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#1 of 128 Old 09-10-2011, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here, have a look. 

 

I am a bit outraged. What do you think? 

 

http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/2011/09/fill-in-blanks.html

 

 

 

 
 

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#2 of 128 Old 09-10-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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If you read the comments section, it's obvious the followers are of the lower intelligence spectrum.  People who make fun of others, or appear to have a useless vendetta are all LOW ASVABS! 

 

Of course most people appreciate division, division gives them power and their refusal to be nice when trying to educate their beliefs pretty much states they're inability to understand anything other than crayons and constuction paper.  I say we leave it at that and don't get bent out of shape over their personal problems.

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#3 of 128 Old 09-10-2011, 10:16 AM
 
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This woman is well-known as a rabid anti-homebirth activist.  What a pain she is.  Her writing is so phenomenally unprofessional -- I cannot imagine what she must be like to work with.  Yikes! 

 

My fave post is the one claiming that attachment parenting causes autism.  Ohhkayyy...eyesroll.gif

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#4 of 128 Old 09-10-2011, 10:19 AM
 
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sad that people have so much time on their hands. While I can understand some of what they are saying, they are just as ignorant as some of the stuff they talk about... It's too bad most of them know nothing about the science behind pregnancy/birth and havent taken the time to actually read studies to understand it all.


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#5 of 128 Old 09-10-2011, 10:35 AM
 
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It's what people do, make fun of things they do not understand.

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#6 of 128 Old 09-10-2011, 05:37 PM
 
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Ladies... you are honestly creating fodder for them. Let me explain why.

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Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

If you read the comments section, it's obvious the followers are of the lower intelligence spectrum.  People who make fun of others, or appear to have a useless vendetta are all LOW ASVABS! 

 

.


Lower intelligence spectrum? I realize this particular blogger is hated here, but many of the regular commenters are physicians, researchers, and other highly educated & intelligent folks. Its just where they let their hair down. I read it to try and stay balanced.
 

 

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Originally Posted by Magdalen1978 View Post

This woman is well-known as a rabid anti-homebirth activist.  What a pain she is.  Her writing is so phenomenally unprofessional -- I cannot imagine what she must be like to work with.  Yikes! 

 

My fave post is the one claiming that attachment parenting causes autism.  Ohhkayyy...eyesroll.gif


The post on attachment parenting causing autism is satire. Read the comment section... they wondered how many MDC readers wouldn't understand that. Guess they were right.

 

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sad that people have so much time on their hands. While I can understand some of what they are saying, they are just as ignorant as some of the stuff they talk about... It's too bad most of them know nothing about the science behind pregnancy/birth and havent taken the time to actually read studies to understand it all.


They know far more of the science than some of the posters here. I see more rampant cherry picking and misinterpretation here than on science blogs, where there are professionals that understand the methods & interpretations (as opposed to skimming abstracts) and can keep each other honest.
 

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It's what people do, make fun of things they do not understand.


They do understand. There is a sizeable contingent of those who used to be of a 'trust birth' mindset, till they encountered poorly trained practitioners and were treated terribly after their bad birth outcomes.

 

I do realize that this may get be disciplined or what have you, but open your eyes, ladies. They ain't all bad. The reason the post initially referenced is upsetting is because it is very, very true. How many completely unsuitable homebirth candidates are choosing to put their trust, and their babies' lives, into the hands of lay practitioners that have no professional accountability? How many posts start exactly like that? Sometimes, they end up with a dead baby... but that quickly gets sanitized, here at MDC. For every homebirth death that remains here, there was another removed.

 


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#7 of 128 Old 09-10-2011, 05:46 PM
 
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Jeminijad,

Why is it okay for them to use a personal situation and make fun of it? Not a meaningless one either. How does that educate? It doesn't. Never has never will. If women need to know more than by all means make a positive push to teach rather than hurt others. Why would I call them idiots? Only idiots would use a situation such as that and with cruel intent blast their beliefs.

Should some women choose a better/safer option? Yes, should they be shamed after a poor decision? NO, unless you feel it's okay to kick someone when they're down.

By all means, back those who love to hurt and laugh at other peoples pain.



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#8 of 128 Old 09-10-2011, 05:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

Jeminijad,

Why is it okay for them to use a personal situation and make fun of it? Not a meaningless one either. How does that educate? It doesn't. Never has never will. If women need to know more than by all means make a positive push to teach rather than hurt others. Why would I call them idiots? Only idiots would use a situation such as that and with cruel intent blast their beliefs.

Should some women choose a better/safer option? Yes, should they be shamed after a poor decision? NO, unless you feel it's okay to kick someone when they're down.

By all means, back those who love to hurt and laugh at other peoples pain.


 



If it isn't pointed out, no one knows.

 

The idea there (and in quite a few places) is that it is better to potentially save babies, even if feelings are hurt.

 


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#9 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 01:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Jeminijad, 

I can´t quite agree, I am a professional, and am treating the "bad outcome" babies, but I do not see this kind of posts helpful at.all. I am quite sure that you would get severe problems with our doctors society down here if you would posts things like that. 

 

I want to keep homebirth safe for moms and babies, and encourage breastfeeding, and I got flamed from LLL for being professional and *gasp* start working in my professional field after the first birthday of my child, but I still don´t think that ranting like that and making fun of other people will get you anywhere. It will just turn the people that you "want" to help or keep safe away from you, so you actually make them go to a bad provider instead of helping them to look through all the data. 

 

The problem with this post is, that it´s not only about unsafe homebirth problems, it makes fun of every human beings  considering different options about themselves at any time.

 

It´s a bit difficult for me to explain what I mean, since english is only my second language. I hope you understand me. 


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#10 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 02:05 AM
 
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This is a tough one.  I know my opinion won't be popular here, but I agree with this:
 

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Originally Posted by jeminijad View Post





If it isn't pointed out, no one knows.

 

The idea there (and in quite a few places) is that it is better to potentially save babies, even if feelings are hurt.

 

 

I have read the Skeptical OB and while at first I was shocked by some of her posts and offended by her tone, there IS a kernel of truth to them.  As jeminijad said above, there are women here who are blindly trusting in birth, their bodies and their birth "professionals,"* even when their particular situations put them and their babies at significant risk.  Every time I read a post such as that mocked on SOB--and I have seen them here several times--I cringe and I worry about that mama and her baby.  Yet, here at MDC, so often these women are encouraged to go ahead with their plans despite the risks.  And that is not okay.  While I agree that the SOB site can be mean-spirited, I firmly believe that if it spreads awareness of the risks of homebirth* (and don't flame me here, HB just isn't safe in every single situation!), and prevents even one bad outcome, then it's worth the hurt feelings.  As to the tone turning away the very people the site is meant to reach?  Well, maybe that's true... and it's a problem.      

 

* Let me reiterate that I do support HBs BUT only in appropriate situations -- a healthy, low-risk pregnancy with a well-trained professional.  The cases of loss due to midwife negligence, unpreparedness or ignorance infuriate me.

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#11 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 03:58 AM
 
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Thanks for the link.

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#12 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 10:32 AM
 
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jemini- i have to partially disagree, what they are making fun of they do themselves in practice, they also cherry pick which studies to base their practice on and from this post and others doesnt seem like they go out of their way whatsoever to learn about the otherside of birth that obstetrics is lacking. Saving babies is fine its what all birth professionals do, but most babies dont need saving, and denying women the right to have a positive and empowering birth experience is ignorant and selfish, these people obviously have no clue how birth can be when not over medicalized.

 

Also, to point out, seeing as this a fairly popular blog, I highly doubt the majority of people posting comments and reading it are actual professionals. I also really like how they are pulling stuff from this thread and posting it to laugh at. Go for it! If you are to cowardly to let me know what you think of my posts then I have no use for you :)

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#13 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 11:00 AM
 
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You should never read anything by Amy she is a psycho. She goes around searching HB sites and tells everyone their baby will die...she's real mature!


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#14 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 11:39 AM
 
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i dont think it is appropriate to call her psycho, but if that is what she does it is unfortunate.

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You should never read anything by Amy she is a psycho. She goes around searching HB sites and tells everyone their baby will die...she's real mature!



 


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#15 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 01:41 PM
 
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I did, in fact, realize that the post on attachment parenting and autism was satirical -- which does not make it any less absurd and obnoxious.  Thanks, Jeminijad, for your snarky suggestion that I did not grasp this woman's intent.  Oh, by the way, that was sarcasm I just used.

 

I agree with other posters that this woman's tone is thoroughly inappropriate.  It's one thing to suggest that homebirth should take place under particular conditions and with the appropriate safety measures in place, and that homebirth is in fact not a good idea for some moms and babies.  It is another thing entirely to mock an entire way of thinking and deride a very diverse group of women because they make choices that contradict her particular understanding of science and data analysis. 

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#16 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 02:31 PM
 
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Well OK guess I shouldn't have called her that but seriously I'm sure you haven't seen what a jerk she truly is. She commented on a blog that a woman wrote on HB and it included Ina

May. This Amy woman flipped out calling all HBers baby killers and said Ina May has killed lots of babies including her own....that is wrong on so many levels...she literally searches for blogs and articles to bash the posts...

 

She has said really offensive things. She commented that Ricki Lake should die b/c of all the babies she's killed with her movie...this woman also has a sort of online posse that follows her around agrees with her on all her posts.


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#17 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 03:33 PM
 
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well, that is all the more reason to speak out against her appropriately, you cant fight ignorance with ignorance (not calling you ignorant), and to truly stand out amongst immature and ignorant people you need to speak maturely and accurately, IMO. I was reading up on Henci's board and she stated that they couldnt find confirmation of her education or experience, I think she is either a fraud, or overinflates her experiences, she also "retired" as an OB to have her children... and yet she finished school in 1984... and somehow claims to have delivered over 1000 babies(thousands i believe is the term used)... Her claims dont add up, she graduated in 84 and retired to have children, yet a picture of her children in 1998 shows a group of kids who look to range from age 3-10... so she retired in 1989? and delivered over a 1000 babies in 5 years? thats 200-400 a year. The woman is a sensationalist who either thinks to highly of herself or purposely insites controversy to get attention and make money. Pretty sad.
 

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Well OK guess I shouldn't have called her that but seriously I'm sure you haven't seen what a jerk she truly is. She commented on a blog that a woman wrote on HB and it included Ina

May. This Amy woman flipped out calling all HBers baby killers and said Ina May has killed lots of babies including her own....that is wrong on so many levels...she literally searches for blogs and articles to bash the posts...

 

She has said really offensive things. She commented that Ricki Lake should die b/c of all the babies she's killed with her movie...this woman also has a sort of online posse that follows her around agrees with her on all her posts.



 

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#18 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 03:40 PM
 
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Well sure you are right but I never have gotten into it with this woman b/c I was pre-warned...I just thing the whole thing is sick.


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#19 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 03:54 PM
 
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 and delivered over a 1000 babies in 5 years? thats 200-400 a year. 

 


Any OB/GYN resident working in a busy teaching hospital will see 20 to 40 deliveries per week.  1000 babies in 5 years sounds perfectly plausible to me.

 

It's possible that this gap in experience between OB/GYNs and many homebirth midwives is part of where the gap in understanding comes from.  To someone who has only delivered 40 or 50 babies ever, a "1 in 500" chance might sound low.  To someone who has delivered a thousand babies, "1 in 500" translates directly to 2 dead babies and 2 grieving mothers that you've seen with your own eyes, and is a situation you must be prepared for.

 

 

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#20 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 04:49 PM
 
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true, depends on how busy the hospital is and how you practice. Im used to OBs who are not hospital based but work in independent clinics. Thanks for pointing that out :)

 

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Any OB/GYN resident working in a busy teaching hospital will see 20 to 40 deliveries per week.  1000 babies in 5 years sounds perfectly plausible to me.

 

It's possible that this gap in experience between OB/GYNs and many homebirth midwives is part of where the gap in understanding comes from.  To someone who has only delivered 40 or 50 babies ever, a "1 in 500" chance might sound low.  To someone who has delivered a thousand babies, "1 in 500" translates directly to 2 dead babies and 2 grieving mothers that you've seen with your own eyes, and is a situation you must be prepared for.

 

 



 


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#21 of 128 Old 09-11-2011, 06:59 PM
 
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I truly think that you hit the nail on the head here.  My views on birth were a lot different in my first few years of midwifery training.  It wasn't until I had been to over 110 births that I saw some very scary complications.  It was quiet sobering and made me feel that my previous "trust birth" stance was very naive. I think Dr. Amy brings up some points that need to be addressed by the NCB and home birth community, but that her overall approach brings shame upon herself and the bitter gossips that follow her.   
 

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Any OB/GYN resident working in a busy teaching hospital will see 20 to 40 deliveries per week.  1000 babies in 5 years sounds perfectly plausible to me.

 

It's possible that this gap in experience between OB/GYNs and many homebirth midwives is part of where the gap in understanding comes from.  To someone who has only delivered 40 or 50 babies ever, a "1 in 500" chance might sound low.  To someone who has delivered a thousand babies, "1 in 500" translates directly to 2 dead babies and 2 grieving mothers that you've seen with your own eyes, and is a situation you must be prepared for.

 

 



 


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#22 of 128 Old 09-12-2011, 12:01 PM
 
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It's hard to imagine a lower pastime than cruelly mocking women who have lost babies at birth. I doubt a person who gets their kicks by doing such a thing is very stable. Certainly, the lack of empathy is unusual and disturbing. This woman claims to be in the business of healing people? What a bedside manner she must have...

 

Despite having had both babies at home with experienced professionals in attendance, I agree that the "trust birth" mindset can be extreme and dangerous. But it's possible to express our concerns without malice and brutality. The ugliness in her writing completely overshadows anything valuable she might have to say. What a pity that she chooses this approach.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by olive&pimiento View Post

 I think Dr. Amy brings up some points that need to be addressed by the NCB and home birth community, but that her overall approach brings shame upon herself and the bitter gossips that follow her.   
 


 


I think this sums it up for me.  The two things that bother me the most is that this person assumes that the HB mamma just decided out of the blue one day to have a HB.  The other is that she also assumes that these "posts" couldn't be duplicated for someone having a horrid experience with a hospital birth.  What about those adverse outcomes and "trusting the provider"? 

 

An even playing field is what every family deserves.

 


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It's hard to imagine a lower pastime than cruelly mocking women who have lost babies at birth. I doubt a person who gets their kicks by doing such a thing is very stable. Certainly, the lack of empathy is unusual and disturbing. This woman claims to be in the business of healing people? What a bedside manner she must have...

 


It's beyond unstable.  It's clinically narcissistic. 

 

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#25 of 128 Old 09-12-2011, 05:35 PM
 
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I don't feel qualified to diagnose her but it's definitely not an attitude I'd want in any doctor of mine. Can you imagine having to see someone like that for emergency care after such a devastating loss? I wonder if she has the audacity to tell her unfortunate patients these things in real life, or if she saves her venom for the relative safety of the internet. Somehow I doubt she'd say these things to a grieving mother's face, but I've been wrong before.


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#26 of 128 Old 09-12-2011, 06:03 PM
 
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I'm not going to speak for Dr. Amy, but I think some attitudes are being attributed to her that she may not have.  In Teen Skepchick's interview with her, she goes out of her way to say that if a mother knows the facts and still chooses home birth, she has no problem with it.  Her objection, as I understand it, is that she thinks that mothers are making decisions based on incomplete or inaccurate information.  The specific sentence I remember from the interview was along the lines of "The risks of home birth are low, but they are real."

 

I agree that her presentation is brusque and often is in my opinion unacceptably rude.  But with a topic as important as this, that seems worth working past.  I'd rather hear the truth spoken by a jerk than pretty lies spoken by a nice person.

 

Link to the interview: http://sciencebasedparenting.com/2010/07/31/exclusive-interview-skeptical-ob-dr-amy-tuteur/

 

found the actual quote I was thinking of:

 

"The risk of home birth is small, but it’s real, and if you want to take that risk – OK, you’re free to take that risk. Everyone’s free to choose their medical care. The problem that I have with the American home birth movement is that they’re not honest with women. They insist that home birth is as safe or safer than hospital birth, and that’s just not the case. So, everyone deserves to make an informed decision about where she chooses to give birth, but you can’t be informed without the facts."

 

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#27 of 128 Old 09-13-2011, 04:01 AM
 
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When I decided that I wanted a home birth, I did MONTHS of research - WELL before I even started trying to get pregnant.  I certainly did not only look for the articles that presented it in a positive light and avoid the ones warning of danger.  I wanted to know EVERYTHING I could about it.  

 

If ONE article is going to change someone's mind, maybe it really isn't the best choice for that person anyway.

 

If ONE author is going to give a person an overall impression on a broad subject such as this, chances are the reader is not a professional in this subject area anyway, and his/her opinion will matter little overall.  (In terms of making it harder for someone to achieve a home birth if they want one)  

 

I read the article, I'm still planning a home birth, and I'm not scared or doubting my educated choice.

 

:)

 

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#28 of 128 Old 09-13-2011, 05:49 AM
 
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Quote:
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I'm not going to speak for Dr. Amy, but I think some attitudes are being attributed to her that she may not have.  In Teen Skepchick's interview with her, she goes out of her way to say that if a mother knows the facts and still chooses home birth, she has no problem with it.  Her objection, as I understand it, is that she thinks that mothers are making decisions based on incomplete or inaccurate information.  The specific sentence I remember from the interview was along the lines of "The risks of home birth are low, but they are real."

 

I agree that her presentation is brusque and often is in my opinion unacceptably rude.  But with a topic as important as this, that seems worth working past.  I'd rather hear the truth spoken by a jerk than pretty lies spoken by a nice person.

 

Link to the interview: http://sciencebasedparenting.com/2010/07/31/exclusive-interview-skeptical-ob-dr-amy-tuteur/

 

found the actual quote I was thinking of:

 

"The risk of home birth is small, but it’s real, and if you want to take that risk – OK, you’re free to take that risk. Everyone’s free to choose their medical care. The problem that I have with the American home birth movement is that they’re not honest with women. They insist that home birth is as safe or safer than hospital birth, and that’s just not the case. So, everyone deserves to make an informed decision about where she chooses to give birth, but you can’t be informed without the facts."

 


 

The only was I'm disagreeing is that there is a huge hospital/medicalized birth problem in the US that is being ignored.  More mom's are dying in childbirth in the US now!  I don't want the HB "movement" (are we up to 1 whole percent in the US now?) is that the ACOG are not showing fair and even information.  They are choosing to use non evidence-based medicine over and over and over.  My biggest problem is that 90% + women are being induced or augemented for labor...how is that right? 

 

I know I'm making emotional arguements right now but I get where the Dr. is coming from, I would like to see her lay out her side as accurately as possible.  WHY are women wanting HB?  There are reasons that aren't being addressed by the ACOG.  It's not all touchy-feely stuff.


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#29 of 128 Old 09-13-2011, 06:35 AM
 
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The induction rate, c-section rate, and overall too much intervention is what scared me away from the hospital anyway. I was laughed at when I told my OB at 28 weeks I wanted NO DRUGS! She literally laughed at me and said "that doesn't happen in the hospital" so I searched high and low and found out about hypnobirthing and started that then finally found a birth center and drove 1hr+ for every visit there and back! It was worth it!

 

Now with our second we are choosing a HB, for lot's of reasons.

 

So yeah I would certainly agree that the "HB movement" is b/c of the bad practices at hospitals. Even if you deliver vaginally what are your chances of doing it drug free? The pitocin rate at many hospitals is like 90%....after 10 hrs people are being sectioned due to "failure to progress" even though birth (especially first) usually takes 24 hours.

 

And yes of course maternal and infant death rates in this country...


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#30 of 128 Old 09-13-2011, 07:02 AM
 
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I think if more hospitals were like the hospital I gave birth (both times) at, there wouldn't be such a drive to birth at home. It does make more sense to encourage women to want to use the hospital, rather than scare them out of being at home, although I agree that one needs to be informed about the added risks.

My first labor was 72 hours, and I spent 48 of those at the hospital, I couldn't keep water down so I needed an IV, zofran, etc. I was stuck at 4cm forever (30 hours), it seemed (I was only 2cm when I went in, 4cm the next morning, and still 4cm the afternoon the next day) I would have been tagged with a 'failure to progress' anywhere else, and pushed into a c-section.

As it happened, they always gave me options. I opted for a morphine sleep on one night since i was so exhausted. I did agree to try pitocin the next day to see if it helped. (had already tried nipple stimulation, and moving around, with not great effect) Finally when my water broke that night things started to happen, but still, was pushing for 2 hours. If I had gotten an epidural, my ob/gyn (and the other ob/gyn there) firmly believe that my son wouldn't have handled pushing as well (as it was, he was barely tolerating it) and I would have ended up with a c-section. So I was pretty glad I still had a somewhat 'natural' birth - especially since pushing was difficult, and being able to feel where he was stuck/etc made a difference.

my hospital is proud of their low c-section rate, and their support of natural birth. They had birth balls, stools, tubs, etc., to labor in. They never pushed anything on me. They were super pro-breastfeeding and also did skin-to-skin right after birth, and breastfeeding as soon as possible.

I wish all hospitals in this country were like this, since then I don't think so many women would feel compelled to birth in riskier places. I certainly understand why one would given what I read on here about others' experiences.

mom to z (June 2009) and m (may 2011)

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