Racism: An Educational Seminar/Workshop - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:22 PM
 
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For the love of decency, people, listen to yourselves! Do you really think anyone who disagrees with you is just refusing to see the light out of stubbornness? On another thread I compared it to Homeland Security logic--you're with us or against us! There's no such thing as reasonable disagreement, dialogue, anything. We're right and you're wrong so sit down and shut up.


You're entitled to that point of view if you want, although I fail to see how it's at all productive, but to ask MDC to codify your views into official policy is not reasonable.


We all agree that racism is wrong. Why can't we go from there? Why can't we focus on what we all agree is a problem, and how to fix it, instead of going for 984 rounds of "how dare you have a different opinion"?
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#122 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:25 PM
 
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And yes I think that saying that anyone who disagrees with the academic view of racism is therefore a racist is an unjust accusation. Just as it would be an unjust accusation to say that someone who disagrees with me on a parenting issue is therefore a child abuser.
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#123 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:30 PM
 
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My biggest concern has been watching the same people trying to redefine someone's experience with racism or even attempt to redefine what are commonly known to be racist actions or words because "everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt". I think that in those situations, the people who recognize the racism--however subtle it might seem to others--should be offered the benefit of the doubt. If it doesn't appear to be racist to you, maybe that's because it's not part of *your* exerience--but that doesn't change what it means to others. Sit back and listen and maybe learn instead of adding to someone else's hurt.
I could not agree with this more. This is the crux of what is needed here, imo, to make it a truly safe space.

The racism that is so pernicious and still so present is the less overt, unconcious, unintentional kind. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, isn't racist or isn't hurtful.
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#124 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:32 PM
 
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And yes I think that saying that anyone who disagrees with the academic view of racism is therefore a racist is an unjust accusation. Just as it would be an unjust accusation to say that someone who disagrees with me on a parenting issue is therefore a child abuser.
I agree.
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#125 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:33 PM
 
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We're not even talking about the academic definition of racism right now! Can you please give it a rest???

Yes, racism is wrong. Yay for seeing that. But, when you refuse to see racism as racism and continue to defend those very actions and words that hurt others, you perpetuate it. You become part of that hurt. It's not about *expressing an opinion*; it's about seeing what others see or, at the very least, accepting that they see it and are hurt--not dismissing their pain or their experience.
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#126 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:37 PM
 
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Arguing about other people's experiences is wrong. I agree that should not be tolerated. But people can disagree about the interpretation of those issues, when it's put up for public discussion, without questioning the experiences themselves. People who believe that something is racist should be given the benefit of the doubt--I would certainly never claim that they were making it up--but that should go both ways. If you're (general you) going to put your opinions out there for general community discussion, I don't think it's reasonable to fly into a fit because someone disagrees with you (general you), as long as it's done in a respectful, UA-compliant way.
MDC I believes has what less than 5% active posters of colour/mothers of children of colour etc
If general us, who as people of colour, mothers of children of colour, wives of men of colour, say that something is racist, and we are told that our interpretation of the issue is wrong, what is that saying??
People aren't flying into a fit because people disagree, anyone can disagree but if my opinion is that mein kampf is anti semetic (sp) and it's the general consenus that it is, and it's been believed to be such for 70 years, I can't figure for the life of me, why someone would tell me to give it the benefit of the doubt?!?
And there you have the problem, because you are in my view are then asking me to give it the benefit of the doubt to a racist theory, you are asking me, the person who's living this to question MY reality, yet you don't live it and you have never faced it, so you have nothing to base your questioning of my reality on, and as it stands society backs me up, hmmmmmmm
If I'm called a racist name, and told that I should give the person the benefit of the doubt, the person who's asking me to do so, is no better than the name caller to me, but that's just me

MDC is about questioning and making informed decisions yes, however how you are making it seem is that all of a sudden (well maybe it was suddenly for some members who have limited experience outside of their own race or with race issues) a couple moms on here made up these theories, these are long standing respected theories, based on facts, shown to be true up to today not by theorist but by black people living the theory day after day.
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#127 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
For the love of decency, people, listen to yourselves! Do you really think anyone who disagrees with you is just refusing to see the light out of stubbornness? On another thread I compared it to Homeland Security logic--you're with us or against us! There's no such thing as reasonable disagreement, dialogue, anything. We're right and you're wrong so sit down and shut up.


You're entitled to that point of view if you want, although I fail to see how it's at all productive, but to ask MDC to codify your views into official policy is not reasonable.


We all agree that racism is wrong. Why can't we go from there? Why can't we focus on what we all agree is a problem, and how to fix it, instead of going for 984 rounds of "how dare you have a different opinion"?
I can't see how you want me to go from here, when you are saying that you have the god given right to question if when I post my opinon on a racist topic if it's infact racist, and you would like permission to change the defination of racism :

Just call me Bush
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#128 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
You're entitled to that point of view if you want, although I fail to see how it's at all productive, but to ask MDC to codify your views into official policy is not reasonable.


We all agree that racism is wrong. Why can't we go from there? Why can't we focus on what we all agree is a problem, and how to fix it, instead of going for 984 rounds of "how dare you have a different opinion"?
Oh for pete's sake -- this might get me banned or flamed or censured from the mods but it needs to be said.

Brigianna, you are one of the chief offenders. One of the people because of whom MDC is in desparate need of the kind of fixes people are advocating for on this issue. I had you in mind when I urged the mods to make the definition of racism as prejudice+power the officially accepted one here in MDc land.

The problem is that we can't "all agree that racism is wrong" if some of us don't even acknowledge it when other people experience it.

I was a philosophy major and love to [and respect those who can] think clearly and analytically and theoretically about issues. And I recognize in you a fierce desire to hash out these issues of race is a very philosophical, theoretical, abstract way. Yet there are historical and emotional realities you continually ignore and even trample when you start to argue with folks about what racism is.

An act or comment can be racist --even if the person who does it or says it does not consciously embrace racist ideology. It is NOT an insult to the person to call out an act or comment as racist. It is simply an observation about how that act or comment impacts others -- or how it is rooted in or perpetuating racist beliefs or structures.

I am not trying to be sneaky. I will overtly say that I am advocating that MDC take a particular stance about issues of racism. Just like they take a particular stance about corporal punishment of children. It is NOT a radical stance. An uncommon one but not a radical one. Simply a just one.
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#129 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna View Post
And yes I think that saying that anyone who disagrees with the academic view of racism is therefore a racist is an unjust accusation. Just as it would be an unjust accusation to say that someone who disagrees with me on a parenting issue is therefore a child abuser.
I think what we are saying is that there is a standard defination of racism, and as educated mama's it's best to stick with the standard defination, instead of fighting and trying to make up our own, like you seem to do and your version changes anyway
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#130 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:47 PM
 
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We're not even talking about the academic definition of racism right now! Can you please give it a rest???

Yes, racism is wrong. Yay for seeing that. But, when you refuse to see racism as racism and continue to defend those very actions and words that hurt others, you perpetuate it. You become part of that hurt. It's not about *expressing an opinion*; it's about seeing what others see or, at the very least, accepting that they see it and are hurt--not dismissing their pain or their experience.
I'm not defending actions and words that hurt others. Of course it's wrong to diminish or deny someone's experience. And it's wrong to knowingly hurt someone else's feelings. If there were a proposal to amend the UA to forbid denying, minimizing, ridiculing another person's experiences and feelings, I would be all for that. But what is being proposed in this thread is banning of disagreement with the academic view of racism. That is what I'm taking issue with.
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#131 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:51 PM
 
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Oh for pete's sake -- this might get me banned or flamed or censured from the mods but it needs to be said.

Brigianna, you are one of the chief offenders. One of the people because of whom MDC is in desparate need of the kind of fixes people are advocating for on this issue. I had you in mind when I urged the mods to make the definition of racism as prejudice+power the officially accepted one here in MDc land.
well someone else had the balls to point it out
Thanks.
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#132 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:54 PM
 
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No. This is where I am tired, I am exhausted. I am sick of going in circles trying to get people to understand that when everyone on a thread, every WOC, nearly everyone with COC, identifies something as racist or an incident as racism, sorry, no--it's. not. up. for. interpretation. Casting doubt on that, trying to reframe it or redefine it, is--in and of itself--a racist approach.
Great post.

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A minority opinion is always wrong? MDC is all about questioning and being informed and not going along with the "conventional wisdom." It seems to me to be a very un-MDC attitude to say this is the way it is, because we say so, and don't you dare disagree. Which is what this thread seems to be all about. That there is only one acceptable viewpoint, and no dissenting views should be allowed. I don't think that is in line with MDC's principles at all.



(do I need to write my disclaimer again, that I'm not talking about actual racism, but legitimate differences of opinion that are being unjustly labeled as "racist"?)
It seems to me that as a rule, POC should have the final say as to whether or not something is racist. If 500 white women say something is not racist, & five women of color, or women with biracial kids, say that, yes, it IS racist, I would have to go with the women who have actually experienced racism, you know? I have never experienced it so an occurance might move past my radar. But if it were pointed out to me, I would acknowledge it, apologize, learn from it & move on a better person.

I really can't imagine what it feels like to start a thread here about a racist incident, knowing that the same persistent posters are going to come along & try to devalue the whole experience.
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#133 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:55 PM
 
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And yes I think that saying that anyone who disagrees with the academic view of racism is therefore a racist is an unjust accusation. Just as it would be an unjust accusation to say that someone who disagrees with me on a parenting issue is therefore a child abuser.
It bears repeating.

Calling out an argument, comment, or act as racist is NOT the same thing as saying someone is a child abuser. I can say that something is racist or someone said something that is racist -- without accusing them of any ill-intent at all.

There is a way [bear with me MOCs] that we are all victimized by racism. It is like a virus we are all infected with. We [white folks in the US] ALL have it. It frames the way all of us look at the world. Whether we like it or not. Whether we consciously embrace it or not.

To say that something someone said or did is racist is to say that it is rooted in, reflects or perpetuates racist beliefs. Anyone can make these mistakes.

To say that someone is racist is to say [imo] that that person consciously embraces a racist ideology in some way. I am not calling you a racist, Brigianna. I completely believe you when you say that you di not judge people on the basis of race and that you think everyone should be treated fairly. But I do think you say racist things and that some of the positions you advocate here in terms of how MDC should handle these issues are racist. They are racist because they perpetuate an imbalance of personal power between MOC [their perception and articulation of their own experience] and white women here.
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#134 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:55 PM
 
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MDC I believes has what less than 5% active posters of colour/mothers of children of colour etc
If general us, who as people of colour, mothers of children of colour, wives of men of colour, say that something is racist, and we are told that our interpretation of the issue is wrong, what is that saying??
People aren't flying into a fit because people disagree, anyone can disagree but if my opinion is that mein kampf is anti semetic (sp) and it's the general consenus that it is, and it's been believed to be such for 70 years, I can't figure for the life of me, why someone would tell me to give it the benefit of the doubt?!?
And there you have the problem, because you are in my view are then asking me to give it the benefit of the doubt to a racist theory, you are asking me, the person who's living this to question MY reality, yet you don't live it and you have never faced it, so you have nothing to base your questioning of my reality on, and as it stands society backs me up, hmmmmmmm
If I'm called a racist name, and told that I should give the person the benefit of the doubt, the person who's asking me to do so, is no better than the name caller to me, but that's just me

MDC is about questioning and making informed decisions yes, however how you are making it seem is that all of a sudden (well maybe it was suddenly for some members who have limited experience outside of their own race or with race issues) a couple moms on here made up these theories, these are long standing respected theories, based on facts, shown to be true up to today not by theorist but by black people living the theory day after day.
I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. You can make an objective argument that Mein Kampf is anti-semitic based on the text itself. You can make an objective argument that calling someone a racist name is racist by definition. But when you get into the realm of "what something really means," you can't prove that. It's open to interpretation.

I know these are long-standing theories, and I have read about them and studied them. I don't believe they are consistent with my understanding of logic. I don't agree with them. If you do agree with them, that's your prerogative. But to make a policy that no one may disagree with them--effectively to ban people from using their logic and critical thinking, requiring them to take the word of "experts"--is, I am asserting, contrary to MDC's values.
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#135 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:55 PM
 
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Oh for pete's sake -- this might get me banned or flamed or censured from the mods but it needs to be said.

Brigianna, you are one of the chief offenders. One of the people because of whom MDC is in desparate need of the kind of fixes people are advocating for on this issue. I had you in mind when I urged the mods to make the definition of racism as prejudice+power the officially accepted one here in MDc land.
well someone else had the balls to point it out
Thanks.
Damned straight.

One more thread derailed.
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#136 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:56 PM
 
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I will overtly say that I am advocating that MDC take a particular stance about issues of racism. Just like they take a particular stance about corporal punishment of children. It is NOT a radical stance. An uncommon one but not a radical one. Simply a just one.
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#137 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not defending actions and words that hurt others. Of course it's wrong to diminish or deny someone's experience. And it's wrong to knowingly hurt someone else's feelings. If there were a proposal to amend the UA to forbid denying, minimizing, ridiculing another person's experiences and feelings, I would be all for that. But what is being proposed in this thread is banning of disagreement with the academic view of racism. That is what I'm taking issue with.
Actually I started this thread, and what is being proposed is training. The only person who brought up the topic of the academic definition of racism is you.
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#138 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:03 PM
 
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Actually I started this thread, and what is being proposed is training. The only person who brought up the topic of the academic definition of racism is you.
Actually, I brought it up. It was part of the package of ideas I presented earlier in the thread. I thought it would be helpful if MDC embraced the idea that racism = prejudice+power rather than the just simple racially based prejudice.
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#139 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:04 PM
 
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I really can't imagine what it feels like to start a thread here about a racist incident, knowing that the same persistent posters are going to come along & try to devalue the whole experience.

well this is why MDC is losing so many of it's mama's of colour, they are tired and weary of this, and we are just leaving which is sad but true, the racist are winning
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#140 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:04 PM
 
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Oh for pete's sake -- this might get me banned or flamed or censured from the mods but it needs to be said.

Brigianna, you are one of the chief offenders. One of the people because of whom MDC is in desparate need of the kind of fixes people are advocating for on this issue. I had you in mind when I urged the mods to make the definition of racism as prejudice+power the officially accepted one here in MDc land.

The problem is that we can't "all agree that racism is wrong" if some of us don't even acknowledge it when other people experience it.

I was a philosophy major and love to [and respect those who can] think clearly and analytically and theoretically about issues. And I recognize in you a fierce desire to hash out these issues of race is a very philosophical, theoretical, abstract way. Yet there are historical and emotional realities you continually ignore and even trample when you start to argue with folks about what racism is.

An act or comment can be racist --even if the person who does it or says it does not consciously embrace racist ideology. It is NOT an insult to the person to call out an act or comment as racist. It is simply an observation about how that act or comment impacts others -- or how it is rooted in or perpetuating racist beliefs or structures.

I am not trying to be sneaky. I will overtly say that I am advocating that MDC take a particular stance about issues of racism. Just like they take a particular stance about corporal punishment of children. It is NOT a radical stance. An uncommon one but not a radical one. Simply a just one.
Not everyone agrees what those "structures" are. I certainly don't. And I know that I'm considered to be an offender; I could probably guess the other 3 members people are thinking of when they're talking about "some members."

I know calling a comment or act racist isn't the same as calling a person racist, but in this thread and others, those of us who disagree with the academic view are personally called racists.

Where have I denied or refused to acknowledge anyone's personal experiences with racism? If someone says they're the victim of a racist incident, I believe them. The only thing I am taking issue with is the broad generalizations and stereotypes. And conspiracy-mongering. Well, I don't really have a problem with conspiracy-mongering, as long as we have the right to question it.
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#141 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:07 PM
 
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I think what we are saying is that there is a standard defination of racism, and as educated mama's it's best to stick with the standard defination, instead of fighting and trying to make up our own, like you seem to do and your version changes anyway
I'm not advocating making up a new definition. For all practical purposes I've conceded the definition. I have no interest in debating semantics. The definition is not what I'm concerned about.
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#142 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:08 PM
 
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So is conspiracy mongering the same as history and social science?
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#143 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:09 PM
 
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Actually I started this thread, and what is being proposed is training. The only person who brought up the topic of the academic definition of racism is you.
I think I said "academic view" or "academic understanding" (I don't care about definitions), and it was in response to the numerous posts advocating that disagreement with this view be banned.
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#144 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:11 PM
 
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So is conspiracy mongering the same as history and social science?
It depends on what history and what social science you're talking about.... and fwiw I don't think that all conspiracy mongering is illegitimate.
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#145 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:17 PM
 
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It seems to me that as a rule, POC should have the final say as to whether or not something is racist. If 500 white women say something is not racist, & five women of color, or women with biracial kids, say that, yes, it IS racist, I would have to go with the women who have actually experienced racism, you know? I have never experienced it so an occurance might move past my radar. But if it were pointed out to me, I would acknowledge it, apologize, learn from it & move on a better person.

I really can't imagine what it feels like to start a thread here about a racist incident, knowing that the same persistent posters are going to come along & try to devalue the whole experience.
I'm the guardian of a biracial child, and I know for a fact that their are many poc who don't agree with these concepts. This is not white vs. poc like people are making it; there are many points of view among people who are all equally committed to the anti-racist cause.
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#146 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:19 PM
 
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As a MOC I am SHOCKED that MDC would even give lipservice to banning discussions of race. :
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#147 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:23 PM
 
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I'm the guardian of a biracial child, and I know for a fact that their are many poc who don't agree with these concepts. This is not white vs. poc like people are making it; there are many points of view among people who are all equally committed to the anti-racist cause.
Which is all the more reason you should be listening and respectful.
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#148 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If you guys want to hash it out over the definition again, then go to another thread. I want to know when the seminar is going to happen. That way the next time one of these threads is derailed into and argument about what is or isn't racism, there are trained people available to deal with it.
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#149 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:34 PM
 
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Which is all the more reason you should be listening and respectful.
I am listening and respectful. Please point out any time that I have been disrespectful in this or the other threads.
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#150 of 267 Old 11-06-2006, 07:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
If you guys want to hash it out over the definition again, then go to another thread. I want to know when the seminar is going to happen. That way the next time one of these threads is derailed into and argument about what is or isn't racism, there are trained people available to deal with it.
This isn't about the definition. I don't care about that.
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