Homebirthing Moms 2005 - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How about a thread for those of us planning a home birth for early next year?

We can get to know each other, compare experiences and strategies, and eventually get excited about each others' births. There's a great thread full of homebirthing moms who just gave birth or are about to. We should have one for those of us in the planning stages!

For introductions, who are you?
where are you?
how many children do you have already?
why did you choose home birth?

I'm Jessica, in Missouri, with no children yet, choosing home birth because hospitals are for sick people. I want a happy baby, happy parents, and a good bonding experience out of my birth.

Zonapellucida, I've seen you on the Jan boards. And there is one post on the homebirthing mama friends from someone looking for a group to join. Let's start one!
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#2 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 03:12 PM
 
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Hi, I'll be back when I know for sure I'm having a hb! I just wanted to keep track of this thread. :-)
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#3 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Pam, what is influencing your decision? Is Nova Scotia as hb friendly as some of the other provinces?
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#4 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 03:33 PM
 
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We're planning a HB fir #2 in April. DD was a hospital birth & I would've liked to have her at home but both DH and I were shy about not having any medical personnel on hand if something were to go wrong , and also about the fact that insurance usually doesn't cover homebirth.

This time around, we know better about what usually causes birth complications (hint: it ain't the birting woman or the baby) and we're more comfortable with the idea of paying for the birth out of pocket. Very worth the money.

So, to answer the rest of the questions, I'm Jess, and I live in MN. I'd be most comfortable laboring and birthing at home, no need to take a car ride in labor, no scenery changes to mess with/slow down my labor. No nurses or student midwives to mismeasure my cervix and break my water too early. No pitocin, IVs, or catheters. Shall I go on?

Home is the place where I'm most comfortable and the place where I should birth my babies. Hospitals are for sick people, as the OP said.
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#5 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 03:45 PM
 
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My big thing is the money. There are currently 4 midwives in my province, I think. Right now we are renting, and we decided to buy a cheap house to save money (our mortgage will be far less than rent!). I said if we were doing that, part of the savings I'd want to put toward hb. We haven't finalized the house deal yet, and I am not certain how much *extra* money there will really be, so I am hesitant to actually go to the midwife and sign up for care. We have a lot of debt that we need to get down, and dh will actually be further from work, and I'll be further from everything. Anyway, that's getting OT. It's whether we can afford it. I'm toying with the idea of uc, but I don't want to do it just b/c we can't afford a mw.
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#6 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 03:52 PM
 
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Hello!

I'm Kash, and we're planning a hb for #2 in March. Dd was a hospital birth for several reasons, but the main one was that we were in a living situation (7th floor of an apartment building whose fire alarms didn't always work) that I knew would not be conducive to a good birth. So we're excited to be in a house now and able to do this!

Dd's birth further convinced me I wanted a homebirth. Not because hers was horrible - by most standards, I had a great hospital birth. But because I knew there were things I wanted changed or different, and had no control over. Also, we knew this time we wanted to be even less interventionist (we're avoiding all u/s exposure, for example) and that it would be easier in a homebirth situation.

Kash, homeschooling mommy to Gillian (8/5/00) and Jacob (3/23/05)
and Brigid Eleanor (11/20/08)
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#7 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hello Jess! I'll be Jessica, then, since there's two of us with the same real name already. Is Kate your middle name or your daughter's name?

Pam, sucks that it's a money question. How much does it cost up there? I'm feeling almost lucky that direct-entry midwives are illegal here, because of the cost factor. The midwives who practice anyway don't have to maintain licenses or insurance. My birth will only cost $1500. Of course insurance covers none of that, but that means they have no influence over the midwife's practice. I'm grateful that we have two solid incomes, so we didn't have to blink at that amount.

Also, congrats on buying the house, or being in the process. Do you like the house a lot?

Kash, hello! hurray that you get the birth you want this time. Out of curiosity, what were the little things in the hospital that bugged you? I know in the hospital here we'd be unable to adjust the temperature, and they have these two big spotlights that focus on the bed at crotch-level. That's just creepy.

Jessica
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#8 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 04:50 PM
 
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T
My middle name is Katherine. My username is what my aunt called me when I was a kid. I usually go by Jess, as I feel it fits my personality better than Jessica. But you should have us address you by whatever name you prefer. If you go by Jess everywhere, then go by that here. We can handle it, LOL. :LOL
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#9 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 05:09 PM
 
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I think I can get one for as low as $1000, which is $CAN, so that's pretty good. I actually just got an email from the mw asking about meeting up, so maybe I'll have good news soon.
The house is smaller than our apt, but it's a century style farmhouse in the country with 2 acres, partly wooded, and a yard of our own.

Since I'm pretty much part of the thread anyway, I'll answer the questions!


I'm Pam, in Nova Scotia, with one dd, Abigail
why did you choose home birth?
I was induced at 39 weeks with dd, after my water broke and contrax didn't catch up. I made them wait for more than 48 hours, but I still wonder if it was necessary, as the water didn't gush, just trickled, so maybe it might've repaired? Anyway, I was on pit. by IV and had an intense 5 hours of labour, completely med-free (expect for the pit). Our hospital isn't so bad, as it is a maternity, women's and children's hospital, and most of the stuff I made a point of putting in my birth plan was standard procedure. Each birthing room has a cd player, a tub, birthing balls, bars, etc. so I almost feel bad asking for an even better birth, but I am. It was the stay after birth that got me. My doc wanted me in for the full 48 hours to make sure bf was working out (admirable, really), but my ff'ing roomate stayed up really late watching loud, obnoxious shows like Jerry Springer (she always had her baby sent out at night, though rooming in is the norm). Dh had a cot next to me, dd slept in a plastic bassinet (yuck!). We're cosleeping from the start this time, those arrangements just won't work. Then there's the food: I gave them my list of food allergies, but on the last day, one of the items showed up on my food tray. I complained to more than one level, but never heard about it. It was peanut butter, which I can eat now, but at the time it freaked me out that they would make such a mistake.
With this birth, I want to be in charge, I want to be relaxed, I want to have it my way without fighting. We're going further aginst the grain this time: delayed cord clamping, forgoing vit k and eye drops, hypnobirthing (more dedicated this time), candles, chanting/drumming (most likely on CD), Elimination Communication from birth.

Hope to stick around on this thread! I just can't see me voluntarily going to the hospital!
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#10 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks
I'm Jessica when I introduce myself, because my last name is one syllable. But to my friends I'm "Jess," too. To my grandmother, I'll always be Jessica Joy. So whatever!
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#11 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 05:45 PM
 
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I'm Sarah and am 19 weeks along, due Jan 5, and having a homebirth with a CNM whom I just adore.

This is our second baby, our daughter Abigail is 19 months old. She will turn 2 two days before my due date.

This is my first HB, Abby was born in a hospital, as I just did not know HB was an option. Thankfully, I do now!

We are planning a water birth, and I am renting the spa in a box from our MW's apprentice.

Is anyone else SO excited for labor...every one I know thinks I am nuts! I just can't wait to do things my way this time! No hospital bed, no moniter strapped to my body, and laboring in my own home, it is just heavenly to me!
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#12 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 05:52 PM
 
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Hi , I'm Joy... Thanks for starting the thread

We're planning a homebirth w/our first baby, in late January, early Feb.. whenever said baby arrives. (I think I'm due Feb 11, midwife thinks Feb 4, which means normal is anytime from Jan 8 - March 1.... lol)

Why - basically, i can't think of a *good* reason not to. All the reasons point to staying at home - my germ zone, my control (things like induction), not having to fight for my rights... etc etc... food at the hospital sucks, i can control who is in the room.... blah blah blah.

I also am excited for labor. We will probably do waterbirth of some form....

edited to add... I'm in Colorado springs, USA
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#13 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, yes! I am excited about labor too! After reading Ina May's Guide to Childbirth, and now working on Spiritual Midwifery, I can't wait to see what it will be like. No one here understands that. I'm so glad y'all do!

Joy, what does your screen name mean? I keep reading at as "Witchy subscriber database" because at work, HLR is the name of the component of cellular networks that stores subscriber information.

Jessica
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#14 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 10:09 PM
 
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Jessica,

Thats just funny. My screen name is Witchy Healer without the vowels. I'm both pagan and a Reiki master, so it fit.
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#15 of 163 Old 08-11-2004, 10:33 PM
 
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Jessica - there wasn't good communication in the hospital, for starters. I was at a hospital that allowed waterbirth (if I wanted it, which as it turns out, I definitely did NOT, lol!) but when I was in the tub earlier on, 6 cm or so, the nurse kept urging me to get out so she could check me because 'after all, we don't want you having this baby in the tub!' The nurse in general was horrible, and no one recognised I was getting dehydrated. The nurse that came on just as dd was born was wonderful but unfortunately it was literally just as dd was born - shift change was officially at 8 am and dd was born at 8 am on the nose.

Then afterwards, there were so many routines and procedures - and we were lucky, our hospital didn't have a well-baby nursery, so rooming-in was required! They gave us a hard time about dd not nursing 10 minutes on each side (she was *gasp* nursing just 8 on each side), and making noises about testing her blood glucose... so I started lying on the little sheet where you keep track of that.

Oh, yes, my favourite moment - soon after we got to the room, I decided to walk around the halls. The nurse came running up to me - 'you can't go for a walk without telling me!' There was a similar incident after the birth - I was walking down the hall and holding dd in my arms, which was apparently a big no-no.

Books - I love Ina May Gaskin's books. I like the Bradley book for the 'technical info' (not Dr. Bradley's book, the one by Susan McCutcheon) and it was great for dh to read. I'm hoping to be able to take a Birthing From Within class this time, mainly because I think it'd be great fun.

I have a dirty little secret to confess, too... I don't like most of the Dr. Sears books. :

Kash, homeschooling mommy to Gillian (8/5/00) and Jacob (3/23/05)
and Brigid Eleanor (11/20/08)
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#16 of 163 Old 08-12-2004, 01:03 AM
 
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I am Jes ... wahmama to Sahara who is 2 1/2 this month ... she was born at home

We live in beautiful bc where midwives are fortunately (and unfortunately ...it's a LONG story) covered under our provincial medical insurance

Sahara is my first and only child.

I chose homebirth because it was normal to me (my siblings were born at home and I got to watch) ... I actually never thought of doing it any other way. However DH chose homebirth because I bombarded him with statistics and facts regarding the safety of homebirth (and never really gave him a choice even though his mainstream family pestered and nattered at him about it) ... and because he met with our midwife and trusted her (she was the mw that delivered my youngest brother).

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#17 of 163 Old 08-12-2004, 01:33 AM
 
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Hi, just saw from the Jan 2005 due date club that there is a homebirth thread going for those of us having babies at home in early part of next year. I am happy to have a forum for homebirth- I was on another list on the web and all my posts resulted in eerie silence from the women who seemed to be obssessed with fast food cravings and their next ultrasound. I felt a bit out of place.

I am excited to be having my first baby next year....well sort of my first. I am a Florida Licensed homebirth midwife (and I own a birth center) so I've helped at nearly 200 births, but this will be the first time I "deliver" a baby!

I have an obvious interest in home birth, it's my life's passion, and am having a great time joking with my clients when they wonder who will be my midwife that I'll just go to the hospital and get drugs all the way! ! It's been so fun to tell folks the midwife is pregnant, but in forums like this I try to keep my mouth shut about the midwife-y stuff : , and just try to be a mom having a first baby experience. At first i was not even mentioning I am a midwife on any of my lists, cause I just want to be pregnant, and get out of my role as adviser that I am in all day. It's weird to be an expert on parts of this, yet so new to the body experience. I am trying to get out of my head and into my heart about it. Though, it does help knowing which books are the best for each stage, and having a lending library of 300 or more pregnancy books at my finger tips!

The one tip I have learned by watching many birthing women is this- tell 'em all you are due later than you are. I told my family I am due "mid-Feb" since I anticipate going overdue since It's my first, but I am actually due Jan 28th. I figure the phone will ring off the hook starting Jan 1 if I don't prep them!

I am 15 1/2 weeks now. I work with a great midwife partner, and my two best friends are midwives, and will be there for me and my husband. One of my friends will fill in for me after I have the baby.

Also, I have been married a year and a half to an awesome man who, when we first met, responded to the info that I am a midwife by promptly telling me his birth story and how he thought it influenced who he is. I never met a man who KNEW his birth story, let alone had reflected on it and felt it was a deep part of who he is, so it was love at first sight- we actually met at the beach looking at stars....
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#18 of 163 Old 08-12-2004, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Heidi, wow, that is sooo romantic. So, what was his birth story, and how did he influence who he is? Fascinating. When did you get married? I've been married about a year and a half, too. And I'm due the same time you are: Jan 29th but my feeling is it'll be closer to Valentine's Day.

I agree about the other boards and the women obsessing about the ultrasound. Once we decided not to have the ultrasound, I've been completely at peace with not knowing the gender. The other chicks are dying to find out. From their posts, it sounds like they're rolling around on the floor, writhing from the suspense.

Saharamama (I wanted to write bahamamama, ha ha, too long without drinking), wow, now we have a Jess, a Jessi, and a Jessica! Amaaazing. When did you get your :bfp? I read an article that said BC had a few kinds of midwives, licensed and unlicensed, with the unlicensed ones having more freedom. The unlicensed ones (they were called something else, like "birth helpers" ?) sounded really good. Do you have to go with one of the licensed, nurse-like ones?

Kash, those nurses do sound annoying. Some of them really like to be in charge. That was a big reason I wanted to be at home - no people pestering me. I'll tell them all to buzz off. What don't you like about the Sears books? I've only read The Birth Book. It seemed like the most middle-of-the-road of the pro-homebirth books so far; I'd recommend it to mainstream friends to avoid frightening them.

Witchy Healer Joy, thanks, that makes sense now. I can stop thinking of you as a magical database.

Here goes Thursday. Birth is so much more interesting than work.

Jessica
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#19 of 163 Old 08-12-2004, 02:19 PM
 
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Aloha all,
I'm Karen, also a midwife and due in January homebirthing mom.

I'm having my 3rd baby. All have been planned hb's, but my first was a transport after a loooong labor. It was still a wonderful birth- and I'm sure it was emotional issues tha led to the long labor. My 2nd was a beautiful, (and short) home waterbirth.

My biggest issue now, like Heidi, is making sure I stay OUT of my head during the birth. Too much information isn't always the best when you're trying to birth a baby. I know I don't like having a lot of people around me when I'm in labor, and toyed with the idea of doing the birth ourselves, but I'm so close with my mw teacher/ partner, that I want her there, if only as a reminder to stay IN my body and OUT of the head..... I'm considering doing some hypnosis stuff (though I'm personally weary of "techniques") to help me with this.... not sure yet though.

I have told no one when my due date is. I can't believe how much pestering I'm getting over it- people suck. Baby is due in the middle of Jan, but I'm just saying the end. !st baby was 2 weeks late and the 2nd early, so anythig goes this time.

I have a friend visiting now who's 29 weeks and I'm so jealous of her big belly. My baby's been moving, but it's so little- she's so big and voluptuous... i need to remember this when i'm big and uncomfortable! I wanted this!

Nice to "meet" you all!
Karen
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#20 of 163 Old 08-12-2004, 07:08 PM
 
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I read an article that said BC had a few kinds of midwives, licensed and unlicensed, with the unlicensed ones having more freedom. The unlicensed ones (they were called something else, like "birth helpers" ?) sounded really good. Do you have to go with one of the licensed, nurse-like ones?
The problem isn't that the liscenced midwives are nurse like (though admittedly many of them are) ... it's that in order to keep their registration they have to follow the rules set out for them by the OB's (whether they agree with them 100% or not) ... rules like no homebirths past 42 weeks and no vaginal breeches anywhere at all etc ... for mama's like myself who can expect to carry 44 weekers ...it's just not fair. The unliscenced midwives (birth attendants) on the other hand are illegal so you have to pay out of pocket for them ... add to that that many of them are not provided with any training and there's no way of knowing what type of experience they have. It's a pretty political situation.

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#21 of 163 Old 08-12-2004, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, so BC is not so great after all. Here, the only legal midwives are CNMs and they have to work in the hospital under direct supervision of OBs. That is useless. The hospitals around here mostly don't even let the CNMs deliver babies.

We went the "birth attendant" route. Direct-entry midwives are illegal here, too. So we have to pay out of pocket and find one by word of mouth. The good part is their fees are very reasonable ($1500 total) since they don't have insurance, and no doctors are telling them what to do. I don't have a problem with the lack of licensing; the two I've met have lots of references and experience. I met several women who had home births with my midwife at the Friends of Missouri Midwives meetings. Love those!

Karen, hi! How long have you been a midwife? (before or after your first child's birth?) Hmm, since both you and Heidi recommend fibbing about the due date, that's starting to sound like a good idea.

I'm excited about having a big belly too. I keep slouching down to make mine stick out more and then rubbing it.
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#22 of 163 Old 08-12-2004, 07:33 PM
 
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I third the 'fibbing' about the due dates (that's cause I am too )

My family carry late (anywhere between 42 and 46 weeks) ... and because of the 42 week rule I was pressured into inducing with cohosh last time ... this time I'm giving myself an extra week so that I can avoid the pressure (that and everyone calling to see if you've had the baby yet ... when you're blown up like a BIG beached whale and wishing it were all done already).

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#23 of 163 Old 08-13-2004, 12:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jessitron
Karen, hi! How long have you been a midwife? (before or after your first child's birth?) Hmm, since both you and Heidi recommend fibbing about the due date, that's starting to sound like a good idea.
I'm a new midwife- just graduated from my apprenticeship. It's hard for me to even admit that I am one, but geesh, I've been putting in the time and effort and deserve the title. We don't have licensure here, so there was no statewide goal to go for, though I am working towards becoming a CPM.

If you give out a due date, and then go over- as many many 1st time moms do, on that date, or even before, the phone calls will begin... "SO... have you had the baby YET?" "You're STILL pregnant?!?" "weren't you due yesterday/last week ?!?"
You gotta remember that a due date is an ESTIMATE- not a date of birth. We tend to get so focused on those DATES- which mean little, IMO. And if people want a date, just add 2 weeks on to yours.
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#24 of 163 Old 08-13-2004, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Karen, congratulations on your graduation!

I expect to be late too, so maybe I'll start telling people I'm due around V-day. That's a nice, easy day to remember.

My husband made meatloaf for me today. Yum! He is great.
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#25 of 163 Old 08-13-2004, 03:13 AM
 
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Can I jump in? I'm actually due end of 2004 (December) but there isn't a thread for that, that I've seen.

I'm Mel, my hubby is Dan, and we're expecting our 2nd child around December 17th. We're in central florida, and we already have one beautiful daughter, Cordelia Daniela (Cordie) who was born at a standalone birth center at 11:02pm on August 30th, 2003...almost exactly one year ago now. While our birth experience with her was good, and we were able to go home as a family four hours later, I just felt it wasn't complete and it would have been better had we stayed home. We were going to the birth center for the first 19 weeks of this pregnancy, then a few things arose and I finally said "that's it, we're not going back" and I started looking into finding a LM for a homebirth. I found a wonderful midwife a few days later, and I've been seeing her since and we plan to have this baby girl born in the same home she'll grow up in, surrounded by her mother, father, and big sister.

mel, silly mama to cordelia (9), emmeline (8),
leone (2), & arthur (born 1.17.2013)

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#26 of 163 Old 08-13-2004, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Mel! Sure, you're close enough. You could go late and have a 2005 baby after all. Was Cordie born before or after her due date?

Whah, that one guy who posted about how unsafe he thinks home birth is sure was annoying this morning. My blood is still boiling a little. I tried to resist posting back but couldn't do it. It's like he heard about women who plan home birth and signed up here so he could warn us and save us from our impending doom. What a ratfish.
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#27 of 163 Old 08-13-2004, 12:58 PM
 
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Hi I'm going to jump in too. Even though we're not quite sure and I haven't found a midwife (dh not quite on board yet)...but I'd really like to follow the thread, if that's ok.

who are you?
I am Jessie (gosh there are a lot of us!). I am due with second child at the very end of January, 26th I think. Although I think my dates may be off, it's in my favor, so I won't correct it.

where are you?
Boulder, Colorado...we just moved into a big house on the very north end of town. I love the house, not so keen on the neighborhood. Hopefully I get used to it though.

how many children do you have already?
Just one lovely girl, born December 2002. If you ask her where the baby is, she lifts up my shirt and kisses my belly...really funny.

why did you choose home birth?
I want to do a homebirth because it just seems nice and relaxing and the way it should be. I labored at home the last time and left for the hospital at the VERY last second. Laboring at home was so nice...I paced all over house and went for walks around the neighborhood, all with my dh or by myself. When we got to the hospital everything was very hectic and i ended up being fully dialated. DD arrived 45 minutes after we got to hospital. We only stayed for 24 hours 'cause nurses kept coming in out of the room and I hated when they took dd away for the tests and bathing. The birth announcement DoulaSarah posted is exactly what I want. Also, I would like to have some one dedicated to taking care of me through out my pregnancy. OBs are just too busy. I think it would be nice to have midwife to talk to...and someone who can check in on me and the baby after the birth. Also, I have depression, so it would be nice to have the less medical take on my struggles with this. Drs. just whip out their prescription pad...

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble...

Happy pregnancy vibes all
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#28 of 163 Old 08-13-2004, 01:18 PM
 
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Jessitron ... ditto on the 'warning' post this morning ... seemed to have the same undertone of total ignorant paranoia that is pervasive in my 'mainstream' relatives and their uneducated attempts to guide dh and I in our choices. The fact is that we (and I include all homebirthing mama's and fellow birth junkies) have looked into our options VERY carefully ...and we know more about birth and the risks involved than the average person. I chose to ignore him. People like that seem to pop up around here periodically to try and 'save' us.


There' sure are a lot of Jes's around here ... I wonder if there's some sort of significance in that LOL?

I need to go eat some more ...stuffing food in my face seems to be the only thing that keeps the MS minimal.

tireless sewer of teeny little clothes for Bamboletta dolls ...

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#29 of 163 Old 08-13-2004, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Mmm, food. I just ate and you're making me hungry again, Jessi. (With an i, an opposed to an ie, which is rubysmomjess - wow!) So far 36% of the posters on this board are a form of Jessica. And I thought my name was not very common in my age group!

Jessie, hello! What do you like most about your house, and least about the neighborhood? New houses are exciting. I asked my DH for recommended reading for men on homebirth. He is fully on board with ours, so maybe he can help.
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#30 of 163 Old 08-13-2004, 02:33 PM
 
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Our new house is new...which is so nice after spending the last 4 years trying to fix up our run-down 1978 townhome. The master bedroom is HUGE, I think it's my favorite room right now. We bought a king size bed and a toddler bed that goes right next to our bed. The cat and the dog sleep with us too... it's just nice and cozy. There's so much cupboard space too! Everything can be put away!

The neighborhood, is well new and kind of fancy. Not really my style. Everyone has kids about dd's age but no one cloth diapers, and I get dirty look for hanging my clothes out to dry in the sun. A lot of the nieghbors are just kind of snobby...although our next-door neighborhoods are awesome. I didn't realize that the neighbor would be so much different moving from one part of town to the other...Boulder really isn't that big.

Mostly I miss the trails at our old house. They are so beautiful and uncrowded...the trails at our new house require the dog to be on the leash always and they are kind of crowded. And people in Boulder are generally very competitve about sports and outdoor recreation. Also the neighborhood is still under construction so it's hard coming from an older neighborhood. Mostly I'm just a big whiner

My dh is mostly concerned 'cause I did hemmorage a bit and got pitocin after the birth of our first. I reassured him that a midwife will have it as well. Also, I don't think he's ever known anyone who's homebirthed so for him it's just out of the norm...he has said that if I find a midwife I really like he'll be on board. I just want him to be comfortable as well. I know it's my body, but it's his baby (and wife) too.

Man, this is a long post!

About the guy this morning...how could you possibly not think hard about any of the birth choices, especially homebirth? However, I know a woman who didn't take a birth class (dr told her not to) and blindy had a c-section when dr said she was too small to deliver vaginally. So maybe that's where he's coming from...
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