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#31 of 60 Old 03-19-2014, 11:25 AM
 
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Salr - I hear what you are saying, but the whole issue is complex.

 

This is not just a conversation between a couple of friends, but it is "preserved for posterity".   So when someone says something on the boards like "Homebirth of breech babies is safer than hospital birth!" it feels as if that statement lives on forever to misinform and mislead other women.  So a response of "MANA's most recent numbers show that 1 out of every 45 breech homebirth babies died" feels even more necessary to correct the inaccuracy here than it does in a regular conversation -- not only for the OP but for the person who finds the thread 2 years from now and otherwise would find the assertion uncontested.

 

"But something that they can protect themselves from during a very sensitive time if they want to."

 

This is always one of those things that does not compute for me.  There are certain facts that just are true and playing little pretend games that they don't exist makes no sense.

 

I chose to move my daughters forward facing in their car seats at 2 and a half.  The fact was that this was less safe than keeping them rear-facing until age 4 (my original intention).  I didn't wander around trying to protect myself from the information that what I was doing was less safe.  I pulled up my socks and made the decision with the knowledge that what I was doing was not as safe for them.  I didn't try to create a separate forum or website or thread where I could claim with impunity that rear-facing is more dangerous than forward-facing so I could pretend what I was doing was as safe.
 


I support homebirth that meets the qualifications set forth in the AAP's 2013 policy on homebirth.

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#32 of 60 Old 03-19-2014, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mothercat View Post
 

So how does one prove that they are a home birth supporter or advocate?

Is it just a matter of having had a home birth?

Does being a midwife who assists at home birth count?

Or, does it have more to do with the general tone of messages in attempting to discuss home birth safety?

 

It's something that is demonstrated through your posting in the forum.

 

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Cynthia Mosher, I am glad to see the change in the forum guidelines, I hope that sends the forum back in the direction it used to be in. Thank you for your consideration.

 

You're welcome. :)

 

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Honestly, I still find the moderating here odd and off-putting.  For example, I was involved a while back in a really interesting discussion on the SAHM board.  People were making great points, having an interesting and sometimes heated discussion that remained overall respectful in tone.  The moderator closed the thread down for a couple of days "for review".  When she opened it again she did not appear to remove any posts or require editing.  Of course, at that point, the people participating had moved on and the thread basically died.  It was bizzare -- finally some fast-moving activity on the SAHM board, and the moderator killed it for no apparent reason.

 

 

I'm not sure what discussion you are referring to so I can't respond to this in particular.

 

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Also, I wonder if the midwives board would be a good place to have some practice and safety discussions?

 

That would be a good forum to have some discussion directly with midwives. But it should not turn into a discussion to attack individuals or be posting with a pure anti-homebirth of anti-midwifery agenda. 

 

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Salr - I hear what you are saying, but the whole issue is complex.

 

This is not just a conversation between a couple of friends, but it is "preserved for posterity".   So when someone says something on the boards like "Homebirth of breech babies is safer than hospital birth!" it feels as if that statement lives on forever to misinform and mislead other women.  So a response of "MANA's most recent numbers show that 1 out of every 45 breech homebirth babies died" feels even more necessary to correct the inaccuracy here than it does in a regular conversation -- not only for the OP but for the person who finds the thread 2 years from now and otherwise would find the assertion uncontested.

 

"But something that they can protect themselves from during a very sensitive time if they want to."

 

This is always one of those things that does not compute for me.  There are certain facts that just are true and playing little pretend games that they don't exist makes no sense.

 

I chose to move my daughters forward facing in their car seats at 2 and a half.  The fact was that this was less safe than keeping them rear-facing until age 4 (my original intention).  I didn't wander around trying to protect myself from the information that what I was doing was less safe.  I pulled up my socks and made the decision with the knowledge that what I was doing was not as safe for them.  I didn't try to create a separate forum or website or thread where I could claim with impunity that rear-facing is more dangerous than forward-facing so I could pretend what I was doing was as safe.
 

 

I think one of the issues here is that different people use different sources of information to base their opinions and make their decisions - which is fine. What you believe to be "facts that just are true" is not necessarily the case for someone else. There should be a line of agreeing to disagree. The problem arises when someone insists only their opinion, or proof or study is right and everyone and everything else is wrong or misleading or inaccurate. When you come here to post and push your view in that way, that is what is not welcome - and I am speaking specifically in regards to the Homebirth forum in this case. If you have an agenda type posting behavior it may apply to other forums as well but for the purposes of our discussion here I am talking about this forum. 

 

I think discussions about birth practices and birth safety would be better hosted in Birth and Beyond as a general topic, not about trying to change an individual's decision or criticize their choice but rather as a community discussion about a general topic. 

 

I think our revised guidelines provide for a support atmosphere. If posts do not meet those guidelines feel free to flag the post and we'll look into it. :) 


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#33 of 60 Old 03-19-2014, 12:30 PM
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What if those discussions went to birth and beyond? They need to happen, because I don't think moms are getting the full picture. You cannot make an informed decision without all the data. All home birth forums on the internet only talk about how safe it is. No one, anywhere that I am aware of, on the internet is able to talk to moms who want a home birth about the real benefits, and the real risks - both discussions. Non-home birth forums don't recognize any benefits, but how can one make a real risk/benefit analysis if they don't talk about both the risks and the benefits? And because some studies are just now in the last year or so coming out, this data needs to be discussed. If the numbers were all positive towards home birth, changing the TOS for this forum wouldn't even be discussed, but since it is not, and in fact shows home birth to be quite risky, it troubles me that the home birth community wants the info silenced. This type of thing is actually what made me quit working as a home birth assistant. It was difficult for me, after seeing the things I saw, and then on top of that seeing this data coming out. Where does that leave me and my beliefs about home birth? Hiding it doesn't look good for the home birth community. Not being able to talk about the risks makes us look like we can't understand science, or can't make real decisions because we can only listen to what we want to hear.

 

And, salr, those things DID happen to c-section moms. They were frequently lambasted on the forums for years. There was zero support, and a lot of flaming. In fact, around the 2002-2003 time frame, any discussion that seemed positive about c-sections in any way, was deleted. Along with any mention of home birth complications or death.

 

I just want to comment on this because I think it needs to be clarified. C-section mom discussions were occasionally of issue and I think that occurred for a variety of different reasons. But it is not accurate to say there was zero support. We hosted very extensive support threads for C-section moms for a long time before opening a forum - starting somewhere in 2002-2003. Just do a search for cesarean support and you can see the multitude of threads.

 

Some discussions that were removed about C-sections were from a few members who were bent on pushing the value of Csection as a choice - as an elective choice, as a convenience, as a "I decided to have a csection for my own reasons and it is just as good as your vaginal birth" discussion. They were often posted just to argue or as a criticism in another discussion. As a community focused on natural birth and medical intervention only in the case of medical necessity, such posts were not appropriate and only served to set the stage for negativity and lots accusations from both sides and lots of folks in the middle. We don't need that kind of us versus them discussions. 

 

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Originally Posted by Serenity Now View Post

And, salr, those things DID happen to c-section moms. They were frequently lambasted on the forums for years. There was zero support, and a lot of flaming. In fact, around the 2002-2003 time frame, any discussion that seemed positive about c-sections in any way, was deleted. Along with any mention of home birth complications or death.

 

We have been accused of deleting threads to cover up birth complications and death many times. I have responded to these claims many times. Threads that were removed were almost always at the request of the mother. The discussion would turn critical and blaming, making the mother's loss oir complication all the more painful, or she would find that someone here carried her posts over to another website to bash her and her loss. So she would come and ask us to remove the thread - which we always respected and did for her.  

 

Removals of threads that were not at the member's request were those that specifically accused and attacked an individual as being responsible, which were necessary removals due to the liability they presented for Mothering - either at our own legal counsel's advice to do so or as a result of receiving a legal communciation to do so. 


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#34 of 60 Old 03-19-2014, 08:59 PM
 
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I was talking about C-sections before threads were hosted. I remember when the c-section threads (I have been around longer than my username, maybe I'm thinking about 2000 or 2001, but I thought it was more like 2002 or 2003) were allowed to have a weekly thread, and it was because every time someone posted about needing a c-section they were told they didn't need it, and it devolved from there. I also personally read the threads about death or complications that were deleted, and I know in at least one case the mom did not ask for it to be deleted, because she died. There really is no reason to hash out things that happened 10 years ago. The only reason I brought it up is because 1) someone mentioned how awful it would be to crash c-section threads and 2) because hiding these outcomes, just like hiding scientific studies, makes the community look bad. The internet is forever, and for a while, I was grieved to see MDC become an internet laughingstock because of the heavy moderation. It's interesting to me that this is the only part of my post that was responded to.

 

What about having these discussions in Birth and Beyond? How does MDC feel about being able to discuss, honestly, the benefits and risks of home birth so women can be truely informed? No other home birth board does this currently, and I think it would show the community as a whole that we are smart enough and strong enough to be real.

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Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher View Post
 

Removals of threads that were not at the member's request were those that specifically accused and attacked an individual as being responsible, which were necessary removals due to the liability they presented for Mothering - either at our own legal counsel's advice to do so or as a result of receiving a legal communciation to do so. 

 

Why could you not just delete the posts within the thread that accused/named an individual? I know for sure that a thread about a homebirth death was deleted just a couple weeks ago - I was following it. It was the one about the baby Gavin Michael. I do know that one of the last posts in the thread named a specific person as the midwife.

 

Why delete the entire thread? Why not just delete the post that named a person as the midwife, and remind everyone that for liability reasons Mothering can't have that? Deleting the entire thread seemed unnecessary, and I have been wondering why Mothering did that.

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#36 of 60 Old 03-19-2014, 09:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Serenity Now View Post
 

What about having these discussions in Birth and Beyond? How does MDC feel about being able to discuss, honestly, the benefits and risks of home birth so women can be truely informed? No other home birth board does this currently, and I think it would show the community as a whole that we are smart enough and strong enough to be real.

 

I think creating a separate forum to talk about homebirth studies/stats would be a great idea. I'm a very numbers-minded person, and I would love a place where where we could really dig into the numbers of all the new studies that have come out and have a real, active discussion.

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#37 of 60 Old 03-20-2014, 12:10 AM
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I was talking about C-sections before threads were hosted. I remember when the c-section threads (I have been around longer than my username, maybe I'm thinking about 2000 or 2001, but I thought it was more like 2002 or 2003) were allowed to have a weekly thread, and it was because every time someone posted about needing a c-section they were told they didn't need it, and it devolved from there. I also personally read the threads about death or complications that were deleted, and I know in at least one case the mom did not ask for it to be deleted, because she died. There really is no reason to hash out things that happened 10 years ago. The only reason I brought it up is because 1) someone mentioned how awful it would be to crash c-section threads and 2) because hiding these outcomes, just like hiding scientific studies, makes the community look bad. The internet is forever, and for a while, I was grieved to see MDC become an internet laughingstock because of the heavy moderation. It's interesting to me that this is the only part of my post that was responded to.

 

What about having these discussions in Birth and Beyond? How does MDC feel about being able to discuss, honestly, the benefits and risks of home birth so women can be truely informed? No other home birth board does this currently, and I think it would show the community as a whole that we are smart enough and strong enough to be real.

Back in 2000-2001 we were a very, very small community - 2000-3000 members. I don't doubt there were posts of criticism of cesarean birth choices. There will always be people who choose to criticize and find fault, no matter where the truth lies. We can only do our best to try to create a comfortable environment for our community but also in keeping with Mothering's purpose on the web. Our purpose has never been to provide a space to advocate for unnecessary medical interventions and surely some of the flame wars that occurred were because the discussions were along those lines. I think you will still find some discussions occurring from time to time where members say a c-section was not needed and the threads turns tense. We do our best to defuse and redirect such discussions.

 

Removal of a thread doesn't have to be at the request of the member. In some cases we have removed threads at the request of the family or a close friend. Thread removal depends on the situation and posts made to the discussion and why the removal request was made. In such cases we always place more value in honoring the requests and needs of the individual and family. The main point I am trying to make here - which you seem to continue to imply otherwise - is that we do not come into the forum and delete threads about homebirth complications and death to try to cover things up so that our Homebirth forum (or any forum for that mater) is free from reports of such outcomes. That you feel we should keep threads of loss up at the expense of mothers or families who have requested them to be removed is really sad to me. I prefer to deal with accusations such as yours than disrespect such requests due to a sense of entitlement that we uphold a poor outcome for all to read about and feed crossboard feasting on such stories that goes on. I seriously doubt you will find a woman here who is not aware that poor outcomes occur in homebirth. 

 

I don't have to respond to every point you make as I too find it pointless to hash out every single issue. I responded to concerns raised in several posts that I felt were important to address. I'm not here to bicker and drag out every single issue you have with Mothering. I think you have made it clear that this is no longer your community of choice and you are disappointed that we did not and do not handle things as you think they should be handled. I can appreciate your frustration. Mothering has a large community so it is to be expected that some will think we are not doing a good job and will always assume the worst of us rather than giving us the benefit of the doubt. 

 

I personally think posting to Birth and Beyond to discuss research, studies and information about birth practices and safety is just fine. But again, if your main purpose here is try to convince women that homebirth is dangerous then your intentions in posting to this community would be out of line. By saying "show the community as a whole that we are smart enough and strong enough to be real." is rather insulting to many women here and makes it sound like your purpose is to push your truth. If that is your only purpose in posting as a member here, it will not be a valuable or appreciated contribution. If it were from a person who shows a true alliance with Mothering as a community member, who is here as an active, posting member in many areas of the forum and otherwise demonstrating commitment to natural pregnancy, birth and family living choices, it would be completely different. 

 

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Why could you not just delete the posts within the thread that accused/named an individual? I know for sure that a thread about a homebirth death was deleted just a couple weeks ago - I was following it. It was the one about the baby Gavin Michael. I do know that one of the last posts in the thread named a specific person as the midwife.

 

Why delete the entire thread? Why not just delete the post that named a person as the midwife, and remind everyone that for liability reasons Mothering can't have that? Deleting the entire thread seemed unnecessary, and I have been wondering why Mothering did that.

 

I'm really not sure without reading the discussion myself and looking at the moderator notes. I cannot find a thread in Homebirth that was deleted in the past few weeks. If it was posted in another forum, let me know where and I'd be more than happy to look at it and respond to your question. 

 

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I think creating a separate forum to talk about homebirth studies/stats would be a great idea. I'm a very numbers-minded person, and I would love a place where where we could really dig into the numbers of all the new studies that have come out and have a real, active discussion.

 

I don't think we need a separate forum for that purpose. We can host it in Birth and Beyond and see how things go.


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#38 of 60 Old 03-20-2014, 02:44 PM
 
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I'm really not sure without reading the discussion myself and looking at the moderator notes. I cannot find a thread in Homebirth that was deleted in the past few weeks. If it was posted in another forum, let me know where and I'd be more than happy to look at it and respond to your question. 

 

It was removed, and it was in Homebirth. It would have been in the last month.

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#39 of 60 Old 03-20-2014, 09:42 PM
 
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I don't think we need a separate forum for that purpose. We can host it in Birth and Beyond and see how things go.

 

I think it would be beneficial. There are a lot of studies - looking at various aspects of home birth - and it would be easier to discuss each one in its own thread. All of them in one giant thread which would get super long, weighed down, and confusing. For example, the Cornell study that came out about a month ago, and the recommendations about water births that AAP and ACOG just released this week - should those be discussed on the same thread? They're about completely different things. They're both relating to home birth, but they're about completely separate parts of home birth, have completely different people involved, and each would be better discussed in their own thread.

 

If people aren't happy with these topics being discussed here in the homebirth forum, it would be good to have another homebirth forum where we could talk specifically about homebirth related studies and official recommendations. Just like how the vaccination discussions are broken up into a couple forums. If you put these very homebirth-y topics into the big "Birth and Beyond" forum they would get lost in the general stuff. People looking specifically for homebirth-related discussions would probably miss them. It would make more sense for all of them to be in one dedicated place.

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#40 of 60 Old 03-21-2014, 05:17 AM
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It was removed, and it was in Homebirth. It would have been in the last month.

 

I think you are referring to the thread about Jan Tritten. That thread did not give the name of the infant. It was placed to make accusations against a midwife and others too. We do not host such accusations - at all. They are clearly a legal liability which I think everyone here can appreciate. The only time we can host something of the nature of that discussion is when it is a public statement of criminal charge or court decision, with the details of the case a matter of public record. Without that it is pure hearsay, assumption, and accusation.  

 

You asked:

Originally Posted by Pillowy View Post

Why could you not just delete the posts within the thread that accused/named an individual? I know for sure that a thread about a homebirth death was deleted just a couple weeks ago - I was following it. It was the one about the baby Gavin Michael. I do know that one of the last posts in the thread named a specific person as the midwife.

 

Why delete the entire thread? Why not just delete the post that named a person as the midwife, and remind everyone that for liability reasons Mothering can't have that? Deleting the entire thread seemed unnecessary, and I have been wondering why Mothering did that.

 

The thread title had the midwife's name in it, the vast majority of the posts named midwives and made claims of malpractice, malicious involvement, and other claims against them. To remove the posts that named anyone or made some sort of claim or accusation against someone would have meant removing all but maybe three posts, leaving the entire discussion incomprehensible. It made much more sense to remove the thread, especially considering the topic was one we would not host anyway due to unestablished claims and accusations being the core of the discussion. For the same reason we no longer host negative reviews of practitioners. It is a huge liability concern.  

 

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I think it would be beneficial. There are a lot of studies - looking at various aspects of home birth - and it would be easier to discuss each one in its own thread. All of them in one giant thread which would get super long, weighed down, and confusing. For example, the Cornell study that came out about a month ago, and the recommendations about water births that AAP and ACOG just released this week - should those be discussed on the same thread? They're about completely different things. They're both relating to home birth, but they're about completely separate parts of home birth, have completely different people involved, and each would be better discussed in their own thread.

 

If people aren't happy with these topics being discussed here in the homebirth forum, it would be good to have another homebirth forum where we could talk specifically about homebirth related studies and official recommendations. Just like how the vaccination discussions are broken up into a couple forums. If you put these very homebirth-y topics into the big "Birth and Beyond" forum they would get lost in the general stuff. People looking specifically for homebirth-related discussions would probably miss them. It would make more sense for all of them to be in one dedicated place.

 

I am assuming you want to look not only at studies and stats showing risks of homebirth but also the positive sides as well as that of hospital birth, cesarean section, ultrasound and so on. Each topic can be discussed in separate threads. Just create a new thread for each new topic. No need to put everything in one single thread as "Studies and Stats". Let's start with what I said - post such discussions to the Birth and Beyond forum with an appropriate title for the subject. We'll see how it goes and make a decision later about the need for a new forum to host such discussions. 


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Fellow HB parent here!  I want to add to the discussion that we members play a big role in the culture of the forum. I totally sympathize with wanting to discuss HB with my fellow HB families and professionals but I also think we are just as responsible for the types of discussion that go on here. Over the years at Mothering I have seen forums change and evolve because of member participation. Asking non-HB members to continue their discussions in the Birth & Beyond forum is only one part of the solution to improving the culture here. 
 
I think we can all understand where some of the criticism of the HB discussion come from. If we have active threads about birth pools or insurance reimbursement but none of our members are posting important global news relevant to the topic of HB, yea, we get non-HB members joining to fill in the gaps.  
 
So, there is the totally understandable desire to discuss the issue of HB with like-minded members but then our HB members have some responsibility to build important and relevant discussions as well. 
 
My two cents. :love

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#42 of 60 Old 03-21-2014, 12:37 PM
 
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Hang on, are you saying I have a responsibility to talk about something other than birth pools, insurance, my own experience, supporting women in all their worries and questions. . . Because I should be taking about "important global news"?
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Well, no, not exactly. But I am saying that this forum (and every other forum on Mothering) is driven by member participation. What you (Salr) want and what I want from the HB forum may be slightly different than what the next HB member wants. Mothering policy can do some to gently shape the forum but beyond that it's up to us to make the forum what we want it to be.  


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#44 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 08:40 AM
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I think you are referring to the thread about Jan Tritten. That thread did not give the name of the infant. It was placed to make accusations against a midwife and others too. We do not host such accusations - at all. They are clearly a legal liability which I think everyone here can appreciate... It is a huge liability concern.  

 

I don't "appreciate" your "clear legal liability," since there is none here.  The law in the United States could not be clearer: an internet forum has no liability for libelous or defamatory statements made by third parties.  Please see section 230 of the 1996 Communications Decency Act. Nor is there any threat that MDC could be forced to pay a judgement issued by a foreign court, since the SPEECH Act of 2010 prevents US courts from enforcing foreign libel judgements concerning statements that would not be libelous under United States law (so-called "libel tourism").  As long as the operators of the site are not themselves making defamatory or libelous statements, they have no liability.

 

In any case, this is all irrelevant, since a truthful statement can never be treated as libel or defamation under American law.  There is zero doubt that Jan Tritten and her enlightened colleagues don't know how dangerous it is for there to be zero amniotic fluid.  This was all documented on her publicly accessible Facebook page.  Nor is there any real doubt that Christie Collins was the midwife responsible for this baby's death.  Are we seriously supposed to believe that she's allowing such a serious false claim to stand unchallenged on multiple websites without uttering a peep?

 

So this isn't even remotely a legal issue, but an ethical one.  And it couldn't be clearer that you're more concerned with protecting the reputations of incompetent and ignorant practitioners than you are with babies needlessly dying.  You immediately delete references to the shocking ignorance and incompetence of supposedly respected midwives and yet you have no problem allowing posts to remain on the site and in the archives that present extraordinarily dangerous and inaccurate advice.  How many posts are included in the archives that refer to breech as "a variation of normal?"  How many posts tell women that putting garlic in their vagina will prevent the transmission of GBS?

 

You have absolutely no problem allowing these posts to stand by pointing to your disclaimer that no "medical advice" is given here, despite the fact that it's obvious to anyone with two working brain cells that this is precisely what goes on here.  

 

I really don't know what I can say about a person who is more concerned about protecting the reputation of incompetent providers than she is about disseminating information that has and will continue to cause the deaths of babies.  I can only hope that if you actually understood what you are doing here you'd be deeply ashamed.

 

That's all for now.  Sorry for "trolling," by which I mean presenting accurate information.  

 

Namaste.  

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#45 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 02:03 PM
 
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Stillappalled, just remember that Mothering, the paper magazine, endorsed HIV denialism.

 

If you keep that fact in mind, some of the discussions and moderating decisions that go around on the forum become much less unexpected/disappointing.


I support homebirth that meets the qualifications set forth in the AAP's 2013 policy on homebirth.

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#46 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 02:20 PM
 
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Stillappalled, just remember that Mothering, the paper magazine, endorsed HIV denialism.

If you keep that fact in mind, some of the discussions and moderating decisions that go around on the forum become much less unexpected/disappointing.
What issue, please? I've read everyone from about 2005 to when it folded & I don't remember any such thing. I'm quite interested.

Sus

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#47 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 03:17 PM
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It would appear that the reference is to this cover story, which profiled Christine Maggiore. Ms. Maggiore was a very, very, very stupid woman who believed that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.  She refused to take drugs that could have prevented transmission of the virus to her daughter, who died at the age of three and a half.  Maggiore herself died at 52 from... prepare to be shocked... complications from AIDS.

 

Please note that I'm not calling Maggiore stupid in order to attack her.  I'm calling her that because the alternative is to call her a heartless evil witch who didn't care if the child who depended on her died.  And that's the choice we're so often presented with here: stupid or evil.  The optimist in me likes to think that stupidity is more often the explanation than evil.  

 

 

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#48 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 03:21 PM
 
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What issue, please? I've read everyone from about 2005 to when it folded & I don't remember any such thing. I'm quite interested.

Sus

 

I think this is what she was talking about. 

 

 

A link to one of the articles in this issue http://www.mothering.com/community/a/molecular-miscarriage-is-the-hiv-theory-a-tragic-mistake


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#49 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 03:23 PM
 
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@stillappalled  Jinx.....


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
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#50 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 03:31 PM
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@stillappalled  Jinx.....

 

Oh, don't worry.  Pretty soon my comments will disappear and then there'll be no jinx.

 

By the way, you can read the articles published in that issue at this link: http://healtoronto.com/mothering.html

 

I just did, and now I really think I might throw up.  But clearly the wise, wise women at the helm of Mothering learned from their egregious errors and stopped trusting quacks and charlatans who haven't the slightest idea of what they are talking about...

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#51 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 03:38 PM
 
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Interesting.  Dr. Jay Gordon (very outspoken and critical of vaccines) was one of her daughter's physicians and this is what he is quoted as saying about it :

 

"Dr. Jay Gordon, a Santa Monica pediatrician who had treated Eliza Jane since she was a year old, said he should have demanded that she be tested for human immunodeficiency virus when, 11 days before she died, Maggiore brought her in with an apparent ear infection.

“It’s possible that the whole situation could have been changed if one of the doctors involved – one of the three doctors involved – had intervened,” said Gordon, who himself acknowledges that HIV causes AIDS. “It’s hindsight, Monday-morning quarterbacking, whatever you want to call it. Do I think I’m blameless in this? No, I’m not blameless.”


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#52 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 03:56 PM
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It's really incredible how closely the articles mirror the current idiocy.

 

An overriding concern for the "experience of childbirth?" Check.  "If Dana had conceived her child just one month earlier, she might have had the birth experience she had always imagined" (i.e. she might have managed to give birth without doing anything whatsoever to avoid infecting her child with HIV).

 

Approving reference to crackpot scientist and/or physician who believes something ridiculous?  Check.  See the multiple references to Peter Duesberg in this article: http://healtoronto.com/mothering1001c.html.  

 

A bizarre insistence on fetishizing breastfeeding above all else? Check. "The scientific literature varies on the possible risk of transmitting HIV during breastfeeding, from 5 percent to 29 percent. UNAIDS itself suggests that the risk of infection from breastfeeding is around 15 percent, which means that 85 percent of infants born to HIV-positive mothers are not infected through breastfeeding."  Oh, only 15% of them get HIV!  Great!  And remember, no one is really sure that HIV even causes AIDS in the first place, right?

 

An insinuation that the fact that a given test has a less than 100% accuracy rate means that it's reasonable to just ignore the test? Check.  "Dana had Epstein-Barr virus, which is known to create false positives on certain HIV tests. She had remained healthy without medication, and she felt the HIV she supposedly carried might never actually make her sick."  

 

Ridiculous "No, we're not giving horrendous medical advice but we clearly are" logic?  Check.  "The only way to avoid such Orwellian scenarios, many HIV-positive parents feel, is to go underground. They decline tests in 48 states where that is still allowable, look for the rare midwife knowledgeable about the reasons why a person would test HIV-positive but still be healthy, buy the AZT their doctors prescribe and flush it down the toilet, and stock formula and bottles in their cabinets while breastfeeding on he sly."  Christ, I just love it: "the rare midwife knowledgable enough..."  Clearly a genius on the level of Lisa "Hands off the breech!  Just let the baby die!" Barrett.

 

Have these idiots learned anything?  Anything at all?

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#53 of 60 Old 03-23-2014, 07:14 PM
 
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I knew Christine and her family. They were kind people. I knew that little girl. Once, she asked me to stay and have dinner with her while riding her tricycle through the kitchen. Christine loved her. Everyone did.

I don't necessarily agree with what Christine believed, but I knew her as a good person.

You see, behind every username and magazine story there are ACTUAL PEOPLE. Who, regardless of your incessant need to argue and be right, are actually out there living and suffering and just being human.

On behalf of the real people out there who aren't only here to hear themselves speak and be "right", I would like to ask some "members" here to please shut the hell up. People are trying to do the best they can in a cruel world and get a tiny bit of support where they can and you're GETTING IN THE WAY.

The end.

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#54 of 60 Old 03-24-2014, 09:02 AM
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I knew Christine and her family. They were kind people. I knew that little girl. Once, she asked me to stay and have dinner with her while riding her tricycle through the kitchen. Christine loved her. Everyone did.

I don't necessarily agree with what Christine believed, but I knew her as a good person.

You see, behind every username and magazine story there are ACTUAL PEOPLE. Who, regardless of your incessant need to argue and be right, are actually out there living and suffering and just being human.

On behalf of the real people out there who aren't only here to hear themselves speak and be "right", I would like to ask some "members" here to please shut the hell up. People are trying to do the best they can in a cruel world and get a tiny bit of support where they can and you're GETTING IN THE WAY.

The end.

OF COURSE they're actual people.  If they weren't actual people, their preventable deaths wouldn't bother me in the least.  It's precisely the fact that an adorable little girl who rode her tricycle through the kitchen died at such a young age due to her mother's stupidity that makes this so tragic and so completely inexcusable.

 

I honestly can't believe that you witnessed your friend's obstinate stupidity cause both her and her child's death and you still want "support."

 

Did you learn nothing?  The reason why that little girl died is because she had "supportive" friends like you who agreed to disagree rather than pleading with her to get her daughter the help she needed.  It's because she had negligent physicians like Dr. Gordon who "supported" her insane decisions and then shrugged their shoulders and went on to give other people idiotic advice about vaccines.

 

If your friend read some crackpot blog and decided that she ought to inject her daughter with heroin, would you "support" that?  If she "did her research" and came to the conclusion that her daughter only needed 100 calories a day, would you also "support" her in that?

 

You're beyond insane.  Fortunately for you, this conversation will soon be deleted.  Just like they delete "non-supportive" threads on anorexia support forums. 

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#55 of 60 Old 03-24-2014, 09:30 AM
 
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I haven't said what my relationship with Christine was, nor have I said what I had/hadn't said to her about her beliefs. Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

But mainly you.

I'm sorry to the mods and to Cynthia. I know what I'm saying is totally inappropriate. It's just that I can't help it this time.

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#56 of 60 Old 03-24-2014, 12:45 PM
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I don't "appreciate" your "clear legal liability," since there is none here.  The law in the United States could not be clearer: an internet forum has no liability for libelous or defamatory statements made by third parties.  Please see section 230 of the 1996 Communications Decency Act. Nor is there any threat that MDC could be forced to pay a judgement issued by a foreign court, since the SPEECH Act of 2010 prevents US courts from enforcing foreign libel judgements concerning statements that would not be libelous under United States law (so-called "libel tourism").  As long as the operators of the site are not themselves making defamatory or libelous statements, they have no liability.

 

....That's all for now.  Sorry for "trolling," by which I mean presenting accurate information.  

 

Namaste.  

 

Mothering has legal counsel that tells us otherwise. 

 

It has become quite obvious that your "trolling" intention here is to attack, insult, accuse, defame, and violate our rules and guidelines. You have already been removed from this forum under your first username. Your new username demonstrates your continued behavior is your only aim here. It is not welcome and will not be tolerated.

 

The same goes to you BuzzBuzz. You have a history here in Homebirth that does not present you as a member interested in supporting homebirth. Your posts are not welcome here either. 

 
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Oh, don't worry.  Pretty soon my comments will disappear and then there'll be no jinx.

 

By the way, you can read the articles published in that issue at this link: http://healtoronto.com/mothering.html

 

I just did, and now I really think I might throw up.  But clearly the wise, wise women at the helm of Mothering learned from their egregious errors and stopped trusting quacks and charlatans who haven't the slightest idea of what they are talking about...

{C}

 

There are many discussions in the forums about Christine and her family. You might even find some posts from Peggy, offering her thoughts on it all. You are hashing out old history simply to try to find something to attack Mothering. Just go back and read the old discussions. Throwing it all out here again in this discussion just shows your real intent here and it's not welcome and won't be tolerated.  So don't worry. I like for the true colors of people to show for those reading. We won't be deleting anything except you.

 

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I haven't said what my relationship with Christine was, nor have I said what I had/hadn't said to her about her beliefs. Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

But mainly you.

I'm sorry to the mods and to Cynthia. I know what I'm saying is totally inappropriate. It's just that I can't help it this time.

 

Well said. I totally agree. :thumb

 

middlemama, if you are still reading I do apologize to you for allowing your thread to be hijacked by these posters. I really should have stopped it a long time ago and made sure you got the help you posted for. Thank you for bearing with it all, responding so eloquently despite the attacks and for bringing up the issue of a need for support guidelines. We have those now so feel free to report anything you see that would be in violation of those guidelines.


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#57 of 60 Old 03-24-2014, 01:27 PM
 
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Can I just say as a mother and a human being how disappointing I find your "moderating"? I have no vested interest in supporting or attacking homebirth, but I do believe every woman should have the information she needs to make the best decisions possible for her body, her baby, her pregnancy. Women come to this forum for information. When you only allow one side of any issue to be presented you are denying these women the ability to make a truly informed decision. Censorship (with exceptions for truly abusive speech, not just dissent) should have no part in an intelligent, thoughtful discussion in this day and age. 

 

No choice is perfect in this world. People will have different viewpoints and opinions, but civilized people can handle debate and disagreement with mutual respect. The OP is passionate in her views, but so what? Maybe her information will be exactly what some other woman needs to read. I also wonder about the wisdom of allowing what appears to be medical advice to be given (some of it poor quality or even potentially dangerous) all over the forum, but not allowing sincere safety concerns to be discussed. I'd be more concerned about potential liability in the event that someone is harmed because of following bad advice they got here than I would about discussing the generalities of a situation that is public record and actually has a lot of relevance to anyone discussing the issues surrounding home birth and midwifery. Are you "supporting" home birth or simply censoring away all negative information? Censorship has a long, ugly history. I don't know why you'd want to ally yourself with its practitioners. 

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#58 of 60 Old 03-24-2014, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Cynthia, I am glad things have went the way they went. For me they showed that what I saw was truly happening and I wasn't just imagining it, or being overly sensitive.

 

It isn't about censoring....if one is TRULY searching for information with which to make choices there are many places to find copious amounts of it. Mothering shouldn't be THE only place a person comes, if it is then that is no fault of Mothering or the people here. It then becomes the persons responsibility to sort through that information gathered and make THEIR choices for THEIR life. There is no desire for harm to come to those who CHOOSE something the rest of us would not choose. However, my place of support shouldn't be destroyed because of the FEW. The majority of women who choose home birth or other alternative medical avenues do so with the utmost care and consideration for their families. I shouldn't be berated in one of the few places I can find like mindedness for the few who make uneducated choices, without doing their due diligence, or consulting more than one source.

 

And the bottom line, for me, in my opinion is what one woman or family chooses for their life is THEIR choice. It isn't for me or the mainstream or a majority group of the outliers to decide or judge, no matter how stupid I may think that person is. That person lives (or maybe even dies) with the consequences of their choice don't they? Not me. If I want my parental and lifestyle choices and decisions respected I know I have to allow the next woman the same, no matter how insane I may think she is. When I remove a right from another woman, I remove it from myself as well....and THAT also has a very ugly history.

 

Conflicting opinions here are not what we were discussing when this thread began. When it began the topic was people who come here specifically and only to constantly put the hammer down on the choice to home birth. When you are constantly saying....I have nothing against it BUT....and you NEVER have a single good story or positive thing to say about it, you are not here to provide information you are here to undermine and tear down. The word "BUT" is called the big eraser. When you insert BUT into a sentence what you are saying is "forget what I just said, this is what I really mean". I support home birth, forget that though because what I really mean is: it is dangerous etc etc. Folks who come here to have in depth conversation in support of home birth may very well have varying degrees of ideology and opinion. Nothing wrong with that, their INTENT isn't ill will toward a decision.

 

I learn new things here every day. And you know what I do after I read them? I go double check the info. THAT IS MY JOB. Then I make a decision about how I feel about that information based on the information I gathered. THAT IS MY JOB. I don't come back here and chew someone up one side and down the other for providing the information if I decided not to agree with it. I may present an alternate point of view or perspective, but I am not here to tear down home birth. THAT is what the original discussion and concern was about. Not a desire to have a place censored form anything bad.  The proposition that the forum might provide a member only area was only to maybe separate those who want to debate and hash out with those who have already done all their decision making and would just like to discuss home birth in peace without this constant flag being waived in their face that people disagree with their choice. We know people disagree with us. We are only 1% of the births in the United States. The intent was NOT censorship or to willfully misguide anyone.

 

Support and info are a dividing place. If you are looking for information you have not decided, if you are looking for support you did your decision making and now seek others who decided the same to converse and carry on with. The two are not necessarily synonymous.

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#59 of 60 Old 03-24-2014, 02:29 PM
 
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Thanks Cynthia for informing us about the HIV/AIDS discussion in other parts of the forum.  I know your job moderating these forums isn't easy! 

 

It's my understanding that except for a few issues (circumcision, crying it out, spanking) Mothering doesn't hold any official positions on issues, but instead supports informed consent. Which is why there is a vaccine debate forum.   Is this still correct? Is there an official position on birth or homebirth? 

 

I was reading one of the HIV threads and saw this response from Peggy, and it says in part:  " I do not nor does Mothering have a formal position on AIDS or HIV, any more than we have an official position on birth, vaccinations or any other subject. Our position is one of informed consent on all issues. Parents deserve ALL information on which to make decisions and I support parents in making their own choices. "  Bolding mine.    

 

Is there a reason there can't be a "Homebirth Discussion" forum and a "Homebirth Support" forum?   I don't see how only allowing one Homebith forum and then also only really allowing supportive type information is making sure parents have "ALL information on which to make decisions" like Peggy stated in my previous quote.  

 

Do you disagree? 

 

Here's a link to the post where I got Peggy's quote.  http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1355997/does-mothering-endorse-hiv-aids-denialism/60


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#60 of 60 Old 03-25-2014, 02:35 AM
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Rana Sylvestris, I think middlemamma's response to your post is far superior to what I would have offered. Thank you both for sharing your input and opinions. 

 

Posts of birth information and safety discussions can go to the Birth and Beyond forum and should be just fine there for anyone to read and participate in, with due observance of our usual posting guidelines. 


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