helpline or something.
oh, i've seen it here. many times!

dissertating wife of Boo, mama of one "mookie" lovin' 2 year old girl! intactlact:: CTA until 7/10 FF 1501dc
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#146 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 12:01 AM
 
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ABBIMOMMY

I swear I posted this earlier today but its not showing up??...

I have a question for you that maybe you could bring up in your meeting tomorrow.

Hypothetically, If a UC'er who is in labor feels like she needs advice, is it ok for her to post she is in labor, state her problem, then ask for advice if the advice is PMed?
Thus making the advice not public?


I just think that instead of arguing over every detail, why don't those on the board who feel like they may want to get another wise womans advice whlie they are in labor, think of solutions.


on a side note:
There is a strange phenomenon on the UC board, though. women who have no interest in UCing will come to the UC boards for wise woman advice and even though they may not agree with the decision to UC, they can feel the wisdom that is posessed by these women and seek it.
Interesting...

however, women who are PLANNING OR HAVE PLANNED a UC usually do a lot of soul searching and decide that they are ultimately responsible for the decisions they make during labor and birth.

Some one who is not in the right mind frame may make poor judgement or feel pressured to do a certain thing in the heat of the moment.. Even someone who has done preparation and learning, when faced with a factor that had not been thought of.

I think the best thing to do in that situation could be to offer resources to the women seeking advice, but maybe refrain from directly giving that advice.
That way she may find resources that she hadn't seen before and can make a more educated decision with out emotion getting in the way??

I don't know...

I definately have mixed feelings on this issue.
No birth is ever going to be exactly the same, and sometimes weird situations can come up that you had not heard about, or whatever. It would be nice to be pointed in the direction of where you can learn about it, if thats something you need.

But I also agree that going online and asking for advice is a good way to mess up your intuition, which is what we all advocate doing, anyway...

Know what I mean?

respectfully,

aka: wannabeamamamia
SLC vegan mom to 2 boys- &
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#147 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by SevenVeils View Post
I haven't seen anyone say that, except for a couple of PPs who seem a little panicky and are exaggerating things.

I really don't think that the mods here are going to be installing monitoring systems in people's homes to make sure that no laboring-while-typing is going on.

Furthermore, I don't think they care if someone is in labor and is chatting. I think there is a huge difference between "I've been in labor for 9 hours, it's harder than I remembered (here's why)" and "x seems to be wrong, what should I do?".
Quote from Abimommy: "Hello,

I am sorry but I have to close this thread. We can no longer host threads for individuals in active labor.

Please read the forum guidelines."

located on this thread: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1059506


I will be interested to see what comes out of the mod discussion tomorrow.

I dont blame the mods, and Im not angry at them - I *know* they are doing what they believe is right, and what they believe keeps everyone safe and legally clear - I just think they need to give this issue more (maybe openminded) thought before they make changes.

Further, I think if this kind of change was going to be made, it should have been made to all the threads this advice rule is going to affect at the same time rather than forum by forum, or start with one that utilizes medical advice WAY more frequently than the UC board does (birth professionals etc..)

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#148 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:22 AM
 
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Further, I think if this kind of change was going to be made, it should have been made to all the threads this advice rule is going to affect at the same time rather than forum by forum, or start with one that utilizes medical advice WAY more frequently than the UC board does (birth professionals etc..)
The reality is based on on-going issues/concerns, trolling, etc. UC happened to be the most in need of our focused attention.

Quote:
I dont blame the mods, and Im not angry at them - I *know* they are doing what they believe is right, and what they believe keeps everyone safe and legally clear - I just think they need to give this issue more (maybe openminded) thought before they make changes.
For the record, I wanted to clear up that Moderators do not make board policy I don't want the responsibility for these changes to mistakenly fall at their feet. Moderators help to ensure that the User Agreement is upheld and the forum guidelines are followed. Moderators may or may not personally agree with a board policy. Mods are dedicated community volunteers who give generously of their time to keep the community running as smoothly as possible, and I just wanted to make sure that no one has the mistaken impression that they are off somewhere making changes. The responsibility for board changes rests squarely on the administrators' shoulders, for better or worse.


I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
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#149 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I apologize I have been using the word moderator when I should have been saying administrator. I am aware that the admins are the ones who make changes - and the mods just enforce the rules...

sorry for my mix up.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#150 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:32 AM
 
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Oh, no apology needed I realize that many members aren't actually aware that the Moderators are not the ones making the rules, and thus, the Moderators often are targets of unwarranted hostility. I was just trying to clear that up because it's a common misconception.

I think that was my PSA to be kind the Moderators and direct frustration/helpful suggestions to the right people I guess

Have a great night!

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
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