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#151 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
Quote from Abimommy: "Hello,

I am sorry but I have to close this thread. We can no longer host threads for individuals in active labor.

Please read the forum guidelines."

located on this thread: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho....php?t=1059506
This is what I mean. Nowhere does this say "nobody who is in labor is allowed to post here".

And I feel the need to point out to the PPs who are adamantly calling for this rule to be applied to every forum, that your arguments to make it 'fair' are just baffling to me. You don't want this rule in one forum, so you are going to try to make the same rule in other forums as well?

Misery loves company?
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#152 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by SevenVeils View Post
This is what I mean. Nowhere does this say "nobody who is in labor is allowed to post here".

And I feel the need to point out to the PPs who are adamantly calling for this rule to be applied to every forum, that your arguments to make it 'fair' are just baffling to me. You don't want this rule in one forum, so you are going to try to make the same rule in other forums as well?

Misery loves company?
It says MDC no longer hosts threads for women in active labour....

And the reason some are asking for it to be applied to other forums is because it is clear that this rule is not going to be lifted in the UC case - and we feel that if the "why" behind the rule is so that no one is getting medical advice from a non HCP, and so that MDC is not legally liable - than it only seems logical that this rule be applied to *ALL* forums where medical advice is given and where MDC could be held legally liable for what they read.

If I (and I think most of us who are in disagreement) had our way, we would just have that notification at the top of the forum that says *this is not meant to replace medical advice* and we would all be responsible for taking what we read and chosing whether or not to believe it. I would rather not be having this discussion at all and have things just be as they were.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#153 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:21 AM
 
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removing duplicate.
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#154 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 06:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
It says MDC no longer hosts threads for women in active labour....

And the reason some are asking for it to be applied to other forums is because it is clear that this rule is not going to be lifted in the UC case - and we feel that if the "why" behind the rule is so that no one is getting medical advice from a non HCP, and so that MDC is not legally liable - than it only seems logical that this rule be applied to *ALL* forums where medical advice is given and where MDC could be held legally liable for what they read.

If I (and I think most of us who are in disagreement) had our way, we would just have that notification at the top of the forum that says *this is not meant to replace medical advice* and we would all be responsible for taking what we read and chosing whether or not to believe it. I would rather not be having this discussion at all and have things just be as they were.
But there is obviously a difference between a woman who happens to be chatting online while in labor, and a woman who starts an "I AM IN LABOR ~ WHAT DO I DO" thread.

I think this is a good thing for mama's and babies. If you want a UC, have a UC... you shouldn't need answers to serious questions about GBS and PROM in the midst of labor, you should have all that answered ahead of time, don't you think?
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#155 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 09:50 AM
 
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I'm thrilled about this. Telling a woman in active labor to stay home when she's not sure what to do can potentially kill her baby. The UC forum went from only a select few would UC to it's a free for all, women coming in with no thought of UC before labor. Support during labor is one thing, asking for medical advice - no, if you need to ask, go to a midwife or doctor. If you don't know, you didn't research UC enough and probably shouldn't be doing it.

And yes, I did have a UC and feel qualified to post this!
I agree.

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#156 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 10:18 AM
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i suppose that every UCer could also put in her sig-line "my statements are not medical advice. if you feel you need medical advice, see your health care provider."

you know, then everyone is free and clear.
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#157 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 12:29 PM
 
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i suppose that every UCer could also put in her sig-line "my statements are not medical advice. if you feel you need medical advice, see your health care provider."

you know, then everyone is free and clear.
I wish it were in the UA or something. Even the mw's in the birth professionals forum shouldnt have to say it, it should just be known. Why would you take "medical" advice from a stranger on the internet?? Consider their advice? sure...but along with your own research! They might not be who they say they are, you know?

I feel like the whole issue is redundant. I think MDC is just trying to find a way to Cover their behinds but I think theres got to be a much better way to do it than alienating certain topics/forums

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#158 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 12:29 PM
 
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Ok, so I have been reading all of this and let me get this straight.

We cannot post anymore when in active labor? What if we want encouragement? (I am not a UCER, but I am SURE this will have a trickle down effect).

I might as well go back to my mainstream forum and live in rainbow land with puppy dogs and butterflies.

:
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#159 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 12:51 PM
 
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And the reason some are asking for it to be applied to other forums is because it is clear that this rule is not going to be lifted in the UC case - and we feel that if the "why" behind the rule is so that no one is getting medical advice from a non HCP, and so that MDC is not legally liable - than it only seems logical that this rule be applied to *ALL* forums where medical advice is given and where MDC could be held legally liable for what they read.
Actually, I think the *why* is because of the acute potential for deaths to occur, not necessarily because they are getting advice from a non HCP. I don't understand the comparisons to other forums. I stopped reading at the UC forum because it was too stressful. There were women posting in labor who were asking advice and then were never heard from again. There was a string of still births that seemed disproportionate to the other boards, and by examining the roll call thread that suspicion was confirmed. Sure, in the other forums there is the potential to get bad advice. In very rare cases that could contribute to a death. But in the UC forum the risks of bad advice are severe and immediate. Also, as far this "personal responsibility" thing, for the women who posted in active labor and then dropped off never to be heard from again, I really hope they are okay. But, if a situation like that happened and the woman did not make it, you can not tell her spouse not to sue MDC because the woman was taking personal responsibility. I am not one for more rules, but I think MDC is not only covering their butts, but is making a responsible and possibly life saving decision by doing this. If women are feeling compelled to seek advice in labor, then they should not interfere with their intuition by asking what others opinions are on the matter. Her intuition should lead her to seek or not seek medical advice, and by gathering the opinions of many people online, she will not be able to hear here own voice anymore. It would be like gathering 100 friends into your labor room and asking them all what they think you should do next. For a community that touts personal responsibility and intuition, I am really surprised that this kind of thing would be encouraged in the first place.
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#160 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 12:57 PM
 
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I wish it were in the UA or something. Even the mw's in the birth professionals forum shouldnt have to say it, it should just be known. Why would you take "medical" advice from a stranger on the internet?? Consider their advice? sure...but along with your own research! They might not be who they say they are, you know?
I feel like the whole issue is redundant. I think MDC is just trying to find a way to Cover their behinds but I think theres got to be a much better way to do it than alienating certain topics/forums

I agree with the bolded part. Unfortunately some people either lack the common sense or get caught up with the peer pressure or have a strong desire for acceptance and forget that.
Also, instead of just blaming MDC, maybe we should also take a look at the people who put their desire for some crunch award, "ideal" birth experience, etc above having a healthy baby and the people who encourage it partially responsible.
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#161 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SevenVeils View Post
This is what I mean. Nowhere does this say "nobody who is in labor is allowed to post here".

And I feel the need to point out to the PPs who are adamantly calling for this rule to be applied to every forum, that your arguments to make it 'fair' are just baffling to me. You don't want this rule in one forum, so you are going to try to make the same rule in other forums as well?

Misery loves company?

No. I am trying to make a point about why is mdc all of a sudden deciding that UC is inherently unsafe, and members offering support and advice about it opens them up to legal action whereas they have the same problem in plenty of other areas on the board. So it seems ridiculous to start setting those types of rules, because eventually, there will be nothing to talk about.
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#162 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NaturalMindedMomma View Post
Ok, so I have been reading all of this and let me get this straight.

We cannot post anymore when in active labor? What if we want encouragement? (I am not a UCER, but I am SURE this will have a trickle down effect).

I might as well go back to my mainstream forum and live in rainbow land with puppy dogs and butterflies.

:
that is my point.
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#163 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:27 PM
 
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No. I am trying to make a point about why is mdc all of a sudden deciding that UC is inherently unsafe, and members offering support and advice about it opens them up to legal action whereas they have the same problem in plenty of other areas on the board. So it seems ridiculous to start setting those types of rules, because eventually, there will be nothing to talk about.
They aren't saying its inherently unsafe. What's happened is that there's been a shift in WHO is UC'ing, which is causing a lot of people alarm. Besides the fact that almost NOTHING is inherently 'safe', meaning zero risk. Birth is no exception.

Instead of low risk women with no indications for needing medical intervention UC'ing after extensive research, women are making this decision because their care provider finds VALID risk factors, and suggests a change to their 'perfect ideal birth plan'. This is somehow unacceptable and these women are putting the ideal birth above not only their own health and well-being, but their child's. Women are making last minute choices based on fears of doctors or midwives or hospitals. LOOK at some of the threads. "My baby is transverse, should I UC?" They are taking unnecessary chances. As a PP stated, babies are dying because of it, and possibly women as well. UC should not be a 'last resort'. It should be a 'first choice' for those who want it, as long as everything is progressing normally.

I have no issues with UC or homebirth or hospital birth for responsible, educated women making totally informed decisions not based on fear or pressure. That is not what is going on here.

Its becoming not about 'trusting one's body' or the 'natural process of birth', but about fear of the medical community in general. That's sad.

It would be irresponsible of MDC to let this continue unchecked. It would make them partially responsible for the outcomes, whether it would be legally or morally would be up to the courts, but the fact still remains.

Nicole - Mom to FOUR healthy, happy, wild boys.
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#164 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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BoringTales - I completely get where you are coming from, and I think thats a legitimate concern (and one of the most intelligent raised thus far), but I still have a problem with penalizing those of us who are not taking unnecessary risk, who have done extensive research, and who are making the right (for our families) choice for us. We have come to build a community here, and now one important aspect of the community is being taken away.

Perhaps it would be possible to put the regulations in place on the UC forum, but have a UC sub forum for those of us who have so many posts (on the UC forum specifically) to post while we are in labour - there wouldnt be many of us, but for those of us who chose to post we shouldnt be denied that right.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#165 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:41 PM
 
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what i find especially ironic about all of this is that most of the threads from what folks are considering uneducated UC'ers are pretty much unanimously met by the UC community with advice like "go back to the midwives, you're not a good candidate for UC" "your situation is one where that intervention is indicated, go back to your HCP." i'm not really seeing a whole lot of responses encouraging folks who probably shouldn't be UC'ing to do so. so it looks like to me that the forum is serving a really great purpose and service in those very instances where otherwise someone's fear of the medical intervention might keep them home when they shouldn't be. so what becomes of those people? they either post and get shut down before they are answered, or they know they're not allowed to post and just go ahead and UC in a potentially dangerous circumstance? how is that protecting mothers and their babies? i really don't get it.

and i'm really looking forward to clarification on what "active labor" means because right now the MDC admin definition is not jiving with popular medicine, which is really confusing the issues at hand.
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#166 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:41 PM
 
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Perhaps it would be possible to put the regulations in place on the UC forum, but have a UC sub forum for those of us who have so many posts (on the UC forum specifically) to post while we are in labour - there wouldnt be many of us, but for those of us who chose to post we shouldnt be denied that right.
It isn't your right. This is a privately owned forum, it has advertisers even. Whatever they feel is safest for the entire community, and wont put themselves at risk, they will do. Start a yahoo group if you want to post while in labor. But doesn't posting asking for help, or advice, or to confirm a decision while in labor negate the entire philosophy of UC? I am really surprised that UCers are fighting something that would align more closely with their philosophy.
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#167 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:45 PM
 
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But thats precisely what MDC is...its a place to come to seeking other opinions. What is difference between a mother actively seeking advice in labour, and a mother actively seeking advice on if she should vax or if she should continue to BF even when your ped says she shouldnt. If the answer is there is no immediate threat to vaxing or not vaxing - where as a woman in labour there is more urgency - tell that to any mother who has had a child have a reaction to a vaccine, or even tell that to the mother recently whose thread was closed when she chose NOT to vax and her child got a condition - these where all urgent situations where advice was sought - and it was up to the OP to determine whether or not to listen.

I just dont understand what the difference is.

What forums are we allowed to actively seek advice on? Is it just labour thats been singled out - if so, thats wrong.

Further - my other concerns werent addressed - when exactly is a thread closed, any labouring mama, when advice is offered, when its controversial...etc..etc..

I understand that MDC is not supposed to give medical advice - but at the same time, you cant pick and chose - seeking advice here, and being given advice to continue to breasfeed a slow gainer (seen it lots) IS medical advice. All the vax threads are medical advice. There is tons of medical advice in the circ boards. Heck, health and healing is all about medical advice...
Actually the precise purpose of Mothering magazine and this web-site is clearly posted here: http://www.mothering.com/mdc/webpurpose.html

Not all forums are moderated and is explained in Mothering's FAQs: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=520255
There is a wealth of information here for the questions you pose. Here you can find how to report violations and how to contact moderators about them, among other helpful topics. I encourage taking the time to read it, if you missed it when joining. Challenging moderators is also addressed on another site page.

If I may express my opinion: When we are better informed we are better educated. Wouldn't we all be better off individually if we gather our facts first, especially before posting here? And by facts, I do not mean opinions. I don't see where this site is best served by being used as a general "chat-room" for the first time something pops into our heads. Many comments I have seen since joining are just spouting off and do not address the topic posted.

In the instance of the water-broke-no-signs-of-labor query, I was alarmed that OP wasn't off immediately to her HCP. Given that all kinds of medical things can happen giving birth, where were the red-flags? I was wondering to myself if OP was educated to the processes and stages of labor? Take no offense--JMO here.

"There is a special place in Hell for women who do not help other women." ~ Madeleine Albright, first woman U. S. Secretary of State.
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#168 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 01:58 PM
 
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But doesn't posting asking for help, or advice, or to confirm a decision while in labor negate the entire philosophy of UC? I am really surprised that UCers are fighting something that would align more closely with their philosophy.
:

And the whole attitude of "if we can't do it, why can those other forums do it?" is really silly. Also, as I tried to point out, counterproductive. If the admins take this attitude into consideration, then the entire board will become very restrictive, where it doesn't need to be.

There have been numerous laboring (or women with PROM for extended periods of time) women who post for advice and for guidance on what their next move should be. To say otherwise is ridiculous. I would not do this, but others would and have. And in more than a couple of recent examples, those women were dissuaded from seeking medical advice. They were not being told to listen to their intuition, not in the cases where their intuition was leading them to seek actual, IRL help.

To continue to host such threads is irresponsible. In my opinion, the admins have made a very good decision in this case.

To pick apart abimommy's wording and claim that you think that she means that nobody in active labor is allowed to post here is obtuse.

I'm not a mod obviously, but I'm really positive that threads like "I've been in labor for X hours now, I'm excited to meet my baby" or as I said before "I've been in labor for X hours, it's harder than I had anticipated (here's why)" will not be disallowed.

Fortunately, threads like "there seems to be a problem, what should I do next?" are hopefully not going to be allowed any longer. I can't believe that anyone has a problem with that. Go poke around in the UC forum if you want to see women doing just that, and being pressured not to listen to their intuition or their concerns.
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#169 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Most of us who chose to UC do do our own research, thirdeye, we go gather our facts - we do tons of reading - everywhere! But at the same time, it is nice to have a plce where if I am having difficulty find an answer to whether or not colloidal silver was a good treatment for GBS, I would seek the opinions of those who used it - and I would come to the UC board. i would come to the UC board to get opinions on matters where the research isnt clear, or exact - and then based on the research and the experience of other woman I would form my own opinion - and make my own decision. The fact is, all over mdc, we dont *just* rely on the research thats out there - if we did we would trust the drug companies that tell us all vaxes are safe, we would trust our dr's who tell us that we cant have a VBAC - mdc is a place for questioning mainstream, being a little on the hippy side, and for gathering the opinions of other individuals.

This site is used as a general chat room for tons of information - people randomly talk about everything - from the television shows, to crafts, to more serious topics. You can't say you may talk candidly in those less important forums - but for ones that actually make a different you may not give an opinion unless you are an HCP.

As for the water breaking scenario (in general), that is fine if that is your comfort level and you would seek help - no one is preventing you from doing that. And if you did post in the UC board about your concerns, and said you were feeling unsure 99% of us would say "seek help". But, for some UC'ers (and probably some HB'ers as well) water breaking isnt a big deal. You keep your fluids up, dont insert anything, watch for signs of infection yada yada yada...your water can be broken for a long time without it causing harm...and that is the truth, but its okay to not be comfortable with that. All we are asking for is a place to discuss these things when they are occuring.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#170 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:12 PM
 
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I am not a UC'er and I have not participated on that forum (I'm new here), but from a disinterested outsider's point of view, I see a lot of prejudice against the UC community in this thread. (Not on the part of mods, mind you, only only by members posting to this thread.) Saying things like people trying to get a "crunch award over looking out for the safety of their baby" is not helpful and shows a very negative bias, negating any credibility that may be otherwise have been there.

As others have pointed out, MDC is not a mainstream board and serves as community for members who are generally more self-sufficient, independent-minded, and nontraditional in their ways of doing things. For that reason, I wish that MDC would remain true to its nature and allow members some latitude in terms of what type of advice and support we seek here. The standard disclaimers of mdc not providing medical advice should be sufficient, I would think.

I also agree with abimommy that if members see inappropriate advice being given, we should say something on the thread and make it clear that we feel the advice someone gave is dangerous, incorrect or whatever.
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#171 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:38 PM
 
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As for the water breaking scenario (in general), that is fine if that is your comfort level and you would seek help - no one is preventing you from doing that. And if you did post in the UC board about your concerns, and said you were feeling unsure 99% of us would say "seek help". But, for some UC'ers (and probably some HB'ers as well) water breaking isnt a big deal. You keep your fluids up, dont insert anything, watch for signs of infection yada yada yada...your water can be broken for a long time without it causing harm...and that is the truth, but its okay to not be comfortable with that. All we are asking for is a place to discuss these things when they are occuring.
If you don't know what to do when your water breaks, YOU SHOULDN'T BE UC'ING.

That's not UC. It's IC. Internet-assisted Childbirth. And yes, that should be banned from any responsible message board. I applaud the decision whole-heartedly and am beyond confused why women who base their entire birth plan on being UNASSISTED are freaking out that they won't have anyone to assist them. An entire profession exists to serve women in childbirth who want homebirths, it's called midwifery.

DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
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#172 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What do you mean, if you dont know what to do when your water breaks...I just told you what some would do - make sure to increase fluid intake, dont insert anything, watch for signs of infection...water breaking isnt an OMG YOU NEED TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL NOW situation.....

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#173 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:42 PM
 
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This is what I mean. Nowhere does this say "nobody who is in labor is allowed to post here".
Nobody claimed that. Henny Penny expressed concern that no woman in active labor would be able to start threads. I assume she meant to imply specifically threads about being in active labor, but regardless, the wording of the guideline is vague: "We can no longer host threads for individuals in active labor." I feel pretty sure that the admin' intent was not that literally no woman can start a thread while she's in active labor, but it can certainly be interpreted literally.

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And I feel the need to point out to the PPs who are adamantly calling for this rule to be applied to every forum, that your arguments to make it 'fair' are just baffling to me. You don't want this rule in one forum, so you are going to try to make the same rule in other forums as well? Misery loves company?
I didn't get the impression that anyone was bringing up "what about other forums" because they just want everyone to suffer. I can think of two reasons people might be making those types of comments --

If people are restricted from doing something in one forum, they're just going to go to another forum to do it. That's a valid point to hash over.

Second, as a means of pointing out the inequity/hypocrisy and trying to ferret out what this is really about. If the concern is really about people getting non-PCP advice, then why not apply the rules to all forums? The implication being that it's not just, or even at all, about that.

When you don't understand something, you could ask for an explanation. Casting aspersions really doesn't accomplish anything but make the other side feel attacked and ramp up the feeling that this is a battle with good guys and bad guys. :/

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Originally Posted by prettypixels View Post
I think this is a good thing for mama's and babies. If you want a UC, have a UC... you shouldn't need answers to serious questions about GBS and PROM in the midst of labor, you should have all that answered ahead of time, don't you think?
How is it good to not have questions answered? Do you mean that such a restriction would force people to research more beforehand? I'm not so keen on the manipulative aspect of that. But even aside from that, it's just not realistic. Yes, ideally you should have things worked out ahead of time. But people aren't perfect. Things come up that may have not occurred to them before it is actually happening to them. And not every situation is one in which a person has had time to consider those things -- sometimes people find themselves suddenly between a rock and a hard place with their care provider where previously everything seemed fine. It may not be in MDC's best interest to host those types of discussions, but the sentiment that the discussions themselves are invalid doesn't make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by jennica View Post
Actually, I think the *why* is because of the acute potential for deaths to occur, not necessarily because they are getting advice from a non HCP. I don't understand the comparisons to other forums.
It applies to any forum where advice is being given. Here's an example: Recently my son fell down the stairs, passed out, and started twitching. We called 911. By the time the paramedics got here he was alert and seemed to be fine, and they did not have an opinion on whether we ought to get him further checked out at the hospital. I felt conflicted about this. Now say I had posted a "what do you think I should do" thread at MDC, and some people were saying "stay home and watch him" and others were saying "take him in," and we took the former advice but then later he died. (The Natasha Richardson incident has me thinking about this recently -- I'd never before heard of the "talk and die syndrome", and my intuition was that he was fine, and the paramedics thought he was fine, so we stayed home.)

This was arguably more of a potentially acute situation than the average labor, since an injury had already occurred. The difference is that there is no societal stigma against having stairs and letting a child walk unaided down them without a helmet. What it comes down to is that MDC is unlikely to get into legal trouble for allowing advice to be given about situations that aren't already lightening rods for controversy and societal outrage.

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I stopped reading at the UC forum because it was too stressful. There were women posting in labor who were asking advice and then were never heard from again.
I agree that it's upsetting. This is actually a minority, but they stand out in a way that similar postings wouldn't in other forums. I would personally be most comfortable having the UC forum be a protected forum that you couldn't post in until you had a certain amount of time/posts at MDC. But my comfort would come at the cost of some people not being able to use MDC as a resource for support/help. There just isn't a perfect answer.

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There was a string of still births that seemed disproportionate to the other boards,
Because people choosing UC is such a lightening rod issue, there's a psychological sensitivity to what goes on in the UC boards. Recently a long-time MDC member claimed 14 preventable deaths. Why would she lie, and how could she make such an egregious mistake, right? So that sort of thing gets into people's heads and rachets up the level of fear about UC. Every undesired outcome stands out and becomes bigger and bigger in people's minds, like the fish that got away. I know midwives and doctors who have lost babies. Those stories don't get trotted out, for various reasons -- fear of litigation, because it's not their story to tell, ego. Whatever. On the UC boards we are transparent, and there's a price that comes with that. We keep a list of birth and deaths and stories in the interest of knowledge as power. Part of that means that we don't only list deaths that occur at home during a UC. But people who are anti-UC don't bother to read the stories, they just count up the little candle icons and think it proves something.

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and by examining the roll call thread that suspicion was confirmed.
Confirmed how? The other boards aren't keeping a tally.

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Originally Posted by Maeve View Post
maybe we should also take a look at the people who put their desire for some crunch award, "ideal" birth experience, etc above having a healthy baby and the people who encourage it partially responsible.
Or, maybe we should not assume that that is why people are choosing homebirth and UC.
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#174 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:53 PM
 
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Or, maybe we should not assume that that is why people are choosing homebirth and UC.


I do not assume that. I would have loved to have had a homebirth last time and dh and I have decided that with the next one, we would like to try. But I don't believe that that has played in factor in why some people decide to go through with it when the odds are against it turning out well.
And I really think that anyone who believes that "crunch wars" do not exist are in denial.
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#175 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ThirdEyeMom View Post
In the instance of the water-broke-no-signs-of-labor query, I was alarmed that OP wasn't off immediately to her HCP. Given that all kinds of medical things can happen giving birth, where were the red-flags? I was wondering to myself if OP was educated to the processes and stages of labor? Take no offense--JMO here.
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Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
As for the water breaking scenario (in general), that is fine if that is your comfort level and you would seek help - no one is preventing you from doing that. And if you did post in the UC board about your concerns, and said you were feeling unsure 99% of us would say "seek help". But, for some UC'ers (and probably some HB'ers as well) water breaking isnt a big deal. You keep your fluids up, dont insert anything, watch for signs of infection yada yada yada...your water can be broken for a long time without it causing harm...and that is the truth, but its okay to not be comfortable with that. All we are asking for is a place to discuss these things when they are occuring.
Poiyt is exactly right, and this is very much to the point of the whole conversation here. The 'party line' in mainstream obstetrics is that when ROM occurs, you run to the hospital immediately. but even my quite conservative CNM's whom i used for my first birth told me to stay home and let labor get started for a while after i had ROM at 38 weeks - and i was GBS+. they checked in with me several hours later, and after it had been about 8 hours and labor wasn't really happening, then they had me come in for my first abx and we decided on some castor oil in an effort to get things going so i could avoid hospitals/interventions. i know many homebirth m/w's who are OK with ROM for 24, 36, 48 hours as long as baby's heart rate is fine and there are no other danger signs like elevated temperature.

so the answer to whether or not you need to run to your nearest HCP provider when you experience ROM, much like many many things that come up in pregnancy and birth, is not black and white and is going to vary from HCP to HCP. and it's going to vary from situation to situation with every HCP based on their own intuition and the various factors involved. so when you're not sure what your course of action should be, getting lots of people to share their research and opinions can be very helpful. now of course it's nice to do that research ahead of time. but if it's one of the things you just hadn't read a lot about, i don't really see what's wrong with asking the question, reviewing the information, to help you make a more informed choice.
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#176 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 02:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Harmon-knee View Post
I am not a UC'er and I have not participated on that forum (I'm new here), but from a disinterested outsider's point of view, I see a lot of prejudice against the UC community in this thread. (Not on the part of mods, mind you, only only by members posting to this thread.) Saying things like people trying to get a "crunch award over looking out for the safety of their baby" is not helpful and shows a very negative bias, negating any credibility that may be otherwise have been there.

As others have pointed out, MDC is not a mainstream board and serves as community for members who are generally more self-sufficient, independent-minded, and nontraditional in their ways of doing things. For that reason, I wish that MDC would remain true to its nature and allow members some latitude in terms of what type of advice and support we seek here. The standard disclaimers of mdc not providing medical advice should be sufficient, I would think.

I also agree with abimommy that if members see inappropriate advice being given, we should say something on the thread and make it clear that we feel the advice someone gave is dangerous, incorrect or whatever.

I really think if you had spent more time here you might have seen what some of us are talking about. There is no prejudice against UCers, well, at least not the responsible ones. It's the ones that refuse to believe that anything can go wrong and that yes, for some people in some situations, giving birth *is* dangerous. Some people want to believe that all you need is good intentions and enough trust in nature and you will be fine. Unfortunately, that's not always true.
And then you have the ones that have not taken any time or effort into learning about the birth process and what could happen and then just think they can plop down and out comes the baby. :
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Originally Posted by Maeve View Post
I really think if you had spent more time here you might have seen what some of us are talking about. There is no prejudice against UCers, well, at least not the responsible ones. It's the ones that refuse to believe that anything can go wrong and that yes, for some people in some situations, giving birth *is* dangerous. Some people want to believe that all you need is good intentions and enough trust in nature and you will be fine. Unfortunately, that's not always true.
And then you have the ones that have not taken any time or effort into learning about the birth process and what could happen and then just think they can plop down and out comes the baby. :
There are irresponsible people in every forum and of every birth philosophy, obviously.

Sadly, there is nothing that MDC can do to change that.

Regardless, it's clear that you and others are making a lot of assumptions about what UCers think and whether or not they have adequately prepared. Yes, I'm new here, but I'm pretty sure that even if I'd been an active poster on UC for years, I would not be somehow magically endowed with the powers of reading the minds and knowledge-store of other posters on that forum.
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#179 of 179 Old 03-25-2009, 03:11 PM
 
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Hey everyone.

I am closing this thread so I can note down all the concerns and present them to higher up on the ladder so we can expedite the clarification process.

There has been a few pages since I was able to read this so give me a bit, I will respond to things I can.

Not all those who wander are lost 
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