Why is pro-vaccine talk fully supported (even encouraged - it has its own board) - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 121 Old 09-27-2012, 07:41 PM
 
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I'm assuming YOU means me, correct?

 

I was only clarifying the fact that "anti-vaxxer" need not be a dirty word.

 

 

NO! NO! NO! You interpreted it that way because you wanted to.  AM does not mean it that way.  Ask first.

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#62 of 121 Old 09-27-2012, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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NO! NO! NO! You interpreted it that way because you wanted to.  AM does not mean it that way.  Ask first.


Like I said, I was only clarifying a point.  No need to ask anyone's permission to do so.  :)


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#63 of 121 Old 09-27-2012, 08:12 PM
 
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That being said, I think that MDC has not been able to cater to almost half of their community in regards to vaccination topics because so many of us DO choose to vax (selectively, delayed, or thoughtfully on schedule) and tire easily of defending our decisions from the 10 die-hard anti-vax posters who will argue with anything that gets posted in the forum. ..

As someone who has been active on the vax forums for a long time, I see ebbs and flows.  

 

Sometimes the pro-vax voice is more dominant or present, sometimes the non-vaxxers.  

 

It takes two to tango and all that.


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#64 of 121 Old 09-27-2012, 08:16 PM
 
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I have zero problems with non-vaxers. In fact, we delayed until two and just now decided to get on schedule. My problem is just the fact that there is no real point in me asking any questions or discussing anything with anyone in the selective/delayed forum because 90% of the time what people get is a bunch of responses about how they shouldnt be vaxxing anyway. I want people to be able to express their opinion, but it's not really worth my time to post about DD's vaccinations because I already know what all the responses are going to be. 

 

I haven't really seen people saying that no one should vax - maybe sporadically, but I know that I've never said that someone shouldn't be vaxing.  But I have seen new members posting about how to handle certain aspects of circumcision and getting their asses handed to them, basically telling them that they are horrible, unfit mothers for even thinking about mutilating their helpless babies.

 

The hypocrisy is staggering.  


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#65 of 121 Old 09-27-2012, 08:19 PM
 
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As someone who has been active on the vax forums for a long time, I see ebbs and flows.  

 

Sometimes the pro-vax voice is more dominant or present, sometimes the non-vaxxers.  

 

It takes two to tango and all that.

 

Especially when some of the more outspoken pro-vax voices have gotten banned for blatant disregard for the user agreement.  Well, at least they have their own non-MDC board.


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#66 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 02:17 AM
 
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Both voices should be heard on this subject.  If you're on the fence either way the information you may find in some of the discussions could help you make up your mind or lead you to other information that will do so.  I think it would be absolutely horrible to only have one side represented.  And I like the MDC stance on being informed. 

 

I also think it's distracting to finger point over which "side" is the problem causer.  I mean seriously who doesn't like a spirited discussion or arguement.  Yes sometimes they get ridiculous and heated up, but the cause people to think and educate themselves even more. 

 

HOW IS THAT BAD?

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#67 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Both voices should be heard on this subject.  If you're on the fence either way the information you may find in some of the discussions could help you make up your mind or lead you to other information that will do so.  I think it would be absolutely horrible to only have one side represented.  And I like the MDC stance on being informed. 

I also think it's distracting to finger point over which "side" is the problem causer.  I mean seriously who doesn't like a spirited discussion or arguement.  Yes sometimes they get ridiculous and heated up, but the cause people to think and educate themselves even more. 

HOW IS THAT BAD?

It isn't. Spirited discussion isn't even up for discussion here.

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#68 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 07:15 AM
 
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I haven't read all the posts but the way I see it, vaccinations and formula might have some benefits in some specific situations. I've seen posts on the breastfeeding forums of moms who can't breastfeed, or have to supplement and they've got good advice re: what formula to use. I sometimes wander in Vaccinations forums and read posts from moms who choose to partially vaccinate, or delay vaccinations, so discussions on benefits and risks of vax are necessary and informative. I have read posts from moms who don't vax because they say they breastfeed, they don't travel and their dk don't go to daycare, so under opposite circumstances I suppose they would see some benefit in vaxing?

 

But there is absolute NO benefit in spanking or INFANT circumcision. None. It is violence against children.

 

Circumcision is cultural. Western "developed" societies don't have rampant diseases because they don't circ, even though AAP changed their opinion on circ.

 

Should MDC have a forum on female circumcision? I've heard there are benefits of that. You know, just to help us make an informed choice....


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#69 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 07:47 AM
 
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MDC is a is a safe haven in the social networking world filled with proud posts about violence against baby boys and baby cutting. 
 


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#70 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 08:12 AM
 
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There is not an entire area dedicated to it but I've seen it come up in these forums:

Adoptive and Foster Parenting

NICU and Preemie Parenting

 

For the record, as an adoptive mom who used formula, I appreciated the bit of support I found here for it.

 

Yes, but for a mom who has not adopted/fostered or doesnt have a preemie, it might feel odd to go to those forums (although i know we'd welcome her on the Adoptive Parents forum.)

 

I have no problem with there being a "delayed/selective vax" forum here, or for those who vax to post in a general vax forum (i dont usually go to vax boards so im not quite sure what mothering currently offers)....my post was written because of several recent posts such as this one:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1361124/vaccinations-forum-which-of-the-following-do-you-feel-would-be-best

 

which seems to suggest that mothering is considering a SUPPORT forum designed solely for moms who are vaccinating "on schedule" (i assume by on schedule they mean the current mainstream medical schedule most moms follow)...personally i have a hard time seeing how an informed parent would really want to follow THAT schedule. Delayed/selective makes sense to me, even though my children are mostly unvaxed (my adopted kids had some before i adopted them) but someone promoting/supporting/touting the benefits of the current recommended schedule doesnt really seem to fit here at MDC. I mean, the *exact same arguments* posted in THIS thread about not circing (that the so called benefits really only affect adult men, so even those benefits dont benefit the infant at the time he's circ'd) would apply to Hep B right (dont they give it to all newborns so that when those newborns are old enough to actually engage in risky behavior, they will have immunity?) I dont really have a dog in this fight as i truly dont care what vax decisions other people make as long as my legal right to make decisions for MY children remains intact (and it would be nice if the doctor didnt try to bully us into vaxing) but i can see how it seems a little outside of what mothering promotes to have a *support forum specifically for mothers vaccinating on schedule* as THAT support can be found everywhere and anywhere else. I dont know if such a forum will actually be created but from the recent polls by mothering it seems like they are at least considering it.


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#71 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 09:09 AM
 
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I think it's a valid question, creating a support forum for those vaccinating on schedule. To answer your questions about Hep B vaccine, I'm quoting from Dr. Sears' book:

 

"Of course, newborns with hep B-positive moms benefit greatly from the hep B antibody injections as well as from the vaccine to prevent transmission of the virus. All family members living with a hep B-positive person benefit from the vaccine.

...

One child in our practice stepped on a needle at a playground. He hadn't been vaccinated for hep B, and you can bet those parents were very scared.

...

The following areas have a much higher rate of hep B (about 12% of their population): Alaska (Native populations), Pacific Islands, China, Southeast Asia, eastern Europe, Central Asia, most of the Middle East, Africa and the northern part of South America."

 

So if you travel with a baby there might be benefits in getting the vaccine.

 

There are no benefits in infant circumcision. (Besides Junior looking like daddy, of course.)
 

But it looks like those wanting a vax-support forum are in minority anyways. I agree with you, my vote was also for posting in the main Vaccinations Discussion and Debate forum with all members without a need for a support subforum.


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#72 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 09:23 AM
 
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"Of course, newborns with hep B-positive moms benefit greatly from the hep B antibody injections as well as from the vaccine to prevent transmission of the virus. All family members living with a hep B-positive person benefit from the vaccine.

 

The following areas have a much higher rate of hep B (about 12% of their population): Alaska (Native populations), Pacific Islands, China, Southeast Asia, eastern Europe, Central Asia, most of the Middle East, Africa and the northern part of South America."

 

So if you travel with a baby there might be benefits in getting the vaccine.

 

.

None of the above are valid arguments for all newborns receiving Hep B.  Arguing all infants should receive something irregardless or close to irregardless of circumstances is not pro-informed choice.  


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#73 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 09:40 AM
 
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Question:  what happens when a poster posts pro-circumcision info on the circ board (even just a list of pro-circ medical reasons such as circed babies may have less of a chance of UTI's?)  I assume posters jump on it, but is the post removed?


There is a battle of two wolves inside us.  One is good and the other is evil.  The wolf that wins is the one you feed.

 

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#74 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 09:58 AM
 
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Question:  what happens when a poster posts pro-circumcision info on the circ board (even just a list of pro-circ medical reasons such as circed babies may have less of a chance of UTI's?)  I assume posters jump on it, but is the post removed?


both - it gets debunked for the medical myth it is (all the excuses are) and then it usually gets removed


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#75 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 10:30 AM
 
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None of the above are valid arguments for all newborns receiving Hep B.  Arguing all infants should receive something irregardless or close to irregardless of circumstances is not pro-informed choice.  


No one is arguing that ALL newborns should receive Hep B vaccine. What I'm saying is that Hep B vaccine can benefit some families in specific situations, and that's why a vaccinating on schedule forum might be informative.


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#76 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 12:06 PM
 
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Do you think a "formula support" board would be warranted in this case?  Just curious. 
It might make some sense if there were constant arguments about it with locked threads and hurt feelings.
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#77 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 01:19 PM
 
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It isn't. Spirited discussion isn't even up for discussion here.



Maybe you haven't noticed the vast amount of information shared here. I can't see how sharing information could be so wrong. Especially since MDC's stance is to be informed. And it's been stated over and over and over and over.
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#78 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 01:54 PM
 
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I haven't really seen people saying that no one should vax - maybe sporadically, but I know that I've never said that someone shouldn't be vaxing.  But I have seen new members posting about how to handle certain aspects of circumcision and getting their asses handed to them, basically telling them that they are horrible, unfit mothers for even thinking about mutilating their helpless babies.

 

The hypocrisy is staggering.  

Some people post a lot of "vaccines are poison, they are destroying society, they are destroying our health, the world will be a better place when it's recognized how horrible vaccines are and nobody gets them anymore", etc. etc. I don't think there's much of a difference between that and "no one should vax". Anyway. 

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Maybe you haven't noticed the vast amount of information shared here. I can't see how sharing information could be so wrong. Especially since MDC's stance is to be informed. And it's been stated over and over and over and over.

 

I dont think thats what she meant. I think (she can correct me if im wrong) she is saying SHE isnt saying the pros and cons of vaxes shouldnt be shared/debated/discussed, but what she IS questioning (in this thread) is whether vaccinating should be positively SUPPORTED at mothering, as a policy.

 

But i could be wrong LOL.


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#80 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 02:01 PM
 
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Some people post a lot of "vaccines are poison, they are destroying society, they are destroying our health, the world will be a better place when it's recognized how horrible vaccines are and nobody gets them anymore", etc. etc. I don't think there's much of a difference between that and "no one should vax". Anyway. 

 

Is that worse than telling a new mother that she is a horrible person for circumcising her son and that he is doomed to a life of misery and sexual dysfunction because she failed to do the proper research?  Because that seems to be a-ok around here.

 

And really, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 posters ever saying what you are talking about.  And those instances I can think of were (with one recent, notable exception) done with respect and not targeted at a specific person by belittling them and insulting them, as I have seen time and time again with regards to circumcision.


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#81 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 02:07 PM
 
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Is that worse than telling a new mother that she is a horrible person for circumcising her son and that he is doomed to a life of misery and sexual dysfunction because she failed to do the proper research?  Because that seems to be a-ok around here.

 

And really, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 posters ever saying what you are talking about.  And those instances I can think of were (with one recent, notable exception) done with respect and not targeted at a specific person by belittling them and insulting them, as I have seen time and time again with regards to circumcision.

I'm certainly not in favor of targeted belittling at anyone. Be it an individual or a group of people. I don't spend any appreciable amount of time on the circ forum but I am not in any way in favor of this behavior you're describing. 

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No one is arguing that ALL newborns should receive Hep B vaccine. What I'm saying is that Hep B vaccine can benefit some families in specific situations, and that's why a vaccinating on schedule forum might be informative.

I agree Hep b can benefit some families. I would consider this part of sel/delayed.

 

To me a "vaccinating on schedule" forum is different as I do not think you can make a case for conforming to a schedule while also being pro-informed choice.  

 

It could be a semantics issue - and it may come down to how you define pro-vax.

 

I have no issues with a pro-vax forum existing.  I do think the mods would need to keep an eye on it to make sure it still sticks to the mandate of informed parental choice - if they want to keep an eye on the non-vax forum to make sure it also sticks to a mandate of informed parental choice - fine.

 

The whole thing might cut down on the bickering, which would be good.

 

Lastly, I do not mind pro-circ stuff being posted on MDC Bolt.gifI don't think there is enough interest to warrant a forum, but if someone wants to discuss a study on how circ might cut down on UTI's, I do not see why that cannot be explored here.  I don't think anyone should urge anyone to circ (greensad.gif) but (in general) I do not think people should tell anyone to vax or not vax.  Oh, and before anyone starts shooting big flame tipped arrows at me, I am anti-circ and my son is not circumcised.  


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#83 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 02:37 PM
 
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Is that worse than telling a new mother that she is a horrible person for circumcising her son and that he is doomed to a life of misery and sexual dysfunction because she failed to do the proper research?  Because that seems to be a-ok around here.

And really, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 posters ever saying what you are talking about.  And those instances I can think of were (with one recent, notable exception) done with respect and not targeted at a specific person by belittling them and insulting them, as I have seen time and time again with regards to circumcision.


Actually, here at Mothering I have been told I "ruined" my kid's immune system for even select vaxing.

And that I shorted my kids by not breastfeeding past two years of age.

And that allowing my children to eat sweets was dooming them to obesity and diabetes.

All mothers judge. MDC mothers are no exception and we are quite passionate and well researched about some of our topics.
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#84 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I dont think thats what she meant. I think (she can correct me if im wrong) she is saying SHE isnt saying the pros and cons of vaxes shouldnt be shared/debated/discussed, but what she IS questioning (in this thread) is whether vaccinating should be positively SUPPORTED at mothering, as a policy.

 

But i could be wrong LOL.


Yep, thanks.  :)


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#85 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 07:05 PM
 
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Actually, here at Mothering I have been told I "ruined" my kid's immune system for even select vaxing.
And that I shorted my kids by not breastfeeding past two years of age.
And that allowing my children to eat sweets was dooming them to obesity and diabetes.
All mothers judge. MDC mothers are no exception and we are quite passionate and well researched about some of our topics.

 

So it's ok to be cruel and hurtful as long as it's well-informed?  Good to know.


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#86 of 121 Old 09-28-2012, 10:56 PM
 
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Yep, thanks.  smile.gif


There is ONE thread here that supports vaccines. Thats the Thoughtfully vaccinating thread. I don't see how MDC has been overrun by vaccinating mamas.
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#87 of 121 Old 09-29-2012, 03:28 AM
 
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Is that worse than telling a new mother that she is a horrible person for circumcising her son and that he is doomed to a life of misery and sexual dysfunction because she failed to do the proper research?  Because that seems to be a-ok around here.

 

And really, I've seen maybe 2 or 3 posters ever saying what you are talking about.  And those instances I can think of were (with one recent, notable exception) done with respect and not targeted at a specific person by belittling them and insulting them, as I have seen time and time again with regards to circumcision.


I don't think it's the best approach to tell a mother she is a horrible person, be that for circ / not circ, vaxing / not vaxing etc. Posts like this have been removed from the Case against circumcision as well. There are moms who circed and now oppose it they are a great contribution to the forum. Like moms who used to spank or CIO who regret their past decisions and are welcomed and hugged in the Gentle discipline and Nighttime parenting forums.

 

But there is no place for moms who say: I vax on schedule and consider it the best choice for my family and don't regret my decision. Vaxes are not considered all bad by many members of MDC; the proof is that those vaxing selectively or on a different schedule are welcomed here. So are those having a cesarian, there is a forum for that too. There is no excuse for circumcision besides cultural conditioning. And the kid's future sex life IS impaired if he has an incomplete organ. The forum is called "The case AGAINST circumcision".


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#88 of 121 Old 09-29-2012, 07:45 AM
 
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Except Mothering's position regarding vaccines is that it supports informed choice, the same cannot be said for the other things you list.

 

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Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post

Since Mothering's official position on vaccines is that it supports informed choice I believe that there is absolutely a place here for vaccinators just as there is a place for non-vaxers.
 

I'm still reading through this thread, but I finally have a place to say this.  The last time MDC highlighted the Case Against Circumcision article a few weeks ago (on the "Home" page) the line (misquoted because I can't find the actual post, just the article) "so that parents can make an informed decision."  And I thought, hmmmmm..... didn't we just go round and round about this on the vaccinations forums?  

 

I am not suggesting that MDC host pro-circ discussions, I just was really ticked at the semantics.  I'll go read the rest of this thread now.


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#89 of 121 Old 09-29-2012, 12:05 PM
 
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I have a child who is deaf. We chose to have her put under anesthesia, have a hole drilled in her head, and an electrical component placed inside her. We did this to allow her the opportunity to hear. We had to make the decision as her parents because if it is not done in early childhood, she will likely never benefit from it. There are people who believe we are monsters (been called a Nazi, been told that I am committing genocide) because we chose an elective surgery that compromised her bodily integrity. Thing is, we couldn't wait and allow her to choose when she grows up, because not acting now renders the decision moot.

 

To me, I see a strong parallel between our situation and vaccines. There are plenty of parents who do not choose to implant their kids, because they believe that the benefits do not outweigh the possible cons. And that is great! And the same with vaccines. But, if I do my research and I believe that I want to utilize vaccines to guard my child from childhood illnesses, I need to have them vaccinated in childhood. It is not a decesion that can wait until adulthood.

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#90 of 121 Old 09-29-2012, 12:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairejour View Post

To me, I see a strong parallel between our situation and vaccines.

see to me the two arent even close to each other. 

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Unassisted birthing, atheist, poly, bi WOHM to 4 wonderful, smart homeschooling kids Wes (14) Seth (7) Pandora Moonlilly (2) and Nevermore Stargazer (11/2012)  Married to awesome SAH DH.

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