Friend's baby died...attempted homebirth then transfer :( Need some encouragement - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 118 Old 08-09-2011, 01:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kanna View Post


I don't agree. First of all, not all parents are research savvy. Some people don't use the internet and finding out that kind of information with the 'net is work enough. Doing it without, when you know little about where to start and what to look for.....difficult.

 

While I'm sure there are exceptions, ime, the people you're talking about are far, far more likely to see a doctor than a midwife, for both prenatal care and attending the birth. I do think there are some people in the natural birth community who are overly inclined to "trust birth", even under really extreme circumstances. And, there are some who blame the mom's emotional/psychological state for everything that goes wrong in L&D (although mom blaming certainly isn't limited to natural birth circles - it's a favourite pastime in the medical community, too). But, by and large, the women I see choosing midwives (this may be different in Germany) are very, very likely to have done at least some research ahead of time. Obviously, not every mom-to-be does that, but many do. Personally, I've never met a woman who went with a midwife who hadn't researched pregnancy, prenatal care, potential complications, etc. to a fairly significant degree. I've met many, many, many women who saw doctors for their care and never asked a single question about anything.

 


...and it mentions how "The Midwives Model of Care is based on the fact that pregnancy and birth are normal life processes." and that "Your choices are going to be dependent on several criteria: the legal status of midwifery in your state, the kind of midwife you're looking for, and the availability of midwives in your area. Here are some suggestions" and that "The hallmark of the Midwives Model of Care is respect - for the mother and baby, for the family, for the birth process itself."

 

But finding something about the complications that can arise during birth and how different midwives are equipped to handle it and how it's a criteria that should be checked for when looking for a good midwife? As far as I could tell: zilch. Not exactly "informed consent" enabling, is it?

 

What does informed consent have to do with a general guide to the midwifery model of care, and general guidance about choosing a midwife? Informed consent is between the expectant mom and her care provider, not on a page of the type you're looking at.

 


To quote MDC policy: "Positive healthcare provider reviews are welcome. Please use careful language when responding to or soliciting a review. We do not wish to host negative remarks or comments about practitioners, practices, hospitals or healthcare centers that might cast them in a negative light and which would present liability concerns for you and for Mothering. Negative comments that are verifiable facts of public record or court ruling are acceptable."

 

This kind of policy makes it darn difficult to get a good, critical look at a midwife, will make people reluctant to post about it if they heard stuff went wrong at the midwifes parctice.....and I figure a lot of expecting moms come to MDC for advice about exactly this kind of thing.

 

It also makes it hard to get a good, critiial look at OBs. It's not a model of care specific guideline. Quite honestly, I'd talk to people behind the scenes (by PM or email) if I wanted to discuss a specific midwife or doctor. I've said some negative things about my GP and OB over the years, but I haven't named them by name here on the forums, and I don't intend to do so. If someone local is looking for specifics, I'll address that privately. The fact that MDC doesn't allow flame war instigating reviews to be publicly posted isn't a huge factor in making those choices, imo. When I was looking for someone to attend a HBA3C, I went completely underground, and talked to people I trusted. I didn't look much for online reviews, yk?

 

One more thing: YOU are from the " camp of "question everything and make my decisions from there."" Not everybody is.

Some people are a lot more trusting and if the are told by someone who was introduced to them as a "professional" that there's not reason to worry, then they will rely on that professional's opinion.

Some people are shy and have a difficult time questioning someone they perceive to be of greater authority.

 

It seems callous to me to condemn these people to risking their lives and the lives of their babies in the hands of incompent midwives, because they lack the research skills and are more trusting or shy than you to question what they're being told.

 

As I said above, ime, the kind of person you're talking about is significantly more likely to see a doctor than a midwife in the first place. I don't know what it's like in Germany, but in North America (I'm Canadian, but the syndrome seems even more pronounced in the US, as far as I can tell), the opinions of doctors are given the weight of Holy Writ to an awful lot of people.



 


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#92 of 118 Old 08-09-2011, 01:06 PM
 
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#93 of 118 Old 08-09-2011, 01:14 PM
 
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Weighing in briefly and frantically trying to keep up with this thread....I'll provide some information on public health data in the U.S. and how it pertains to "other midwife."

 

Every baby must be issued a birth certificate, and providers generally fill out the necessary information.  This information is compiled as public health data by both state health departments and federal agencies such as the Centers for Disease Control.  This is the data that Wisconsin's health department compiles and relies on.

 

Each state gets to choose what kind of form to use.  A boilerplate form was released in 1989, which you can view here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/United_States_long_form_birth_certificate.gif

 

In 2003, the federal government issued a new form and encouraged states to adopt it.  Here is an explanation of that changeover process.

http://www.marchofdimes.com/Peristats/calculations.aspx?reg=&top=&id=6

 

And here is the 2003 form: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-ACC.pdf

 

You will note that both the 1989 and 2003 forms have the category OTHER MIDWIFE.  There is no category for a CPM.  But here's the important part: The OTHER category on both forms has the words "please specify."    There is room, in other words, to specify CPM.  And apparently, nobody did, or we'd have some concrete data on CPM outcomes.  

 

ETA: I'm not sure if Wisconsin uses the 1989 or 2003 form to compile its data, but either way, we have the "Other Midwife" conundrum.


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#94 of 118 Old 08-09-2011, 10:49 PM
 
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@Xzaviers_mama

 

O.K., since you don't seem to understand why I believe you were being rude, let me try to put this another way. Let's have a look at what was being said first:

 

Paigekitten:

Seems odd for someone to dig up an old thread on the homebirth forum and start pushing pushing pushing to prove that homebirth isn't safe.

 

LittleStar:

Couldn't agree more. And if you look at her posting history, this isn't the only resurrected thread she's preaching her agenda on.

 

You:

I noticed this as well.

 

1. You agreed with Pk and LS.

 

2. LS an Pk were saying that

 

  • I had an "agenda." People that have an "agenda" are not being honest with you and they're trying to push something on you which you don't actually want. In other words, people that have an "agenda" are trying to harm you in order to advance their own goals.

 

  • I was "pushing pushing pushing" and "preaching". People that push and preach are disrespectful of others. They disregard others' rights to their own opinions and thoughts and instead try to force them to give them up and exchange them for the opinions of the one "preaching".

 

  • I deliberately dug up this old thread. If you deliberately go somewhere to "push an agenda", then that's a bit stalkerish and creepy.

 

To sum it up, preachy, pushy people with an agenda that deliberately go hunting for places where they hope they will find people that they can be preach and pushy to are, to use an euphemism "not nice" (=a*******).

 

And since you were basically agreeing that I was someone "preachy, pushy with an agenda" who deliberately came here so I could preach and push my agenda on the people here…..yes, I DO feel that you were being rude.

 

The fact that you're now saying that "Maybe" I'm "looking to feel attacked?" and basically implying that I'm being oversensitive and whiny about your accusations is not exactly helping your case.

 

I don't hesitate to call a spade a spade, and you were being rude and you still ARE being rude.


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#95 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 12:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

While I'm sure there are exceptions, ime, the people you're talking about are far, far more likely to see a doctor than a midwife, ...
What does informed consent have to do with a general guide to the midwifery model of care, and general guidance about choosing a midwife? Informed consent is between the expectant mom and her care provider, not on a page of the type you're looking at.
I went completely underground, and talked to people I trusted. I didn't look much for online reviews, yk
 


The thing that started this particular discussion was Paigekitten being of the opinion that parents are responsible for picking a competent, skilled midwife.

 

I thought that there were several factors that hampered parents ability to do so and since this was the case, it would be states' responsibility to make sure as far as possible that ALL midwives that practice are skilled and that it is made transparent for parents exactly what kind of skills a specific type of midwive posessed and what kinds of situations she's able to handle. 

 

I think this should be done because there have been several instances of negligent or at least incompetent midwives being responsible for the deaths of babies.

And while there are incompetent, negligent doctors too (see the story of Lisa1970), if a doctor messes up, you can sue his pants off. It's not possible to do that with midwives, since, amongst other things, they don't usually carry malpractice.

So I feel that if you can't sue if things go wrong, the parents should at least receive help in picking a midwive that WON'T mess up and I think that the current amount and quality of information available (and the lengths you need to go to to find it) make that next to impossible.

 

So for starters, there might not be a lot of parents that are not good at doing research, but even if they are few, they deserve to get the information they need in order to make an informed choice. They need to know that if things go south, the midwife will be able to recognize that, recognize it in a timely fashion, that she has made appropriate provisions for transfer to a hopsital where complicaitons can be dealt with and that she will be able to stabilize the situation until they arrive at the hospital. The information you currently find on the internet concerning such a situation is completely insufficient.

 

It's good that you and paigekitten have mad researching skillz....but not everybody does and it shouldn't be a requirement for parents that are looking for ways to have their kids safely.

 


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#96 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 12:25 AM
 
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#97 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 12:35 AM
 
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I think it's rude to post a link like this one: http://hurtbyhomebirth.blogspot.com/ in a forum that is meant to be supportive of homebirth.  


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#98 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xzaviers_mama View Post

I think it's rude to post a link like this one: http://hurtbyhomebirth.blogspot.com/ in a forum that is meant to be supportive of homebirth.  



First of all, you are taking this out of context.

 

As you can see here:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanna View Post


Negligence, when it happens, is a terrible thing.

 

The crux is, it's not limited to doctors. Midwives can mess up just as bad. Here are some cases where midwives attending to mothers during a homebirth were the negligent ones:

 

http://hurtbyhomebirth.blogspot.com/

 

Here one from Oregon, just a few days ago: http://special.registerguard.com/web/opinion/26642904-47/midwives-birth-oregon-direct-entry.html.csp

 

Another few, seen from the legal perspective: http://www.slate.com/id/2293389/pagenum/all/#p2

 

Just like you regret your choice to give birth at a hospital, a lot of the baby loss moms in these cases regret giving birth at home with a midwife.

 

 

the link was originally posted to illustrate that there are negligent midwives AS WELL as negligent doctors, and that kids die during homebirths as well as during hospital births.

Please take note that the original post that started this thread was ALSO about a baby dying during homebirth....and I don's see you berating the OP for that, which seems like a double standard on your part.

 

I then proceeded to explain that I DO support homebirth, with a skilled, competend midwife and a good transfer plan for if things go wrong, but that there are unskilled, un-experienced midwives out there that HAVE killed babies with their negligence and that something needs to be done about that.

 

Other posters in this thread agreed with the points I made, and I don't see you berating them either.

 

To illustrate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

It’s funny….everytime somebody here makes the factual statement that babies die in hospitals as well as at home, they get jumped on for lacking compassion.  I don’t think they do, and I don’t think you do.  Yes, agreed.  Babies die at home, babies die in hospitals. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaveTheWild View Post

 

Kanna: Also, I'm not worried about the "well-educated skilled midwives". I had wonderful midwives at the hospital that gave excellent care. It's the not-so educated, rather less skilled midwives that don't know how to handle emergencies that I'm worried about, and I believe that is a legitimate worry.

 

I actually agree with this statement.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidwifeErika View Post


I also believe that in all aspects of maternity care we should always, always, always be looking to be improving out outcomes. Regardless of birth location or attendant.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaveTheWild View Post

 

I do think that midwifery should have more quality control, because an incompetent midwife stains the entire child birthing world. 


Yes, this forum does support homebirth, but it does NOT support incompetence or negligence.

 

The cases found on http://hurtbyhomebirth.blogspot.com/ are cases that illustrate negligence and incompetence by midwives, something that, as can be seen by the comments, is criticized even by other homebirth professionals and homebirthing moms, so yes, I feel it was perfectly legitimate to post that link here.

 

Now, can we get back to the point of you being rude towards me, and (after your most recent post, the third one in a row attacking me) add the question of why you seem compelled to do that?


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#99 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 10:17 AM
 
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It seems the numbers for hospital deaths is higher than of homebirths, I'm sure everyone can read up on the statistics.

 

Watching "Business of Being Born" was really helpful and an eye-opener.

 

There's 7 billion people in this world, I think if homebirths/non-hospital births were dangerous, we wouldn't have gotten this far since hospital births was introduced in the early-mid 1900's.

 

 

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#100 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 12:14 PM
 
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Kanna I mentioned that it seemed odd because it DID seem odd to me.  Since you asserted you didn't know it was old thread and was genuinely interested in intelligent discussion I figured I'd stick around and discuss instead of go back to lurking.  That said, it does make me personally very concerned when people post threads talking about need reassurance about homebirth, in the homebirth forum, and people jump in talking about the risks of homebirths.  When I read the original post it seems to me to be a mother asking LIKE-MINDED mothers for a reminder about why she has made a choice she has already researched and chosen. When a thread title is asking specifically for encouragement, it seems rather rude to me to jump in and start a debate about the risks of homebirth, especially when one of the things the OP was specifically concerned about was how it was going to reflect on the HB community in general.  That said, since you say you don't have an agenda to push, and are here in an effort to discuss and come away with more information then, I'm sorry I doubted your intentions.

 

It seems very easy to say things along the lines of if homebirth and midwives were more regulated, there would be fewer incidences of negligence and incompetence therefore, everyone will be better off with more oversight.  What I am trying to point out is there are many many of us who DON'T WANT more government oversight in our birthing choices.  We simply don't want it.  Those individuals who do want that are going to choose a care provider that is more highly regulated, the OB's, the CNM's, the licensed midwives.  Those of us who don't WANT that, still want the ability to make our own choices regardless of what others think of the risks.  It frankly scares the crap out of me when people want to walk in and start taking away my freedoms in an effort to protect me.  Would I rather be safe, or free?  I choose free.  Others choose safe.  That doesn't mean they should take away MY freedoms by limiting the options of care providers I have.  

 

And it seems to me that you are under the impression that women who have been subjected to poor medical care by the medical establishment have great recourse for retribution. I don't see that.  I suggest you research the deaths from cytotec inductions and the general lack of regard for the families of the women who have died to get a feel for the climate here in the U.S. in regards to medical negligence in the OB community. Here's a link to the Tatia Oden French Memorial Foundation. http://www.tatia.org/id7.html.


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#101 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 12:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marsbars View Post

It seems the numbers for hospital deaths is higher than of homebirths, I'm sure everyone can read up on the statistics.

 

Watching "Business of Being Born" was really helpful and an eye-opener.

 

There's 7 billion people in this world, I think if homebirths/non-hospital births were dangerous, we wouldn't have gotten this far since hospital births was introduced in the early-mid 1900's.


1. We DID read up on the statistics (if you followed this thread) and sorry, but e.g. in Wisconsin, the death for homebirths is higher than for hospital births. If you have access to statistics indicating otherwise, please feel free to post a link.

 

2. TBOBB certainly gives insights into one side of the argument, but it also is shows a rather incomplete picture of the issue, thus skewing the issue as a whole.

 

3. Evolution doesn't require EVERYBODY to survive. It just requires ENOUGH people to survive. And if you did a little research, then you would quickly find that in the past and even today, the leading cause of maternal and neonatal death is birth.

 

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#102 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 12:41 PM
 
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The thing that started this particular discussion was Paigekitten being of the opinion that parents are responsible for picking a competent, skilled midwife.

 

I thought that there were several factors that hampered parents ability to do so and since this was the case, it would be states' responsibility to make sure as far as possible that ALL midwives that practice are skilled and that it is made transparent for parents exactly what kind of skills a specific type of midwive posessed and what kinds of situations she's able to handle. 

 

Where I live, there are licenses, regulated midwives, so I can choose one that the government and doctors approve of, if that's what I want. However, the final choice is mine, and if I want one who isn't regulated, I have that option, too. This is not an area where I want my responsibilities to be handed over to the state, thakn you very much. Their approach to regulation has hurt me badly over the course of my reproductive life. I agree that, if a midwife is licensed, that should mean she has a certain level of education and experience (or the license is meaningless), and should be held accountable if she fudges that. (Actually, I think an unlicensed midwife should be hit hard if she lies about her experience and education, too. I'd guess that, after the fact, it would be hard to prove what she did or didn't claim, though.)

 

 

I think this should be done because there have been several instances of negligent or at least incompetent midwives being responsible for the deaths of babies.

And while there are incompetent, negligent doctors too (see the story of Lisa1970), if a doctor messes up, you can sue his pants off. It's not possible to do that with midwives, since, amongst other things, they don't usually carry malpractice.

 

Malpractice insurance protects the person being sued. It doesn't enable a lawsuit. If I wanted to sue an unlicensed provider, who didn't carry insurance, I could still do it. It's just that 1) I may not receive as much (as any award is limited to what they actually own), and 2) it would hurt them a lot more than someone with insurance (whose rates go up, but isn't in danger of losing their home, car, etc. etc.). In any case, I have no desire to sue anyone's pants off, unless they do a c-section on me while they're drunk, or something equally egregious. I consider it a simple fact of life that doctors and midwives make mistakes, and those mistakes can be very serious. I don't consider that to be malpractice (no matter how "malpractice" is defined in law) - I consider that to be human.

 

So I feel that if you can't sue if things go wrong, the parents should at least receive help in picking a midwive that WON'T mess up and I think that the current amount and quality of information available (and the lengths you need to go to to find it) make that next to impossible.

 

Help from whom? I know of several midwives that I wouldn't use. I know of several other people who have had bad outcomes with midwives that I can't identify. But, if I were birthing in those people's areas, I'd definitely get in touch and ask for more information.

 

So for starters, there might not be a lot of parents that are not good at doing research, but even if they are few, they deserve to get the information they need in order to make an informed choice. They need to know that if things go south, the midwife will be able to recognize that, recognize it in a timely fashion, that she has made appropriate provisions for transfer to a hopsital where complicaitons can be dealt with and that she will be able to stabilize the situation until they arrive at the hospital. The information you currently find on the internet concerning such a situation is completely insufficient.

 

That's actually more information than I've ever had about a doctor - it's just assumed that they know all those things. In any case, there is no way to have this information, because all births are subjective, and there's no way to know how things will go south, if they do. I lost my son in a hospital (yes, after a homebirth transfer). I had continuous EFM, and was actually waiting for a c-section (not because things had gone south - the only reason I was ever given by hospital staff for needing a c-section was that I'd already had three). Nobody knew things were going south, except that I'd exceeded guidelines on how long I'd been in labour, until his heart simply stopped - no decels. Since I was in a hospital at that point, everything's fine, and the hospital staff are presumed to have done everything right, and "everything they could". If the exact same thing had happened while I was still at home, people would have been screaming for my midwife's head, and accusing her of incompetence. If all the OB's experience, and the L&D nurse's experience, and a decision to incision time of less than 10 minutes (to the best of my recollection, it may have been under 5, but I've misplaced my records and can't check), were insufficient to prevent my son's death, then what "information" from a homebirth midwife could have done so? She could have handled many other situations (I know women she's attended who have had complications, which have been handled well), but there's no way to "stabilize" a stopped heart.

 

FWIW, the hospital staff made one or two minor errors, imo. I have no idea if they'd have been able to save my son if they hadn't, but I'm not out for revenge or payback. The mistakes they made were only human.

 

It's good that you and paigekitten have mad researching skillz....but not everybody does and it shouldn't be a requirement for parents that are looking for ways to have their kids safely.

 

I never said that I have "mad researching skillz". But, any care provider, doctor or midwife, licensed or not, can have skeletons in their closet. Having a license or being regulated doesn't mean you never screw up, or that you can do everything you claim you can.

 

The bottom line is that people can set up whatever licensing or regulation they want to. I can't stop them. But, as a pregnant woman (to be clear, I'm actually not pregnant - I'm done having babies), I also have the right to choose a care provider who suits me, whether or not my pregnancy fits into the guidelines required by a regulatory board. I've never had a baby safely, except for an externally imposed definition of "safe", and that's partly because of the guidelines and regulations put in place to "protect" me. (At least one of my c-sections was done almost entirely to protect the OB from a potential lawsuit, because I was outside guidelines on length of gestation. The really sick aspect of that is that I wouldn't have sued, and that c-section did permanent physical damage to my pelvis...for which I have no legal recourse, because he was "within guidelines". The rules protected him, not me...except that I wouldn't have sued for that, either.) I like the fact that there are unlicensed, "rogue" midwives, because they maintain an element of choice that's utterly absent in the regulated system.

 



 


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanna View Post


1. We DID read up on the statistics (if you followed this thread) and sorry, but e.g. in Wisconsin, the death for homebirths is higher than for hospital births. If you have access to statistics indicating otherwise, please feel free to post a link.

 

I've never seen really good statistics on this. Since the stats so often (I'm tempted to say "always") fail to account for accidental homebirths (you know, the "OMG - the baby was born at home, but it somehow survived, and the heroic dad/sibling/neighbour/random stranger caught it - mom was there, too" headlines), or accurately record attendants, etc., I have trouble taking them seriously.

 

2. TBOBB certainly gives insights into one side of the argument, but it also is shows a rather incomplete picture of the issue, thus skewing the issue as a whole.

 

TBOBB is what skews the issue? Seriously? The issue was already skewed. I'm not sure TBOBB is entirely accurate, but being slightly weighted to the other side of an issue than pretty much everything else in the media doesn't mean that TBOBB is the source of the skew!

 

3. Evolution doesn't require EVERYBODY to survive. It just requires ENOUGH people to survive. And if you did a little research, then you would quickly find that in the past and even today, the leading cause of maternal and neonatal death is birth.

 

While I agree about evolution, I also find the "leading cause of death was/is birth" argument to be overly simplistic. As far as I can tell, we have no data on maternal deaths during childbirth on women having intervention-free births, where the women are adequately nourished, have access to clean water, etc. And, a huge percentage of the drop in deaths in childbed happened when antibiotics were discovered, which is quite separate from modern obstetrics. (Research has also led me to the conclusion that when doctors first took over birth from midwives, and moved pregnant women to hospitals, mortality went up, not down.)



 


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#104 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 12:51 PM
 
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I really don't think malpractice insurance has much to do with providing safe care. I don't think lawsuits have done much to improve our medical situation here in the US and doctors are sued left and right and up and down. If anything, I believe it destroys good care. Good doctors have left medicine due to inability to keep up with the rising costs of malpractice insurance. Hospitals have brought in policies that are not at all about evidence-based care and are all about avoiding lawsuits and liability.

 

There are doctors who practice without malpractice, but then they cannot accept certain insurances. No problem. They usually make up for it with being quite affordable. This is the same with midwifery care. I disclose in writing and in oral format to all potential clients that I have no malpractice and that I also own nothing. If they want to sue me, they could get a 1998 subaru with 200,000 miles on it. If they enter into a contract with me for care, they go in with it being quite transparent.

 

What I do see about malpractice insurance requirements.... it is a good way to shut down homebirth providers. It is a good way to drive people out of private practice. I would be curious to know what the costs of malpractice insurance in Germany are in comparison to the US for providers who are attending births. It can be absolutely insane here in the US due to people being quite "trigger happy" with lawsuits. For many doctors the cost of insurance goes up with the more experience they have because the insurance company starts to feel their time is coming for a lawsuit. That is insane. One would think the more experience one would have the better as they would be less likely to make mistakes.


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#105 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kanna View Post




1. We DID read up on the statistics (if you followed this thread) and sorry, but e.g. in Wisconsin, the death for homebirths is higher than for hospital births. If you have access to statistics indicating otherwise, please feel free to post a link.

 

 


I also posted a couple of studies earlier in the thread with statistics indicating that deaths for homebirths were equal to hospitals, but other poor outcomes were lower. 

 


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#106 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kanna View Post

 

I think that people debating stuff here are not doing it so they can one-up other people. I think people are debating, because they want to be CERTAIN that they are making good choices for themselves and their families, and you can only be sure that your choice is good, if your assumptions have been challenged and have withstood this rigorous test.

 

Concerning the tone:

 

Overall, I perceive the tone here as mostly civil (on both sides), but I'm someone who is used to straightforward, bordering on blunt communication patterns that may also include heated debate, so there might be some undertones that I don't catch. If you consider any phrase in the comments I posted as hitting the wrong notes, please let me know why and I'll go back and edit.

 



I have only read through this thread up to here, but personally, I think the problem is that there really should be no place for "debate" within a thread of this nature.  OP was asking for encouragement, not a heated debate over a tragedy that none of us know the details of.  It would seem much more appropriate to start a new thread debating c-sections and everything else instead of hijacking this thread to "debate."  I find it downright disrespectful and I am in no way a home birth advocate.  Kanna, I have noticed from several posts that you seem to love a good debate, and that is perfectly fine.  Just find a more appropriate thread to have a debate on. 

 

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#107 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:19 PM
 
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And while there are incompetent, negligent doctors too (see the story of Lisa1970), if a doctor messes up, you can sue his pants off. It's not possible to do that with midwives, since, amongst other things, they don't usually carry malpractice.

Kanna, the research would say otherwise.  http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa054479

 

The majority of the 1500 lawsuits studied did not make the legal definitions of frivolous, (debunking the great "hot coffee myth" that permeates the national tort "reform" debate).  Most cases were settle out of court.  Cases that did go to trial resulted in a loss for the plaintiff in 80% of cases. 

 

(Interestingly, the majority of suits (19%) were against obstetricians).

 

What this article doesn't mention as is that most---perhaps all--malpractice settlements include a legal "gag order" forbidding the plaintiff from ever making public mention of the case.  This means that while anti-homebirthers gleefully post dead-baby stories that get published in newspapers in order to score themselves cheap political points (not a slam on you, I just see a lot of it on the Internet), the grieving mothers who lost babies due to hospital negligence have to muffle their voices. 

 

So you see, it's not so simplistic as "suing [a doctor's] pants off."  And as StormBride said, the lack of malpractice insurance doesn't make a person immune to a lawsuit; it just devastates them even more should they be sued.

 

By the way, if MWs had their own separate malpractice program, I'd support it.  What is preposterous is expecting midwives to pay the same medical malpractice insurance as obstetricians, surgical specialist whose work includes high risk cases.  Physicians who push for the latter are trying passive-aggressively to run midwives out of business and secure their control over childbearing women. 

 


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#108 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post





I have only read through this thread up to here, but personally, I think the problem is that there really should be no place for "debate" within a thread of this nature.  OP was asking for encouragement, not a heated debate over a tragedy that none of us know the details of.  It would seem much more appropriate to start a new thread debating c-sections and everything else instead of hijacking this thread to "debate."  I find it downright disrespectful and I am in no way a home birth advocate.  Kanna, I have noticed from several posts that you seem to love a good debate, and that is perfectly fine.  Just find a more appropriate thread to have a debate on. 

 

I'm to blame too, though.  I shouldn't have responded.bag.gif  I would continue this in a different thread. 
 

 


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#109 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Paigekitten View Post




I also posted a couple of studies earlier in the thread with statistics indicating that deaths for homebirths were equal to hospitals, but other poor outcomes were lower. 

 


Kanna-- That's the reason why to me it seems like you are pushing an agenda here. You don't ever refer to the studies posted by others who have shown the outcomes of homebirth to be quite different from what you keep stating. I just read this thread and that was my first impression. Hope that helps you understand why this conversation can strike a bad note for some people.

 

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#110 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post





I have only read through this thread up to here, but personally, I think the problem is that there really should be no place for "debate" within a thread of this nature.  OP was asking for encouragement, not a heated debate over a tragedy that none of us know the details of.  It would seem much more appropriate to start a new thread debating c-sections and everything else instead of hijacking this thread to "debate."  I find it downright disrespectful and I am in no way a home birth advocate.  Kanna, I have noticed from several posts that you seem to love a good debate, and that is perfectly fine.  Just find a more appropriate thread to have a debate on. 

 


bag.gif  I certainly have been perpetuating the debate.  I totally would move to a new thread though.

 


I love Edward and we love our Libby (8/07) waterbirth.jpg and 'Nana' (05/09 )h20homebirth.gif and Eowyn (11/11) waterbirth.jpg  We are having a blast bfinfant.giffemalesling.GIFfamilybed1.gifcd.gif and homeschool.gif.

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#111 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:53 PM
 
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I just want to say that, while I agree that this isn't the proper thread for a debate, the question of supporting the OP is somewhat irrelevant at this point, as her baby was due last year, and it looks from her signature as if she had a little girl in October (although I may be reading that wrong).


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#112 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 01:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

I just want to say that, while I agree that this isn't the proper thread for a debate, the question of supporting the OP is somewhat irrelevant at this point, as her baby was due last year, and it looks from her signature as if she had a little girl in October (although I may be reading that wrong).



It doesn't change the fact that some mother lost a baby which is what this thread was supposed to be about.   I don't blame anyone for responding to Kanna or think the responses perpetuate the debate really.  To me, it seems more of a defense of the poor mother whose baby died.  Regardless, I find it really tasteless to pull up old threads to push an agenda, especially when the thread involves this sort of tragedy. 

 

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#113 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 02:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post

I just want to say that, while I agree that this isn't the proper thread for a debate, the question of supporting the OP is somewhat irrelevant at this point, as her baby was due last year, and it looks from her signature as if she had a little girl in October (although I may be reading that wrong).



coolshine.gif Cool! Thanks for sharing that bit of info (=little girl in October) and congrats to the mom!


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#114 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 02:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post





It doesn't change the fact that some mother lost a baby which is what this thread was supposed to be about.   I don't blame anyone for responding to Kanna or think the responses perpetuate the debate really.  To me, it seems more of a defense of the poor mother whose baby died.  Regardless, I find it really tasteless to pull up old threads to push an agenda, especially when the thread involves this sort of tragedy. 

 


 

*sigh*  Good thing I WASN'T pulling up old threads to push an agenda then, no?


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#115 of 118 Old 08-10-2011, 03:01 PM
 
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New thread started!!!!!

 

"The price of being the best.....is having to BE the best.

Or: On how to make Homebirth even safer"

 

(Quote at the beginning by Terry Pratchett)

 

Here's the link:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1325291/the-price-of-being-the-best-is-having-to-be-the-best-or-on-how-to-make-homebirth-even-safer-initial-quote-by-terry-pratchett#post_16599945


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#116 of 118 Old 08-12-2011, 08:20 AM
 
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1. We DID read up on the statistics (if you followed this thread) and sorry, but e.g. in Wisconsin, the death for homebirths is higher than for hospital births. If you have access to statistics indicating otherwise, please feel free to post a link.

 

2. TBOBB certainly gives insights into one side of the argument, but it also is shows a rather incomplete picture of the issue, thus skewing the issue as a whole.

 

3. Evolution doesn't require EVERYBODY to survive. It just requires ENOUGH people to survive. And if you did a little research, then you would quickly find that in the past and even today, the leading cause of maternal and neonatal death is birth.

 


 

 

1. No, I did not completely follow this thread. I prefer to keep my replies minimal and without link jumping. There are enough statistics online regarding safety for homebirths vs hospital births...

 

2. To each their own

 

3. You would also know that one of the leading causes of human death is car accidents. So I guess we should avoid all moving vehicles then.. Sorry, but if we don't need medical intervention to eat or have bowel movements in general, I don't see a need why a labouring women would also unless there were complications. As you know, very rarely a person has an impacted bowel and may need help removing it.......Have you read the stats of hospital birth deaths at ALL??? You can't avoid death, you can't avoid fate. It's the reality of it.

 

Think about how many millions of babies die in the hands of a doctor. I've personally known of some people who has lost a baby while labouring, in the hospital. So you can argue two ways.

 

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#117 of 118 Old 08-12-2011, 11:25 AM
 
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1. No, I did not completely follow this thread. I prefer to keep my replies minimal and without link jumping. There are enough statistics online regarding safety for homebirths vs hospital births...

 

2. To each their own

 

3. You would also know that one of the leading causes of human death is car accidents. So I guess we should avoid all moving vehicles then.. Sorry, but if we don't need medical intervention to eat or have bowel movements in general, I don't see a need why a labouring women would also unless there were complications. As you know, very rarely a person has an impacted bowel and may need help removing it.......Have you read the stats of hospital birth deaths at ALL??? You can't avoid death, you can't avoid fate. It's the reality of it.

 

Think about how many millions of babies die in the hands of a doctor. I've personally known of some people who has lost a baby while labouring, in the hospital. So you can argue two ways.

 



If you wish to continue this, could you please take it to the new thread? Thank you.  ^_^


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#118 of 118 Old 08-18-2011, 11:05 AM
 
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Midwives (DEMs & CPMs) DO have access to at least two different professional liability policies...

 

Prime Insurance: http://www.primeis.com/product_lines/professional_liability.html

Dean Insurance: http://www.deaninsurance.cc/malpractice.html

 

There may be others, but these are the ones that I am aware of.

 

Kim Mosny, CPM, LM

Home Birth Midwifery Service

Midlothian VA

 

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