c-birth/c-section/surgical birth forum request - Page 9 - Mothering Forums

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Old 11-05-2011, 05:46 PM
 
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: r i b c e s

Thank you so much! I knew it was :rib-something, but everything I tried wasn't it.

ribboncesarean.gif cesareans happen.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:00 PM
 
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Just weighing in as a newbie to the whole AP/NP thing and to this kind of community in general.  I never, never knew that anybody would feel that there was a difference between "C-section," "c-birth," "surgical birth," etc.  If asked, I likely would've thought they were all interchangeable.  I have had a c-section, btw.  None of the three terms is offensive to me, though I have certainly learned that there are many, many opinions on the matter.

 

What is accepted as correct/politically correct to one person may differ entirely to another.

 

My MIL (short hijack here, but read on...) thought the p.c. term for people with intellectual disabilities (which, by the way, is the p.c. term) was "the retarded."  She absolutely meant no offense in using it and was using the term that she had most recently thought was appropriate and respectful. 

 

Just a thought.  Semantics to some, intention to others.

 

 


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Old 11-05-2011, 07:01 PM
 
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I would see it as you DID give birth to them, you just didnt deliver them. You did create them and grow them inside your body until they were ready to come out (be born), so in my mind you did give birth.

 

I already know this is quite likely to come across as being belligerent (it seems many of my posts do, even though I don't intend the vast majority of them that way), but...what difference does it make how you see my experience? One of the things many women in this thread are justifiably objecting to is the fact that other people try to define their experiences for them (by labeling those experiences in ways the people who lived them don't find accurate), so why are you (or anyone else) trying to talk me into labelling mine in a way that doesn't reflect it accurately?


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Old 11-05-2011, 07:03 PM
 
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I'm curious how people who think that "birth" is an inappropriate term for cesareans consider twilight births, when the mother was knocked out and the baby delivered vaginally, as was common many years ago in the U.S.  Is it still birth simply because it's vaginal, or not at all because the mother didn't do any work?



I can't really see any way to argue with that being birth.

 

However, I doubt I'd have felt that I'd given birth if I were one of the women subjected to that. I'd have probably used the phrase "I gave birth", because there'd be no other way to phrase it, but it probably wouldn't have felt right. I really can't say, though - there is some spillover effect from one's culture, so if being drugged to the point of not being aware of what was happening to me was the norm for giving birth, I'd have been looking at in from within that context, and may not have thought twice about it. (The part in green was added later, as I was reading the post and realized I never finished the sentence.)

 

Of course, I don't consider birth to be an inappropriate term for everybody's cesareans, anway. I consider it inappropriate for mine, and for any other woman who doesn't feel/believe that she gave birth. The only cesarean birth I've ever had was the one in '68.


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Old 11-05-2011, 07:41 PM
 
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post



I'm curious how people who think that "birth" is an inappropriate term for cesareans consider twilight births, when the mother was knocked out and the baby delivered vaginally, as was common many years ago in the U.S.  Is it still birth simply because it's vaginal, or not at all because the mother didn't do any work?



I think it's up to the individual woman to define her own experience.

 

Personally I would find a forum called "Caesarean birth" or "c-birth" a bit grating because I do not define my experience as one of "giving birth". For those people who are struggling with the idea of a person who had a caesar feeling that they didn't give birth find it easier to think in terms of "giving birth" not "birth"?

 

I played no significant role in the bringing forth of my daughter from my body. There was no physical effort required. There was no pain (after wards there was some pain but not during the extraction process). I had no labour, she got none of the hormonal benefits of labour. Her gut was colonised by flora contributed by the Theatre staff. Her airways were cleared by suctioning not by my muscles squeezing her. I was probably about the fifth or sixth person to touch her. 

 

I have no problem with other people defining their c/s as giving birth but nothing about what  *I* experienced constitutes giving birth as I define it *for me*. And the fact that I conceived and gestated her really has nothing to do with it either for me.

 

So yes, I would really prefer that the hypothetical forum was called "Caesareans" which seems to me to exclude no-one. 


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Old 11-05-2011, 08:02 PM
 
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"My baby is now in the world, but I didn't give birth to him/her.  He/she was taken out of my body, there was no participation on my part.  This makes me feel as if he/she was not someone I gave birth to so, therefore, I feel cheated/angry/sad/ashamed/disconnected etc.," can be very healing and powerful for a mother who is grappling with how to come to terms with the often intense emotions of her experience."

rainbow_mandala, but what I think you are still talking about is the mother 'giving birth', not the baby being born. Two different experiences for two different people. I guess that it is just so clear to me now. It used to confuse me a bit that anyone would not consider it a birth, but then I realized that it isn't the 'birth' that is usually confusing, it is the 'giving birth'.

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Old 11-05-2011, 08:16 PM
 
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Oh, mods...please...something...before we all start peeing in our pre-folds and throwing organic fruit at each other...

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Old 11-05-2011, 08:21 PM
 
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So yes, I would really prefer that the hypothetical forum was called "Caesareans" which seems to me to exclude no-one. 

Agreed.









Maybe now we should argue if it's cesarean or caesarean. redface.gifwinky.gif

Don't care, as long as we get a forum!

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Old 11-05-2011, 08:33 PM
 
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As far as a name for the forum-that-will-never-be: How about "The Cesarean Experience"?  All-encompassing enough?

 

FWIW, I've had two c-secs and I personally don't feel that that I gave birth...rather, I feel that I had birth taken away. 

 

And on a somewhat related note, I also don't like to hear women who had a vaginal birth say their baby was "delivered" by Dr. So-and-So.  If you pushed the baby out, you delivered it yourself!  Your birth professional attended your birth.  But that's just my worthless opinion.  :)


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Old 11-06-2011, 05:35 AM
 
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I'm curious how people who think that "birth" is an inappropriate term for cesareans consider twilight births, when the mother was knocked out and the baby delivered vaginally, as was common many years ago in the U.S.  Is it still birth simply because it's vaginal, or not at all because the mother didn't do any work?


I think this is a great point.  Even when my mil had my husband in 1970, they knocked her out at the pushing part once he was about to be born.  She was very, very upset.  This had happened with her first baby who passed away shortly after he was born.

 

I'm not sure about the whole "giving birth" and "birth" language.  Make a forum Ceasareans......(or however you spell it)

 


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Old 11-06-2011, 06:36 AM
 
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My MIL, who is in her 70s, told me her two vaginal births were "lightning fast" and "almost painless."  I have often wondered if hers were the twilight variety.

 

Well, MDCers, are we all settled down this morning, or shall I get out the marshmallows to roast?


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Old 11-06-2011, 06:57 AM
 
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I had had vagional births with all of my children...but I prepared for my last birth to be either a vagional or a c-section because I was pregnant with twins...I prepared myself for it to go either way...so I would have LOVED to read stories about c-sections here...also as a mom of multiples c-sections happen a lot more with multiple births so the information is needed....I mean we have members here who are pregnant with higher order multiples so they should be able to have to information available. 

 

Oh and I never really pushed my last 3 kids out...It was complete reflex of my body....I didn't bare down or any of that...but I still gave birth to them. 

 

Strom Bride...I wonder how your children are going to feel or feel when you tell them you didn't give birth to them...I mean My kids are still very young so I haven't crossed that path yet but I know all kids are curious about their birth.  I would think you would want to tell your kids that having them was the happiest day of your life....Which I hope was dispite your birth experience or lack of experience. 


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Old 11-06-2011, 07:02 AM
 
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Wow, what a damn good question.

 

Takes it down to-- is vaginal birth "giving birth" and c-section not because

a) the orifice the baby comes out of

b) the amount of work involved

?

 

Really, until this thread, I had never even thought of the terminology like this.  I always thought that someone gave birth through c-section.  But then I have never called it "C-birth", always just "C-section."  
 

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I'm curious how people who think that "birth" is an inappropriate term for cesareans consider twilight births, when the mother was knocked out and the baby delivered vaginally, as was common many years ago in the U.S.  Is it still birth simply because it's vaginal, or not at all because the mother didn't do any work?



 


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Old 11-06-2011, 07:16 AM
 
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Dude.  You made a human person.  You carried him, your body nourished him and grew him from a cell into a living breathing baby.  You had to go through surgery that many of us don't have to deal with, and you definitely got your "share" of the pain and recovery from pregnancy and childbirth.  And... YOU MADE A HUMAN PERSON.  That is amazing, regardless of the orifice.  

 

I think sometimes people put too much emphasis on birth, which is just a means to an end.

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As someone who may never give birth, this is really, really hard to read. greensad.gif

 

My cousin just gave birth after 48 hours of labor in the hospital. Vaginal birth. Everyone on Facebook cannot stop talking about how amazing she is. Nobody ever said that about me and my CS. Ever. To be honest, I can't stop crying about it right now. A VBAC is practically impossible for me.

 

I keep hoping that a real c-section forum will help me with these feelings. I want to recapture the joy and magic of birth, even if that has to be done in the context of a c-section. This is going to mean talking positively about c-sections and planning for mine in a positive and joyous way. It certainly doesn't help me to be told that I haven't completed the natural cycle.



 


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Old 11-06-2011, 07:17 AM
 
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That is a really good question Bokonon. I guess it really just comes down to how each mother views her own experience regardless of outside perception.

 

 

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if we actually had a forum where we could discuss this? winky.gif


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Old 11-06-2011, 09:16 AM
 
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Dude.  You made a human person.  You carried him, your body nourished him and grew him from a cell into a living breathing baby.  You had to go through surgery that many of us don't have to deal with, and you definitely got your "share" of the pain and recovery from pregnancy and childbirth.  And... YOU MADE A HUMAN PERSON.  That is amazing, regardless of the orifice.  

 

I think sometimes people put too much emphasis on birth, which is just a means to an end.


Thank you for this!

 


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Old 11-06-2011, 10:09 AM
 
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I can't believe we're actually arguing whether or not a Cesarean is a birth or not. A birth, is a birth to me. Whether it happened vaginally, Cesarean, vacuumed out etc. A baby comes out of the mother's womb, into the world.


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Old 11-06-2011, 10:28 AM
 
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Strom Bride...I wonder how your children are going to feel or feel when you tell them you didn't give birth to them...I mean My kids are still very young so I haven't crossed that path yet but I know all kids are curious about their birth.  I would think you would want to tell your kids that having them was the happiest day of your life....Which I hope was dispite your birth experience or lack of experience. 

 

I don't know how my children will feel about it. DS1 knows how I feel about the whole thing, because he watched me go through the whole experience with all my subsequent children. I dno't think he's ever equated my feelings about how he got here with my feelings about him, fortunately - they're very separate things. I don't get into my own terminology about. it. They know they came out through an incision, instead of through my vagina, and the "reasons" why (which I make sound a lot more reasonable than I think they are). It's not like I go around telling them, "I didn't give birth to you". I don't say "I gave birth to you", but when we talk about it, I talk about vaginal birth, and talk about the fact that they were born through the incision (dd1 and ds2 have both seen fresh incisions, and the older scars), instead.

 

No - the dates when my children were born were not the happiest days of my life - not even close. They were effing miserable. I was happy to see my babies - very happy. But the rest of the experience sucked (and in ds1's case, I didn't see him, except for about 5 seconds while I was stoned out of my skull on morphine, until the next day, anyway). If I could handle the gap in my memory, I'd rather not remember my babies getting here at all, and have stated - more than once - a clear preference for being unconscious from general anesthesia over being aware and present for the cesarean.
 

However, ime, how kids feel about it is is going to have at least as much to do with the kids, as the mom. My mom was pretty matter of fact about her cesareans, and i was still pretty freaked out when I realized how I was born. It bothered me on visceral level, even as a kid. To the best of my knowledge, neither my brother nor my sister were ever bothered by it in the slightest. Different people, different personalities.

 

DD1 has already informed me that she "probably won't be able" to push a baby out. It doesn't seem to bother her, though.


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Old 11-06-2011, 10:33 AM
 
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Maybe now we should argue if it's cesarean or caesarean. redface.gifwinky.gif
 


LOL.

 

I always used "caesarean" until about the time I had dd2. When I realized that I literally didn't know anybody else who was still using that spelling, I let it go. ("Cesarean" still looks a bit odd to me, but I'm getting used to it.)


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Old 11-06-2011, 10:35 AM
 
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I just wanted to add my voice to say I agree we should have a cesarean forum on MDC. 

 

I also want to suggest that PPs consider dropping the conversation of "what is a birth" and "does each mother have the right to call her experience birth or not." These would be awesome topics in a cesarean forum, but the forum doesn't exist yet, and I feel like it's getting us off topic. This is not because I want to silence your voices, it's just that in this thread, the real question, IMO, is to the Mods: Can we have a cesarean forum?


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Old 11-06-2011, 10:35 AM
 
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I can't believe we're actually arguing whether or not a Cesarean is a birth or not. A birth, is a birth to me. Whether it happened vaginally, Cesarean, vacuumed out etc. A baby comes out of the mother's womb, into the world.



And, not to me. That's kind of been my whole point all along. I'm not trying to argue about whether it is or isn't a birth. I'm arguing that I shouldn't have to call it that, if that's not what it is, to me...just as others shouldn't have to not call it that, if thtat's what it is, to them.


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Old 11-06-2011, 10:50 AM
 
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I just wanted to add my voice to say I agree we should have a cesarean forum on MDC. 

 

I also want to suggest that PPs consider dropping the conversation of "what is a birth" and "does each mother have the right to call her experience birth or not." These would be awesome topics in a cesarean forum, but the forum doesn't exist yet, and I feel like it's getting us off topic. This is not because I want to silence your voices, it's just that in this thread, the real question, IMO, is to the Mods: Can we have a cesarean forum?



Fair enough.

 

I'm finding the resounding silence less than reassuring....but maybe it just means they're still talking about it.


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Old 11-06-2011, 10:56 AM
 
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Fair enough.

 

I'm finding the resounding silence less than reassuring....but maybe it just means they're still talking about it.



Let's hope so.


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Old 11-06-2011, 11:28 AM
 
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No - the dates when my children were born were not the happiest days of my life - not even close.



Yeah, I'm not with this rhetoric either. I had an easy vaginal birth with no complications, but I wouldn't say that was the happiest day of my life. It frickin' HURT. Sure, I'm glad I have her, but I would submit almost any other intervening day as equally or more happy than the day she was born. That was just the start to the happiness that is my child, not the pinnacle.

 

There's a gag in a Miss Manners book about this--the young bride got her wish, for her wedding to be the happiest day of her life; each ensuing day was progressively less happy until the couple divorced.

 

Can you tell I think "happiest days" are overrated?

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Old 11-06-2011, 01:08 PM
 
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If I could handle the gap in my memory, I'd rather not remember my babies getting here at all, and have stated - more than once - a clear preference for being unconscious from general anesthesia over being aware and present for the cesarean.

 


At the risk of incurring general wrath for asking...I still want to ask...why?

 

 

 


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Old 11-06-2011, 01:26 PM
 
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I just wanted to say that I think a c-section forum would be awesome for MDC.  With them representing 33% of all births in the US, it seems silly not to.


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Old 11-06-2011, 02:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by caedenmomma View Post

At the risk of incurring general wrath for asking...I still want to ask...why?

 


 

Because I find being awake for a cesarean to be a vile, grotesque, horrifyingly unpleasant experience. It's not because it's a cesarean, as such. It's because it's surgery. I hate everything about it, with a strong emphasis on the anesthesia itself. I loathe being numb - in general day to day life, if I have a choice between pain and numbness, I prefer pain. (I don't receive freezing for dental fillings, for instance - the drilling hurts, but it's better than the numbness after the needle.) Obviously, the pain of surgery being performed is beyond what I could reasonably handle...but that just means that both choices suck. I don't like being unconscious, either - I really don't like knowing things have happened - especially major things - without my recollection...but in that particular case, it's better than the alternative. In addition to being numb, I also hate the creepy sensations that do make through the numbness. I hate the OR. It's just an awful experience all around. The baby is great...although the "lying flat on my back, unable to hold the baby without help" part isn't. But, everything about the process of getting the baby out surgically is hellish.

 

Being unconscious for my first one was a piece of cake, by comparison (although I could have done without the multiple post-op drugs I was given once I started to come out of it). Being unconscious for my fourth one was a piece of cake, too...but that one's a bit different, because I really didn't want to wake up at all.


Lisa, lucky mama of Kelly (3/93) ribboncesarean.gif, Emma (5/03) ribboncesarean.gif, Evan (7/05) ribboncesarean.gif, & Jenna (6/09) ribboncesarean.gif
Loving my amazing dh, James & forever missing ribbonpb.gif Aaron Ambrose ribboncesarean.gif (11/07) ribbonpb.gif

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Old 11-06-2011, 03:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by caedenmomma View Post

 


At the risk of incurring general wrath for asking...I still want to ask...why?

 

 

 



I actually prefer to be awake. But I've also asked to be awake for all but one other surgery I've every had in my life as well. I also ask to watch the whole thing whenever possible. Still disappointed that I couldn't watch my c-section. But that is me.

 

But I can totally understand not wanting to be awake for the experience. If you've labored for a while you are just plain tired. Everyone takes to anesthesia differently meaning that levels may need to be adjusted and you might feel something (I did, it was quickly corrected, but twice during my 1st c-section I could feel). For my second I lay on a narrow table with one hip slightly propped. This made me feel like I could fall off the table and like I couldn't breath. Lying on my back made me feel like I couldn't breath. The spinal made me feel like I couldn't breath. I finally asked the anesthesiologist for something for anxiety due to my panic about breathing. It's cold in the operating room. Etc. Etc. It's just a very uncomfortable experience overall. The cocktail in the spinal or epidural makes me itch for days after wards making we call for drugs every 20 minutes and want to claw my skin off.  If you top that experience off with emotional upheaval it just sucks (which I did not have. I was okay with my c-sections). It's not like you really get to spend any real time with baby until you are sewed up and in recovery anyway.

 

I never had general. But I had a spinal for one and an epidural for the other. I can certain ally compare and contrast. I prefer ed the epidural, Stormbride prefer ed general, I'm sure others prefer a spinal. I'm guessing they all have their pros and cons. Wouldn't it be nice if there was somewhere to discuss these ideas, such as a Cesarean forum?

 

I'm also interested in the difference between a cesarean and a caesarean. The second looks more correct to me, but until it was pointed out in this thread I never noticed the different spellings.


Mom to DS 4/24/03 and DD 4/17/06
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JollyGG View Post

Wouldn't it be nice if there was somewhere to discuss these ideas, such as a Cesarean forum?

 


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Sandy (41), Mama to Oscar (Feb 2009) and Aria (April 2012), infertility and miscarriage survivor brokenheart.gif 11/25/10 and brokenheart.gif 6/22/11.

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