vaginal breech - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-03-2002, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Has anyone had a vaginal breech birth? Was it at home, hospital, vbac, etc?

I heard in childbirth classes that "Doctors don't know how to do vaginal breech births anymore." It says in Silent Knife, "WHY DON'T THEY LEARN?"
Greaseball is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-03-2002, 10:44 PM
 
Dodo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: In the kitchen with Liza
Posts: 1,493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I know one person who had two vaginal breech births, both in the hospital.

I have another friend who attempted a vaginal breech birth. She was supposed to give birth in a birthing centre, but had to go to a hospital that 'allows' vaginal breech births. The birthing centre's normal backup hospital won't let mamas with breech babes push.
Dodo is offline  
Old 09-03-2002, 11:15 PM
 
Elphaba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i don't know anyone who has HAD a vaginal breech, but i WAS one!
i came out feet first. my mom kept complaining that she "felt something down there" and finally my dad checked, and there was my foot! he was like, uh, can someone please help my wife!?
Elphaba is offline  
Old 09-03-2002, 11:25 PM
 
Dodo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: In the kitchen with Liza
Posts: 1,493
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Then you do know someone...your mom!
Dodo is offline  
Old 09-03-2002, 11:36 PM
 
Benjismom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My mom had a vaginal birth with me in the hospital and I came out butt first! Her doctor was kind of an older guy (and this was back in 1967) who probably had done plenty. My midwives told me that, as you said, very few practitioners now have experience with vaginal breech birth, because so many hospitals prohibit them.
Benjismom is offline  
Old 09-03-2002, 11:47 PM
 
JesseMomme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: not here anymore
Posts: 7,901
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Somehow or another the topic of birth came up at a dinner we had for the family and my FIL's wife (who is Dr-worshipper-ignorant) said something about her sister needing a c/s for a breech. My husband's grandmother puffed up and proclaimed "Well, my mother had my brother at home, he was breech and weighed 11 pounds! And everything was just fine!"
WOW - I had no idea I was getting a hint of support for my choice of homebirth from her till she said that, afterwards she looked at me and smiled.
JesseMomme is offline  
Old 09-04-2002, 12:24 AM
 
Kat20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
One of the couples who my parents frequently go out with had a breech baby back in 1979. It was her second son, and she had a fast labor. He was born right after they arrived at the hospital, and he turned out fine.

I do not know how much he weighed, but both parents are tall. I am guessing between 8-10 lbs.
Kat20 is offline  
Old 09-04-2002, 01:04 AM
 
lilyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 17,896
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
My brother was breech. It was rare 30 years ago to do a c-sec just for a breech. But then again it was kinda rare to do a c-sec period. Ahhh, how times have changed. We live in a town with 150,000 people in it and the two hospitals serve most of eastern South Dakota and parts of Iowa, Neb. and MN and there is one, just one, Dr who will deliver a breech. And he makes you do it lying on your back. And he is soon to retire. My midwife can't because of regulations but she has promised to do everything in her power to find someone who can if that is what i want.

It is just so silly but those sergeons would go crazy if we never let themuse thier surgical skills.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

lilyka is offline  
Old 09-04-2002, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
So most obstetricians, who make their living delivering babies, resort to a c/sec because they don't know how to deliver a baby.

What's next, the end of vaginal birth? Will doctors say that vaginal birth is "an ancient art" and that no one taught them how to do one in med school?

I hear that doctors who will deliver a breech usually require stirrups, episiotomy and forceps.
Greaseball is offline  
Old 09-04-2002, 05:22 PM
 
kama'aina mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Watching Top Chef, eating Top Ramen
Posts: 19,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I met a woman this weekend at a Bradley picnic who had a vaginal breech at a local hospital. I believe it was even her first baby, which is often a deal breaker. She didn't get into specifics of delivery position or anything but she seemed pleased to have avoided surgery. I do not know if that doc is still in practice. I got the impression he was an 'old-timer'. I also met a midwife last week who delivers breech babies. Of course, he was European trained.

I share your cynicism on this Greaseball!
kama'aina mama is offline  
Old 09-04-2002, 11:42 PM
 
lilyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 17,896
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Well, greesball you may not be to far off from reality. i know a lot of OBs think that elective c-sec are just the way to go for all deliveries. They say this out loud in public. (seems so scandalous to me ). AAAAGGGGHHHHH.

Just a little slightly off topic side note. Did anyone see the Friends birth? Baby was born breech vaginally after a very long uninterupted drug free labor. Nobody really raised a fuss about any of it. I believe the Dr. even said, "Its breech, nothing to worry about just keep pushing" or something like that. Too bad that show is so far removed from reality.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

lilyka is offline  
Old 09-07-2002, 12:10 PM
 
BirthTender's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hampton, TN/Elk Park, NC area
Posts: 386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
in some situations. I look at each one individually & assess the whole picture. You may e-mail me privately or private message me, if you want to discuss this. karen of BirthTender in North Caorlina.
BirthTender is offline  
Old 09-07-2002, 12:18 PM
 
katie-p-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Hub
Posts: 446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was born breech and the ped. told my mom I would nevert be able to talk!! Boy was he wrong! I agree also w/ greaseball. i am really sad about birth and ALL its onterventions. what do we need to do go live in caves again?
katie-p- is offline  
Old 09-17-2002, 06:00 PM
 
heartmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the bat cave with Irishmommy
Posts: 5,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ds was born breech at home....

Heartmama

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
heartmama is offline  
Old 09-18-2002, 12:23 AM
 
member234098's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 3,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dear Mothering friends:

Lilyka: I know of a Dr. (Boyd) who openly said that there no reason ever to not do a c-sec. This was 20 years ago. When he died, his obituary was on the same page in the newspaper as my Dr.'s (Ettinghausen) who delivered my first 2 at home.

I thought that it was ironic.

My mom had a vaginal breech in 1961, her fifth baby. She had trouble even then finding a Dr. who would allow her to labor and deliver vaginally. She found a Dr. at Burbank Community who got referrals to deliver everyone's breech. She was able to come home four hours later; it was Mother's Day.

She did stop at nine. My Father delivered the other eight.
member234098 is offline  
Old 09-18-2002, 01:33 AM
 
tnrsmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: soccer, track, gymnastics
Posts: 10,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I ended up not needing to go through with it, but #3 was transverse(sideways) for the last few weeks before delivery. She ended up turning on her own the night before I went into labor but my OB at the time said that even if she flipped the other way(breech) she would *allow* me to deliver vaginally. She said she was not concerned as I had already delivered 2 children vaginally, 8lbs 4ozs and 7lbs 12ozs so she was not concerned about the baby getting stuck.
tnrsmom is offline  
Old 09-18-2002, 01:51 PM
 
lorijds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,845
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Basically, the stats that I have heard is that the risks for morbity and mortality are the same for vaginal breech and for c-section (I don't know if this refers to first time moms or not). The vast majority of OBs are extremely comfortable doing sections, but have never even seen a breech vaginal birth. So of course they are going to do a section. That makes sense to me, that you do what you are most comfortable with in that situation.

Consequently, I have found that most of the docs in this area that attend vaginal breech births are not OBs. They are family practioners--they CAN'T perform sections, so I think they try a little harder to learn other ways of dealing with certain situations, breech included. At least some of them do. They also seem to be the hands off sort of docs. If you don't do a vag exam until mom is well into the pushing stage, and babe is breech, well, you have a breech baby. There are only a handful of them, and interestingly enough, the nurses in general don't like them (control issues?).

Most birth centers do not do them because their accrediting body does not allow it. Membership in this body helps birth centers get insurance, get reimbursed by insurances, provides educational support, etc, so many birth centers are members.

I know of one family practice doc that dismisses her patients to home and then does a breech home birth, if they patients desire a breech vaginal birth over a section, and the doc feels they are good candidates. I think she is so brave. This is a very conservative medical community, and if something ever goes wrong, I fear for her; but I also greatly admire her knowledge and bravery, and her desire to provide babies and moms with gentle, natural births. Docs like this need alot of community support.

The few pictures of breech vaginal births that I have seen performed by docs in our area have involved stirrups if in the hospital. All the moms are on their backs in a semi-reclining position, but actually, I think this is universally considered the best position for a breech vaginal birth. Even the pictures I have seen of moms in an out of hospital setting were semireclining, and dad was behind them. supporting them and helping to hold on to their legs. No episiotomy or forceps, though.
lorijds is offline  
Old 09-18-2002, 03:10 PM
 
queencarr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My situation was perhaps a little different, in that we knew my baby was stillborn already, but I had in induced (with cervidil not cytotec) VBAC breech. It was in the hospital, with a dr. who I really respect--even more so after our birth experience--who delivers breech vaginally, will attempt external versions, and delivers twins vag as well. Despite also having signs of preeclampsia, I was allowed my choice of labor and birthing positions. I delivered in a sitting squat, and when only her head was still inside, they did ask me to use stirrups, still sitting up, which was more comfortable at that point anyway. I had no episiotomy, tearing, etc. I didn't even have stinging when I went to the bathroom.

Carrie

edited to add: my baby was born about 3 1/2 weeks ago, and was 11w premature.
queencarr is offline  
Old 09-18-2002, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
You mean twins are also a reason for a c/s?

I read that in medical school, doctors see more sections than vaginal births, and they also like them better.
Greaseball is offline  
Old 09-19-2002, 03:25 AM
 
Theo's Mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Ca
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi, I'm preg with twins, and seem to be lucky to have found a doctor (who does backup for the midwive's practice I go to) who will deliver breech, even if both twins are breech. I don't think I realized how rare this was. However, he is really wanting me to have an epidural if one or more are breech, so he can reach around "in there" and "get them out in a hurry." I said it would be ok if it hurt, and he said he was afraid I'd kick him in the face. (My three-year-old was present and tells everyone, "Dr. J is afraid mommy will kick him in the face. . .")

Even the birthing video I saw of breech birth at the Farm had the mom on her back, I'm not sure exactly why...
Theo's Mama is offline  
Old 09-19-2002, 06:29 AM
 
simonee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Where the sun don't shine
Posts: 4,867
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by Greaseball
You mean twins are also a reason for a c/s?

sometimes it seems that pregnancy is a reason for c/s :
simonee is offline  
Old 09-19-2002, 10:54 AM
 
lorijds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,845
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since I have never observed a breech birth, I'm not sure, but I think from my reading that women are on their back because of the way the baby's body needs to almost hang down at one point in the birth, to allow for the back of the head to pass the pubic bone. In a squatting position or hands and knees, this would be difficult.

From what I have heard in various discussions of twins...it depends upon which type of twin you carry. If they share a placenta and an amniotic bag (which is pretty rare--most twins still have their own bag), there actually is a pretty high risk for cord problems--entanglement could endanger either twin, and the second twin is in danger if the placenta begins to detatch before the second one is out--I don't know how fast the second twin usually comes, but I can tell you that in our practice, the placenta usually comes 10-25 minutes after baby. If the second twin usually comes within minutes of the first, then I suspect the "placenta detatching early" is not really an indication for a section. Having twins sharing a bag--I personally might be uncomfortable with that. However, I don't think that twins should be an automatic section.

It is interesting, in my community, I believe that you really have to fight to have twins vaginally. In the next town over (about 35 miles away), you can find an OB to attend a vaginal twin birth with not too much difficulty. I believe there is even a CNM who attends twins at home as long as the twins do not share a bag.

Of course---if you don't get a sonogram...how can anyone say with certainty that you are carrying twins?
lorijds is offline  
Old 09-19-2002, 11:23 AM
 
knitterma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi Carrie,
Just wanted to say I'm so sorry you lost your baby but I'm glad you were able to have a positive birth experience.

Stephanie
knitterma is offline  
Old 09-19-2002, 02:13 PM
 
queencarr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
lorijds,

I know that when I was put into the stirrups, her head did come much easier. I could feel her shift with my position change. There was almost a "popping sensation" as her head moved and she was delivered. My dr said that the head getting stuck on the pubic bone is the main risk of breech delivery and is more common in preemies, for some unknown reason.

Twin sections are common, from what I understand, because often the second baby is breech (sometimes turning at the last minute), and dr's don't want breech deliveries, bla bla bla.

Stephanie,

Thank you. Despite the circumstances, her birth was a healing experience in a lot of ways. And the dr's confidence in me and my body has been helpful when I have begun to doubt myself/my body. Among my favorites--when asked if he wanted me on a monitor, he said "no, she can tell us what's going on", and when one of the nurses wanted me to push again when I wasn't quite ready, he told her "leave her alone, she knows what she's doing".

Carrie

Carrie
queencarr is offline  
Old 09-19-2002, 09:20 PM
 
phoebekate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 404
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
lorijds, you might be interested to read some of the UK literature on breech birth as they seem to have the opposite technique to the US and insist on either squatting or hands and knees, some saying they would NEVER allow a suppine breech birth... try these links (they are all do to with breech but some are more about turning I think):

http://www.aims.org.uk/jnlaut98b.htm
http://www.aims.org.uk/jnlaut98c.htm
http://www.aims.org.uk/jnlaut98d.htm
http://www.aims.org.uk/jnlaut98e.htm

also search for breach here:

http://www.radmid.demon.co.uk/

also, Michel Odents book Birth Reborn has a discussion on his approach to breech I believe, he uses a supported squat.

its interesting to me how committed everyone is to their approach and how worried they are about all the other ways of doing it. Mary Cronks article really spoke to me, something felt really "right" about her approach when my baby was breech and I was thinking about my options (DD turned during a massage so it didn't matter in the end).
phoebekate is offline  
Old 09-20-2002, 01:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
Greaseball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 8,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
My personal belief is that if I were alone delivering my own breech baby, my body would instinctively know the right position to get into. I would do whatever was comfortable, which would automatically be the best thing for the baby.

If I were in the hospital, however, I would probably just do whatever they said.:
Greaseball is offline  
Old 09-20-2002, 02:00 AM
 
lorijds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,845
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Phoebekate,

I think that people are committed to the techniques they have learned because it works for them. To change techniques to something that maybe better, but is completely different, while all the while a mother and child are trusting you to know what the heck you are doing--well, it is simply scary. What did people do before the internet? I mean, in a matter of days, I can spend several hours on a computer and learn a completely new way of doing something, research it, see photojournals of it, discuss it with people who have performed it and liked it or didn't like it. It is amazing.

Here is a website that I think would interest all in this discussion--


www.breechbabies.com
lorijds is offline  
Old 09-23-2002, 12:07 AM
 
heartmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the bat cave with Irishmommy
Posts: 5,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just wanted to add I have read it is NOT best to lay back for breech birth. I think Michael Odent did some statistical research on breech and found that sitting or squatting opens the pelvis and makes breech easier.

Heartmama

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
heartmama is offline  
Old 09-23-2002, 05:42 AM
 
LaLaLuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: here, there & everywhere
Posts: 1,277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I delivered a vaginal breech baby (my first) in a hospital, which is basically why I'll never again deliver in a hospital. My doc was fairly supportive tho he did insist on backing himself up with a sonogram and a fetal monitor. The nursing staff, however, were about having kittens at the idea. One wretch actually got into my dr's face and was yelling at him about lawsuits if he didn't get me down to surgery pronto and open me up. Another one was out in the hall yelling "come watch this! You'll never get another chance to watch a breech delivery!" There was a cast of thousands at this birth.

The one positive thing that happened (staff-wise, anyway) was that one RN happened to have been a retired lay midwife (she delivered two of my friends' babies) actually attended to ME and suggested I might like a squat bar (YES!) which went a long way toward making my pushes more productive. She was awesome, my dr. was semi-awesome, everyone else just pissed me off. I did feel very fortunate to deliver a vaginal breech in a hospital. But why should I have to feel grateful for something I intended to do in the first place?
LaLaLuna is offline  
Old 02-16-2003, 01:45 PM
 
member234098's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Behind you.
Posts: 3,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dear MDC:

In Michelle Harrison's book, she describes how powerful the Caesarean section is for the doctor. It is the one time the doctor does "deliver" the baby.

For your medical records and for YOUR information, when a doctor "catches" a baby from a normal, uncomplicated vaginal delivery, he writes down "unremarkable". For him, it is. For the mother, she is elated!
member234098 is offline  
 
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off