will S.A and Grief be off limits to ads? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 83 Old 10-01-2006, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher View Post
That's not to say that it is not possible that such ads would appear. But if they did we would certainly act quickly to remove them once we became aware of them. Google states that ads we list to remove will be pulled within two hours.

hawkfeather, what I am trying to do is consider what the implications are of what is being said and how that applies to everything on the forums. I don't find the "ads make money" comparasion a justification for applying what is suggested here to ads but not to other aspects of potential insensitivity for members that members themselves place and certainly have no reason to do so other than personal wish. MDC needs the revenue to cover costs. Let's stop turning that into an evil aim. We're not talking about lining anyone's pockets but rather keeping MDC open and running, free of charge.
I Am sorry but I do not really understand. No one has implied that members should not be held accountable for their actions and function in a respectful manner at all.. I just think it is cutting straws- when someone says your actions will hurt me and there is a rush to explain why that person MUST be hurt anyways It just doesn't add up to me.

By All means if members are being harmed by signatures and banner ads- I think something should be done and that should be addressed, I never meant to imply otherwise- I just do not see the relation in having one thig cause potential pain and another.

There are all these suggested solutions but the most obvious one would be to not have Google ads in three forums of many.
The revenue needed to run and maintain this site- will that really be impacted by *not* having the ads in three forums?
To me there is no evil in the cause and affect basics of 'needing' money to run this site. But From what I am reading the safety of the members are coming secondary, and I doubt anyone wants that.

From what you are saying- there most likely will be inapropriate ads- hopefully few- but they will mosy likely be there- and even than take two hours to be removed?

There will be kinks and bumps undoubtidly there is with any shift- I am just wondering if it is worth it if even one mother here is caused greater pain while seeking support.

Again I really appreciate you coming and chatting about this. I know some members feel like our voices wont be heard and it is in vain to try-

These ads are dynamically generated removing them from certain areas is not hard at all, I would happily volunteer my time to remove the codes-
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#62 of 83 Old 10-01-2006, 11:58 PM
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We have said we will do all we can to monitor and filter ads. We have invited community help to do that too.

I've put forth a possible alternative for members who feel they cannot tolerate ads they see in the above mentioned forums and are willing to limit themselves to those specific forums for an ad free view. That is a more appropriate solution as it will be member specific, by request, and will protect that member from any accidental access to other parts of MDC that carry ads that could be of similar issue for them.

And if we do offer that option, no, I don't see it an issue to make such membergroup placements at a member's request, so no worries there.

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#63 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I truely wish there was a way mothers could be safe and not have to be segregated. A mother in pain, any person in pain should not have to be isolated in order to feel safe.

I think it is wonderful suggestions are being made. But honeslty I feel like when posting in certain areas because of the tone, the subject matter the energy involved it is dangerous to allow potential triggers- and i do have faith they would be as limited as possible!.. but still a potential risk.

But that does not mean mommas would want no access to other forums.

Perhaps you could place a poll i nceratin areas?.. I suspect that people would just allow themselves a less safe support environment and continue having equal public access.
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#64 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 01:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher View Post

hawkfeather, what I am trying to do is consider what the implications are of what is being said and how that applies to everything on the forums. I don't find the "ads make money" comparison a justification for applying what is suggested here to ads but not to other aspects of potential insensitivity for members that members themselves place and certainly have no reason to do so other than personal wish. MDC needs the revenue to cover costs. Let's stop turning that into an evil aim. We're not talking about lining anyone's pockets but rather keeping MDC open and running, free of charge.

The whole matter of triggers is one that presents itself everytime someone posts their story. Any story could be a trigger for someone. Is it not more appropriately a matter of the individual being selective about what they read rather than a matter of us regulating the words members use to post their story? Even the titles of threads can present triggers for some. And yes, we do ask members to be sensitive about that in SA, and certainly we would remove something that we feel is simply too much to host, but just read through some of the posts and you can see the overwhelming number of threads in titles alone that are potential triggers. So I am not saying this hurt is okay because other things hurt. I'm saying let's be realistic about the whole internet experience.
I understand where you are coming from and do not oppose google ads 100%, I just don't feel they belong in the grief and abuse forums for the reasons below.

The way signatures effect members and the way an ad does are a bit different.

A signature is tiny, fairly unobtrusive, and requires more active reading.

The google ads are much harder to avoid. A banner or pop up ad is likely to be much bigger, possibly flashing, full of color and very hard to miss.
Not only are they so hard to avoid, they add insult to injury because of the way they are crafted. The grief and abuse forums should be a place where people can feel safe. Yet when someone who is emotionally vulnerable comes to share his or her thoughts, the google ad will take what is most personal and traumatic to that member by gleaning through key words in a post and then creating a "personalized" but highly impersonal ad based on those comments. It is just highly inappropriate.

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
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#65 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 02:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher View Post
We have said we will do all we can to monitor and filter ads. We have invited community help to do that too.

I've put forth a possible alternative for members who feel they cannot tolerate ads they see in the above mentioned forums and are willing to limit themselves to those specific forums for an ad free view. That is a more appropriate solution as it will be member specific, by request, and will protect that member from any accidental access to other parts of MDC that carry ads that could be of similar issue for them.

And if we do offer that option, no, I don't see it an issue to make such membergroup placements at a member's request, so no worries there.
Ah, I think I understand what you were trying to say now. And... well it makes me feel punished for having had a loss.

I can have no access to other forums such as Mindful Home Management or Spirituality because I want to be able to express my loss and gain support from other members who have been through similar situations??

That just doesn't make sense to me... to in essence limit us to the sad and grieving forums ALL the time. We want them for support, and understanding... I don't think ANY parent here who frequents those forums ONLY want to go to those forums when they log in. Other forums help take the mind off the saddness and negative feelings.

GREAT MOM to dd (5) and )ds( [sept 26 2006]
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#66 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 02:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Signatures are our persnoal expressions, they are form us memebrs of this site. Google ads are not.

But It has come to my direct attention that my concerns are considered "fantasy" by some of the staff here, I can not set myself up to be hurt like this. I thank you Cynthia for hearing me (us) out either way!!!

It is simple to leave the ads out of certain forums, it is being asked out right that the staff here do so.
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#67 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 02:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hawkfeather View Post
It has come to my attention that my concerns are considered "fantasy" by some of the staff here, I can not set myself up to be hurt like this.

It is simple to leave the ads out of certain forums, it is being asked out right that the staff here do so.


I've been lurking in this thread but haven't contributed my thoughts since I don't need to use the abuse/loss support threads. I have to agree that it would be nice to see those places as safe havens for mama's in need of them. Where these mama's can focus on the forum rather than be distracted and disturbed by ads attempting to sell them things. It would be a charitable act to do so but not one it seems will come to fruit.

Hawkfeather. Your intentions are so good.
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#68 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 02:23 AM
 
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Hawkfeather. Your intentions are so good.
I so agree.
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#69 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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That is very sweet thank you!

I am wondering if we could maybe hear point blank why there is such opposition to not having the ads in these areas?

Obviously some staff feel that I am trying to paint MDC as some capitalistic site- but that as never my intention what so ever.

I have asked Cynthia to remove me from the site- after exchanging emails with Peggy O'Mara and having words like "ridiculous" and "fantasies" used in relation to these concerns I just can not respect the goal here.

Thanks again to Cynthia and all the mommas!!
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#70 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 02:36 AM
 
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That is very sweet thank you!

I am wondering if we could maybe hear point blank why there is such opposition to not having the ads in these areas?

Obviously some staff feel that I am trying to paint MDC as some capitalistic site- but that as never my intention what so ever.

I have asked Cynthia to remove me from the site- after exchanging emails with Peggy O'Mara and having words like "ridiculous" and "fantasies" used in relation to these concerns I just can not respect the goal here.

Thanks again to Cynthia and all the mommas!!


They used those words in regards to your CONCERN over this matter??

I knew straight off reading your posts that you have no way indicated that MDC is trying to capitalize from any of it!!

GREAT MOM to dd (5) and )ds( [sept 26 2006]
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#71 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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well perhaps i wasn't careful enough in my emails to Peggy?.. I tried.

and I shared a link to this thread. But yes those were the words.
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#72 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 02:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hawkfeather View Post
I am wondering if we could maybe hear point blank why there is such opposition to not having the ads in these areas?
I'm guessing they want to place the ads so why not everywhere? I'm guessing they think if they don't in one (or three) places why would it stop there or other members will want ads to not be here or there.

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I have asked Cynthia to remove me from the site- after exchanging emails with Peggy O'Mara and having words like "ridiculous" and "fantasies" used in relation to these concerns I just can not respect the goal here.
This is quite shocking and even distressing to hear. I hope you don't leave. Afterall you can't make change in something if you aren't around to do it. Stay and spread the word....
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#73 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 03:23 AM
 
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Well, I emailed a thread from PABL to myself, and ended up with urn and cremation ads. It's neither ridiculous nor a fantasy that that would hurt a mother who just had a loss.
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#74 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 03:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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i think the ridiculous fantasy was to be heart broken about this matter.. or to falsely think that MDC wants money.

I already asked to be removed.. I am not even sure MDC does that to be honest.. but As far as I see the decsion has been made and the option being offered is to be isolated from the rest of the board.. until you can *handle* the ads in the support forums.

I saw Cynthia really trying here.. but The opposition alone and the laguage directed at me abtou this all was just to similar to everything else in life I have tried to avoid as a momma- as a woman.
The choice to leave feels sad but rigth to me!!!!
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#75 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 03:40 AM
 
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I dont want to be isolated!!!

I dont want to feel punished!!

I feel punished ENOUGH that my son was taken from me!!!

I really am not down with the isolation idea until "I get used to it" in regards to ads that may pop up like cremation, urns, and caskets!

For cripes sake...:

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#76 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 03:59 AM
 
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hopefully this thread will result in some changes... which I hope will be taking out the google ads for the mentioned forums....

mother to E-(8).... A-(6) .... & N-(5)
Vivian Claire born 3-11-10.... ...still an , extendedmomma :
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#77 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 04:08 AM
 
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I've been thinking about this for a while.... And while it isn't something Mothering has to do, it's something I'd assume Mothering would want to do. It's the considerate thing. If I met a mother who was grieving over the loss of a child, I would want to do everything in my power to make her life as simple and as joyful (if that's possible) as it could be. I would be careful with the topics I brought up, the way I worded things, etc. And I assume any mother would do the same.

I assume a site celebrating mothers and named mothering.com would also do the same.

I certainly understand trying to make ends meet - running a home-based business has taught me the importance of that - but there are, in my opinion, higher priorities, and comforting those who desperately need comfort ranks well above money. I would do my darnedest to find another way to make the money I needed.

It occurred to me, though, that there will likely be very few users clicking on ads in those forums, anyway. The forums simply don't lend themselves to encouraging materialism of any sort. I know that the last thing I want to do after reading about a mother's tragic loss is to click on an advertisement - for anything. When I'm looking at the diapering section or babywearing or learning at home, yes - but not a grief and loss forum. That would just feel wrong to me. (And though I'm under 500 posts, I'm assuming it would feel wrong in the surviving abuse forum, as well.) I don't think I'm alone in this. It's just human nature.

There's a trade-off, I guess. The money that Google Ads in those few forums might make (and I'm betting it will be proportionately less than the other forums) weighed against the continued image of mothering.com as a safe and nurturing place - a place that values its members and their situations.

So, while I understand it's not something that every website out there would do, I have to admit that it's something I expect from MDC. I guess I simply hold MDC to a higher standard - a standard more in line with my own. It's why I keep coming back.
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#78 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 04:49 AM
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This whole situation just upsets me. I can't believe that Mothering, is selling themselves out and having google ads. It goes against everything they believe in and I think it's foolish to believe that these things won't come up and negatively affect grieving mothers that come here for SUPPORT. YES, it will make you more money, but I'm SHOCKED that Mothering is *OK with* losing members, offending and deeply hurting grieving mothers, and even temporarily having ads that may support and encourage mothers to formula feed, purchase a crib, hell maybe even circumsize!!! But it's ok ladies, the ad will be removed within *2* hours AFTER a mod is notified. NO biggie.

I really just don't know what to say besides I can't believe they are willing to have these ads. It's like they are almost betraying themselves and everything they stand for. Which in turn, makes me feel like being betrayed. I come here for support, not to *temporarily* see formula ads, casket and urn ads, or abortion clinc ads.

If Mothering wants to protect their members they should have an option where we can turn the ads off. From the entire site. Maybe we will have to turn them off every time we come to Mothering, that way sometimes we would be too busy to turn them off and Mothering can still bank on our forgetfullness. But at least do us that much respect and make it an option. PLEASE.
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#79 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 07:49 AM
 
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Hawkfeather I'm aghast at what has been said to you. Although, at the same time, sadly not surprised... :

For everyone else: I use a plugin called "adblock" along with Firefox (if you're not using firefox yet, you should be!!). I have not seen a google ad on any forum, website or otherwise in months. I just told Adblock never to display them.
http://adblock.mozdev.org/

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This whole situation just upsets me. I can't believe that Mothering, is selling themselves out and having google ads. It goes against everything they believe in and I think it's foolish to believe that these things won't come up and negatively affect grieving mothers that come here for SUPPORT. YES, it will make you more money, but I'm SHOCKED that Mothering is *OK with* losing members, offending and deeply hurting grieving mothers, and even temporarily having ads that may support and encourage mothers to formula feed, purchase a crib, hell maybe even circumsize!!! But it's ok ladies, the ad will be removed within *2* hours AFTER a mod is notified. NO biggie.

I really just don't know what to say besides I can't believe they are willing to have these ads. It's like they are almost betraying themselves and everything they stand for. Which in turn, makes me feel like being betrayed. I come here for support, not to *temporarily* see formula ads, casket and urn ads, or abortion clinc ads.

If Mothering wants to protect their members they should have an option where we can turn the ads off. From the entire site. Maybe we will have to turn them off every time we come to Mothering, that way sometimes we would be too busy to turn them off and Mothering can still bank on our forgetfullness. But at least do us that much respect and make it an option. PLEASE.
and disposable diapers. It's like sending the whole NFL out the window.
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#81 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 10:28 AM
 
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Hawkfeather I'm aghast at what has been said to you. Although, at the same time, sadly not surprised... :

For everyone else: I use a plugin called "adblock" along with Firefox (if you're not using firefox yet, you should be!!). I have not seen a google ad on any forum, website or otherwise in months. I just told Adblock never to display them.
http://adblock.mozdev.org/
Do you know if it works with regular Netscape? I'd upgrade, but everytime I do I lose all of my favorites. I really hate that about Netscape. But I love everything else so I stick with it.

As far as the google ads, I don't really care that much since I just ignore them. But I think it's sad that people are leaving over the issue. I agree with the concern about the ads in sensitive forums. I presume that some sort of contract has been signed and that's why it can't be changed at this point. And if google ads don't make much money anyway, I'm not sure what the point.

There are boards where people make regular donations to keep the board ad-free. They just use paypal. I've wondered if MDC could just try this. And it's typically the longer term, active members who donate.
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#82 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 12:15 PM
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Acctually FF/Mozilla imports your favorites from your default browser when you make it your default. It's good that way
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#83 of 83 Old 10-02-2006, 12:59 PM
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I am going to reply to the recent posts and then close this discussion as the turn has been to some rather inappropriate statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkfeather View Post
I truely wish there was a way mothers could be safe and not have to be segregated. A mother in pain, any person in pain should not have to be isolated in order to feel safe.
The ads will be in every forum and many here are prediciting things about ads that will pop up at the mention of a word. If that is true and if a member is indeed extremely sensitive to trigger words - because the ads will be words, not images - then it would be the most safe thing for her to opt for that membership. Not that all should or even need to. It is an option for a member to decide for herself and MDC appreciating such sensitivity and allowing her participation in the forums she needs at the time until she can work through her trigger sensitivities.

Quote:
But that does not mean mommas would want no access to other forums.
If someone cannot tolerate a trigger in a google ad in some forums then it logically would be the same issue in all other forums which would have google ads.


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Originally Posted by ericswifey27 View Post
I understand where you are coming from and do not oppose google ads 100%, I just don't feel they belong in the grief and abuse forums for the reasons below.

The way signatures effect members and the way an ad does are a bit different.

A signature is tiny, fairly unobtrusive, and requires more active reading.

The google ads are much harder to avoid. A banner or pop up ad is likely to be much bigger, possibly flashing, full of color and very hard to miss.
Not only are they so hard to avoid, they add insult to injury because of the way they are crafted. The grief and abuse forums should be a place where people can feel safe. Yet when someone who is emotionally vulnerable comes to share his or her thoughts, the google ad will take what is most personal and traumatic to that member by gleaning through key words in a post and then creating a "personalized" but highly impersonal ad based on those comments. It is just highly inappropriate.
Well, we are talking about a very general issue here and different people are affected by things in different ways. Certainly you aren't saying that a signature statement could not be a trigger? If we can agree that indeed it could be then we do have that issue as a boardwide one and I don't see insisting on sensitivity in one matter but not others that present similar concerns. I am not calling for signatures to contain no potential triggers. I am explaining how the entire issue of triggers is just there in the internet and asking us to remove google from a few forums due to potential triggers really acomplishes nothing because trigger words are all over discussion forums, in thread titles, post content, and signatures. It is an internet reality.


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Ah, I think I understand what you were trying to say now. And... well it makes me feel punished for having had a loss.

I can have no access to other forums such as Mindful Home Management or Spirituality because I want to be able to express my loss and gain support from other members who have been through similar situations??

That just doesn't make sense to me... to in essence limit us to the sad and grieving forums ALL the time. We want them for support, and understanding... I don't think ANY parent here who frequents those forums ONLY want to go to those forums when they log in. Other forums help take the mind off the saddness and negative feelings.
If you feel you can tolerate the potential triggers that the ads might possibly present then you need not take the option of limited forum ad-free access.

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Signatures are our persnoal expressions, they are form us memebrs of this site. Google ads are not.
So personal expressions that are potentially severe triggers for our members here are okay? That reasoning does not make sense to me.

Quote:
But It has come to my direct attention that my concerns are considered "fantasy" by some of the staff here, I can not set myself up to be hurt like this. I thank you Cynthia for hearing me (us) out either way!!!
And here I take exception with your presentation of this issue. What was said to you was in response to what you presented of your thinking and that of others that Mothering has 'gone corporate'. The response was that such an idea is a fantasy, with fantasy meaning "a supposition based on no solid foundation." The rest of the letter explained a general view of the financial situation and was not at all about the specific forums and members therein. So presenting what you were told in this manner is truly inappropriate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkfeather View Post

I am wondering if we could maybe hear point blank why there is such opposition to not having the ads in these areas?

Obviously some staff feel that I am trying to paint MDC as some capitalistic site- but that as never my intention what so ever.
But that is what implied in what you wrote in your letter and in the petition you are circulating. And what has been expressed by many here although we have tried very clearly to explain the situation and reasoning behind the decision to try Google ads. That too is what was said in the reply to you - that we have been against it for a long while due to content concerns but that we have decided to try it, and that we will monitor the ads and filter those inappropriate. If we find that we can't control them we will remove them and seek out other means to meet expenses for the site.[/quote]

Quote:
I have asked Cynthia to remove me from the site- after exchanging emails with Peggy O'Mara and having words like "ridiculous" and "fantasies" used in relation to these concerns I just can not respect the goal here.
Done.
I was copied on the letter sent to you and ridiculous was not a term used in that letter nor was anything discussed directly about this particular matter. For you to imply here that any such terms were used to describe the idea that these forums should be ad free out of resect for the sensitivity of members is a misrepresentation of what was said. Peggy addressed the implication that was made about Mothering being 'corporate' and about the decision to try Google ads and the issue of advertising in general.

Edited to clarify: If a subsequent letter was sent that did contain the word 'ridiculous' I cannot comment on that because I did not receive it personally. Regardless, it is still inappropriate to post about single words expressed in an entire letter and present them out of context here to provide for others to regard as they may, assume negativity, and allow such to stand without clarification. It is also inappropriate to share copies of such emails with others without permisssion of the author.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by super kitty View Post
I'm guessing they want to place the ads so why not everywhere? I'm guessing they think if they don't in one (or three) places why would it stop there or other members will want ads to not be here or there.
That would be a reasonable expectation wouldn't it? And it would not be fair of us - placing it in the realm of the requirement to respect anything anyone says offends or hurts them - to agree to some wants and not others. So we will be acros the board with the ads, and offer options to have an ad free view for those who wish to pay for that feature or accept a specific forums membership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
Well, I emailed a thread from PABL to myself, and ended up with urn and cremation ads. It's neither ridiculous nor a fantasy that that would hurt a mother who just had a loss.
I've monitored the ads in these forums for four days now and have seen nothing like that nor anything that I would assume to be disturbing. So rather than acting on prediction we will monitor, place, and filter if indeed we do have such ads occur.

[quote=hawkfeather;6172958]i think the ridiculous fantasy was to be heart broken about this matter.. or to falsely think that MDC wants money.


Quote:
I really just don't know what to say besides I can't believe they are willing to have these ads. It's like they are almost betraying themselves and everything they stand for. Which in turn, makes me feel like being betrayed. I come here for support, not to *temporarily* see formula ads, casket and urn ads, or abortion clinc ads.
Then go no ads as a premium subscribing member. It will be an option. If there are members who cannot afford the cost of a subscription then perhaps the idea presented by some in the community to sponsor such members would be a possibility.

Quote:
If Mothering wants to protect their members they should have an option where we can turn the ads off. From the entire site. Maybe we will have to turn them off every time we come to Mothering, that way sometimes we would be too busy to turn them off and Mothering can still bank on our forgetfullness. But at least do us that much respect and make it an option. PLEASE.
It is an option but it is one you will have to pay for if you don't want ads. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. If you want free access you'll have to tolerate the ads or block them. If you don't want the ads, don't want to ignore them (which many members have said already is pretty easy to do) and you want no blocking software on your computer then you have the option of paying for a premium membership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littleteapot View Post
For everyone else: I use a plugin called "adblock" along with Firefox (if you're not using firefox yet, you should be!!). I have not seen a google ad on any forum, website or otherwise in months. I just told Adblock never to display them.
http://adblock.mozdev.org/
A good option for some.


Quote:
There are boards where people make regular donations to keep the board ad-free. They just use paypal. I've wondered if MDC could just try this. And it's typically the longer term, active members who donate.
We did try it. It seems to work for smaller forums but not so well for larger ones with more expenses. And initial commitment does not extend for the long run so it's not a reliable source of revenue that you can rest the existence of the board on.

Now that this subject has been exhausted and we have clarified intentions and plans as much as we possibly can, I am closing this. We will continue to monitor the Google ads and welcome the assistance of anyone who wishes to help us to do so once the ads are up and running. And if there is interest in the restricted ad-free membership as described, members can contact me by PM for that.

Best wishes and thank you one and all for your input and concerns.

cynthia mosher is offline  
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