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#181 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 12:09 PM
 
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I already responded to this post, but it's a good example of what I mean:
 

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Originally Posted by Jennifer Z View Post

I am upset.  I am upset that anybody would decide that I didn't have a "real" birth because it was a surgical birth.  I am offended that my experience of birthing my children is not valid enough to justify having a forum for "Cesearean BIRTH"  It is a BIRTH, not a surgical procedure.  I went through the work of pregnancy, labor, and a difficult recovery.  I have done the difficult, personal work to heal from the trauma of my first birth, and learned how to make my second birth as good of experience as possible (and it was a better experience than I thought was possible).  There is already a forum for birth trauma, and if you (general you) are still in the place where seeing the word "Cesarean BIRTH" makes you feel bad, then that is where you should be.  You should not take away the experience of all of the mothers here who have gotten through trauma, or never had trauma, to find their community, share the joys, share the stress, share the strategies for making the best out of the situations that occur, rather than dwelling on falling short of some ideal.


I've done that difficult, persona work, too - more than once. When I finally gave in and accepted that ds2 was going to be another c-section (for stupid reasons, but whatever - it was what it was), I was actually in a reasonably good mood when I got on the OR table. I'd even gone into labour the night before, and I was happy that he'd picked his own birthday. I was terrified of the OR, and the OR itself was awful, but I got through it okay. All that difficult, personal work paid off...until the physical damage done by the c-section itself effed up my body and my sex life for almost a year. I did it "right". I did the work. I made the best of it. And, it ended really badly.

 

The above kind of post is the kind that sets me off. It's not because I don't believe people can have good/okay/healing c-sections, because they obviously do. It's not because I believe there's anything wrong with talking about those c-sections, because I don't think that. It's because it comes across with that same holier-than-thou "I did it better than you did, so I had a good result, and you deserve the crap you got, because you didn't do everything right" vibe that so often comes through in discussions about VBAC. It's no more palatable on one side of the discussion than on the other.

 

Posts that contain an implied promise that if you do it (no matter what "it" is) right, everything will be fine, set me off. One thing that RCS and VBAC (and births with no history of c-section at all!) have in common is that you can do everything right, and still have a bad outcome.

 


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#182 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 12:30 PM
 
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I think Jennifer Z's post is probably a good example of what happens when someone gets pushed and pushed and pushed until they get upset and don't word things as carefully as they otherwise might. Because having every third post in every thread about c-sections be that same one about how you just don't understand how anyone could consider it a birth, lip service about respecting people having their own opinions, but it's just so painful for you to see anyone call it anything other than a travesty, etc., etc., effectively lets everyone know that you consider their experience to be a personal insult.

 

And there are plenty of posts on this forum claiming that if you do everything right and think all the right thoughts, no complications can ever occur. And you seem to be mysteriously alright with that.


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#183 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 12:43 PM
 
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Quote:

Posts that contain an implied promise that if you do it (no matter what "it" is) right, everything will be fine, set me off.

 

TBH it seems any post about anything to do with c/s sets you off regardless of intent or content.

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#184 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 12:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaktreemama View Post

 

 

TBH it seems any post about anything to do with c/s sets you off regardless of intent or content.



Incorrect, but you're welcome to your perceptions.


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#185 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 01:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildwomyn View Post

I think Jennifer Z's post is probably a good example of what happens when someone gets pushed and pushed and pushed until they get upset and don't word things as carefully as they otherwise might. Because having every third post in every thread about c-sections be that same one about how you just don't understand how anyone could consider it a birth, lip service about respecting people having their own opinions, but it's just so painful for you to see anyone call it anything other than a travesty, etc., etc., effectively lets everyone know that you consider their experience to be a personal insult.

 

And there are plenty of posts on this forum claiming that if you do everything right and think all the right thoughts, no complications can ever occur. And you seem to be mysteriously alright with that.



I don't care if other people use the term "cesarean birth". It's not lip service. If that's their preferred terminology, then that's what they should use. I have never - not once - said or implied otherwise. No. I don't understand it, and I can't relate to it. So what? Is the only acceptable resonse to the usage of "cesarean birth" to adopt it for myself, even though using it to describe my own experiences makes me want to puke? Is the only way to respect your right to use that term to use it myself? I haven't given birth, and I'm not going to say that I have. That has NOTHING to do with anyone else, or anyone else's experience, and if you've (general "you") have given birth, then say so. I'm certainly not objecting to it.

 

I can tell you right now that I've never - not once, ever, anywhere, irl or on the net - told anyone to call their cesarean surgery, instead of birth. I've had multiple people, online and off, tell me to call mine births. (Yes - I do object to people saying "it's not surgery", as that's clearly a factual mis-statement.) So, who's insulting whose experience?

 

I have been objecting to the forum being called "cesarean birth". Period. That's it.

 

I'm not alright ("mysteriously" or otherwise) with people claiming that if you do everything right, and think all the right thoughts, no complications will occur. Please find my posts that look like I am, so that i can edit them, because they're giving a really wrong impression of my views on this subject. Promises that you can guarantee a good outcome are my first signal that a care provider (OB or midwife) is dangerous, and I don't take any more kindly to them from the birthing community. They're lies, and they're dangerous.


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#186 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 01:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post



I don't care if other people use the term "cesarean birth". It's not lip service. If that's their preferred terminology, then that's what they should use. I have never - not once - said or implied otherwise.



I think a lot of people are thinking of what you said in the Other thread:

 

 

"

Fair enough. I'll just stay away from the forum, if it's called that. Every time I see 'c-birth", it's like being hit in the gut. I didn't "have a baby", either. I already had the baby. It was inside me, and then it was cut out of me.



Sorry. I try to respect everyone's reality on this - it just seems like saying "I gave birth to a tumour", or "I gave birth to my appendix". I don't know why there's been this big push to play down the fact that it's surgery."

 

"Do we really, really have to call it c-birth? Just reading that make me actually feel like I'm going to vomit, and has actually prevented me from being able to drive in the past. The OB gave birth to my kids, not me, and I hate that patronizing pat on the head about "you still gave birth, dear, even though all you did was lie there in an anesthetized panic"."

 

 

 

I think saying that when you hear the term it's a hit in the gut, and that it makes you want to vomit, and has prevented you from driving-- leads people to think you object to hearing the term.


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#187 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 01:15 PM
 
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StormBride, I understand your objection to calling your own experience a birth, and I respect that.  I guess for me it depends on what you (general you) are describing.  Are you describing the birth of your child (i.e. my child was born in 2006), or are describing the birthing experience?  I can't deny that my child was born.  I mean, it might have not been the intended natural way, but she was born in my opinion.  Now, did I birth her according to natural norms?  No, I guess not.  How do people come into existence in this world?  I guess where I have a hard time eliminating the concept of birth is that I can't find any other term to describe DD's entrance into the world that is okay to me. 

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just a question that I have even asked myself. 


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#188 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 01:23 PM
 
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Having participated in several of the c-section threads here, and reading all 10 pages of the robust conversation here I hope the admins will provide this forum/or sub-forum for a piece of their MDC community members who are asking for it.

 

I believe the position of "don't talk about it" has done a disservice to many mothers who have come back after their birth experiences looking for information/support from their community.

 

 


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#189 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

I realize it's in common usage by the medical profession, but I do still object to it. The term "elective", outside of the medial world, has a very, very strong connotation of having been chosen.

 

I agree...and not just with regards to ceaserans. I think the way "elective" is used in the medical world is something that needs to change and it's an issue that I've been an activist for in general for years. Language is powerful and it's heartening to see that over the last few decades, thanks to the dedicated aware-ness raising work of many people speaking about many issues, some language has changed. I hope a change in the medical world's use of "elective" is something that will happen in the future.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CI Mama View Post

 

I envision a forum where there could be a thread entitled "Celebrating our Cesearean Births" and another entitled "My c-section was birth rape" and neither of those would be shut down or presumed to describe the experiences of all birthing women.

 

Yes. This.


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I have to say I am following this and I am so frustrated.   Why does it have to be black and white?   Where is the middle ground?


Michelle, I have similar frustrations. I have not had a ceasarean, but I support a forum for discussing them and support the idea that a forum on ceaserans or any other topic could be a place with the extremes and the middle ground could all have a place.

 

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I hope the admins will provide this forum/or sub-forum for a piece of their MDC community members who are asking for it.

 

I believe the position of "don't talk about it" has done a disservice to many mothers who have come back after their birth experiences looking for information/support from their community.

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#190 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 02:17 PM
 
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 I commend stormbride for sticking around in this thread and continuing to provide the other side. I have the same concerns about what the forum could become, based on the tone of this thread and some of the threads in the VBAC forum recently. My guess is others probably feel the same way but don't want to be attacked or have their words picked apart. Rather than people having to justify their c sections, it seems more likely you have to justify why you want a VBAC or why you had a difficult c section. There has to be a middle ground and there needs to be respect for both sides. Just as no one should be prevented from telling their positive story, no one should be prevented from telling their negative story, or told perhaps they just have a low pain tolerance or nothing negative to compare it to (and yes that was said here). If I had read only positive stories about c-sections before I had mine, I would have felt like a complete failure because mine was difficult (and I was already feeling like a failure for not having the natural birth I had prepared for). I absolutely think there is a need for a forum where women can get advice on how to prepare, recovery tips, and to generally provide birth stories if that's what they want to do. But no one's experience should be minimized.

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#191 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 02:35 PM
 
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I believe the position of "don't talk about it" has done a disservice to many mothers who have come back after their birth experiences looking for information/support from their community.

 

 


 

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...There has to be a middle ground and there needs to be respect for both sides. Just as no one should be prevented from telling their positive story, no one should be prevented from telling their negative story, or told perhaps they just have a low pain tolerance or nothing negative to compare it to (and yes that was said here). If I had read only positive stories about c-sections before I had mine, I would have felt like a complete failure because mine was difficult (and I was already feeling like a failure for not having the natural birth I had prepared for). I absolutely think there is a need for a forum where women can get advice on how to prepare, recovery tips, and to generally provide birth stories if that's what they want to do. But no one's experience should be minimized.



Very good comments. I agree!


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#192 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 02:52 PM
 
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I think a lot of people are thinking of what you said in the Other thread:

 

 

"

Fair enough. I'll just stay away from the forum, if it's called that. Every time I see 'c-birth", it's like being hit in the gut. I didn't "have a baby", either. I already had the baby. It was inside me, and then it was cut out of me.



Sorry. I try to respect everyone's reality on this - it just seems like saying "I gave birth to a tumour", or "I gave birth to my appendix". I don't know why there's been this big push to play down the fact that it's surgery."

 

"Do we really, really have to call it c-birth? Just reading that make me actually feel like I'm going to vomit, and has actually prevented me from being able to drive in the past. The OB gave birth to my kids, not me, and I hate that patronizing pat on the head about "you still gave birth, dear, even though all you did was lie there in an anesthetized panic"."

 

 

 

I think saying that when you hear the term it's a hit in the gut, and that it makes you want to vomit, and has prevented you from driving-- leads people to think you object to hearing the term.

 

It does, and has done, all those things. However, my post in the other thread probably wasn't clear. I think it was after the "c-birth" name for the forum came up and I was in a pretty emotionally reactive place, so I didn't phrase things very well. The time the term prevented me from driving was in a hospital brochure, about preparing for my "cesarean birth". The contexts in which it hits me in the gut and makes me want to vomit are also when people are trying to use it to define all cesareans, which automatically includes my experience. I can see where that post would come across as objecting to hearing it at all. While it's never going to be my favourite phrase, it doesn't cause that kind of visceral reaction when people talk about their own cesareans...the emotional impact isn't there in the same way.
 

 


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#193 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

StormBride, I understand your objection to calling your own experience a birth, and I respect that.  I guess for me it depends on what you (general you) are describing.  Are you describing the birth of your child (i.e. my child was born in 2006), or are describing the birthing experience?  I can't deny that my child was born.  I mean, it might have not been the intended natural way, but she was born in my opinion.  Now, did I birth her according to natural norms?  No, I guess not.  How do people come into existence in this world?  I guess where I have a hard time eliminating the concept of birth is that I can't find any other term to describe DD's entrance into the world that is okay to me. 

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just a question that I have even asked myself. 



I think it's something everyone has to figure out for themselves, really. In my situation, I definitely say "my kids were born", "when ds2 was born", "I'm making a strawberry and whipped cream cake for dd2's birthday", etc. I don't ever say "when I gave birth" or any variation on that. It feels completely wrong to me. So, I guess to answer your question...I use birth/born when describing my child's arrival. I don't use them to describe my own experience.

 

Oddly, though...I say "when i was born" and "on my birthday", habitually. But, when I actually think about those terms...no, I don't really feel as though they apply to me. I don't feel that I was "born"...but I don't know what else to call it, so I just stick with the accepted and understood terminology. Trying to explain my feelings about my own arrival "earthside" is extremely difficult, anyway.


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#194 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:01 PM
 
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CatsCradle, that is the way I see it, too.

A birth is about two people. The mother may not feel that she gave birth, but someone was still born. So, it only makes sense that you can call it a cesarean birth, in regards to the child.

I think the only reason people get upset about hearing it negated is because it just doesn't make sense in one part of the application. I understand women feeling like they didn't give birth, though. That they 'had a cesarean section' instead of 'gave birth by cesarean' or 'had a cesarean birth', but the child was still 'born by c-section' or 'had a cesarean birth'. It just gets into semantics.

And if some people do still have the idea that it wasn't even birth, then I feel like it is valid to point out the inconsistency of that as a concept, but not really push it to an individual person because it is truly the way they feel. It's a hard balance! When I see it, I actually only see 'cesarean birth' applying to how my child was born. Not because I, myself, am sad about the surgery, but because, for some reason, I think the birth mostly applies to my child anyway.

So, being a fan of language, it is frustrating to have 'cesarean birth' only applied one way, but at the same time, the actual name of a forum doesn't bother me. It's mostly thought of as 'c-sections' or 'cesareans' anyway. It doesn't even bother me if someone says I didn't give birth. I don't think about it too much. Maybe I didn't give birth, perse. But, the children were still born; they had a cesarean birth. Even the "CBAC" that ICAN uses means 'cesarean birth after cesarean"; ( just thought of that since it is CBAC week over there!) Hope that makes sense, it seems like such a simple thing that then becomes so convoluted when we all analyze it!

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#195 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:03 PM
 
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I really think we're getting off topic here and starting to nitpick. I'm sure those of us who want the forum would be 100% happy if it were called Caesareans. *Everyone's* experiences are valid, that's the whole point of the request in the first place, and no one -- no one -- wants a rah rah C-sections! forum. But if we start fighting with each other at this point, the mods are just going to let us until it gets out of hand, then they're going to shut down the thread for review, and we're never going to hear anything more about it. I think it's obvious from the amount of traffic this thread has generated that there is considerable support for the idea. Even Storm Bride has said she's in favour. 


And mods, if you're listening, please take into account the vast changes Mothering has undergone in the last year or so. There have been a lot of things (Facebook connections, ads and comments by certain religious groups, the magazine folding) that have alienated viewers and caused migration to other boards, and made it clear that Mothering's values are malleable. We are clearly stating what we would like, and I don't think it's an unreasonable request or even one that is in conflict with "Mothering Values," whatever the hell those are, anyway. It's kind of strange to place a value judgment on a surgical intervention that a lot of us undergo through absolutely no fault of our own. You may as well demonize appendectomies, for all that makes sense.

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#196 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:08 PM
 
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And FWIW, I had my first vaginally. Five hours from the beginning twinges of labour to baby in my hands. The second, I laboured 30 hours and had an emergency c-section. I was pretty near half-dead (in and out of consciousness and pretty much a floppy rag doll and very much in pain) by the time the surgeon and anesthesiologist managed to co-ordinate their schedules and I had I been able to feel much of anything at all, I would have been relieved. I certainly was relieved after the whole ordeal was done. I felt far more connected to the birth of my second than of my first. I felt we had gone through some serious life-threatening battle together, and managed to emerge exhausted but alive, together, on the other side. So there's that.

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#197 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:09 PM
 
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I really think we're getting off topic here and starting to nitpick. I'm sure those of us who want the forum would be 100% happy if it were called Caesareans. *Everyone's* experiences are valid, that's the whole point of the request in the first place, and no one -- no one -- wants a rah rah C-sections! forum. But if we start fighting with each other at this point, the mods are just going to let us until it gets out of hand, then they're going to shut down the thread for review, and we're never going to hear anything more about it. I think it's obvious from the amount of traffic this thread has generated that there is considerable support for the idea. Even Storm Bride has said she's in favour. 


And mods, if you're listening, please take into account the vast changes Mothering has undergone in the last year or so. There have been a lot of things (Facebook connections, ads and comments by certain religious groups, the magazine folding) that have alienated viewers and caused migration to other boards, and made it clear that Mothering's values are malleable. We are clearly stating what we would like, and I don't think it's an unreasonable request or even one that is in conflict with "Mothering Values," whatever the hell those are, anyway. It's kind of strange to place a value judgment on a surgical intervention that a lot of us undergo through absolutely no fault of our own. You may as well demonize appendectomies, for all that makes sense.

 

I'm glad you articulated this so well Annie, I've been thinking this all day. 
 

 


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#198 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:09 PM
 
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CatsCradle, that is the way I see it, too.

A birth is about two people. The mother may not feel that she gave birth, but someone was still born. So, it only makes sense that you can call it a cesarean birth, in regards to the child.

I think the only reason people get upset about hearing it negated is because it just doesn't make sense in one part of the application. I understand women feeling like they didn't give birth, though. That they 'had a cesarean section' instead of 'gave birth by cesarean' or 'had a cesarean birth', but the child was still 'born by c-section' or 'had a cesarean birth'. It just gets into semantics.

And if some people do still have the idea that it wasn't even birth, then I feel like it is valid to point out the inconsistency of that as a concept, but not really push it to an individual person because it is truly the way they feel. It's a hard balance! When I see it, I actually only see 'cesarean birth' applying to how my child was born. Not because I, myself, am sad about the surgery, but because, for some reason, I think the birth mostly applies to my child anyway.

 

I'm not sure where you see any inconsistency. My children were born by c-section...but it was the OB who did it, not me. I didn't do anything. My children's births weren't about "two people". They were about a whole surgical team and a baby...my presence was necessary, but clearly peripheral, for all that. I certainly wasn't involved, except for being there.


So, being a fan of language, it is frustrating to have 'cesarean birth' only applied one way, but at the same time, the actual name of a forum doesn't bother me. It's mostly thought of as 'c-sections' or 'cesareans' anyway. It doesn't even bother me if someone says I didn't give birth. I don't think about it too much. Maybe I didn't give birth, perse. But, the children were still born; they had a cesarean birth. Even the "CBAC" that ICAN uses means 'cesarean birth after cesarean"; ( just thought of that since it is CBAC week over there!) Hope that makes sense, it seems like such a simple thing that then becomes so convoluted when we all analyze it!

 

Wow - that's funny. I'd never even really thought of it before. I think "CBAC", to me, was a term unto itself, yk? I know it's an abbreviation and that it's derived from VBAC, but I never really thought about what the "B" means. I'm glad you pointed it out, because it's kind of intriguing...I've seen it used many times by women who, like me, reject "cesarean birth" in other contexts. I've done it myself. The human brain is weird.



 


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#199 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:12 PM
 
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And mods, if you're listening, please take into account the vast changes Mothering has undergone in the last year or so. There have been a lot of things (Facebook connections, ads and comments by certain religious groups, the magazine folding) that have alienated viewers and caused migration to other boards, and made it clear that Mothering's values are malleable. We are clearly stating what we would like, and I don't think it's an unreasonable request or even one that is in conflict with "Mothering Values," whatever the hell those are, anyway. It's kind of strange to place a value judgment on a surgical intervention that a lot of us undergo through absolutely no fault of our own. You may as well demonize appendectomies, for all that makes sense.



Exactly. Being supportive of natural birth isn't the same thing as marginalizing women who have had c-sections.

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#200 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:16 PM
 
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I really think we're getting off topic here and starting to nitpick. I'm sure those of us who want the forum would be 100% happy if it were called Caesareans. *Everyone's* experiences are valid, that's the whole point of the request in the first place, and no one -- no one -- wants a rah rah C-sections! forum. But if we start fighting with each other at this point, the mods are just going to let us until it gets out of hand, then they're going to shut down the thread for review, and we're never going to hear anything more about it. I think it's obvious from the amount of traffic this thread has generated that there is considerable support for the idea. Even Storm Bride has said she's in favour. 


And mods, if you're listening, please take into account the vast changes Mothering has undergone in the last year or so. There have been a lot of things (Facebook connections, ads and comments by certain religious groups, the magazine folding) that have alienated viewers and caused migration to other boards, and made it clear that Mothering's values are malleable. We are clearly stating what we would like, and I don't think it's an unreasonable request or even one that is in conflict with "Mothering Values," whatever the hell those are, anyway. It's kind of strange to place a value judgment on a surgical intervention that a lot of us undergo through absolutely no fault of our own. You may as well demonize appendectomies, for all that makes sense.


yeahthat.gif Very well said.

 

It would be nice to hear something from the mods, even if it's just "we are still discussing this idea". That would be better than to just leave us hanging without a word.

 


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#201 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:23 PM
 
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Storm bride, I think the difference is, your children had a 'cesarean birth'. So, the term itself can be valid. It just isn't valid, to you, in both applications. Which I understand! I think that makes a lot of sense. 'Cesarean birth' in terms of you 'giving birth' isn't true, to you and a lot of people, and even terms of an argument, I think it makes sense to argue that someone didn't really 'give birth'. But 'cesarean birth' in terms of your children being born is true.

So, on that line of thought, I truly think 'c-sections' or 'cesareans' is a perfectly fine name for a forum. "Cesarean birth' doesn't have to be pushed because it really does have two different applications! One that makes lots of sense because a child was obviously born, but the other that is much more debatable, which is 'giving birth by cesarean'.

I know it's kind of ridiculous to even keep talking about it, but I think that is the miscommunication that people are having and why it can seem offensive sometimes, when it's really not. Of course, your child was born, but some people, reasonably, don't feel that they have given birth, so since that term can mean two things, let's just not use it and use something more common anyway!

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#202 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 03:43 PM
 
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In many areas of the country, it is almost impossible to find anyone to preside at a VBAC -- midwife or OB. 

 

What this means is that the MDC party line of "If you fail at birth and have a section, you MUST have a VBAC" is, for all intents and purposes, a party line that requires UC.  Because for a great many people, the only realistic way to VBAC is to UCAC.   

 

It's great to recommend VBAC and help women find a way to make it happen.  But all too often, the "help" is increasingly ridiculous:  "Hugs mama!  Have you considered quitting your job and moving to another state for your last month of pregnancy?"  "I know someone who drove 4 hours in labor to an unlicensed midwife!"   "Just don't tell your midwife about the section, and  hide the scar!"    

 

And people who say "Um, those are incredibly unrealistic things to do, given my life as it actually exists," are then told they can't talk about their c-sections at MDC, because saying "Those ways of attempting VBAC are incredibly unrealistic for me,"  is apparently exactly the same as saying "Csections are great! Everyone should have one to save their vagina from getting all stretchy!!"  

 

And women posting about making the best of the birth situation as it exists are accused of "promoting" sections.


This is SO WELL SAID, Savithny. This is what I go through every time I talk about my birth choices for this pregnancy. Thank you for this post. hug.gif


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#203 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 05:14 PM
 
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"Not a surgical procedure"? I don't even know how to talk to you about this, as you're plainly denying reality. I can see no reason why someone can't see it as a birth, in addition to being a surgical procedure, but as soon as you say that a process wherein a surgeon cuts you open in an operating room isn't a surgical procedure, you've lost me.

 

I'm not telling you how to label your experience. I'm saying that calling the forum "cesarean birth" is labelling everyone's experience. You're actually upset that your experience isn't valid enough to have a forum with the name you want? How on earth should one person's experience determine the name of an entire forum?? I'm certainly not asking for that  ("cesareans" is a compromise suggestion, as I've never thought of it as anything other than "c-section", or just "surgery" and "cesareans" contains all the possible perspectives). Somehow, I'm the one who is being upsetting? You have no right, nor does MDC, to put a label on my experience that doesn't fit my experience. But, you think you do, because it fits yours.

 

How does posting about your cesarean birth, in a forum called "Cesareans" take away your experience? Why do you feel the need to drive people with a different cesarean experience into a completely different forum? Several people say that MDC currently only "allows" people to talk about their c-sections if they're traumatized by, or ashamed of, them. Do you think it's better to only allow discussion of cesareans by people who aren't?  Telling someone who has had five c-sections that she shouldn't post in a forum about cesareans, because you don't like the way she sees her experience is...I don't even have the words.


I would put the question back to you...how is using the term "births" in a birthing forum offensive?  Excluding the descriptor "birth" minimizes the experience.   Why should your objection to the term "birth" dictate that an entire forum be devoid of the name, when it is about BIRTHS.  

 

And, I wrote the post in a heated moment.  It should have included the word "just" in front of "surgical procedure".    Referring to it solely as a surgical procedure, with no other context, it emotionally dishonest.  I have had many surgical procedures in my life, most of them pelvic surgeries, and even in that instance, they really don't compare, either emotionally or physically.  Heck, IME, the delivery rooms are not set up, visually, the same way that other ORs are set up, and they are often in a different part of the building than the regular ORs are.  It is just a very different experience than any other type of surgery.

 

And, I gave birth by Cesearean section.  It was giving birth. I did the work.  I did the healing.  I had the pain.  It was giving birth in every way.


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#204 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 05:16 PM
 
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I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the Spanish term for giving birth is "dar a luz" which means give light to, which certainly happens vaginally or via c-section.

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#205 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 05:32 PM
 
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Agreed! 100%!
 

 

And, I gave birth by Cesearean section.  It was giving birth. I did the work.  I did the healing.  I had the pain.  It was giving birth in every way.



 

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#206 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 05:35 PM
 
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I really think we're getting off topic here and starting to nitpick. I'm sure those of us who want the forum would be 100% happy if it were called Caesareans. *Everyone's* experiences are valid, that's the whole point of the request in the first place, and no one -- no one -- wants a rah rah C-sections! forum. But if we start fighting with each other at this point, the mods are just going to let us until it gets out of hand, then they're going to shut down the thread for review, and we're never going to hear anything more about it. I think it's obvious from the amount of traffic this thread has generated that there is considerable support for the idea. Even Storm Bride has said she's in favour. 


And mods, if you're listening, please take into account the vast changes Mothering has undergone in the last year or so. There have been a lot of things (Facebook connections, ads and comments by certain religious groups, the magazine folding) that have alienated viewers and caused migration to other boards, and made it clear that Mothering's values are malleable. We are clearly stating what we would like, and I don't think it's an unreasonable request or even one that is in conflict with "Mothering Values," whatever the hell those are, anyway. It's kind of strange to place a value judgment on a surgical intervention that a lot of us undergo through absolutely no fault of our own. You may as well demonize appendectomies, for all that makes sense.


 

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Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

(in response to Annie Mac's comment of "I don't think it's an unreasonable request or even one that is in conflict with 'Mothering Values'")

 

Exactly. Being supportive of natural birth isn't the same thing as marginalizing women who have had c-sections.


 

Being supportive of natural birth isn't the same thing as marginalizing women who have had c-sections, absolutely right.  And yet that has been the clear point of view of the Mothering community at large as long as I have been reading here (which is much, much longer than I've been registered as a member).  I believe that by having a forum for c-sections can demonstrate that being supportive of those people isn't the same thing as marginalizing those who have had vaginal births. 

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#207 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 05:53 PM
 
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OK, I will calm down.  Here is an blatently honest opionion of how MDC handles Cesarean Births:

 

This community does an AWESOME job at dealing with the initial stages of grief when your birth goes wrong.  Truly.  There are very few places where you can be angry about a UC or homebirth or birthing center birth that turns into a C-section, and have people understand why you feel like you failed, even if you get a healthy baby out of it.  (heck, even a live baby).  This place is wonderful at understanding that emotional upheaval and why you are traumatized and upset.

 

Where this community really drops the ball, however, is when you want to get past the anger, past the hurt, and come to peace with the experience.  It is the unspoken "status quo" to be angry about medical interventions.  It is perfectly acceptable here to spend YEARS in the anger phase of your grief.  It is perfectly acceptable to be so enraged by the experience that you narrow your vision to demonize any birth that is not "perfect".  However, in a healthy person, you have to get past this.  Right now there is no place where you can have the guidence of parents who have been through it, have the same value system you do IRT raising your family, and found a way to heal and even rejoice in their births.  

 

It isn't about being "rah-rah C-SECTION!", it is about being "rah-rah BIRTH".  It is about dealing with the reality that birth is hard, and birth is joyful, and birth is emotional, and how the moment transpired should eventually be secondary to the fact that it did happen and you are now a parent.  You can't change the past.  You can learn from it, you can plan for future events, but, like parenting, part of it is learning to be at peace when things don't go as you wish, peace with the fact that sometimes the best thing you can do is just relinquish control and allow others to help you along the way, and that you can survive and thrive and move forward.  We need a place here where people who don't have an ideal situation can have an ideal place to move forward so that we can be the best parents we can be to the lives we bring into the world.


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#208 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 06:18 PM
 
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OK, I will calm down.  Here is an blatently honest opionion of how MDC handles Cesarean Births:

 

This community does an AWESOME job at dealing with the initial stages of grief when your birth goes wrong.  Truly.  There are very few places where you can be angry about a UC or homebirth or birthing center birth that turns into a C-section, and have people understand why you feel like you failed, even if you get a healthy baby out of it.  (heck, even a live baby).  This place is wonderful at understanding that emotional upheaval and why you are traumatized and upset.

 

Where this community really drops the ball, however, is when you want to get past the anger, past the hurt, and come to peace with the experience.  It is the unspoken "status quo" to be angry about medical interventions.  It is perfectly acceptable here to spend YEARS in the anger phase of your grief.  It is perfectly acceptable to be so enraged by the experience that you narrow your vision to demonize any birth that is not "perfect".  However, in a healthy person, you have to get past this.  Right now there is no place where you can have the guidence of parents who have been through it, have the same value system you do IRT raising your family, and found a way to heal and even rejoice in their births.  

 

It isn't about being "rah-rah C-SECTION!", it is about being "rah-rah BIRTH".  It is about dealing with the reality that birth is hard, and birth is joyful, and birth is emotional, and how the moment transpired should eventually be secondary to the fact that it did happen and you are now a parent.  You can't change the past.  You can learn from it, you can plan for future events, but, like parenting, part of it is learning to be at peace when things don't go as you wish, peace with the fact that sometimes the best thing you can do is just relinquish control and allow others to help you along the way, and that you can survive and thrive and move forward.  We need a place here where people who don't have an ideal situation can have an ideal place to move forward so that we can be the best parents we can be to the lives we bring into the world.


I agree with the need for a forum, and with a lot of the reasons for it.

 

However, there is no way that i can read this as anything but an attack on people like me. I also want to let you know that I won't be responding to any of your posts, because, whether you mean to or not, you're radiating a vibe of "I'm superior to those who are struggling longer/harder than I did", and I'm having a really hard time not coming back with all guns blazing, so I'm blocking you, to prevent this thread from deteriorating any further than it already has. I'm not letting you know in a snit...just don't want you thinking I'm ignoring you if you happen to address me directly.

I've got my peace. I'm never having a c-section again, and that's good enough for me. It's not peace, but it's a reasonable fascimile. I don't need to rejoice. Rejoicing in my c-sections would be...sick. (And, PLEASE nobody put any more words in my mouth. I said "MY" c-sections, in MY situation, with MY history, with the way MINE played out. That has NOTHING to do with anybody else, or their responses to their own c-sections.)


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#209 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 06:30 PM
 
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I'd be completely fine with calling a forum Cesearians, and letting the people who post use the language they want to describe their experience. I also have no interest whatsoever in telling anyone that that should be calling their experience a birth if they don't want to. I just want people to be able to talk about not-terrible-or-even-better experiences they had without being made to feel as though they were going to be responsible for a traffic accident.

 

A pro-NCB environment doesn't have to marginalize women who had c-sections, but this place always has, and it is completely disengenous to pretend otherwise. It is also utter nonsense to claim that people who had bad experiences will be silenced just because other people are allowed to speak of not-bad, ok, or better, experiences without being told that they were duped, that they were birth-raped and can't admit it yet, or are expressing a concept so very odd and alien that it defies belief, and while of course they're allowed to say whatever they want, it's just that it's so hurtful to other people that those readers now feel like crying and throwing up.

 

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#210 of 366 Old 11-04-2011, 06:31 PM
 
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Stormbride, since you addressed me specifically, I do want to respond.  I hope you are still listening.

 

I know you are traumitized by your births.  I don't think there is a single doubt of anybody who has known you over the years.  I honestly feel bad for you.  I genuinely hope you seek out some help in real life, because nobody should have to live with the continual level of stress that you do, especially this far out of your births.  You are still so raw, and in so much pain, and you have to know that there are people out there that can help you navigate through that and come out the other side of it a strong person.  You are capable of healing and finding joy again, but you have to be willing to let go of the pain and anger so that positive feelings can live alongside them.  You are strong enough to not let that moment color everything in your life since that moment.  Please, I implore you, to let people in.  Let people help ease some of the pain.

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