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Old 05-01-2007, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent, and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.



the part I am wondering about is "we are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of CIO, physical punishment, FORMULA FEEDING etc.. Formula feeding is what caught my eye!

My daughter IS formula fed, NOT BY CHOICE!!!!!!!!! For instance if I had a question about formula, I would not be able to voice that concern because it is wrong and in the same catagory as CIO, physical punishment, elective cesarean, circumcision, vacc's. Yes I'm a bit upset:

I WANTED to breastfeed!!!! Kailey is my first baby. She was born a month early are in the NICU, I had eclampsia. The lactation specialist said I COULD NOT breastfeed because of the b/p meds and magsulf drip. I believed her. I was able to come off of them when my daughter was 6 weeks old. I still had plenty of milk and wanted to breastfeed, my daughter was already going through numerous formula switches, throwing up, and having acid reflux. I was then told by her ped that she NEEDS to be on a hypoallergenic diet because she's showing signs of food allergy. I AGAIN believed her, FINALLY I GOT EDUCATED, met with the lactation specialist with WIC, she gave me a hospital grade pump to use, I also took fenugreek and reglan. I pumped and pumped and only got drops. After 3 months of trying to get my milk back and pumping regularly, still only drops. My daughter at 6 weeks old, when I tried to have her latch, would not, she screamed, that was the reason for the appt at 6 weeks, and that was when I was given crap information. I am very SAD!!!! I just really don't feel that formula feeding should be in the same catagory as things that are clearly abusive. I tried!!!!: :

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Old 05-03-2007, 08:06 PM
 
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The formula aspect is in regard to FF by choice or promoting FF by choice over BF and that is how it is enforced on the boards.

It is not a board wide ban of formula discussion.

Mothering Magazine adheres to the WHO code and the boards reflect that but it is understood that some do not have the luxury of that choice and such discussion is permitted.

There are FF threads in LWAB and you can find a "women who could not BF" group in FYT.

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Old 05-03-2007, 09:37 PM
 
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This caught my eye. Perhaps it could be reworded to "elective formula feeding," just as it is "elective cesarean." Just a thought.
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:54 PM
 
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I am so sorry you had this experience!

Happy wife to DH superhero.gifand mama to DS signcirc1.gif11/05 and DD energy.gif8/07.
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mackysmama View Post
This caught my eye. Perhaps it could be reworded to "elective formula feeding," just as it is "elective cesarean." Just a thought.
I completely agree.
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Old 05-03-2007, 11:03 PM
 
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I agree too. I didn't FF, but did have a CS, and I can see how I would feel kind of alienated if the word "elective" wasn't in front of that one. to the OP.
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Old 05-03-2007, 11:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mackysmama View Post
This caught my eye. Perhaps it could be reworded to "elective formula feeding," just as it is "elective cesarean." Just a thought.
Great idea!
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Old 05-04-2007, 12:15 AM
 
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The way the sentence is written it says that we can't discuss the MERITS of ff. So discussing it is fine, just not why it's better.

Or that's my take...

-Angela
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Old 05-04-2007, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks everyone. It's a really sore subject for me, , I'm actually sorry I wrote that because it was more like a vent. Can I blame it on hormones

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Old 05-04-2007, 02:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
Mothering Magazine adheres to the WHO code and the boards reflect that but it is understood that some do not have the luxury of that choice and such discussion is permitted.
I fully support the adoption and enforcement of the WHO code by the US government, but I have never understood its application to this message board. The WHO code is a guide for government, hospitals, formula manufacturers, and marketers. (Full text.) It does things like require formula labels to provide information about breastfeeding and restricts hospitals from promoting formula. It simply doesn't apply to discussions between individuals, as on this site.

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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
The formula aspect is in regard to FF by choice or promoting FF by choice over BF and that is how it is enforced on the boards.

It is not a board wide ban of formula discussion.
Either not all moderators are aware of this, or it is applied inconsistently. See this thread, for example. The closed post directly states "Please note that MDC does not host discussions on formula."

This post was closed based on "MDC's adherence to the WHO code", but again I would point out that the code applies to the distribution, marketing, and labelling of formula (and other breastmilk substitutes), not the discussion of formula between individuals.

I think that MDC's policy, as stated, is a good one (ie, restricting discussion of the merits of formula feeding). It just pains me when I see other discussions of formula feeding (by necessity) censored, especially when the justification is an incorrect application of the WHO code.
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Old 05-04-2007, 02:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna View Post
The way the sentence is written it says that we can't discuss the MERITS of ff. So discussing it is fine, just not why it's better.

Or that's my take...

-Angela
But I've still seen threads pulled where it was discussed and not in "why formula is better" type of discussion. I also had to FF and have just resolved myself that when I need support or questions regarding formula that MDC is just not the place to look for answers.
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Old 05-04-2007, 06:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Trillian View Post
I fully support the adoption and enforcement of the WHO code by the US government, but I have never understood its application to this message board. The WHO code is a guide for government, hospitals, formula manufacturers, and marketers. (Full text.) It does things like require formula labels to provide information about breastfeeding and restricts hospitals from promoting formula. It simply doesn't apply to discussions between individuals, as on this site.



Either not all moderators are aware of this, or it is applied inconsistently. See this thread, for example. The closed post directly states "Please note that MDC does not host discussions on formula."

This post was closed based on "MDC's adherence to the WHO code", but again I would point out that the code applies to the distribution, marketing, and labelling of formula (and other breastmilk substitutes), not the discussion of formula between individuals.

I think that MDC's policy, as stated, is a good one (ie, restricting discussion of the merits of formula feeding). It just pains me when I see other discussions of formula feeding (by necessity) censored, especially when the justification is an incorrect application of the WHO code.
Quote:
Article 2. Scope of the Code

The Code applies to the marketing, and practices related thereto, of the following products: breastmilk substitutes, including infant formula; other milk products, foods and beverages, including bottle-fed complementary foods, when marketed or otherwise represented to be suitable, with or without modification, for use as a partial or total replacement of breast-milk; feeding bottles and teats. It also applies to their quality and availability, and to information concerning their use.
Mothering.com is a board owned and operated by Mothering Magazine. Mothering adheres to the WHO Code in its advertising decisions.


While it may be seen as discussion between individuals, Mothering is paying for this site and its operation. If Mothering does not accept advertising for breastmilk substitutes, it would be inconsistant for it to *pay* for discussion promoting breast milk substitutes on its discussion boards.

Some of the support Mothering receives is based on their adherence to the WHO Code and there is a need for consistancy.

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Old 05-04-2007, 08:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
it would be inconsistant for it to *pay* for discussion promoting breast milk substitutes on its discussion boards.
Agree. But that isn't what the OP is referring to. She isn't asking for a place to "promote breast milk substitues." I think there does need to be a distinction made betweeen people who choose to formula feed and think that is the best option and those who believe that breast milk is best but HAD to use formula or were pressured to and regret that they didn't.
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Old 05-04-2007, 09:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mackysmama View Post
Agree. But that isn't what the OP is referring to. She isn't asking for a place to "promote breast milk substitues." I think there does need to be a distinction made betweeen people who choose to formula feed and think that is the best option and those who believe that breast milk is best but HAD to use formula or were pressured to and regret that they didn't.
I did say that such discussion was permitted and there is not removal of threads for people who cannot BF, the point when such things are removed is when advantages are being discussed.

I do understand and sympathize the OPs point but rules changes have to go through Peggy so it will be something Jacque and I will need to discuss and then present to her.

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Old 05-05-2007, 12:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by abimommy View Post


The formula aspect is in regard to FF by choice or promoting FF by choice over BF and that is how it is enforced on the boards.

It is not a board wide ban of formula discussion.

Mothering Magazine adheres to the WHO code and the boards reflect that but it is understood that some do not have the luxury of that choice and such discussion is permitted.

There are FF threads in LWAB and you can find a "women who could not BF" group in FYT.
On the contrary, several months ago I saw firsthand a thread yanked because a mom was in a dire situation similar to the OP's, repeatedly stressed she was using formula as a last resort, and posters were rallying around her trying their best to answer her formula concerns. After a few people actually tried to help her with her forumla concerns given the circumstances, the thread was "closed for further review". In NO WAY was anyone ever, ever, EVER supporting formula feeding and discussing non-existent "advantages". They were simply trying to help the poor woman who was in great need of help. The thread never made it back, nor was any kind of reason ever given. It was very disappointing and I PM'd the OP later who was in tears over the fact that this was done.
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Old 05-05-2007, 01:15 AM
 
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I have a question then about Article 1 of the WHO code;

"The aim of this Code is to contribute to the provision of safe and adequate nutrition for infants, by the protection and promotion of breastfeeding, and by ensuring the proper use of breastmilk substitutes, when these are necessary, on the basis of adequate information and through appropriate marketing and distribution"

So if this is true why would Mothering advertisors have issues with FF being discussed on here if its truly warranted? I have seen some people been accused of not really needing to use Formula or worse that anyone who does use formula as a last resort still must not really be trying hard enough.
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Old 05-05-2007, 01:38 AM
 
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Thanks everyone. It's a really sore subject for me, , I'm actually sorry I wrote that because it was more like a vent. Can I blame it on hormones
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Old 05-05-2007, 12:26 PM
 
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That's going to need so much moderation, though. I understand discussing formula in adoption or special needs or the NICU and perhaps breastfeeding problems (with strict moderation) but I've seen several threads about "not feeling like pumping anymore" or "just one formula bottle, which is best?" I don't think those should be supported AT ALL. The best thing to do is encourage a woman to keep breastfeeding and supply her with the knowledge and tools necessary to do it. I've also seen "formula's not that bad" being said here, multiple times. And posters who mention nursing alternatives told not to judge. There's where it's leaning towards "formula is just fine" and how do you stop that once it starts?

Then come the questions of who gets to decide who absolutely is formula feeding by necessity and not by choice? If a mother has not met that "criteria," can she participate in formula discussions? How many posts need to be devoted to breastfeeding help before the conversation can change to formula? I don't see any end to the need for interventions in formula discussions.
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Old 05-05-2007, 01:57 PM
 
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That's going to need so much moderation, though. I understand discussing formula in adoption or special needs or the NICU and perhaps breastfeeding problems (with strict moderation) but I've seen several threads about "not feeling like pumping anymore" or "just one formula bottle, which is best?" I don't think those should be supported AT ALL. The best thing to do is encourage a woman to keep breastfeeding and supply her with the knowledge and tools necessary to do it. I've also seen "formula's not that bad" being said here, multiple times. And posters who mention nursing alternatives told not to judge. There's where it's leaning towards "formula is just fine" and how do you stop that once it starts?

Then come the questions of who gets to decide who absolutely is formula feeding by necessity and not by choice? If a mother has not met that "criteria," can she participate in formula discussions? How many posts need to be devoted to breastfeeding help before the conversation can change to formula? I don't see any end to the need for interventions in formula discussions.
:



Well put.


-Angela
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Old 05-05-2007, 04:21 PM
 
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I dunno, I have to say, if a woman came here and posted her unplanned, unwanted c-section birth story and the theme was, "at least we're okay", would that thread have to be censored?

Even the WHO estimates that up to 10% of pregnancies may require c-sections, but let's say that number is too high and it's really 1%. And that it's not 5% of women who can't breastfeed, but 1%.

That's still one person in a hundred- and there are thousands of women who come through here, so we're talking at least 40 or 50 women who might come to these forums, or ten or so regularly, that have unfortunately, due to natural causes (we aren't perfect beings), had to use one of these interventions.

Shall these women leave the forums for ivillage or babycenter?

Fine, but Mothering should consider that in this case, they will likely go to areas where they will be advised to repeat c-section and increase formula, which is probably not the intent.

I have never once seen ANYONE here argue for elective c-section, mandatory vaccination, CIO, or formula. Emergency c-sections, formula as the last resort even after milk banks had been sought out, considering separate beds without crying, selective vaccination for at-risk kids- yes. But not what is mentioned in the rules. Seems like kind of a red herring to me, too.

I realize that the natural living / counter-culture community needs a safe place, but is a place safe where there is no questioning? No discussion? No gray areas or continuua? How natural is that?

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Old 05-05-2007, 11:52 PM
 
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Shall these women leave the forums for ivillage or babycenter?
That woman I was referring to actually did. Although she was NFL by all the other mighty standards, she was shunned in her time of need. She had nowhere else to turn BUT there. It was the saddest thing ever.

Quote:
I realize that the natural living / counter-culture community needs a safe place, but is a place safe where there is no questioning? No discussion? No gray areas or continuua? How natural is that?
Excellent food for thought. I've said it many times before on here but the point is often lost -- Life is intrinsically (and naturally) one big shade of gray.
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Old 05-05-2007, 11:56 PM
 
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Old 05-06-2007, 12:07 AM
 
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I've seen threads closed where the people had to FF for whatever reason, and they were discussing how to prepare, what works best, etc.... nothing about FF promotion. I believe there was an air of sadness to that thread because they all wanted to breast feed and could not.
And, too, the few threads that do come up like this, it seems these people inevitably have been to lactation consultants, read the literature, already tried the advice of the wonderful, knowledgable members here, and are clearly turning to FF as a last resort. They expicitly explain this, and I agree, they always convey a deep sense of sadness, regret, and often shame. It is always ackowledged that BF is superior. After throughly explaining this, they might ask a question or two about FF. These are the threads we who are concerned are referring to.

FTR, the typical "Oh I tried to BF for a week and I just wasn't making enough milk so I switched" makes me as sick as the next person. I hear that all the time from people in my community and inside I'm always very skeptical. The situations described in these threads are clearly in a different ballgame.

Ok, I better let his go because I've said my peace....that one mama leaving for another mainstream board where she could discuss her needs openly without being censored just broke my hert and left a very strong impression on me. MDC could have been a much better fit for her than....that place.
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Old 05-06-2007, 05:14 PM
 
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I have never once seen ANYONE here argue for elective c-section, mandatory vaccination, CIO, or formula.
It has absolutely happened. I am sure many will agree that is was becoming a *serious* problem in many forums dealing with those issues when that particular clarification was added.


If you have a question about a particular thread you can pm a moderator or administrator and we can discuss it.

It is difficult to discuss such threads on general terms as it is impossible to see exactly what happened on a thread that caused it to be removed.

Sometimes, a thread goes downhill and it might be removed but people don't see all the reasons behind it being removed. We don't always leave extensive notes about it, as that can seem accusatory.

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Old 05-07-2007, 05:16 AM
 
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"It is difficult to discuss such threads on general terms as it is impossible to see exactly what happened on a thread that caused it to be removed."

That's true. I guess what many of us were surprised at was that while some threads having to do with involuntary FF and questioning some of the reasoning behind not vaccinating (which is not to recommend vaccination, much less mandatory vaccination) were removed, we never do see those which are outright recommending mandatory vaccination or formula feeding. Perhaps they are removed more quickly?

I take your word for it that these threads are occuring but I do support the following amendments:

1) The formula-feeding rule be amended to something like "elective formula feeding" or better, "formula feeding as anything but a worst-case scenario last resort".

2) In terms of threads, maybe a special sticky thread on low-supply issues, located in the breastfeeding challenges board, could allow short-term discussions of formula issues for the small but real percentage of women who need it (i.e. those whose milk never comes in, those for whom sufficient milk never came in, those who must, for their own survival, take medication that could seriously harm their newborn baby, and all of whom at the same time do not have access to breastmilk without having to spend so much that they would be forced into alternative housing... the last of which, considering the cost of breast milk is unfortunately a large percentage ).

A special disclaimer could be put in that thread as well, along with links to the threads on increasing supply, getting around thrush and food sensitivities, etc.

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Old 05-07-2007, 07:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mackysmama View Post
This caught my eye. Perhaps it could be reworded to "elective formula feeding," just as it is "elective cesarean." Just a thought.

ditto!!!!!!!!!
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