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#1 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I noticed that a thread was closed with the reasoning that MDC no longer hosts discussion seeking advice when a woman is in active labour. (I assume this would go for someone planning a Hospital birth as well...)

Im curious as to why this change was made? I can only assume its because of the couple of recent threads that have had to be closed because advice was given, debate insued as to the nature of that advice and whether it should be given yada yada yada...

My question furthers into...what constitutes advice, and does the OP have to be actively seeking it. For example, a mama currently has a thread that says her contractions feel like they might be doing something, and she is just posting to get rid of nervous energy. But in her post she also says she has been having contractions for days...does this thread get closed a) because the woman is in labour and has given symptoms and thus leaves herself open to advice? b) this woman is in labour and thats enough c) the thread stays open until people start giving advice d) this thread stays open until people give advice this is controversial or something else...

If its option a) then it seems unfair to ban all women in labour from posting. Especially since MDC supports UC. Because UC'ers believe that their body will naturally go into labout (not saying others dont), many are comfortable with having waters be broken for days before labour - but the mama would not be allowed to post because technically she is labour, and by giiving symptoms she is leaving herself open to the advice of others? Is she then just allwed to post "I think labour is starting - yay!" And if so, what if someone asks her what makes her think that, or what she is going through - would she not be allowed to post it because someone else may read it and go "your waters have been broken for 36hrs get thee to a hospital" (or whatever).

If its option b) It seems making an MDC wide ban on women in labour posting sinply because they are in labour is just silly..and I hope thats not the sole discretion for closing a thread...

If its c), how is it fair to the OP? She is allowed to post that she thinks labour is starting and what not - but because people cant control their want to give advice her thread gets closed, and presumably if she starts it up again she gets a warning... It is in the nature of an online community to give advice and offer stories. Would the only threads that would be allowed to stay open be the one's where all the posts are "ELVs!" "wishing you a healthy baby" etc?

If its d), what advice is controversial? Is it just those that cause debate among MDC members? Is it just those where it seems to be causing problems in that thread alone? Who determines what advice is allowed and what isnt.

Further, who determines what is advice? Does it have to be "I think you should do this..." what if its just a mama sharing her story? For example, if a mama posts that she is excited that labour is starting and has been having contractions for a day - another mama posts that she had contractions for 10 days and baby turned out fine - is that advice? Because it seems likes is advocating continuing to labour. What if another mama posts that she had contractions for 3 days and something was seriously wrong with her baby and she shouldnt have laboured that long? Thats also advice, advocating being careful about labouring too long.

I guess it just seems that this particular forum guideline modification has a lot of what ifs - and it may have been easier to deal with the issue (assuming its the heavily debated threads we had about a month ago) on a thread by thread case basis - rather than on sweeping guidelines. Afterall, there arent a lof of mamas who post while they are in labour, and most of the ones who do are seeking support of the community they have come to count on for so long. UC is such a personal decision and we face such negativity from a lot of places (So do homebirthers - dont get me wrong - but we do seem to be the most...radical...I suppose, in the eyes of others anyways). To not be allowed to post about this part of our joourney, the labour, while it is happening seems like such an infringement on that bond and trust we have with each other.

I know, for me, I was looking forward to posting in early labour and sharing my excitement with the group, and my DDC and I feel like something has been taken away, and I just want to understand why this happened, how it happened, and how exactly its supposed to be enforced.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#2 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 05:39 PM
 
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The concern is when the boards are utilized in lieu of medical advice from a HCP.

That isn't the purpose of the forums.

We cannot take on that role. We are happy to provide a place for discussion and support but this board is not a substitute for medical advice.

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#3 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But thats precisely what MDC is...its a place to come to seeking other opinions. What is difference between a mother actively seeking advice in labour, and a mother actively seeking advice on if she should vax or if she should continue to BF even when your ped says she shouldnt. If the answer is there is no immediate threat to vaxing or not vaxing - where as a woman in labour there is more urgency - tell that to any mother who has had a child have a reaction to a vaccine, or even tell that to the mother recently whose thread was closed when she chose NOT to vax and her child got a condition - these where all urgent situations where advice was sought - and it was up to the OP to determine whether or not to listen.

I just dont understand what the difference is.

What forums are we allowed to actively seek advice on? Is it just labour thats been singled out - if so, thats wrong.

Further - my other concerns werent addressed - when exactly is a thread closed, any labouring mama, when advice is offered, when its controversial...etc..etc..

I understand that MDC is not supposed to give medical advice - but at the same time, you cant pick and chose - seeking advice here, and being given advice to continue to breasfeed a slow gainer (seen it lots) IS medical advice. All the vax threads are medical advice. There is tons of medical advice in the circ boards. Heck, health and healing is all about medical advice...

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#4 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 05:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by poiyt View Post
But thats precisely what MDC is...its a place to come to seeking other opinions. What is difference between a mother actively seeking advice in labour, and a mother actively seeking advice on if she should vax or if she should continue to BF even when your ped says she shouldnt. If the answer is there is no immediate threat to vaxing or not vaxing - where as a woman in labour there is more urgency - tell that to any mother who has had a child have a reaction to a vaccine, or even tell that to the mother recently whose thread was closed when she chose NOT to vax and her child got a condition - these where all urgent situations where advice was sought - and it was up to the OP to determine whether or not to listen.

I just dont understand what the difference is.

What forums are we allowed to actively seek advice on? Is it just labour thats been singled out - if so, thats wrong.

Further - my other concerns werent addressed - when exactly is a thread closed, any labouring mama, when advice is offered, when its controversial...etc..etc..

I understand that MDC is not supposed to give medical advice - but at the same time, you cant pick and chose - seeking advice here, and being given advice to continue to breasfeed a slow gainer (seen it lots) IS medical advice. All the vax threads are medical advice. There is tons of medical advice in the circ boards. Heck, health and healing is all about medical advice...
I don't see any posters running around with syringes prepared to vax people should they choose that. I guess that is the best analogy I can think of in this situation.


We are going to be adding this disclaimer to the UA

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The opinions offered at Mothering.com and MotheringDotCommunity are for informational purposes only. Our discussions are not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice of a qualified healthcare provider or physician with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition.


I am sorry, I realize some are likely to be disappointed by this.

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#5 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 08:21 PM
 
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What about legal advice? People - esp in PaP or Single Parents - constantly seek and give legal advice. In fact, isn't that one of the reasons you said SP would stay public (not private like PaP, with 50/60 access), so people newly single could get legal advice there?

The only thing you owe to others is to behave with integrity.
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#6 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 08:25 PM
 
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"The concern is when the boards are utilized in lieu of medical advice from a HCP."

Could you talk a bit then about how this also applies to the birth professional forum? Or maybe why that forum is exempt from the limitation? Often women ask for advice there, but I'm thinking that could also be seen as utilizing the boards in lieu of medical advice from a HCP.

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#7 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 08:30 PM
 
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I don't think poyit's questions have been answered, and I too am curious.

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#8 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 08:35 PM
 
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People offer medical advice all the time. In the baby section and breastfeeding. In safety. It seems as if either the disclaimer should be there and people can offer advice, or...not. But it still seems unclear to me what is actually allowed.
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#9 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 11:17 PM
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I think the change is a very wise move on behalf of MDC and will help keep women and babies safe.
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#10 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just dont see what the difference is between advice in this circumstance and offering medical advice or legal advice in all the others.

And I still dont see my question answered as to when a thread is closed, what has to happen for a thread to be closed...?

And as for keeping mamas and babies safe - I am going to ignore that comment - as I believe it was said to start a debate, and I wont feed that. The pp would have been better to simply say she supported the change in guidelines.

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#11 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 11:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajahkat View Post
"The concern is when the boards are utilized in lieu of medical advice from a HCP."

Could you talk a bit then about how this also applies to the birth professional forum? Or maybe why that forum is exempt from the limitation? Often women ask for advice there, but I'm thinking that could also be seen as utilizing the boards in lieu of medical advice from a HCP.
New guidelines for that forum will be forthcoming.

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#12 of 179 Old 03-23-2009, 11:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ziggysmama View Post
I think the change is a very wise move on behalf of MDC and will help keep women and babies safe.

I agree.
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#13 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:21 AM
 
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I think the change is a very wise move on behalf of MDC and will help keep women and babies safe.

The same could be said for any number of fourms or subforums or threads on mdc - it seems as if the UC forum is being singled out. What if someoen advises to keep nursing a ftt baby with a mother who has supply issues? What if soemone advises against the chicken pox vaccine and a child gets the chicken pox and dies? It just seems as if it would make more sense to say, these are just opinions etc seek medical advice etc, and leave it at that, for ALL the forums. But to shut down only one forum when all the others are still offering potentially dangerous advice seems silly.
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#14 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 01:51 AM
 
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I don't think it is helpful to the topic to throw up red herrings. We are not currently discussing the other forums but UC.

Someone can inform the board they are in labor and then update when the child is born but we cannot host threads where it appears that they are utilizing the boards in lieu of actual medical advice.

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#15 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 08:10 AM
 
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I don't think it is helpful to the topic to throw up red herrings. We are not currently discussing the other forums but UC.

Someone can inform the board they are in labor and then update when the child is born but we cannot host threads where it appears that they are utilizing the boards in lieu of actual medical advice.

So can we use the boards in lieu of actual medical advice in other forums? That is what I'm wondering?
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#16 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 10:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
I don't think it is helpful to the topic to throw up red herrings. We are not currently discussing the other forums but UC.

Someone can inform the board they are in labor and then update when the child is born but we cannot host threads where it appears that they are utilizing the boards in lieu of actual medical advice.
i don't see it as a red herring at all. I personally don't see what the difference is between asking for advice while you're in labor and, say, asking for advice about your sick child (ie - baby has x,y,z symptoms, what could this be?). the person in either circumstance is clearly *not* seeking medical advice at that moment from a HCP for whatever reason. whether it's "that sounds like what happened to me in labor" or "that sounds like what my LO had last month" or "i read about that in a,b,c book." technically i guess it is medical advice that might be better coming from a HCP. but if we rid the boards of all such advice, you might as well just shut down half the forums here. everything we do here (like anything anyone does anywhere) has the potential for a bad outcome - sleep with your baby/baby dies of SIDS; wear your baby/baby dies of positional asphyxia; don't vax your baby/baby dies of chicken pox; keep nursing your baby despite supply issues/baby dies of FTT... the point being of course that these things can happen whether those choices are made or not (babies die of SIDS in cribs, of positional asphyxia in carseats, from vaccines, from FTT when formula fed all the time). just like bad outcomes can happen in a hospital birth when you listen to every word the HCP says, or when you UC at home and don't have a HCP. bad stuff can sometimes happen, but it's not the fault of someone's advice, and it's up to the OP or anyone else reading to decide for themselves whether to take that advice or not, and deal with the consequences of their choices.

and FTR, i don't UC. but i think it is vitally important for women who do to have a place to seek advice and support from other UC'ers. and i don't think UC is any different than any other contrary-to-the-mainstream choice that MDC'ers make, and deserves the same protection as anything else we do here.
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#17 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:14 AM
 
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So can we use the boards in lieu of actual medical advice in other forums? That is what I'm wondering?
The spirit of the boards promotes informed consent. We aren't changing the other forums, the practitioner forum will be a bit but not the others.

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#18 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:19 AM
 
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i don't see it as a red herring at all. I personally don't see what the difference is between asking for advice while you're in labor and, say, asking for advice about your sick child (ie - baby has x,y,z symptoms, what could this be?). the person in either circumstance is clearly *not* seeking medical advice at that moment from a HCP for whatever reason. whether it's "that sounds like what happened to me in labor" or "that sounds like what my LO had last month" or "i read about that in a,b,c book." technically i guess it is medical advice that might be better coming from a HCP. but if we rid the boards of all such advice, you might as well just shut down half the forums here. everything we do here (like anything anyone does anywhere) has the potential for a bad outcome - sleep with your baby/baby dies of SIDS; wear your baby/baby dies of positional asphyxia; don't vax your baby/baby dies of chicken pox; keep nursing your baby despite supply issues/baby dies of FTT... the point being of course that these things can happen whether those choices are made or not (babies die of SIDS in cribs, of positional asphyxia in carseats, from vaccines, from FTT when formula fed all the time). just like bad outcomes can happen in a hospital birth when you listen to every word the HCP says, or when you UC at home and don't have a HCP. bad stuff can sometimes happen, but it's not the fault of someone's advice, and it's up to the OP or anyone else reading to decide for themselves whether to take that advice or not, and deal with the consequences of their choices.

and FTR, i don't UC. but i think it is vitally important for women who do to have a place to seek advice and support from other UC'ers. and i don't think UC is any different than any other contrary-to-the-mainstream choice that MDC'ers make, and deserves the same protection as anything else we do here.
The UC forum is not being closed, it is staying there. However we cannot host threads diagnosing and advising laboring women.

People can still support one another, but people really do need to be fully informed in order to UC, the boards is not a substitute for that.

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#19 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:41 AM
 
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Do the new UC forum guidelines apply only to women in labor, or do they also apply to women having an unassisted pregnancy who are seeking advice about something health- and pregnancy-related? (For example, questions about the baby's heartbeat or the mother's blood pressure?)

Edited to add - what about postpartum issues such as healing a tear?

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#20 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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People need to be fully informed on whether or not they vax - but that thread is being left intact?

And my original question of when is a thread closed, and what has to happen to close it STILL has not been answered.

So a labouring mama is allowed to post she is in labour, but she isnt allowed to post updates? Just hey, Im in labour - and then however many hours later hey I have a baby?

I really do think that when some decisions are made there should be some sort of notice or discussion - especially one like this that has so many reaching ramifications. If MDC is concerned about legal liability, which one PM this morning told me is the concern, should they not also be concerned with the legal ramifications of hosting medical advice about vaxes? Or what about the thread in the circ forum where a mama asks if her sons penis has an infection - she is told over and over again that he doesnt, that its normal - so he gets an infection, bad things happen - shouldnt mdc be concerned about *those* legal ramifications also?

It is frustrating that the reasoning behind this rule change is that we dont encourage medical advice - only to have medical advice posted everywhere else.

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#21 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:55 AM
 
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This is very interesting. I agree w/ poiyt, and look forward to more answers.

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#22 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 11:56 AM
 
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Wow, I am at a loss for words here. If I wasn't getting so much support from the UC forum, I wouldn't even come here at all anymore.
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#23 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:05 PM
 
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It's interesting because many women who UC do not view labor and birth as medical events requiring medical advice. We do however, believe that Wise women who have birthed before can share their experiences, and that it is not medical advice. It is the ancient art of passing down the wisdom.

Could mamas in labor post a labor issue and invite personal PM's for advice?

Why are health care professionals allowed to post "medical" advice when I could go over to that forum and pretend to be a health care professional?

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#24 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:08 PM
 
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It's interesting because many women who UC do not view labor and birth as medical events requiring medical advice. We do however, believe that Wise women who have birthed before can share their experiences, and that it is not medical advice. It is the ancient art of passing down the wisdom.

Could mamas in labor post a labor issue and invite personal PM's for advice?

Why are health care professionals allowed to post "medical" advice when I could go over to that forum and pretend to be a health care professional?

And I think it's completely relevant that ppl are posting their opinions and advice all over this forum, but UC is being singled out.

I understand if MDC needs to cover their butts and puts something in their UA, but then taking it further and closing threads?

You know what? I think this goes along with ppl behind scared of birth. Of fearing birth! Of not trusting birth! Just another thing happening to say that labor and birth are not safe! :
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#25 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ziggysmama View Post
I think the change is a very wise move on behalf of MDC and will help keep women and babies safe.


I totally agree and wish that this would get taken a bit further and applied to several other forums as well...

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#26 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:17 PM
 
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And I think it's completely relevant that ppl are posting their opinions and advice all over this forum, but UC is being singled out.

I understand if MDC needs to cover their butts and puts something in their UA, but then taking it further and closing threads?

You know what? I think this goes along with ppl behind scared of birth. Of fearing birth! Of not trusting birth! Just another thing happening to say that labor and birth are not safe! :
Yes, why just the UC forum??

ITA about it making birth seem less safe.

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#27 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:17 PM
 
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I totally agree and wish that this would get taken a bit further and applied to several other forums as well...
I do not agree with you, but I do agree that if they are going to do this to the UC forum, then yes it needs to be applied to others as well.
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#28 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama in the forest View Post
It's interesting because many women who UC do not view labor and birth as medical events requiring medical advice. We do however, believe that Wise women who have birthed before can share their experiences, and that it is not medical advice. It is the ancient art of passing down the wisdom.

Could mamas in labor post a labor issue and invite personal PM's for advice?
Yes, they could ask for pms.

Quote:
Why are health care professionals allowed to post "medical" advice when I could go over to that forum and pretend to be a health care professional?
We do not want HCPs posting advice. That forum was intended for Birth Professionals to discuss amongst themselves. It wasn't intended to be utilized as a substitute for a HCP.

We haven't had that discussion amongst the admins but it is *my* opinion that people asking or clarity or more information regarding a certain diagnoses wouldn't be bad but the forum cannot be used as a "Dr Internet" or "Midwife Internet"

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#29 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:25 PM
 
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It's interesting because many women who UC do not view labor and birth as medical events requiring medical advice. We do however, believe that Wise women who have birthed before can share their experiences, and that it is not medical advice. It is the ancient art of passing down the wisdom.
Yeah, that is my feeling. The women who post on the UC forum obviously do not WANT medical advice. Or they are asking for other wise women's opinions about whether they should get medical advice or not. I was so very excited that there is a UC board here... because I have felt out of place on other UC mailing lists, etc. If I can't post here asking for support and advice during labor I feel like a lot of the goodness of the UC board has been taken away. Also, I don't think the other scenarios are red herrings. Medical advice and suggestions are being handed out all over the MDC boards. Not just in the UC board. Breastfeeding, vaccinating, even co-sleeping can all be considered medical issues where you should contact your medical care provider instead of talking on a board.

Angela lactivist.gif, married for 14 1/2 years to DHtwins.gif, mother to DD 8-5-97homeschool.gif, DS 8-5-09 uc.jpgbabyf.gif, and SURPRISE!!! pos.gif due 2-17-12

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#30 of 179 Old 03-24-2009, 12:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
Yes, they could ask for pms.
So, where do we post that on the UC forum? That mamas have to now request PM's and we still need the original question answered. When does that happen..a, b, c or d?
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