is there a SAHM forum? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 09:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pigpen
see the previous 5 pages, lots of reasons for a separate forum. I will take your word for it that the majority of people are SAHP's. That doesn't mean a separate forum is not needed.
Most of us breastfeed, but we still have our own forum.

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#122 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 09:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stafl
What purpose would a separate SAH forum serve? I don't get it. Maybe someone here can explain it to me.
Yeah, try reading the thread.
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#123 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 09:55 PM
 
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Ditto to the above - I believe there are issues unique to being a SAHP, many of which people took the time and effort to explain and lay out in the previous five pages. I don't think there's anger at MDC for failing to provide a forum per se, but when a growing contingent of members is thoughtfully and respectfully requesting discussion or acknowledgement of this as a request and is basically ignored, people get frustrated. (esp. since a moderator, heck, the HEAD moderator, is quick to come in and admonish us to essentially watch our tone/content in the ongoing thread in Parenting Issues. I found it interesting that a conservative chat thread is allowed and encouraged in activism, and anyone expressing a dissenting opinion there is treated as a troll. )

For some reason, it's OK to be a SAHP here, as long as you don't really talk about it. For example, women who left careers by choice to stay home and parent and want to discuss this with other similarly situated women (or men) are hard-pressed to find a "safe" space to do so. I've seen many a thread where women (or men) who explain their reasons for such a decision are attacked for being "judgmental" of WOHMs, self-righteous or worse. I do understand that there is NO place to be critical of others' life choices, but it's not OK to be proud of yours either here if you're a SAHP. I've seen quite a double standard in effect.

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#124 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 09:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stafl
What purpose would a separate SAH forum serve? I don't get it. Maybe someone here can explain it to me.
ditto - if you read the last five pages, many points have already been raised...
in short for me- It took me a long time to find any SAHM thread that was ongoing until I saw this one, every other place I searched(which took awhile) the threads were already like 10 + pages, and mostly people talking back and forth about previous pages, and with a toddler I just don't have the time to read the previous 10 pgs, do all this research just to find a place to discuss issues specific to SAHPs, again- we've already brought up a lot of issues in this thread already. It is confusiing and timeconsuming to have to sift through the many topics, some of which aren't really ongoing anymore. Why should we dissect everything so much? I mean, everything I'd like to talk about just isn't that easy to label and assign to the specific topics.... I'd like to be able to have a consistent spot to check in for a few minutes everyday (which is all I get)... I don't see why there is such contention for a specific forum or subforum for issues particular to the SAHP experience.... I JUST DON"T GET IT!! I like to visit the cosleeping one when I'd like to talk about that, and activism, when I'd like that.... etc... but no where do I find one for some issues that we've raised here in this thread...

maybe we are just not in the right place if this seems so strange to some? afterall, we aren't asking for much!

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#125 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 09:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
Most of us breastfeed, but we still have our own forum.

Annette
EXCELLENT POINT!

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#126 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 10:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by musingmama
ditto - if you read the last five pages, many points have already been raised...
in short for me- It took me a long time to find any SAHM thread that was ongoing until I saw this one, every other place I searched(which took awhile) the threads were already like 10 + pages, and mostly people talking back and forth about previous pages, and with a toddler I just don't have the time to read the previous 10 pgs, do all this research just to find a place to discuss issues specific to SAHPs, again- we've already brought up a lot of issues in this thread already. It is confusiing and timeconsuming to have to sift through the many topics, some of which aren't really ongoing anymore. Why should we dissect everything so much? I mean, everything I'd like to talk about just isn't that easy to label and assign to the specific topics.... I'd like to be able to have a consistent spot to check in for a few minutes everyday (which is all I get)... I don't see why there is such contention for a specific forum or subforum for issues particular to the SAHP experience.... I JUST DON"T GET IT!! I like to visit the cosleeping one when I'd like to talk about that, and activism, when I'd like that.... etc... but no where do I find one for some issues that we've raised here in this thread...

maybe we are just not in the right place if this seems so strange to some? afterall, we aren't asking for much!
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#127 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 10:32 PM
 
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I am a WAHM, I would not be offended by what SAHMs want. I see no reason not to give them a forum or sub forum. The politics here are....interesting, to say the least. In a commune, aren't things decided by the community as a whole, not "the government". Maybe run a poll in TAO asking who supports a SAHP forum? Majority rules?
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#128 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 10:35 PM
 
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Well, I did read the whole thread, and other ones that have come up from time to time, too, believe it or not. I really just don't get it. I honestly can't think of one thread pertaining to being a SAHM that couldn't be posted in one of any number of other forums already here.

Breastfeeding is a totally different issue. There are unique issues with breastfeeding. Yes, again I'll say it, I read the entire thread (twice now, since you all assumed I hadn't read it yet), and I still can't think of anything I would post in a SAHM forum that I couldn't post somewhere else here at mdc (and probably get more answers, too). I asked for an explanation, and all you can say to me is read the thread! Well, I read it, and I still don't understand. Can anyone explain, or not? The closest to an answer to my questions is in the form of potential questions you'd post in a SAHP forum, which I just totally disagree with. Why can't you post parenting questions in parenting forums, marriage type questions in parents as partners, breastfeeding questions in breastfeeding? SAHM's have the entire board! Why do we need a "safe" place? All of MDC is our playground!

I didn't make the decision to have working moms or any of the other forums, but it makes sense to send them to the back bedroom to play, we have the rest of the house! I can totally understand why a mainstream parenting board would need a SAHP forum, but we aren't like them at all. MDC is *different* - isn't that why you are here at MDC in the first place? I love it here because my parenting choices are respected here. I love it here because of all the parenting boards online, this is the one that accepts me for who I am and doesn't question every decision I've made when it comes to what's best for my family.
I can see I shouldn't have bothered to reply to this thread. Maybe that's why you feel nobody is listening. Nobody is replying because you won't listen to anyone who disagrees with your point of view on this matter anyway, so what's the point in even trying? Maybe someone can find that poll I mentioned earlier, or start a new one. SAHMs are in the vast majority here, but only a dozen or so members have been participating in this thread. hmmmm.....
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#129 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 10:52 PM
 
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Whether you believe it or not, there ARE questions that are specific to SAHMs. Some examples have been given in here. I'll restate and add to them.

Why did you choose to SAH?
If you transitioned from working to SAH, how did that impact your self-image? How well did you manage that transition?
How long do you plan to SAH? What kind of career will you be going back to?
If you're planning to go back to work, how are you keeping your skills current as you SAH?
If you're not planning to go back to work, was that a decision you came to before or after your child(ren)'s birth(s)? Why do you feel that is the right decision for your family?
How do you manage financially on one income? Why is it worth it to you to sacrifice whatever you have to sacrifice in order to SAH?
What luxuries did you give up to SAH?
How do you get *personal* time as a SAHP? Does your DP help with childcare when s/he isn't working?
How do you get interaction with other adults as a SAHP? How do you do with the isolation?

I could continue, but I won't. These are obviously questions that could be asked to all parents, not just SAHPs, but the answers are dependent upon one's working status. The same kind of questions, asked in a WAHM or WOHM forum, would have a very different intent, and elicit very different answers, than they would elicit in a SAHP forum.

And ultimately, Stacy, if you don't feel there's a need for a SAHP forum, you wouldn't have to visit it. There are several other forums here that may or may not be strictly necessary, and there are several other forums here that could be considered offensive to some. If I'm offended by a certain forum, I don't visit it. If I don't feel a certain forum has anything to offer me, I don't visit it. Just because some don't feel a SAHP forum would be necessary, it should be denied to all those who are asking for and would value it? Does that really make sense to you?

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#130 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 10:59 PM
 
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These are obviously questions that could be asked to all parents, not just SAHPs, but the answers are dependent upon one's working status. The same kind of questions, asked in a WAHM or WOHM forum, would have a very different intent, and elicit very different answers, than they would elicit in a SAHP forum.
This says it so well. I think the comments redirecting you to the five pages came because the specific reasons, what would distinguish a SAHP forum were thoughtfully laid out in a rather detailed manner by many posters. I would be happy to do a cut and paste post to recap, but I think that would be redundant.

Stacy, I do understand that tone is often easy to misinterpret on a message board, but your last post did come across as pretty condescending and dismissive (almost sarcastic)...I don't want to read an intent into it that wasn't there....but I was a bit taken back by it. I think the posts in this thread have been pretty consistently respectful (albeit with some frustration starting to tinge things by the last few pages) and I would ask that the same respect/consideration be returned...fair enough?

Mama to DS (8) and DD (7) Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement.

 

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#131 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 11:01 PM
 
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Thank you AahRee, very well put. And Stacy, really if you want to take a hard stance about simply adding a subforum, only one forum is truly needed. We could just have "Mothering", and everyone can post there about any topic. Single parents, gays/lesbians, war and politics could all get jumbled together b/c according to your reasoning, they all fit under the forum of "Mothering". That's what the majority of people here are! Or.....we could simply add a SAHP subforum and be done with this already!

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#132 of 232 Old 11-14-2004, 11:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommyofone
I would be happy to do a cut and paste post to recap, but I think that would be redundant.
I had actually started to do this but there was just so much! I got to about page 2 and realized I was putting way to much effort into this and it's falling on deaf ears.

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#133 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 12:07 AM
 
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mmace,
Never heard of Prosperity, but one of my best friend's went to Waynesburg College. I live in Irwin, PA (used to be exit 7 on the PA turnpike, now it's exit 67). Have you lived in wpa all your life? I grew up here and only ever lived away during college and a nine month stint in Florida.

Stacy,

Quote:
you won't listen to anyone who disagrees with your point of view on this matter anyway, so what's the point in even trying?
This is exactly how WE feel. It's a traditional mexican standoff I suppose. You say but you don't need it, and are unwilling to listen to the reasons we do, and we say we need it and don't want to be told it's not important enough to warrant a *very* *minor* change. (How hard is it to create a subforum, anyway? I'm sure any one of us would be happy to help serve as a moderator...)

As far as MDC being different and not the same as mainstream boards where SAHM are in the minority, no moderator seemed to have anything to say about my comparison to LLL's New Beginnings. They aren't exactly mainstream, and I am going to make a guess that the majority of LLL members are SAHM as well. Still, they have discussion articles in every issue, two of which are: Making it Work for WOHM's and Staying Home Instead for SAHM's. It is handled very diplomatically, and doesn't seem to cause divisiness amongst LLLI. Couldn't we just try it and see what happens??? If it becomes a problem then we can address it. I just don't see how it's nearly as a potentially angering type of forum as, say, the case against circumsicion. I understand you've had major problems with that forum, not saying it's not needed, because I totally think it is. All I'm illustrating is that I don't think we're asking for something unreasonably controversial...

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#134 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 12:37 AM
 
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Truly, if moderating is the issue, I'm sure any of us (myself included - I'd love to!) would be happy to step up and do that. Is it the idea of acknowledging that SAHMs exist here that is considered offensive, or is it truly that the powers that be fear SAHPs will post something offensive to WOHPs if we have our own forum? If the whole board is our forum, as some have argued, aren't we as likely to be offensive in the other forums as we are to be in a SAHP forum? I don't understand why having a SAHP forum would cause offensive things to be posted, unless the very fact of our being SAHPs is offensive. Does Mothering just not want any SAHPs here? Or, is this a case of *don't ask, don't tell* - SAHPs can be here as long as they don't point themselves out as being SAHPs? I truly don't understand what is so offensive about giving SAHPs the opportunity to learn from one another's experiences, the same as any other *group* of similar-minded parents on this board. :

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#135 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 12:40 AM
 
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As a WAHM there are certainly things that cause greater offence than a SAHM forum for heaven sakes. There are several forums that should be removed if we fear offence.
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#136 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 12:53 AM
 
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I just joined today and I too was hoping there would be a forum for the SAHM/D.

Also, I think it is disingenuous if people really do think parents who stay at home are wealthy. It's certainly not the case for friends I know who stay home (or me). It's more a choice of planning, saving, investing and not spending money on newer cars, big houses in great neighborhoods, and myriad unnecessary consumer goods. It's doing without a lot of things, but the tradeoff is the luxury of time with your kids.

Not that there aren't moments when I wish I were doing anything else in the world besides dealing with a cranky teething overtired seven month old...
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#137 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 12:55 AM
 
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I'm a SAHM and I think the idea is really silly. It's just my opinion, though

As Stafl said, anything we may have an issue with can easily fit into an existing forum. I read this board A LOT and I very rarely see any threads run into problems simply because someone is discussing staying at home. I have seen a few forums where SAHMs were basically saying that most women can and should stay home and they couldn't imagine ever working.... and of course it got a bit ugly, it was a horrible attitude to have.

I post here a lot and I have never, ever - not one time - needed to post a topic so exclusive to stay-at-home moms that I couldn't find a proper forum for it.

I just don't get it.
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#138 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 01:05 AM
 
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What I don't get...people coming here to say "I don't get it". You've read through the thread, you don't agree. Fine. It certainly doesn't change the fact that for the last oh, 6 or 7 pages, there are others saying (very thoughtfully) that we'd like one! Here's another thing I don't get, WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?

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#139 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 02:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pigpen
What I don't get...people coming here to say "I don't get it". You've read through the thread, you don't agree. Fine. It certainly doesn't change the fact that for the last oh, 6 or 7 pages, there are others saying (very thoughtfully) that we'd like one! Here's another thing I don't get, WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?
Exactly. I may not understand the reasoning behind several of the forums here, but I don't have to. The mamas who post in those forums feel they're necessary, and I'm happy those forums are there for those who need them. Some may not understand why a SAHP is necessary or desired, but you know what? You (general you) don't have to understand it. That's one of the neat things about this board. There are so many different people with different perspectives and interests, and we can support one another, even when we disagree with or don't completely understand one another.

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#140 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 02:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AahRee
Exactly. I may not understand the reasoning behind several of the forums here, but I don't have to. The mamas who post in those forums feel they're necessary, and I'm happy those forums are there for those who need them. Some may not understand why a SAHP is necessary or desired, but you know what? You (general you) don't have to understand it. That's one of the neat things about this board. There are so many different people with different perspectives and interests, and we can support one another, even when we disagree with or don't completely understand one another.

well said! I don't go into the forums I am not interested in and say "You don't need this forum, why not post somewhere else?" really, what is the big deal?

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#141 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 03:26 AM
 
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Since I last made my request for a SAHM forum here at MDC I have tried to take a step back and try to understand why the powers that be do not want want one here. I can only assume that there must be a really compelling reason for them to deny it after so much heartfelt requests for one, but I would hope that they would keep their minds and ears open and see there is a need for support that is obviously not being met here at mothering.com. They have the opportunity to provide that support--it a much different way than other boards are doing it by virtue of the fact that this is MDC, and we are a *different* kind of SAHM than the garden variety type.

I found this wonderful article by Peggy O'mara where she talks about the issues that SAHM's face:
Women found, just as men had before them, that work isn't everything. They began to question the pursuit of materialism and started to give themselves permission to stay home again and to make creative work arrangements. The irregularities of daycare and nannies raised new questions. While the numbers of working moms continued to rise well into the eighties and early nineties, by the late nineties and the new century, the numbers had begun to level off and even decline.

By the new century, mothers were less likely to be defensive about their choices and more likely to recognize the low social status of mothers as the source of their common oppression. Improving the social status of mothers is what many of the organizations listed here want to do. We desperately need to recognize the value of mothers, and no one should ever have to apologize again for being "just a mom."


I also was given so much hope and strength when she spoke about utilizing the power of women and the groups that can help support us in our endeavors:

Groups like the Motherhood Project, Mothers' Support Network, and MOCHA are asking questions about the social fabric of society. What kind of societal values, organizations, and institutions help to support children, mothers, families? What is the proper relationship of commercialism and materialism to children and family life? These increasing efforts to proudly raise the flag of motherhood for social, economic, and political efforts bode well for the voices of women. It is the voice of the feminine that we need today.

In an ancient Hindu story, just as the world is about to be destroyed, the gods remember a legend that says that when the world is about to be defeated, it is only a woman who can save it. They summon Durga, and she defeats powerful enemies with the help of the ferocious goddess who leaps from her forehead at the last crucial minute. This legend demonstrates feminine power and reminds us that even at the last moment, we have resources we hardly imagined. These organizations are such resources. They are the stirrings of the renaissance. The murmuring of our collective voices has begun. Let yours be heard. As Maggie Kuhn said, "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." These groups will help keep yours steady.


Just as Peggy is encouraging us to call on these mothering groups to help strengthen us, I call on MDC to support the need for a SAHM forum for the unique mothers here who also need a place to use their voice.

You can read more of Peggy's article here:
http://www.watchoutforchildren.org/h...e_mothers.html

Thanks for reading,
Lisa
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#142 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 04:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LisainCalifornia
By the new century, mothers were less likely to be defensive about their choices and more likely to recognize the low social status of mothers as the source of their common oppression. Improving the social status of mothers is what many of the organizations listed here want to do. We desperately need to recognize the value of mothers, and no one should ever have to apologize again for being "just a mom." [/I]
Lisa, thanks for that link! Peggy O. is a gifted writer, I always enjoy her work.

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#143 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 10:41 AM
 
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And here's another thing that doesn't make sense to me: the argument that we have the whole board. Couldn't that be said about everyone who posts here, WOHM included? Couldn't you use that same logic to say that working moms could post their issues under other forums and not need their own? I honestly still think it's offensive to say their issues are unique enough to warrant their own forum but ours are not. How so? If there were no working mom forum, I'm sure they could squeeze a square peg into a round hole and post threads elsewhere, but there may be certain topics that simply fit better in their own forum. The same is true of us. All we are asking for is equal treatment here. Who cares who is in the majority or minority? How does that even enter into the equation?

I mean, really, this is a virtual community. In this community, yes, it may be true that SAHM's are in the majority. But when people flock to this community it is because they have issues to discuss that affect them *IRL,* and IRL SAHM's are the *minority* and we are made to feel our choice is not valid or legitimate. I constantly hear people saying how they are glad I have the "luxury" of staying at home, as if I'm some kind of pampered pooch. They don't realize that all the SAHM's I know have made *huge* financial sacrafices and work very hard. I, for instance, gave up half our family's income when I resigned from my teaching position. They don't seem to see that so many SAHM's are truly struggling financially. We come up short every month, we have lots of debt, we make lots of sacrafices. What makes this situation difficult is that we never get any support in the real world. All we ever hear is that we made the choice to forego a paying career so we have no right to complain. It's so demeaning that we can't even find a safe haven here at MDC.

I mean, even on mainstream boards, I'm sure there are different things you can say on a SAHM forum than there would be here. Here we should be able to talk about, for example, the importance of the breastfeeding relationship in our decision to SAH. At mainstream boards, I'm sure they'd be like, huh, just give 'em a bottle, no big deal. Just because other boards offer a place for SAHM's to talk doesn't mean we have anything in common with them other than SAH. If there were a SAHM subforum here, we could talk about SAH in relation to AP. THAT'S the kind of support we need. THAT'S the kind of support we are denied IRL and elsewhere online. THAT'S why it's a legitimate need.

Lastly, if you are a SAHM and you don't have a need for a subforum, great, more power to you. I've been breastfeeding now for over 2 1/2 years and I rarely have a need to visit the extended breastfeeding forum, but does that mean it shouldn't exist? Of course not. I realize that I am fortunate to have wonderful support IRL, so I rarely need to come to MDC for extended bfing support. But I understand that not all extended nursing moms are in my situation. Some have no support, and worse, some are criticized and scrutinized for continuing to nurse their toddlers and preschoolers. They need support, and it's great that MDC provides them with a place to talk. Many of us SAHM's have the same sort of need. Wonderful for you if you don't but many of us do. Don't begrudge us a need just because you personally don't have one.

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#144 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 10:56 AM
 
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I've always thought of MDC as an area where everyone comes together, but there are specific forums for specific needs. In the general areas, we are all women and mothers. Then there are areas for the "categorization" of what are needs are, a place where we can commune with others like us. Since the board is so broad with women with different life curcumstances, it's nice to have an area where there are women like us, but SAHP don't have that. If we can't specify threads for SAHP's only because it's exclusionary, we are in essence being excluded because we crave others who SAH but are not allowed to seek them out except in a cluttered FYT thread, which is hard to keep up with and just isn't the same as a forum.

Ok, I hope I got that out the way I wanted. I know we're probably just beating a dead horse but maybe eventually once of us can get across what we're trying to say.
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#145 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 11:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stafl
I am a SAHM. I see no reason for a special forum just for us. We have every forum here already! SAHP's are the majority, our issues can be placed in whatever respective forum

that is one point some of us had..that the issues get BURIED. (alot of us have posted examples here) why not have a SAHM forum where they won't be? also why should we have to search a million threads/forums when nobody else has to? : also we are being censored in the parenting thread alsready! so how are all the forum's a free for us SAHM's to use as well as a safe place available to us to post to for honest advice when we can't post freely in the parenting forums? Why would the WOHM and WAHM,singles, Dads, etc even care if there was a SAHM forum? (hence the dividing factor that keeps being brought up) I just don't buy that at all.

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#146 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 01:16 PM
 
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I constantly hear people saying how they are glad I have the "luxury" of staying at home, as if I'm some kind of pampered pooch. They don't realize that all the SAHM's I know have made *huge* financial sacrafices and work very hard. I, for instance, gave up half our family's income when I resigned from my teaching position. They don't seem to see that so many SAHM's are truly struggling financially. We come up short every month, we have lots of debt, we make lots of sacrafices. What makes this situation difficult is that we never get any support in the real world. All we ever hear is that we made the choice to forego a paying career so we have no right to complain. It's so demeaning that we can't even find a safe haven here at MDC.
Well said!
I hear that "luxury" comment all too often....drives me crazy :
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#147 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 01:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shenjall
Well said!
I hear that "luxury" comment all too often....drives me crazy :
Very well said!!!!!! It's something I have a real gripe about as well
: Too bad it's not an issue we should have a forum to discuss it in.

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#148 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 03:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mum2sarah

I constantly hear people saying how they are glad I have the "luxury" of staying at home, as if I'm some kind of pampered pooch. They don't realize that all the SAHM's I know have made *huge* financial sacrafices and work very hard. I, for instance, gave up half our family's income when I resigned from my teaching position. They don't seem to see that so many SAHM's are truly struggling financially. We come up short every month, we have lots of debt, we make lots of sacrafices. What makes this situation difficult is that we never get any support in the real world. All we ever hear is that we made the choice to forego a paying career so we have no right to complain. It's so demeaning that we can't even find a safe haven here at MDC.


exactly the boat I am in, too- thats why I thought MDC would be a good place to discuss some of these issues, at least to have some support, when its so hard to find anywhere else. I don't understand why others cannot respect this!

there are many forums that i do not need, SO I DO NOT GO TO THEM!
seems obvious
but seems we are wasting our breath.... I am new to this- anyone have a solution so that we may get on with talking about what we'd really like to, in a safe place?

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#149 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 03:55 PM
 
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I have yet to see a SAHP oriented thread having a peaceful discussion without someone getting irked about what's said. I would never consider going to the WAHM or WOHM subforum and say "hey, you're invalidating me b/c you saying being an employed mom is a good thing". Yet, a SAHP starts a thread asking for SAHP opinions and it begins the war again. THAT'S WHY WE NEED A SUBFORUM FOR SAHP'S. Is anyone actuall threatened by this? If so, why? If not, why not add the subforum??

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#150 of 232 Old 11-15-2004, 04:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by candiland
I'm a SAHM and I think the idea is really silly. It's just my opinion, though
This whole thing really is silly, I agree!!

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