Britney Spears had her baby... ELECTIVE C/S - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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Old 09-30-2005, 03:57 PM
 
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I think doctors performing primary elective c-sections without medical indications are violating the Hippocratic oath and committing malpractice. Surgery is not just a "choice" or a "right" because you want it. I had kidney stones a few years ago and when they did a CAT scan, the doctor determined that they were small enough to pass naturally. It hurt like a b*tch. Should I have been able to DEMAND that my doctor perform an unneccessary and risky surgery to remove the kidney stones just because I didn't want to go through pain? Medicine isn't just some menu you can order off of to suit your fancy--your health care practitioners should give you only the medical care that is indicated by your condition and that is least risky.

And saying that women should just take responsibility and do their research is an ideal, but not realistic, I think. We have been culturally trained to assume that our doctors "know what's best" and certainly know more than us. It occurs to very few people to question their doctors--and the reaction of many doctors to such questions (condescension, dismissal) only reaffirms the cultural norm that regular people know nothing about their bodies and aren't qualified to make medical decisions for themselves. I know many very educated, thoughtful people who have been given blatantly inaccurate info by their doctors ("breastfeeding is only beneficial for the first three months", for instance) and it doesn't occur to them to question the authority with the medical degree.
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Old 09-30-2005, 04:08 PM
 
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My attempts to find things out for myself have never been rooted in an intelligent assessment of the medical profession. They've been rooted in a gut-level feeling that what I'm being told or what's being done isn't okay.

My mom is a great example. She's a very intelligent woman, but she knewnothing about circumcision - and didn't know that it was routinely done. In 1963, at the age of 19, she was handed a form to sign authorizing my brother's circ. She asked what that was, the nurse explained it. She replied, "well, if he's born with, there must be a reason, it's there", and refused to sign. She also breastfed, based on the same thinking of "why do I make milk, if that's not what's best for my baby?". My brother was the only baby out of 30 on the ward who was b/f, and the only boy who wasn't circ'd. It had nothing to do with her knowledge...only her gut reactions (and stubbornness).

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Old 09-30-2005, 04:17 PM
 
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My attempts to find things out for myself have never been rooted in an intelligent assessment of the medical profession. They've been rooted in a gut-level feeling that what I'm being told or what's being done isn't okay.
Fair enough, but I believe we are culturally programmed/encouraged to ignore our instincts. How many stories have you heard of moms who used CIO and talked about their heart was breaking listening to their baby cry, their instinct was to run and pick him up...but the "experts" (Ezzo, Ferber, whoever) said that this was a "good" technique so they stuck with it.
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Old 09-30-2005, 07:36 PM
 
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I know - it's beyond sad. I try to go with my gut, and ignore experts. Even when I do research, I'm usually just trying to back myself up (eg. "I want to labour before surgery - I need a good selling point for my OB - ahhh...great - it'll help my milk come in").

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Old 09-30-2005, 10:18 PM
 
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With regards to women being allowed to have a choice in how they birth, I fully agree that all women should have a choice. HOWEVER, I strongly believe that in the current society and culture we have this is next to impossible. Why?

1. We have ob's giving false information, scare tactics, lack of correct information, and basing their decisions on plain ol' cover your butt information and money making tactics instead of what's best for women and what's correct based on research.

2. We don't even allow many women the option to have vaginal births after c/s so how can we in good faith allow elective c/s for women? If we aren't allowed to have ALL options, I certainly don't think we can pick and choose which ones we allow and which ones we don't.

3. Our culture and the media portray birth as this life threatening, terrifying crisis that will kill us all if we don't do what we're told by the all mighty ob. what a way to instill a view on birth to future mothers as well as current ones. :

I firmly believe that if correct, unbiased information were presented, if doctors were concerned more with women than with covering their arse and making money, and if our culture portrayed birth as a natural part of life instead of a disease, given a full range of choices, you'd be hard pressed to find a woman that would elect to have a c/s. Just my 2 cents of course.
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Old 10-03-2005, 10:35 AM
 
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For a long time I didnt feel like I birthed my daughter, I think it finally started to feel like it the more I spoke of my experience and the more people who commented about not giving birth to her, the more I ingrained in myself that I had indeed done most of the work, I was lucky and got to bf her an hour after she was born, if I had known what I know now I would have asked to feed her right there, but because a csection was not on my too do list I didnt research it too deeply. When the csection was decided on I was so detached from my daughter, I even told the midwife that I didnt want it, that I was so detached that I no longer felt any connection with this thing inside me. I cant even remember the first 3 days but I know that I was determined to make it work, she was what I had always wanted, but man it has been hard. It has changed me and not for the better, I am a great mum but I feel extremely damaged.
That is why I get so angry when I see/hear of people asking for a csection because of the pain, or because they dont want to get stretch marks
I carried Amalia till 42 weeks, refused induction, was having a natural drug free waterbirth, I did everything right and would have succeed if I had just followed my instincts. I really hope people starting using there brains and educating themselves and then the csection rate may start dropping, Its heartbreaking really because there isnt anything I wouldnt do to have the stretched vagina, the ring of fire all the things people seem to be so scared of, I would prefer that over what I went through any day. :
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Old 10-03-2005, 11:30 AM
 
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And I'd like to add having had both an unplanned c/s, a repeat scheduled c/s (at OBs orders) and then having a hba2c w/ the most excellent midwife I know :LOL -- there is no way I'd choose to have a c/s ever again. And it pains me to hear of women choosing a c/s before even giving their bodies a chance to do what it was made to do. For the majority of women, a vaginal birth works and works well.
It disturbs me even more so that the medical community is all too willing to preform major abdominal surgery on pregnant women without due medical necessity, the risk are sooo much more when pregnant. Pregnancy increase blood volume, which in turn sets a woman up for massive bleeding during surgery which in turn plumets blood pressure, and the list spirals down. Now of course the chance of serious injury is low, but it is still higher than vaginal birth.
As for a women's mental status, if only we were educated not to fear birth but to embrace it. There are movements across the US doing just this. I've got an army of websites if anyone is interested and if you are in VA, you just missed this last weekend a Trust Birth seminar event w/ Carla Hartley.
OBs need to be refering their patients to Seminars such as this instead of ignoring the emotional needs of women and helping them over come their fears (like most midwives do).
B/c even the OBs know and are taught vaginal births are safer for mother and baby in the majority of the population. Our c/s rates in the US are astronomically higher than other industrialized nations. Last I looked 24% and yet our mortality rates of mothers and infants is lower than a lot of lesser developed nations w/ less access to medical treatments. That makes no logical sense and makes a very big statement something is wrong -- listen to Mr. Marsden Wagner!!!
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Old 10-03-2005, 12:50 PM
 
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I just have to add a story about my neighbor because juliema states that she honestly believes that women would not choose a c-section when they have all of the info. My neighbor gave birth to her first daughter naturally - no drugs and vaginally. With her second she scheduled a c-section because she felt that she had "done" the vaginal birth thing and wanted a scheduled set date to have her next child. She had all of the information - no doctors were trying to scare her into anything, but she made the choice to have a c-section. Just one example, but if she did this I'm sure there are many more women who would feel the same.

I also take exception to all of the talk about doctors just trying to "cover their arse" and trying to make money by performing c-sections. My husband is a doctor and knows many other doctors - the current litigious and finger pointing nature of practicing medicine makes it impossible to always do what many mothers on this board consider the "right thing" by allowing a mother to birth vaginally. Choosing to perform an emergency c-section is often a choice for the health of the baby - they are NOT trying to traumitize you, "rob" you of your birth experience or just make a buck. Now you may second guess the need or validity of your doctor's choice after everything is said and done, but are you really willing to risk the health of your child to find out if you were right? I guess what I'm trying to say is that doctors are not the monsters they seem to be portrayed as on these boards - they are human beings trying to do what is best for mother and child in an extremely litigious society.

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Old 10-03-2005, 01:27 PM
 
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Unfortunately there are doctors out there who perform c-section at the drop of a hat especially if it is 4am and they have office hours the next day. I work in a busy L&D unit in New York City and this happens frequently. They are also very happy to schedule repeat sections yet women have to fight for a "trial of labor" and then have a bigger fight to complete it. There's nothing more vulnerable than a woman in labor. Many doctors are also negative towards natural childbirth and will say, with tongue in cheek, "open the OR she wants to do this naturally". Obviously not ALL ob's think this way but many do. They are trained as surgeons. Lets bring in the midwives.

Electra 375 you talk a lot of sense - women do need to embrace birth and all it entails. IMO any woman who is so afraid of childbirth she wants surgery needs a few psychotherapy sessions. And those who fear pain need to be reminded that a c-section is not painless.
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Old 10-03-2005, 02:49 PM
 
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Choosing to perform an emergency c-section is often a choice for the health of the baby - they are NOT trying to traumitize you, "rob" you of your birth experience or just make a buck. Now you may second guess the need or validity of your doctor's choice after everything is said and done, but are you really willing to risk the health of your child to find out if you were right?
I a c-section a guarantee that the baby will be born healthy? No - it's not. There are no guarantees in birth. Why is it the doctor's decision?

I allowed myself to be bullied into a scheduled section with dd. (She was footling breech, and I may have ended up with surgery, anyway, as I didn't know anything about midwifery, and nobody at the hospital would have been willing to try to catch her, esp. as I was trying to VBAC.) I went along with it, and dd had breathing problems for several weeks. A nurse told dh and I that breating difficulties like that were normal for c/s babies. No doctor ever mentioned this to me when they were talking about "not risking my baby's health". I was in pain from surgery, and terrified my daughter would just stop breathing and die of SIDS. My doctors might have been happy, but they didn't have to listen to her rasp and sometimes just skip a breath...

My doctors were both sincerely concerned for me and my baby this time around, as well - I have no doubts about their motivations. But, the fact remains that once my section was over, they had their "good outcome", but I did not. They don't have to live with this every bloody day for the rest of their lives. I do.


I do agree that the lawsuit issue is out of control. For a woman to push for a VBAC against her doctor's advice, then sue when/if something goes wrong is appalling. But, I'm not an infant, and my doctor is not my parent. They shouldn't be making decisions for me or forcing decisions that I don't agree with.

I've also spent time on ob-gyn.net. Some of those doctors are truly concerned with their patients, but have to cover their butts. Some of them are misogynistic in the extreme, and I pray I never find myself in the "care" of someone like that.

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Old 10-03-2005, 02:52 PM
 
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My neighbor gave birth to her first daughter naturally - no drugs and vaginally. With her second she scheduled a c-section because she felt that she had "done" the vaginal birth thing and wanted a scheduled set date to have her next child. She had all of the information - no doctors were trying to scare her into anything, but she made the choice to have a c-section. Just one example, but if she did this I'm sure there are many more women who would feel the same.
This is so wrong...
There should NOT NOT NOT be an option unless it is medically necessary. Such as, a woman who tears 4th and 5th degree and requires repeated surgeries to correct the damage done by a vaginal birth (some might call mismanaged vaginal birth, but for the sake of argument, leave that part of the story out of it), her OB suggested she have a c/s for the next. Well, okay... Medical necessity. A c/s just b/c you want to schedule your delivery??? What??? You can schedule a vaginal delivery these days... (not that I agree with that either).

And I beg to differ as to whether or not she had ALL the information to make that choice. It sounds to me like she just didn't want to go through with another vaginal birth (or didn't divuldge she had major ripage requiring major repair work -- which happened to a woman I know, she sch a c/s w/ #3 b/c of the damage)... So, don't have anymore children... (BLUNT, but let's get real, if you don't want to do the labor thing, then don't get pregnant... Not speaking to women here who have had c/s and can not have vaginal births for whatever reason BTDT).

Again, major abdominal surgery should NOT be a choice to mothers (especially first timers) given no medical necessity which would warrent major surgery. People are becoming so numb to the fact that a c-section is major surgery, it is not even medically classified as a minor procedure like my dd's tear duct probing. Just b/c you are awake doesn't make it any less of a surgery. There are risk, there are consequences -- lower milk supply being a big one for some mothers (me), the cause of secondary infertility (me), your bladder is literaly moved out of the way of the uterus then tacked back in place which isn't the original place, so there can be issues (me again), infection, bleeding, scar adhesion problems in subsquent pregnancies, scar rupture during pregnancy (yes, that is correct, the risk increase with each c/s noted in medical literature after c/s #3), the list goes on. I for one was told only the minor risk, that happen rarely and it wasn't a discussion, it was a paper I read before I signed stating I would not hold the doctor liable if he screwed up and nicked my bladder etc.

The WHO should be all over the US for permitting this, but then again it started in Brazil. The OB that recommend my 2nd c/s had been to a GYN conference in 2001 which listed all the great and wonderful things about a c/s. And how women in Brazil w/ $$ were choosing primary elective c/s to prevent uterine prolapse and bladder leakage issues. Both of which I now know are preventable with good midwifery instruction -- do Kegals and do stay in bed for at least 2 wks after the birth of your baby!!! Do you ever wonder why in some cultures the women are in a birthing hut or seclusion for what some would call a lengthy time after birth? Look into it, rest significantly improves the chance of not having a uterine prolapse!!!

So the answer to medically mismanaged OB care over the last 50 yrs is to get everyone to abandon vaginal births!!! Pushing in the sub-line position prefered by OB increases the risk of tears in all the wrong places. Forced pushing verses following the body's natural pushing force, which is used in epidural hospital births adds strain on the bladder causing bladder leakage later in some. And OBs telling women that they can do whatever they want if they feel up to it, is causing uterine prolapses. I had my last OB tell me at 1 wk pp after a c/s that I was doing so well he didn't see why I needed my mother there to help me!!! He refused to sign her family medical leave act paperwork so she could stay!!! My midwife wanted me in bed as long as my mother was there to look after my other children -- 3 1/2 wks in bed!!!

I think you get my point and if you don't please ask, I will dig out the data I have. I research vba2c like crazy after I read the bit about uterine rupture during pregnancy after c/s #3 -- hence my biggest reason for HBA2C. It was in Henci Goer's book The Thinking Women's Guide to a Better Birth.
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Old 10-03-2005, 03:14 PM
 
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There are risk, there are consequences -- lower milk supply being a big one for some mothers (me), the cause of secondary infertility (me), your bladder is literaly moved out of the way of the uterus then tacked back in place which isn't the original place, so there can be issues (me again), infection, bleeding, scar adhesion problems in subsquent pregnancies, scar rupture during pregnancy (yes, that is correct, the risk increase with each c/s noted in medical literature after c/s #3), the list goes on.
Even after having been through it twice before, I was quite surprised to realize that I couldn't feel my bladder. That hadn't happened before. I'm over two months pp, and still don't have very much bladder sensation...I only start to feel as though I need to pee when it's almost too late. So, I try to just remember, but that's hard with two little ones needing attention. This isn't a huge complication but I'm pretty PO'd that my doctors both say "oh, yeah - that's normal - it should go away in a few months". Nice to tell me that after I was cut.

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Old 10-03-2005, 04:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Danesmama
I also take exception to all of the talk about doctors just trying to "cover their arse" and trying to make money by performing c-sections. My husband is a doctor and knows many other doctors - the current litigious and finger pointing nature of practicing medicine makes it impossible to always do what many mothers on this board consider the "right thing" by allowing a mother to birth vaginally. Choosing to perform an emergency c-section is often a choice for the health of the baby - they are NOT trying to traumitize you, "rob" you of your birth experience or just make a buck. Now you may second guess the need or validity of your doctor's choice after everything is said and done, but are you really willing to risk the health of your child to find out if you were right? I guess what I'm trying to say is that doctors are not the monsters they seem to be portrayed as on these boards - they are human beings trying to do what is best for mother and child in an extremely litigious society.
I don't even think it is the litigation. No, doctors are not monsters and I don't even think that they get more $ in this day and age for a c/sec (birth is usually a global fee, I believe, for the OB). HOWEVER - it comes down to training. Many, many OB's see inductions as harmless, epidurals 'don't increase the c/sec rate' and ignore evidence to the contrary. Many, many, MANY of the c/secs that are performed are for 'failure to progress', 'failed induction' or 'persistant posterior [most likely secondary to an epidural]'. They aren't trained in forceps use (at least the younger ones) are reluctant to use the vacuum unless the baby is 'right there' - so they are left with one recourse - c/sec. And they can't figure out WHY their c/sec rates are so high .
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Old 10-03-2005, 07:54 PM
 
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18 months later and I still have periods where I cant feel my bladder properlly, I got my first ever UTI a couple of months ago, which I attribute to the fact that I hold on for so long because I cant feel when I need to go until I am bursting
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Old 10-03-2005, 07:57 PM
 
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Uh, huh - the doctor told me it "might be months", but I've got a bad feeling about it. I'm wondering if it will ever come back.

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Old 10-03-2005, 10:44 PM
 
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My c/s was 2.5 years ago and I still cant tell I need to go sometimes until it starts to hurt my whole lower abdomen.
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