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#1 of 192 Old 09-12-2011, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Has anyone seen this blog...?  Someone posted it on another forum that I'm part of.  She said she was appalled by it, and several other women came in to say that they didn't understand what was appalling.  (This other site is very... uh... not MDC, lol).

 

http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

 


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#2 of 192 Old 09-12-2011, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, after looking around a bit, I'm realizing that she's well known for bashing HB, and HBing mamas...lol.

I'll crawl back under my rock now.  


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#3 of 192 Old 09-12-2011, 03:50 PM
 
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There was a time when threads about anti-homebirth sites got zapped with a padlock.  I'm not sure what's going on now, with the more minimal moderation, so I'll get this off my lactating chest.... winky.gif

 

To the (Selectively) Skeptical (Ex) OB, babies who die out of hospital are not a tragedy; they're a statistic.  Each death marks one more cheap political point toward advancing her Cause. (And I already explained the problem with baby death-mining in Post 51 in this thread). 

 

I bereave all mothers who've suffered neonatal loss. As a mother myself, I find the very thought of it terrifying.  Keep in mind, however, that not all of these mothers are jumping on board to become one of Amy's human mascots; they recognize the problem in a broader context. 

 

Bottom line: If you point out to the playground bully that s/he's being a bully, that person will just taunt you even more.  My advice is to avoid that site.  If you want the anti-homebirth side of the debate, read stuff from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, who manage to make their case civilly and without all of the the playground antics.  Or heck, if you're looking for some evils-of-homebirth discussions, stick around this forum, which seems to have lost its supportive fervor... greensad.gif

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#4 of 192 Old 09-13-2011, 12:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

There was a time when threads about anti-homebirth sites got zapped with a padlock.  I'm not sure what's going on now, with the more minimal moderation, so I'll get this off my lactating chest.... winky.gif

 

To the (Selectively) Skeptical (Ex) OB, babies who die out of hospital are not a tragedy; they're a statistic.  Each death marks one more cheap political point toward advancing her Cause. (And I already explained the problem with baby death-mining in Post 51 of this thread). 

 

I bereave all mothers who've suffered neonatal loss. As a mother myself, I find the very thought of it terrifying.  Keep in mind, however, that not all of these mothers are jumping on board to become one of Amy's human mascots; they recognize the problem in a broader context. 

 

Bottom line: If you point out to the playground bully that s/he's being a bully, that person will just taunt you even more.  My advice is to avoid that site.  If you want the anti-homebirth side of the debate, read stuff from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, who manage to make their case civilly and without all of the the playground antics.  Or heck, if you're looking for some evils-of-homebirth discussions, stick around this forum, which seems to have lost its supportive fervor... greensad.gif



Totally agree with you!  I don't care to search out any evils-of-homebirth discussions, but when someone linked me to that blog, I was kind of surprised.  I can't believe how... unprofessional that "doctor" is.  She used the phrase "dead babies piling up" in one of her posts... And I absolutely see what you mean about her seeing HB deaths as points on her side.  It's pretty disturbing.


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#5 of 192 Old 09-13-2011, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Turquesa View Post

 


To the (Selectively) Skeptical (Ex) OB, babies who die out of hospital are not a tragedy; they're a statistic.  Each death marks one more cheap political point toward advancing her Cause. (And I already explained the problem with baby death-mining in Post 51 of this thread). 

 

 

 

When I try to click on the link you posted, it brings me to this thread...lol.  


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#6 of 192 Old 09-13-2011, 07:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by xzaviers_mama View Post



 

When I try to click on the link you posted, it brings me to this thread...lol.  

Sorry.  redface.gif  Try again. 
 

 


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#7 of 192 Old 09-13-2011, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry.  redface.gif  Try again. 
 

 

 

Ah yes, the Kanna thread...lol.  

 

 

 

Their excuse: “…malpractice information is a poor indicator of a physician's quality.”

 

Gee, I’d get reamed in this forum for saying the same thing about negligent midwives….

 

I *could* make the case that these doctors don’t want to release their data because, among other malpractice and negligence issues, too many obstetricians are responsible for preventable neonatal deaths and don’t want the public to know.  Sound familiar?  It should.   winky.gif


 

 

clap.gif  EXACTLY!  


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 . . .

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#9 of 192 Old 11-16-2011, 11:41 PM
 
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 . . .

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#10 of 192 Old 11-17-2011, 05:11 AM
 
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Km, I'm so sorry for your son's disability, but I'm sure you've done a lot of research about the causes of cerebral palsy and other brain injuries of the newborn and "lack of oxygen".  The research for years and years has stated that there is no way to know when the injury occurred.  Most juries will believe it is due to a hard birth, but the research isn't as sure.  This belief that all babies should be born healthy and alive or else someone is to blame or to pay seems wrong to me.  I believe there are some birth emergencies that if occurring at home or birth center might be worse for baby or mom.  But, on the converse, there are more things done in hospitals that are worse for mom & baby.  Parents have to pick the risks they can live with.

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#11 of 192 Old 11-17-2011, 07:39 AM
 
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Km, I'm very sorry to hear about your heartbreak and I do not doubt that what your family has been through truly has brought you to the limits of what you ever imagined you could withstand. The treatment you have described from your midwives is shocking and I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. I can't believe they could be so cold. Your son is adorable, by the way, and I applaud your effort to get the word out about his disability. I wish more people understood that CP is not the end, that many of these kids are incredibly bright and capable people who carve out lives for themselves that are fulfilling and meaningful and that they are not to be pitied.

 

But I have to echo what Joy has stated above me. I know three children who share your childs disability(two young children and one of them now close to being an adult). All three of them were hospital births...one of them a repeat c-section (the mothers third c/s). What do we tell those mothers? Who do THEY get to blame? They are heartbroken too, but they don't have to deal with the culture of "blame" because they all went to the hospital, they all did "everything they could" to ensure the safety of their babies. None of these children are disabled as a result of homebirth, so their stories are not supportive of the "hospital birth is safer" narrative....but, how come when a kid is born with injury/problems in a hospital, it doesn't create or contribute to a "hospital birth is DANGEROUS" narrative? When a homebirth mama has a healthy outcome, it's "luck"....when she has a bad outcome it's "Evidence of the dangers of homebirth" - when a hospital birthing mama has a good outcome it's "of COURSE! She was in the hospital" - but when she has a bad outcome it's "well, she did everything she could by being in the hospital" or it's simply NOT talked about....but it never seems to equate to "the hospital is a dangerous place".

 

I think the truth is: Home is "A place" to give birth. The hospital is "A place" to give birth.....and danger, can visit ANY place. You have to choose.

 

I know it's very convenient and sounds shallow and callous for the mother of two healthy children to say...but I do not feel comfortable pretending a world where there is ALWAYS someone to blame or some thing that could have been done to prevent poor outcomes and even death. Some people try to say that "if you haven't lost a child, or had an injured child, you don't know and you can't even talk about it" - BS. That would be like saying that only women who have had lifesaving treatment from a hospital are allowed to talk about the quality of a birth experience in the hospital. I haven't lost a child. I can't imagine the torture of enduring that. I wish nothing but peace and kindness for women who are working through grief....but we cannot let child loss take THE place of prominence in the discussion about birth choice and birth safety.

 

People die every day. Some of those people are babies. Plans turn sour and things go wrong and someone isn't always to blame. I know that those are a couple of really intensely callous sounding sentences...but I think that if a  conversation about birth is going to be honest...we have to come to a point where we can openly state that sometimes babies are going to die. Sometimes they die in the womb, sometimes they die during birth...sometimes you make it through a perfect pregnancy and birth and then your baby dies in infancy or childhood or when he's thirty.  In my circle of friends, two babies have died this year. One to a horrible and extremely rapid moving case of meningitis that came out of *nowhere* and the other to brain cancer. Both of these babies were six months or under. Those aren't the only babies I know of who have died this year. In my outter circle, there is an infant who also died of cancer and a five year old girl who they are "keeping comfortable". What the hell do we get to tell THOSE mothers? Who should we instruct them to blame? How do we make sense of that?? We can't. There is nothing those mothers could have done. There is no one to blame....because babies, while they are the BEST of what "people" can be, with all of their perfect newness...are still people...and people die. Every day. We don't ever want it to be OUR babies. But babies are going to die, it is the nature of life, that life ends, and sometimes it ends far sooner than any of us want.

 

If we mandate that ALL BABIES must be born in hospitals....we;re not going to see infant mortality rates drop to zero. Even amongst the "low risk" crowd....babies are still going to die sometimes. Even if we stopped the insane interventions in the hospitals and women were allowed to birth PERFECTLY naturally, in zero intervention, perfect birth habitats with the MOST skilled birth attendants and all the soothing music and birth tubs and anything you could think of and an OR right down the hall....we would STILL not see the infant mortality rates drop to zero. Kids would STILL be born with injuries that may or may not be birth related.

 

Babies die and are injured in hospitals....and babies die and are injured in out of hospital births as well. I don't hide from the figures. I don't shield myself from that  truth. Do I think homebirth is safer than hospital birth?? Well...it's like anything in life....there are trade offs. The hospitals use of intervention, medication and their seemingly being completely unable to just chill the hell out and let birth happen...has led to an enormous amount of birth injury/maternal injury (which ranges from "ooops, we ended up having to take your whole uterus, the surgery that you needed because of the drugs we gave you because of the stopwatch we had you on from the second you walked in the door went wrong, sorry ----- all the way to women who suffer extreme damage to their pelvic region due to insane epis that turned into fourth degree+ tears) and death over the decades. When I view it in that light....home birth seems the far safer option. But then....when you consider some of the rare, but definitely possible, complications which can arise in the course of a birth.....it doesn't get much safer than an operating room down the hall, does it? For all of the ways in which homebirth allows for safer birth, by allowing for more natural birth and allowing the body to do it's perfect work....there will always be the "c-section card"  - and at the end of the day, it can't be argued with very well (except in spiritual words....because there ARE people who genuinely believe that if a baby is meant to die, it's meant to die, and that they would rather that happen at home than in a hospital - but that is not a very popular discussion so we'll skip it).

 

 

So. Anyway. That's my own take on that. Informed consent. I live in the middle of the woods, at least thirty minutes from a hospital (in good weather with no traffic) and I'm a proud homebirther. I've had a water birth, a kitchen birth and this time will be in my woods in a huge teepee. I wouldn't do it any other way, unless my gut told me to. I've been through some pretty terrible things in my life. My childhood is pretty sickening and I try not to think about it too much, so I know that sometimes it's not about what you do, but the path you are here to walk. The experiences you are meant to have etched in your soul in this lifetime. I feel comfortable with my decisions, because I am open to this lifetime unfolding as it must. It's going to do that, unfold, no matter how open I am.....and some events in my life will be wildly loving and fun and some will be so heavy and dark, that they will seem to crush my bones and break my spirit...but I will get up again, and keep walking. If I could do it as a little girl, make it through impossible pain and mistreatment...I can do it again...and I probably will. Because it's a part of life. I hope that the dark parts to come don't have anything to do with my children, because that I think would be the very hardest thing to endure....but I can't control that. Things just blossom, they just unfold. This life around us is just a ride. I happen to think, one of many. I remain open, I remain loving, I hope for the best, I attempt to make decision that will lead to happiness and stregth...and I learn, instead of blaming, when things blow up and are horrendous.

 

I truly respect any mama who decides that she can't take the idea of responsibility for homebirth or just doesn't want to have a HB and goes to the hospital to give birth. But just like I think it's foolish for a woman to say "teh hospital is teh devil and is completely unsafe, nothing bad can happen to me at home!!" - I think it's just as foolish for a woman to think "I will go to the hospital where nothing bad can happen to me or my baby, mothers who give birth at home are irresponsible experience junkies" - those are both slanted, wrong headed ways to look at it. There are many places you could give birth...and none of them is completely perfect or without danger. Danger, death, injury and "bad luck" can visit you anywhere you go, at any time.

 

 

As for this crazy doctor...the blog posted above is sickening. The woman shouldn't be allowed to call herself a doctors. "Dead babies piling up" - "Death bringer midwives" - "Homebirth makes for dead babies" - that is fear mongering rubbish and filth. I wish I'd realized what that blog was before I opened it, because that is exactly the kind of hateful BS I try to avoid while pregnant. In her article about the Oregan "death bringer" Midwives, she cites the NINETEEN deaths in the past DECADE as evidence that midwives there are "out of control" and that homebirth is "clearly unsafe".

 

19 deaths? Really? 19 deaths in ten years is evidence that birthing out of hospital is unsafe? Gee, I wonder how many babies have died in hospital in Oregon during that same period of time. A far cry more than 19, I'd be willing to bet. But here's the tricky thing hospitals get to do.....they get to say "yeah, but those were HIGH RISK situations" - and people all nod their heads "yes, yes, that's right...high risk" - but wait a minute.....what do they get to call high risk? Anything from twins to over 35 to "didn't have the right color underwear"....I'm obviously being facetious with that last one....but truly, the ways in which they "sneak" certain women, situations, etc into a high risk category to twist the statistics around and make it seem like out of hospital birth is SO dangerous is disgusting. "Pre-existing condition" - could mean ANYTHING...if you actually cracked the ladies case, it could be something that ABSOLUTELY caused her bad outcome....or it could be something as ridiculous as "suffered depression in her twenties" - but it doesn't matter....her bad outcome is still factored out of the statistics because she is "high risk"...so her infant death doesn't "count" toward shining light on the fact that the hospital can experience danger and bad outcomes in normal birth situations too.

 

 

I KNOW there is such a thing as a bad MW......but there are ALSO bad OB's. But when an OB gets sued...the hospital insurance policy picks up the tab and part of the settlement reached, includes a contract that says that the family can't talk about what happened. OBs bad outcomes are protected, hushed and swept under a rug statistically...midwives are thrown in rivers to see if they drown or not.

 

 


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#12 of 192 Old 11-17-2011, 11:26 AM
 
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The biggest difference in your comparison is that Doctors and Hospitals held accountable for their mistakes both financially and professionally. In Oregon, where I live, midwives are not.  In fact MANA does not release any of the homebirth stats to anyone. So there is a lot of silent cries out there with no way to be heard.  As for CP, your comment that their life is not over is ignorant and offensive on many levels.  Cerebral Palsy is an umbrella term for Brain Damage.  So, yes there are cases of CP that we don't know how to prevent yet. My son's was preventable.  Victims of birth trauma that leads to CP are winning lawsuits with ground breaking amounts against doctors and hospitals. (Most recently, $144 million for failing to recognize that a C-section should be performed)  IF, god forbid a mistake is still made in the hospital doctors are being held accountable for the Millions of dollars in lifetime expenses and care that the child will need.  You may not think that is important until you are faced with a bills that you could not pay off in 10 lifetimes.  I am not talking about your Macy's credit card bill.  I am talking about necessary therapies and equipment that mean the differance between a child ever being able to sit up or walk across a room.  What about when my husband and I die? What then.  I guess my son just never deserves more than a life struggling on government assistance.  At least you can still cling to your idealic dream of homebirth.  After all, thats the whole point of birth right? Not safe and healthy families.  Thanks for glossing over and tossing aside my son and our pain.

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#13 of 192 Old 11-17-2011, 01:07 PM
 
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The biggest difference in your comparison is that Doctors and Hospitals held accountable for their mistakes both financially and professionally. In Oregon, where I live, midwives are not.  In fact MANA does not release any of the homebirth stats to anyone. So there is a lot of silent cries out there with no way to be heard.  As for CP, your comment that their life is not over is ignorant and offensive on many levels.  Cerebral Palsy is an umbrella term for Brain Damage.  So, yes there are cases of CP that we don't know how to prevent yet. My son's was preventable.  Victims of birth trauma that leads to CP are winning lawsuits with ground breaking amounts against doctors and hospitals. (Most recently, $144 million for failing to recognize that a C-section should be performed)  IF, god forbid a mistake is still made in the hospital doctors are being held accountable for the Millions of dollars in lifetime expenses and care that the child will need.  You may not think that is important until you are faced with a bills that you could not pay off in 10 lifetimes.  I am not talking about your Macy's credit card bill.  I am talking about necessary therapies and equipment that mean the differance between a child ever being able to sit up or walk across a room.  What about when my husband and I die? What then.  I guess my son just never deserves more than a life struggling on government assistance.  At least you can still cling to your idealic dream of homebirth.  After all, thats the whole point of birth right? Not safe and healthy families.  Thanks for glossing over and tossing aside my son and our pain.


 


I am speaking as a person who has been involved in respite care for years, who comes from a family who has worked tirelessly in respite care since before I was born, from a family which (on one side) has more children in it who are foster/adopted with multiple and sometimes profound mental and physical disabilities than it has biologically conceived children and as a person who, in my personal life since being out of respite care, has known personally two children dx'd with CP that would be considered moderate and one who would be considered severe. I know it's not cute, to have a kid with severe disability. I've seen how it plays out, when they are big and hard to move and not babies any more.  I will not pretend that this background puts me anywhere CLOSE to knowing what it is like to give birth to and care for a child with such profound injury.  I did not mean to gloss over or toss aside your son and your pain. I speak only of what I know, which is that even children with severe physical and mental challenges can carve out meaningful lives. Can have important relationships. Can be an irreplacable part of other peoples lives. Can be truly happy. That is usually because of the tireless, all consuming work of caregivers/parents that often leaves marriages tested and bank accounts empty...and I didn't mean to imply that because your son, with therapies and rehabilitation squads and teams of people to help, could one day learn to do things doctors say today will never be possible for him, that somehow this is "all okay"....because you're right, it doesn't solve any of your problems that these possibilities exist and you have to think about things as a parent that I can't even conceive of.

 

I am sincerely sorry for anything hurtful that I said to you, for anything that I said that was callous to your situation or just plain wrong.

 

But what you are coming here saying...and what I've seen you say on other threads where the issue being discussed was not anything to do with homebirth injury,  is that if you could go back in time, you would go in for a c-section to surgically remove your son from your body, to spare him the long labor which you believe resulted in his injury and was caused by the midwives handling your care deciding that his being posterior was not a big deal. <--- That is where I have to disagree with you.

 

I have no right to comment on your sons injury, what it means for your life and what you should be thankful for. I was way out of line if I made a comment in that vein and I apologize. If I gave you the impression that I don't think children with brain damage is a big deal...I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to do that and it wasn't my place to comment.

 

But it seems to me that you just kind of came to the homebirth forum for the specific purpose of telling women who plan to homebirth that it was the biggest mistake of your life. It feels to me like you want to fear women away from choosing homebirth, because you have been led to believe, by research a lot of people don't even agree with anymore, that if you had chosen a c-section in the hospital for your posterior baby, your son would not be brain damaged. That's not fair though. It's really not fair. 

 

A posterior baby is not a high risk baby.  Kids born by (non-emergent and emergency) c-section go on to be dx'd with CP all the time and some older AND emerging research flies in the face of what is typically regarded as the "truth" about birth injury and CP. I think I can say with certainty, that none of the midwives I know or have given birth with would risk out a lady who had a posterior baby. I know very well the stats of all MWs I have worked with and only one of them has a birth injury of this sort to her name....and I know for a fact that they have successfully birthed many posterior babies. I am very connected to my birth center, we have moms group and all of our kids play together....I can think of three or four kids off the top of my heads who were posterior babies and whose mothers had long, hard, wonderful births. Should those women really have gone to the hospital and signed up for c-sections? Well, okay, but then what do I tell the lady who has a kid with severe CP, who delivered by non-emergent c-section? What should she have done differently?

 

There are bad OBs out there who are allowed to practice "bad medicine" for YEARS.....because the things they do that put women at risk are considered normal and okay in Western medicine. What MWs do is hardly EVER seen as okay by the "establishment" so EVERYthing they do that goes wrong, is suspect. An OB can have WAY more "dead babies" to his name that are chalked up to "well, we did everything we could" - than a MW ever gets. I agree with you, that there are better and worse midwives out there and that a way to tell the difference between the reckless ones and the thinking/compassionate/responsible ones is a must.

 

But I haven't seen you on Mothering talking about reforming the ways in which midwives are regulated. I've seen you ONLY in the homebirth forum and ONLY nay saying homebirth and pointing to your situation as all the proof anyone should need to stay away from homebirth. "My son is disabled forever. Biggest mistake of my life"  you said to another woman, who wasn't asking AT ALL to be told a horror story, but was rather asking for input and help calming her nerves. You come across as angry and like you feel guilty. I am sad for your pain and I wouldn't dare tell you how to process what you're going through...but I think I have a right to tell you that I don't believe the place you are standing, is the truly appropriate pulpit from which to rail against homebirth to a forum full of women who have done the research and made this choice.

 

Every woman has a choice. Things have GOT to change where you live, so that people can choose a MW who has a record that they feel comfortable with. I take for granted the fact that I can get so much information about the births my MWs have attended....I'm sorry that you were not allowed to make an informed choice, because the information wasn't supplied (or you didn't ask for it?) - but I maintain that it's not right or fair for a woman who is obviously and legitimately upset, to come to a forum, dedicated to the support of homebirthing women, and interject emotionally charged naysaying against homebirthing.

 

You haven't come here and said "Women who want to homebirth, please, please listen to me...make sure you know the stats of the MW you choose!!" - you hve come here, to the homebirth forum, to say "I chose homebirth and this is what happened to me, it was the biggest mistake I ever made......be warned, you shouldn't homebirth". That violates the TOU and my right to do my own research and  come to my own conclusions and enjoy the peace of a place where other people share my view.

 

Again, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound dismissive of your situation....I was trying to have a broader discussion about where scary, heartbreaking anecdotal evidence fits in the larger picture about homebirth safety.


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#14 of 192 Old 11-17-2011, 01:48 PM
 
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KmAndrews - I'm so sorry for the trauma you and your family have been through. Although I cannot know exactly how you feel, my sister's son was born with significant issues over 2 years ago and I have lived through that journey with her (as much as I can from being across the country). My nephew cannot talk or walk, but he still brings significant joy to our lives.

 

My nephew's injuries were caused by extreme prematurity, which likely could have been prevented if it weren't for the ineptness of my sister's doctors, and a multitude of interventions by the hospital after his birth. My sister had a very mainstream pregnancy and was supposedly in very good hospitals.  It didn't matter. As others have pointed out, trauma and danger can follow you anywhere.   Hospitals don't always make things better and many times make things worse. I understand why people choose hospital births, but personally I am more comfortable with an experienced midwife that will provide individualized care and a solid backup plan than putting my life and my baby's life in the hands of a hospital that provides medical care based on protocols applicable to everyone and takes away my ability to make any decisions. Of course, if something goes wrong before or during labor, I will transfer to a hospital if necessary. It's all about informed risks and what an individual is comfortable with, but unfortunately I don't think many people are really aware of the risks of a hospital birth until you have actually been through a traumatic experience or know someone who has.  I think most people would be extremely disturbed by some of the things the hospital has done to my sister and nephew.  I am currently planning a homebirth in part because of how my sister was treated following my nephew's birth and because of my own traumatic c-section with my daughter.

 

Also, although my sister initially looked into getting an attorney to fight the hospital and doctors, it isn't as easy as it sounds and she eventually gave up to focus on her family and her son. She is only surviving the many bills because of Medicaid.  Even if you were in a hospital, it is an uphill battle to sue the hospital and doctors unless it was clearly obvious that there was a mistake. The have excuses for everything, or more likely they just ignore your questions.

 

What happened to your son is heartbreaking, but I'm sure you made the best decisions you could for your son while you were pregnant based on what you knew at the time. I hope you are someday able to find some peace with what has happened.

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#15 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 02:22 AM
 
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AverysMomma, those were 2 amazing posts. I could not agree more with your words.

 

 

 

KmAndrews, I have a disabled son. His issue is genetic, not a birth injury, but I completely relate to the pain that you are feeling. He is 4 now and has cancer, we are 1 year out from the diagnosis. I have been on the roller coaster of pain, fear, worry, guilt, blame, and desperation that you have been on, twice.

 

I also have a daughter that was born at home after 3 days of excruciating back labor. She was posterior. I hemorrhaged and almost died. I went through a year of what I have privately labeled PTSD from that birth. The difference being for me, she was just fine.

 

I can only imagine what it would have been like to have these two birth experiences happen at the same time.

 

Since you have been sharing your words of wisdom born from your experience here, I have some to share with you. You need more time for you and your family to heal and move past all of the pain. Your voice, your advocacy, your passion to help mothers make informed choices in the future will be heard so much more clearly when you are not shouting your message from a place of such pain, fear, worry, guilt, blame, and desperation.

 

 

Quote:
 As for CP, your comment that their life is not over is ignorant and offensive on many levels.  Cerebral Palsy is an umbrella term for Brain Damage.

 

 

I urge you to work on seeing your son for the person he is, not the person you imagine he should have been.  I have found tremendous healing in doing that with my son. For the future, it does not matter how or why he got to the place he is. He is there, he is who he is, you can not change that. What matters is where you and your family go from this place.

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#16 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 07:49 AM
 
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Wow, I'm really surprised and disappointed at the response that Kristine has gotten here. Some of these responses seem to have no other purpose but to shame her into not sharing her story with women considering homebirth. She should "take time to move past the pain" before sharing her story? She shouldn't give the other side of the story to women who have "done the research??" How good is this "research" that you've done if it can't withstand the truth?

 

Why is that? Why can't people who are set on homebirth accept that sometimes things go very wrong, and it is the fault of the midwife? No need to mention all the myriad things that can also go wrong in hospital- that's not the point here. The point is that Kristine's son would very likely have been born without brain damage in hospital, but due to the circumstances of his birth he was in fact born with brain damage. Women preparing for homebirth need to know that this is a real possibility. It is one of the things that strikes me most about MDC and associated sites like BWF- there is such an emphasis on "positive thinking" and not accepting any fears about childbirth, when there are plenty of reasons to be wary about birth, no matter where it takes place.

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#17 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 09:58 AM
 
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Wow, I'm really surprised and disappointed at the response that Kristine has gotten here. Some of these responses seem to have no other purpose but to shame her into not sharing her story with women considering homebirth. She should "take time to move past the pain" before sharing her story? She shouldn't give the other side of the story to women who have "done the research??" How good is this "research" that you've done if it can't withstand the truth?

 

Why is that? Why can't people who are set on homebirth accept that sometimes things go very wrong, and it is the fault of the midwife? No need to mention all the myriad things that can also go wrong in hospital- that's not the point here. The point is that Kristine's son would very likely have been born without brain damage in hospital, but due to the circumstances of his birth he was in fact born with brain damage. Women preparing for homebirth need to know that this is a real possibility. It is one of the things that strikes me most about MDC and associated sites like BWF- there is such an emphasis on "positive thinking" and not accepting any fears about childbirth, when there are plenty of reasons to be wary about birth, no matter where it takes place.


Bolded = Exactly. Nobody here is denying the possibility of danger in birth and I disagree completely that women here encourage mothers to ignore the possibility of negative outcomes and direct them toward "happy thoughts" instead of critical thinking. What this thread is specifically railing against, is the opposite of the "happy thoughts" approach....which is the "birth is inherently dangerous and if you don't go to a hospital, your baby will be just another dead body at the top of the midwives pile of dead babies" - that is JUST as dangerous and unhealthy a mentality and anybody who mocks it or is offended is well within their rights.

 

She didn't come here with research and say "look at this research, it actually supports some of what the blogger is saying" - she didn't even say "I really recommend that people do their own research" - she said:

 

- her son is disabled and she believes it's because of where he was born (despite the fact that a lot of research now being considered completely blows out of the water what we thought we "knew" about brain damage and birth injury - and in bringing that up, people were only trying to help her see that it is not her fault, that she shouldn't feel such guilt)

 

and that:

 

- She wishes now, that she had read a blog/articles like the one posted, because she wouldn't have decided to give birth at home had she read it.

 

 

^That is all sad. That makes my heart cry out for her, as a mother and a human being. I can feel her grief through the screen and I want to erase it and make her son better for her...because it's heartbreaking. But really dissect what she is actually saying. She is basically coming to a forum where women DO research tirelessly to find peace in accepting responsibility for their births at home and saying that, the only thing standing between her birthing at home and deciding to birth at the hospital.....was the fact that she happen to miss, in her research, a poorly written, pitifully research/data backed, hateful blog post by a known birth choice hater and liar. Um, what? I agree that the state in question needs to do a MUCH better job regulating midwives and making information available to the public. Consumers making choices with no information makes me sick. But when I hear things like "death bringer midwives" and "homebirth makes for dead babies" and "piles of dead babies at their feet" - referring to the 19 deaths in the past decade.....I start to see what is really going on.

 

She is saying if she could go back, she wouldn't have homebirthed. I believe that is true. If she go jump in a time machine today, I believe she would go to the hospital. But then, she didn't know what she knows now....and this article would not have changed her mind.  Any person who takes opinions like the one of the hate spewer in the blog post at the top of this thread into any consideration, above ACTUAL research and data, when making a decision so important as the one we are faced with as expecting mothers....is an idiot. The same goes for women who do their research and let their choices be swayed by the many sites around the web where women just as hateful, just as ignorant and neglectful of actual facts, spew on and on about how NO MATTER WHAT you MUST ALWAYS birth at home, unassisted and if you do it any other way, you're messing up your babies birth.

 

A year ago, that blog would NOT have stopped Kristine from giving birth at home. She was in research mode, checking out all her options, making sure she got all the information...ACTUAL information...not hate filled poison....and she would have laughed at that article and dismissed it. It is only in her anger and grief (totally legitimate considering what she has been through) that she is seeing that kind of trash blogging as an acceptable voice on homebirth that every researching mother should heed. She may have chosen a different midwife, if the article specifically stated that her midwife was trouble...but there is nothing in the article which actually backs any claims that homebirth is, itself, dangerous.

 

You shouldn't homebirth because my homebirthing has been so awesome and I wholeheartedly recommend it. You shouldn't NOT homebirth because Kristine wishes she hadn't. Just like you shouldn't base your decision on the wacky and data-less opinions of a raving homebirth hater....or the same type of ravings from a person who ONLY supports homebirth.

 

You should read actual INFORMATION...and make your decision based on that. The blog posted above is trash. It is not research material. Kristine sharing her experience, sharing her grief, is fine. There are a hundred different ways she could do that and multiple forums on this board where it would be appropriate. I'm not even necessarily saying that her opinion on this thread isn't appropriate.....I'm just saying, go and look at her profile and view the ten or so posts she's made since she joined MDC recently. They are ALL posted in homebirth, they are ALL negative posts which use her (granted, EXTREMELY sad) bad personal experience as a means to fear mothers away from homebirth.

 

What that says to me....is that this woman is angry, sad and guilty (as ANY mother would be) and that she wishes to strike out in her anger against homebirth. Her feelings are understandable and completely valid to all people here and she should be supported and helped with her processing of this terrible grief and sadness....and we have a forum (two, in fact) on MDC where the specific purpose of the conversation is to help and support a mother in her exact shoes.

 

The homebirth forum is not an appropriate place for her to come and work out here feelings. This is a place for women with questions about homebirth...and women who have made the choice to homebirth and want to be supported in that choice. I have to say, I was a little miffed when Kristine posted her terribly heartbreaking story as a cautionary tale, to the woman on the forum who specifically asked for help in calming her nerves about her upcoming homebirth. That is just NOT the purpose of this forum and I feel justified in saying so. I feel TERRIBLE for what has happened....but I also feel terrible for the mother who is feeling scared despite KNOWING what she wants to do...and is confronted with more of the same kind of  fear mongering which runs so rampant on the internet, which made the expecting mother doubt herself and feel the need to reach out for reassurance in the first place.

 

Questions about homebirth and support for homebirth are welcome on the homebirth forum. Outpouring grief, anger, sniping comments about homebirth and expression of feelings of guilt over a homebirth that didn't end well.....those are things for the grief forums, the special needs parenting forums, the birth trauma forums. We have places here for posts like hers, where the replies can be ALL ABOUT validation, understanding, support and helpfulness of all of her feelings.....we have those places, separate from all other places, because of the particularly deeply wounding nature of the type of grief that Kristine is feeling and the ability of that type of emotion to creep into the hearts and minds of women who are solid in their choices...and fill them with negative feelings - not based on facts, but emotion - that they are trying to avoid in preparation for a smooth birth.

 

If Kristine wishes to become a birth advocate and caution women against homebirth....I am sure that she will be VERY good at that. I'm sure that, given the time to process what she is going through, she will be able to do so using facts, information and research that women can use to further empower themselves in their birthing choices. But right now, she is not empowering people to choose differently than she did, she is just putting fearful thoughts in them.

 

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#18 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 01:33 PM
 
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Bolded = Exactly. Nobody here is denying the possibility of danger in birth and I disagree completely that women here encourage mothers to ignore the possibility of negative outcomes and direct them toward "happy thoughts" instead of critical thinking. What this thread is specifically railing against, is the opposite of the "happy thoughts" approach....which is the "birth is inherently dangerous and if you don't go to a hospital, your baby will be just another dead body at the top of the midwives pile of dead babies" - that is JUST as dangerous and unhealthy a mentality and anybody who mocks it or is offended is well within their rights.

 

She didn't come here with research and say "look at this research, it actually supports some of what the blogger is saying" - she didn't even say "I really recommend that people do their own research" - she said:

 

- her son is disabled and she believes it's because of where he was born (despite the fact that a lot of research now being considered completely blows out of the water what we thought we "knew" about brain damage and birth injury - and in bringing that up, people were only trying to help her see that it is not her fault, that she shouldn't feel such guilt)

 

and that:

 

- She wishes now, that she had read a blog/articles like the one posted, because she wouldn't have decided to give birth at home had she read it.

 

 

^That is all sad. That makes my heart cry out for her, as a mother and a human being. I can feel her grief through the screen and I want to erase it and make her son better for her...because it's heartbreaking. But really dissect what she is actually saying. She is basically coming to a forum where women DO research tirelessly to find peace in accepting responsibility for their births at home and saying that, the only thing standing between her birthing at home and deciding to birth at the hospital.....was the fact that she happen to miss, in her research, a poorly written, pitifully research/data backed, hateful blog post by a known birth choice hater and liar. Um, what? I agree that the state in question needs to do a MUCH better job regulating midwives and making information available to the public. Consumers making choices with no information makes me sick. But when I hear things like "death bringer midwives" and "homebirth makes for dead babies" and "piles of dead babies at their feet" - referring to the 19 deaths in the past decade.....I start to see what is really going on.

 

She is saying if she could go back, she wouldn't have homebirthed. I believe that is true. If she go jump in a time machine today, I believe she would go to the hospital. But then, she didn't know what she knows now....and this article would not have changed her mind. 

She can't go back in time to change her own path, but she sure did change mine by posting her story! Thank you for sharing your experience! I was teetering on the edge of choosing home birth or birth in a natural birth center attached to a hospital with a regular labor and delivery floor and NICU. You helped me to decide home birth is too dangerous with midwives who don't know what they are doing! You're very brave for standing up against people like the women on here who have said some of the most callous and condescending things I have ever seen! If you ladies are a representation of the home birth movement I certainly want nothing to do with it! 
 

 

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#19 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 02:20 PM
 
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She can't go back in time to change her own path, but she sure did change mine by posting her story! Thank you for sharing your experience! I was teetering on the edge of choosing home birth or birth in a natural birth center attached to a hospital with a regular labor and delivery floor and NICU. You helped me to decide home birth is too dangerous with midwives who don't know what they are doing! You're very brave for standing up against people like the women on here who have said some of the most callous and condescending things I have ever seen! If you ladies are a representation of the home birth movement I certainly want nothing to do with it! 
 

 


I'm trying to tread lightly here.  I have never heard that a posterior baby is anything but another position.  I don't know what, other than having a pre-emptive, elective ceasarean section would have been different in a hospital vs. the birth center where she gave birth.  I don't know anything other than what she's said.  I have not studied CP.  I don't know what the current research says. 

 


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#20 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 02:24 PM
 
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I'm surprised that with all the information available about the poor maternity care in the US and the safety/dangerousness of homebirth that the one piece of information that would make up a woman's mind about one of the most important decisions she will probably make in her life is one other woman's story.  Would it change your mind about hospital birth if I told you some horrible story about what happens there?  I could, because I was a nurse on L&D for ten years.  I could tell you stories that would haunt you.  And if my terrible stories made someone choose not to birth in a hospital, I would really wonder why that person used one little story to decide the fate of her unborn child.  Doesn't seem to make sense.  There are horrible doctors, midwives out there.  Some work in hospitals, some in birth centers or homes.  The difference I've seen in my experience;  some of the bad outcomes that happen at home are from not doing something for the patient.  When I worked in the hospital, the bad outcomes happened from doing something terrible to that Mom &/or baby.  It disturbs me much more that people in healthcare actually harm patients with their actions rather than those that harm due to inaction. 

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#21 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lex99999 View Post

Wow, I'm really surprised and disappointed at the response that Kristine has gotten here. Some of these responses seem to have no other purpose but to shame her into not sharing her story with women considering homebirth. She should "take time to move past the pain" before sharing her story? She shouldn't give the other side of the story to women who have "done the research??" How good is this "research" that you've done if it can't withstand the truth?

 

Why is that? Why can't people who are set on homebirth accept that sometimes things go very wrong, and it is the fault of the midwife? No need to mention all the myriad things that can also go wrong in hospital- that's not the point here. The point is that Kristine's son would very likely have been born without brain damage in hospital, but due to the circumstances of his birth he was in fact born with brain damage. Women preparing for homebirth need to know that this is a real possibility. It is one of the things that strikes me most about MDC and associated sites like BWF- there is such an emphasis on "positive thinking" and not accepting any fears about childbirth, when there are plenty of reasons to be wary about birth, no matter where it takes place.


I could not agree more.  The condescension directed at women who dare disagree with the MDC status quo is horrifying.

 

 

 

 

 

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#22 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 03:11 PM
 
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I'm surprised that with all the information available about the poor maternity care in the US and the safety/dangerousness of homebirth that the one piece of information that would make up a woman's mind about one of the most important decisions she will probably make in her life is one other woman's story.  Would it change your mind about hospital birth if I told you some horrible story about what happens there?  I could, because I was a nurse on L&D for ten years.  I could tell you stories that would haunt you.  And if my terrible stories made someone choose not to birth in a hospital, I would really wonder why that person used one little story to decide the fate of her unborn child.  Doesn't seem to make sense.  There are horrible doctors, midwives out there.  Some work in hospitals, some in birth centers or homes.  The difference I've seen in my experience;  some of the bad outcomes that happen at home are from not doing something for the patient.  When I worked in the hospital, the bad outcomes happened from doing something terrible to that Mom &/or baby.  It disturbs me much more that people in healthcare actually harm patients with their actions rather than those that harm due to inaction. 

I said I was teetering on the edge which denotes I've done other research.  The information available about poor maternity care in hospitals in the US and it does not apply to me as I am an upper middle class white female. All the evidence of poor maternity care in the US proves a abhorrent racial and economic problem. White women from middle to upper income brackets have wonderful outcomes in the US maternity system. Her one story didn't change my mind it was just the straw that broke the camels back along with the attitude of all the people on this website that support home birth. Yes babies die in hospital too, but very rarely from preventable deaths like they do in all the home birth stories I've read. The current home birth system in the US seems fractured and unsafe. The training midwives receive seems so varied and unregulated and god forbid something does happen to my baby and they need life long care. Who's going to pay for it? Very few midwives carry malpractice insurance. It seems completely irresponsible to choose home birth to me now that I know so much! 
 

 

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Up until yesterday I was still entertaining the idea of a home birth, but seriously how can I ignore the facts of the current system in the US and the vicious way in which you ladies respond to anyone who disagrees with you? You think because you pretend to say it in a nice way it's okay? I was considering home birth with a CNM, birth at Best Start Birth Center or birth at the USCD natural birth center. I figured I'd would be a safe option to hire a CNM knowing I'm 1.5 miles from the hospital if anything goes wrong, but in a true emergency that would seem very far and also I want my care provider to be held accountable if they do something horribly wrong! 

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#24 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 03:49 PM
 
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I'm surprised that with all the information available about the poor maternity care in the US and the safety/dangerousness of homebirth that the one piece of information that would make up a woman's mind about one of the most important decisions she will probably make in her life is one other woman's story.  Would it change your mind about hospital birth if I told you some horrible story about what happens there?  I could, because I was a nurse on L&D for ten years.  I could tell you stories that would haunt you.  And if my terrible stories made someone choose not to birth in a hospital, I would really wonder why that person used one little story to decide the fate of her unborn child.  Doesn't seem to make sense.  There are horrible doctors, midwives out there.  Some work in hospitals, some in birth centers or homes.  The difference I've seen in my experience;  some of the bad outcomes that happen at home are from not doing something for the patient.  When I worked in the hospital, the bad outcomes happened from doing something terrible to that Mom &/or baby.  It disturbs me much more that people in healthcare actually harm patients with their actions rather than those that harm due to inaction. 

 

 

This is all I was trying to say.

 

Everyone has a story to tell. Every story is important because it makes up the fabric of our collective story and I care about that. But no persons story can ever come close to serving as a definitive answer to any question about safety and birth..,

 

The safest mother, I think, that any of us could hope to be....is the one with as much information as possible, coupled with a desire and the will to advocate for herself or involve someone on her birth team who is also knowledgeable and is willing to advocate for her and her TRUE best interest. You can be in the hospital....and ill informed...and end up having a disastrous birth. You can be at home....and ill informed....and end up with the same thing. You can be WELL informed and have a bad outcome too....but if you are TRULY informed, you have the better shot of any of us no matter where you are.

 

Hysteria doesn't work. Only hearing horror stories and/or flopsy mopsy spirit-quest style birth stories about love and light and perfection in birthing.....is going to lead to emotional decision making. Fear based thinking, or thinking that is dangerously lacking in the kind of acknowledgement that allows a person to conceptualize how certain situations which arise should be handled.

 

There is a place in everyones research time for zoning out, all misty eyed, on beautiful stories and videos....but the information you seek out to actually decide where the best place is for you to birth, is based in real facts and solid info that helps you to better understand the actual process, what your body is doing, what can come up and how to handle it.

 

If you have a horror story about a breech birth turned nightmare.....don't come to the homebirth forum and say:

 

"I had a surprise breech baby and my baby was injured" 

 

If you want t obe an activist and your true aim is to educate so that what happened to you doesn't happen to another lady, come to the homebirth forum instead and say:

 

"My baby was surprise breech and I didn't realize that my midwife didn't know how to handle that. I've since discovered that breech is a variation of normal, which should be treated like this: xyz, do your homework on your MWs ladies, ask them how they handle certain situations, double check what they say against what common sense and solid facts say about the situation....don't just "connect with" a MW....dig into her and find out if she really knows her stuff"

 

THAT is activism, THAT is helpful.....THAT is turning your tragedy, into something which can serve as actual information that helps women digest tragedy in a helpful and constructive way and decide if she thinks she has what it takes to feel responsible for situations like that...instead of making them either a) fearful and dismissive of your story, or b) fearful and turning to the hospital out of fear, no more educated, no more prepared to properly advocate for themselves and ensure they are getting the best care possible.

 

There is a sea of negative outcome stories out there. If you want to join the chorus of voices, shouting in agony over what went wrong with your birth....you can do that and no one, NO ONE will blame you. If you want to shrink away from the internet and never speak of what happened to you...that's fine, too, it's not your responsibility to educate other women if you don't want to.

 

But if your desire is to reach out and warn other women...you have to do that responsibly and with REAL information that can help them. If you are a voice in the sea of voices, talking about the fact that your birth went wrong...many women will feel very sad from you..and then will wall your voice off from themselves, because they don't want to be filled with fear. If you want to reach out, do it with a voice and with information that makes a woman ask MORE questions "what would I have done...does my midwife know what to do if THAT happens??" - that is how you will educate. THAT is how you will change minds and save women, possibly, from suffering your same tragedy.

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People are going to get defensive when someone comes into a home birth forum and every single post the person has is bashing out of hospital midwives and home birth.


Melissa Wife To James & Mama to Christopher Michael- 6/03 ,Ella Cheyenne- 10/09 & Xander Ryan James- 9/10 :
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#27 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 04:36 PM
 
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#28 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 04:38 PM
 
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#29 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 04:40 PM
 
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#30 of 192 Old 11-19-2011, 04:50 PM
 
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I continue to be amazed that women who have a difficult time with homebirth but who persevere are given a big round of "you go mama!" Women who are having doubts about whether or not to go through with homebirth are given the utmost encouragement to talk things over with their midwives and told lots of stories about how homebirths have gone better than hospital births for posters here.

 

But Kristine's very measured comments about being aware of the risks and the fact that an uninsured midwife can't be sued to help care for a disabled child are met with such mistrust and condescension! If Kristine is "bashing" midwives and homebirth, is every woman with a good story to tell now "worshipping" midwives and homebirth? After all, if you can't trust Kristine's motives, why should you trust everyone else's? If Kristine should go away until she has "processed" her hurt and grief, should every woman with a good story to tell go away until she has "processed" her birth high? 

 

This forum is about homebirth. I haven't been able to find it written anywhere that stories about homebirth gone wrong or the dangers of homebirth are forbidden. If only the positive stories are allowed to stand, and negative stories are met with a chorus of shaming responses telling the poster to go away, how is anyone supposed to get a sense of the possible drawbacks? Or is this forum meant to be more of a "positive thoughts only" place?

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