Questions about "expectation of pain leads to pain" (orgasmic birth, hypnobabies) - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 58 Old 01-08-2009, 10:46 PM
 
mostly jays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: east coast
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I'm not saying birth and emotion are disconnected; of course they are very closely connected. And I do think that an extremely fearful or anxious mother can make labor much, much more difficult and frightening. But the other side of that coin is that a calm mother does not, and cannot, guarantee or ensure a painless (or even manageable pain-level) labor.
So, how would a calm mother look if she's in a lot of pain? I think the atmosphere around her and in her is much better off than the mother who is freaking, screamin and kickin her baby out. That is a HUGE judgement on my part, and I apologize if it offends.

While physiological issues contribute to childbirth in a big way, I wonder how the responses to those stimuli (ie. baby positioning, confidence level of mom, her family, her care providers, surroundings and things being done to her and for her) play into how a mom gives birth?

I think finding a place to give birth, where a mom is supported in trusting her body is most helpful. The other is to find a positive information system. Do not set yourself up to believe that your births will be excruciating.

I too had unexpectedly strong periods. I'd have to stay home from school and vomit until the pain meds kicked in, and my births were intense, not painful. and... periods got way easier after I had my first baby. I like to think that the tough periods were just prepping me for birth. And guess what? My births were so much easier than periods!

I totally recommend hypnosis for childbirth, and especially Hypnobabies. I choose to believe in my miraculous baby and body. Is there a saying about "it's not what happens to a person that defines them, rather, it's how we respond that does it? I may not respond perfectly, but I'm going to try really hard...
mostly jays is offline  
#32 of 58 Old 01-09-2009, 12:24 AM
 
gemasita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 1,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Jennica, if you want to try hypnosis for birth, why don't you try it for your periods? Get hypnobabies and just adapt it a bit to be a pain control method for your periods. See how it works for you.
You can even use a hypnosis script specifically designed for this. I have hypnosis scripts for hip pain, infertility, sleeplessnes, my husband's snoring, etc. I get a lot of mine from http://www.hypnosisdownloads.com. I see they have a PMS script. Hypnosis is such a universal skill. It can be used for SO many things.

Jamie, DW to Jeff, birth and postpartum doula and Hypnobabies instructor.
4 years and 5 IVF cycles in the making, Elliott was born at home in water on 2/2/11.
gemasita is offline  
#33 of 58 Old 01-14-2009, 02:58 AM
k13
 
k13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bad Town, WA
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is a bit of a ramble and I hope what I'm saing makes some sort of sense... What puzzles me is why pain is considered to be an automatically bad thing. To me it seems a necessary part of life that sometimes needs to be met head on. It seems like our culture in particular seems bent on suppressing any and all discomforts with all kinds of pills and whatnot. Looking at how other cultures view/utilize pain is interesting. Sometimes it is seen a way to make oneself stronger. If you can endure a little pain, it can give you confidence in your endurance and your strength. And the mind is pretty powerful -I do think a lot of enduring/overcoming pain is in the mind. I've had two births that involved both intense pain and intense pleasure - and I was fine with that. I am not sure I would have had the same intensity of one without the other. I'm actually excited for this birth. I've been thinking about trying for an orgasmic birth... : but I'm not necessarily expecting it to be pain free, either. I also see pain in childbirth as a natural consequence the problem of having evolved as bipedal primates with exceptionally large brains

Anyway, just my two cents on pain...
k13 is offline  
#34 of 58 Old 01-14-2009, 12:09 PM
 
Romana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by k13 View Post
This is a bit of a ramble and I hope what I'm saing makes some sort of sense... What puzzles me is why pain is considered to be an automatically bad thing. To me it seems a necessary part of life that sometimes needs to be met head on.
Ok, I get this for "regular" or "moderate" pain. But where would you draw the line and say that a woman who feels extreme pain might not be a great thing, or even an okay thing? And definitely not a "necessary" thing?

Quote:
It seems like our culture in particular seems bent on suppressing any and all discomforts with all kinds of pills and whatnot.
Sure, there's definitely a culture of "If I can avoid the pain of having a tooth drilled" or "If I can avoid the pain of a migraine" or "If I can avoid the pain of menstrual cramps" then "why wouldn't I?" And for a lot of people, that also transfers to the area of childbirth. However, there are plenty of women who approach birth head-on and have natural births, experience an extreme level of pain and don't walk away feeling like it's been a great or even tolerable experience. The magnitude of the pain and its relationship to the event are important. There comes a point, also, where the sheer magnitude of the pain, in my opinion, completely invalidates the comparison (to a migraine, toothache, or pretty much anything else short of major surgery or massive physical injuries).

Quote:
Looking at how other cultures view/utilize pain is interesting. Sometimes it is seen a way to make oneself stronger. If you can endure a little pain, it can give you confidence in your endurance and your strength.
A little pain? I think the point here is that we're really not talking about a little pain. We're talking about A LOT of pain. We're probably talking about pain of such degree that it causes PTSD, results in long-term consequences including considering not adding to a family that desires more children simply because it was *that bad* and women who experienced pain on a level that can only be equated with physical torture. I'm not sure it makes sense to try to overcome - or perhaps dismiss - that kind of experience with the idea that "If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger."

Quote:
And the mind is pretty powerful -I do think a lot of enduring/overcoming pain is in the mind. I've had two births that involved both intense pain and intense pleasure - and I was fine with that. I am not sure I would have had the same intensity of one without the other.
I don't think it's possible to understand how bad it can be until you've experienced it. It is magnitudes, magnitudes worse than the normal pain of childbirth. It's not something you can describe in words (though of course you can try). So it's very difficult to have a conversation about it that's workable if you have Woman A who has experienced pain within the realm of normal and Woman B who has experienced extreme pain. The limit of Woman A's experience is birth and whatever else she may have experienced that was painful, like a root canal, broken bone, kidney stone, etc. Having not actually experienced the sensations, there is no way to really connect.

I found tremendous validation from a member here on MDC who posted that she just didn't get what the big deal was until her 3rd or 4th birth, where she had that mindblowing level of pain, and THEN she understood what some women were talking about. It really took her by surprise and changed her views.

Quote:
I'm actually excited for this birth. I've been thinking about trying for an orgasmic birth... : but I'm not necessarily expecting it to be pain free, either. I also see pain in childbirth as a natural consequence the problem of having evolved as bipedal primates with exceptionally large brains
FWIW, I really hope you get yoru orgasmic birth!
Romana is offline  
#35 of 58 Old 01-14-2009, 04:50 PM
k13
 
k13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bad Town, WA
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
FWIW, I really hope you get yoru orgasmic birth!
me too! I've been on pelvic rest for weeks now! I'm orgasm deprived

I guess I wasn't aware this conversation was about an extreme level of pain... I thought it was a more general discussion of pain. I'm definitely not against people managing pain at all. I say let them have painkillers! I was just putting out some more random thoughts about pain...

I know when I had an IUD it made my periods totally miserable, so horrible it was debilitating and it got worse over time. I popped midols like mad then, or I could not function. When the IUD was out my periods were back to normal.

So I think there are different types of pain and yes sometimes it is your body saying something is really wrong!

I really don't know much about hypnobirth or anything I was just thinking that rather than denying pain, accepting it could also be a way of transforming it.
k13 is offline  
#36 of 58 Old 01-14-2009, 05:40 PM
 
justice'smom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romana9+2 View Post
Ok, I get this for "regular" or "moderate" pain. But where would you draw the line and say that a woman who feels extreme pain might not be a great thing, or even an okay thing? And definitely not a "necessary" thing?



Sure, there's definitely a culture of "If I can avoid the pain of having a tooth drilled" or "If I can avoid the pain of a migraine" or "If I can avoid the pain of menstrual cramps" then "why wouldn't I?" And for a lot of people, that also transfers to the area of childbirth. However, there are plenty of women who approach birth head-on and have natural births, experience an extreme level of pain and don't walk away feeling like it's been a great or even tolerable experience. The magnitude of the pain and its relationship to the event are important. There comes a point, also, where the sheer magnitude of the pain, in my opinion, completely invalidates the comparison (to a migraine, toothache, or pretty much anything else short of major surgery or massive physical injuries).



A little pain? I think the point here is that we're really not talking about a little pain. We're talking about A LOT of pain. We're probably talking about pain of such degree that it causes PTSD, results in long-term consequences including considering not adding to a family that desires more children simply because it was *that bad* and women who experienced pain on a level that can only be equated with physical torture. I'm not sure it makes sense to try to overcome - or perhaps dismiss - that kind of experience with the idea that "If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger."



I don't think it's possible to understand how bad it can be until you've experienced it. It is magnitudes, magnitudes worse than the normal pain of childbirth. It's not something you can describe in words (though of course you can try). So it's very difficult to have a conversation about it that's workable if you have Woman A who has experienced pain within the realm of normal and Woman B who has experienced extreme pain. The limit of Woman A's experience is birth and whatever else she may have experienced that was painful, like a root canal, broken bone, kidney stone, etc. Having not actually experienced the sensations, there is no way to really connect.

I found tremendous validation from a member here on MDC who posted that she just didn't get what the big deal was until her 3rd or 4th birth, where she had that mindblowing level of pain, and THEN she understood what some women were talking about. It really took her by surprise and changed her views.



FWIW, I really hope you get yoru orgasmic birth!
I'm not sure if your the one who went through all that pain, but if so, I'm so sorry. You are so right that because we did not go through that we can't understand. Don't get me wrong, my birth was in no way easy. It was extremely hard and I thought there was no way I could do it, but I don't think it's the same type of pain your talking about and I'm so sorry you and anyone else had to deal with that. I think we can all agree that in a situation like that something else needs to be done. Like you I do agree with what the other lady said as a general rule that most people don't want to feel pain. People don't even want to feel anything, no anger, no sadness, no hurt, they only want to feel glad. However there are people that do go through horrible pain and should be helped. I don't think anyone was saying otherwise for that type of pain. Thank you for posting for the woman that have dealt with that kind of pain and may feel like we are saying they should have just dealt with it. I hope noone else feels that way.
justice'smom is offline  
#37 of 58 Old 01-15-2009, 12:37 AM
 
Eresh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gainesville, VA
Posts: 776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I kind of get what K13 is saying (not the OMG kind of pain Romana9+2 is talking about, but more manageable pain). I had horrible pain in my hips and legs that completely surprised me. I honestly don't remember any pain other than in my hips, so I don't know what that means. The pain never really reached the unmanageable level, though DH said I did say I couldn't do it while I was in transition. I don't remember remember at all since I was high as a kite!

Since DS's birth I've learned about Hypnobabies and I'm honestly torn about whether I want to do it or not. I don't want to experience less, if that makes any sense. Of course "missing" several hours of my labor probably qualifies as experiencing less too. I think I probably will try Hypnobabies next time around .. that and visiting a chiropractor to see if I can do something about my hips.

Loving DH geek.gif, raising DS1 learning.gif(01/08) and DS2 bfinfant.gif(10/10), caring for cat.gif x 3 .
Eresh is offline  
#38 of 58 Old 01-15-2009, 01:11 AM
 
Veritaserum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Utah
Posts: 1,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eresh View Post
Since DS's birth I've learned about Hypnobabies and I'm honestly torn about whether I want to do it or not. I don't want to experience less, if that makes any sense. Of course "missing" several hours of my labor probably qualifies as experiencing less too. I think I probably will try Hypnobabies next time around .. that and visiting a chiropractor to see if I can do something about my hips.
I felt like I experienced my births more when I used hypnosis. I find pain to be disorienting and I tend to cope by removing myself mentally from the experience. I had a HUGE disconnect during my first baby's (painful) birth.

I'm one who can't wrap my brain around good pain. Hypnobabies doesn't make for sensation-less childbirth, lol. It simply fills the gap between positive expectations and comfortable childbirth. The hypno-anesthesia techniques made an enormously positive impact for me.

Homeschooling Mom of 5 dds reading.gif

Planning my fifth natural birth using Hypnobabies for baby boy coming in June 2012! nocirc.gif

Veritaserum is offline  
#39 of 58 Old 01-15-2009, 08:29 PM
 
~Sarah~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eresh View Post
Since DS's birth I've learned about Hypnobabies and I'm honestly torn about whether I want to do it or not. I don't want to experience less, if that makes any sense.
I haven't given birth yet, but I'm studying hypnobabies and I look at it this way: I've had about a thousand root canals in my life (too many to count), and it hurts before I get Novocaine. All I feel is hurt and aching until that shot goes in my gums. Then, when I'm "numb" I feel everything he's doing, so much that I could talk you through every single step of how to perform one and I've never even seen a video of it. I don't feel pain, but I still feel everything else. If I didn't get the shot, I would feel STOPITOMGITHURTS!!!!!! And that's all I would feel or remember, not the interesting cool experience of having the nerve of my tooth drilled out and filled back up.

With HBabies, the goal is to feel everything as pressure, not pain. So imagine feeling every pressure wave (AKA contraction) and being able to tell how it's squeezing on baby, how it pushed baby down a little bit more, how baby turned or squirmed during the last one, etc. Wouldn't that be cool? Instead of just "oh no, here's another minute of pain!" ?
~Sarah~ is offline  
#40 of 58 Old 01-15-2009, 09:44 PM
 
Thefrawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Sound, WA
Posts: 201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A birth instructor once asked me the difference between pain and suffering. It is an interesting concept. Childbirth is painful because of the changes to our muscles and such. Our perception of that pain is what leaves the lasting memory.

I spent a lot of time thinking on this concept, and it really helped me to understand the process and my part in it. This is pain to accept and allow, not to tense up and try to fight. And it did hurt, but I could see the end of every contraction, and could see myself getting closer to the goal. And once I had my son in my arms, I couldn't remember the pain (gotta love those endorphins!!!)

Staring another labor in the face, I can't believe that I did it naturally the last time. I am not looking forward to another day of pain. But I will do it again and try to remember the principles of birthing again. It was totally worth the work the last time, and will be again.

I hope you find peace in your decision, and excellent support and coping measures if you do decide to do it again.

I think, If it were easy, it wouldn't be life changing!
Thefrawg is offline  
#41 of 58 Old 01-15-2009, 11:08 PM
 
~Sarah~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefrawg View Post
I think, If it were easy, it wouldn't be life changing!
This is actually one of the things that HBabies reprograms your thinking about: why can't it be easy? Parents who decide to adopt and really luck out and don't have to wait or go through any difficult hoops or anything still have their lives changed by becoming parents, right? I mean, growing a baby inside you for 9 months and then feeling it painlessly pass through your birth canal and into the world to live and grow is pretty powerful and life-changing, even for those women who didn't even know that they were pregnant in the first place until the baby slipped out into their sweatpants!

I think that it's true that "anything worth having is worth working for" but that doesn't have to mean that anything that's meaningful has to be difficult, you know? I really feel all women *deserve* to have easy pregnancies and births (I think we all feel that way!), but unfortunately that just can't be the way it is all the time, and usually because of reasons that are out of mom's control. But that doesn't mean that those sucky situations will happen to everyone, or that all births need to be sucky to some degree, right?
~Sarah~ is offline  
#42 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 12:22 AM
 
Eresh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gainesville, VA
Posts: 776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefrawg View Post
A birth instructor once asked me the difference between pain and suffering. It is an interesting concept. Childbirth is painful because of the changes to our muscles and such. Our perception of that pain is what leaves the lasting memory.
I hadn't thought of it in that manner, but now that you bring it up I would say I definitely felt a lot of pain, but I was not suffering. I took the Bradley class and worked on coping through relaxation. Unfortunately it took labor to reveal to me that deep relaxation is really not the best mechanism for me (at least not with my hips the way they were). Once I figured out how to go my own way, things, while painful and intense, were not overwhelming.

Speaking of root canals, I had one a few months after DS's birth and I did do deep relaxation for that and it helped a lot (except when they accidentally covered my mouth and nose with a rubber dam ...) because for me the worse part of dentistry is psychological. I hate the sounds and the numbed up tugging/pulling/vibrating and I absolutely hate, hate, hate anything that obstructs my breathing. These are just two completely different experiences. I used deep relaxation to cope with the fear associated with having a root canal. I didn't have any fear associated with birthing that I needed to cope with, only the physical sensations themselves. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, so I hope it makes sense.

Loving DH geek.gif, raising DS1 learning.gif(01/08) and DS2 bfinfant.gif(10/10), caring for cat.gif x 3 .
Eresh is offline  
#43 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
jennica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,792
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Sarah~ View Post
With HBabies, the goal is to feel everything as pressure, not pain. So imagine feeling every pressure wave (AKA contraction) and being able to tell how it's squeezing on baby, how it pushed baby down a little bit more, how baby turned or squirmed during the last one, etc. Wouldn't that be cool? Instead of just "oh no, here's another minute of pain!" ?
But see, I've given birth, and it was the worst pain imaginable. It was terrifying, traumatizing, overwhelming pain. How can I convince myself that birth wont be painful when I know that on a scale from 1 - 10, birth is 1000. I can't really lie to myself that way, my mind and body know better. Does hypnobabies address this dilemma? Because I truly would like to know how to convince myself that it wont be painful, or just as painful, but I can't do that because I know it was painful. It's like eating chocolate ice cream and then telling myself it wasn't chocolate, it was vanilla. How does one do such a thing?
jennica is offline  
#44 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
jennica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,792
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefrawg View Post
I think, If it were easy, it wouldn't be life changing!
Life changing is good. Traumatizing, not so good. When pain is suffering, there are long term traumatizing effects. I experienced pain as suffering. It certainly was life changing, but not in a good way. I wasn't traumatized by just the pain, but the pain was one big factor.
jennica is offline  
#45 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 06:16 AM
 
Kidzaplenty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Writing my Happily Ever After
Posts: 16,983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have no fear of birth, of contractions, of labor in any way. But I do have pain when I am in labor. I relax through the pain, knowing it is a short period of time and will be over, and that I am working toward something wonderful. Yet, there is no way I can rationalize away the sensation, because, for me, it is not a pleasant experience. It hurts. A lot.

But I do not fear it. It is not because I have an expectation of pain, because I usually don't. And my labors are usually short but intense. So by the end, I can tell how close I am by how intense it is. I look forward to the intensity, because it tells me I am almost to holding my baby.

But it is still painful, in the end.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
Kidzaplenty is offline  
#46 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 06:54 AM
 
~Sarah~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennica View Post
But see, I've given birth, and it was the worst pain imaginable. It was terrifying, traumatizing, overwhelming pain. How can I convince myself that birth wont be painful when I know that on a scale from 1 - 10, birth is 1000. I can't really lie to myself that way, my mind and body know better. Does hypnobabies address this dilemma? Because I truly would like to know how to convince myself that it wont be painful, or just as painful, but I can't do that because I know it was painful. It's like eating chocolate ice cream and then telling myself it wasn't chocolate, it was vanilla. How does one do such a thing?
Surgery without chemical anesthesia would be, I imagine, comparable to the worst pain imaginable, right? Severing nerves with a scalpel is, by all means, supposed to cause pain. But there are well-documented cases of people using self-hypnosis to go through surgery without any sort of chemicals at all, whatsoever-----or pain. So hypnosis must work, at least for some people, albeit with a lot of practice.

And that's the thing about HBabies---as many PPs have mentioned, it's not at all about trying to lie to yourself, or convince yourself you won't feel anything. It's about reprogramming your thought process and retraining your brain to not expect pain, just pressure. Many many many women have had extremely painful, traumatic births before they seek out HBabies----usually because they don't want to go through that again! And they are, many many times, able to go on to experience literally pain-free births (NOT pressure-free, discomfort-free, work-free ones). I can't personally explain the science of how this works, because the brain is something that's way too complicated for me to understand like that. But some women have already, in this thread, attested that it is the case with them. Their experience is every bit as real as everyone else's, right? And I assume none of them have any reason to lie and say their experience was peachy if it wasn't, so I can only take their testaments as proof.

I think one of the keys to their experiences is that they went into their HBabies/HBirthing study with the idea that it can be better than last time(s). That doesn't guarantee that their birth will be pain-free or even better than last time, but they are at least allowing for the possibility that it will be. Most women say that no two births are the same, even varying radically in the same woman from birth-to-birth. One birth can be horrible, and the next pleasant and easy and quick (without anything being different---no hypnosis, nothing).

But no doubt about it----if one is unable or unwilling to budge in the idea that pain is unavoidable in birth, then it truly is unavoidable. They will have pain. How can it not be painful when the association is "birth automatically and always means the worst pain ever?" There's no room for anything else. That's self-programming-----what HBabies is based on, in reverse.
~Sarah~ is offline  
#47 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 12:41 PM
 
Romana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennica View Post
But see, I've given birth, and it was the worst pain imaginable. It was terrifying, traumatizing, overwhelming pain. How can I convince myself that birth wont be painful when I know that on a scale from 1 - 10, birth is 1000. I can't really lie to myself that way, my mind and body know better. Does hypnobabies address this dilemma? Because I truly would like to know how to convince myself that it wont be painful, or just as painful, but I can't do that because I know it was painful. It's like eating chocolate ice cream and then telling myself it wasn't chocolate, it was vanilla. How does one do such a thing?
I think that I would approach this from the perspective of "Yes, that birth was extremely painful. It does not dictate what will happen during this birth. And I have the freedom to choose relief if needed. But Birth #1 does not own Birth #2. All births are different. This birth can be different."

I may try hypnosis myself . . . bottom line, birth is inevitable. I have choices about how it can be done. I choose natural for the health of me & the baby. I choose hypnobabies (perhaps) to prepare for the physical experience of birth. I have my own permission to choose intervention at any time that it is needed for me or the baby. I think I would try to focus on the "medical necessity" aspect of pain relief. I believe that traumatizing pain creates a medical necessity for pain relief (though it's ok, of course, if the patient still wishes to refuse it). I still believe that it's possible for me to have a painless birth - reason being that each birth is different. I can't count on anything, really. Each birth is unique and unpredictable. So I can create the mental space to have that possibility. Working through that door, I can perhaps see how the hypnosis suggestions might gain some ground.
Romana is offline  
#48 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 12:52 PM
 
Romana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mostly jays View Post
While physiological issues contribute to childbirth in a big way, I wonder how the responses to those stimuli (ie. baby positioning, confidence level of mom, her family, her care providers, surroundings and things being done to her and for her) play into how a mom gives birth?

I think finding a place to give birth, where a mom is supported in trusting her body is most helpful.
I think that these sorts of things can help, but they can't prevent the really, really horrible pain. My second birth was a home waterbirth with supportive family, doula, midwife . . . certainly didn't help prevent an astonishing level of pain, and I would honestly be offended if anyone suggested that it was so painful because I wasn't feeling supported, or was having some sort of personal or emotional issue that I wasn't aware of. Everything was great and uncomplicated. It just really effing hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefrawg View Post
A birth instructor once asked me the difference between pain and suffering. It is an interesting concept. Childbirth is painful because of the changes to our muscles and such. Our perception of that pain is what leaves the lasting memory.
I think the pain vs. suffering argument can be made for the normal pain of childbirth. It doesn't hold true for an exceptionally excruciating birth, or when something else odd happens during labor. For example, for me birth #1 was difficult and ended up being "suffering" in my mind because I was in transition for 7.5 hours. That was very unpleasant and although I definitely could have handled an hour of that, handling 7.5 hours of it was unbearable. For birth #2, it's simply impossible to experience that kind of pain and not be suffering. It's not a mental thing anymore, it's not a positive thing, heck you're lucky if you can remember you're having a baby or manage to have a single coherent thought when you're in that much pain.

The reason I keep trying to illuminate the differences between the normal pain of childbirth and an excruciating birth is because that's what Jennica is talking about. It cannot be rated on the 1-10 pain scale, as she said. After the birth of #2, I said that I couldn't use the pain scale anymore unless I didn't include birth, because if I include birth then everything else is a "1."
Romana is offline  
#49 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
jennica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,792
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romana9+2 View Post
The reason I keep trying to illuminate the differences between the normal pain of childbirth and an excruciating birth is because that's what Jennica is talking about. It cannot be rated on the 1-10 pain scale, as she said. After the birth of #2, I said that I couldn't use the pain scale anymore unless I didn't include birth, because if I include birth then everything else is a "1."
Exactly. This was actual suffering. I think it's harder to get past pain like that and tell myself I wont have pain, or don't have to have pain, or I can somehow trick my mind to do it without feeling the pain. It's going to take some work, that is for sure.
jennica is offline  
#50 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 08:13 PM
 
~Sarah~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romana9+2 View Post
I think the pain vs. suffering argument can be made for the normal pain of childbirth. It doesn't hold true for an exceptionally excruciating birth, or when something else odd happens during labor.
<snip>
The reason I keep trying to illuminate the differences between the normal pain of childbirth and an excruciating birth is because that's what Jennica is talking about. It cannot be rated on the 1-10 pain scale, as she said. After the birth of #2, I said that I couldn't use the pain scale anymore unless I didn't include birth, because if I include birth then everything else is a "1."
I don't know if anything but a spinal or general anesthesia can help with those births, though, right? Those are the births where women get the epidural and still feel everything, I'm guessing. I'd call that "Something's Wrong Pain" and no, HBabies doesn't deal with that because it's not "normal" childbirth pain, it's let-you-know-something's-wrong pain. HBabies is for normal, run-of-the-mill, everyday, billions-of-women-do-it pain. So it sucks, but I don't think HBabies could have helped you, Jennica, with that birth, and if the next one is going to be like that again because of some unaddressed/unfixable physical issue, then HBbabies just won't work for you. I hope you can figure out what it was that made it so bad (like you said, a possible abruption, tipped uterus, etc) and that the issue is correctable so you can go on to have more bearable births.

The other thing is that after over a decade of self-programming that childbirth will be excruciating because your periods are that way (you said since you were 11, right?) it would take a very, very long time to reprogram yourself not to believe that anymore. You said yourself that once a month, since you were 11, you (unconsciously) trained yourself to believe "if this is just shedding blood, and it hurts this bad, then childbirth will be a million times worse because a baby is a million times bigger than a blood clot." That became your Truth and Reality. You'd have to start HBabies long before you ever got pregnant and stick with it every single day, and most people would get burned out on that by the time birth came. And, you'd have to do all that while trying to let go of the notion that you're "tricking" yourself as well (which is definitely not what moms using HBabies are doing---they're not lying to themselves).

Unfortunately, I don't think (as a PP mentioned) that it will work for your periods, because they're not childbirth. There might be another system out there for more generalized hypno-anesthesia, though, that could work for that, and if you found success with it, maybe it would change your perspective about HBabies.

That's also why HBabies doesn't really work for much except childbirth---because all of the scripts and suggestions and training focuses on *childbirth pain* being just pressure. It doesn't give any suggestions or programming for tooth pain, surgery pain, headaches, etc. It's all very "my birthing time will be easy and comfortable" and periods, root canals and headaches aren't your birthing time. Given, relaxation can help with those kinds of pain, but HBabies isn't trying to be a replacement for Advil or Novocaine. It's very focused and specific.

I hope you can find a solution to your dilemma before your next baby! No one deserves to have such a traumatizing birth experience!
~Sarah~ is offline  
#51 of 58 Old 01-16-2009, 08:49 PM
 
bobandjess99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northern IN
Posts: 5,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i agree with a number of things that have been said....especially what romana says about the difference between just bad pain and awful, off the scale, traumatizing pain being absolutely un-understandable if you haven't had one of the OMG awful labors.

I NOW believe that birth is godawful for some women..one of them being me.
I went into my first birth without fear..was even mocked a bit by my midwife for believeing it wouldn't hurt, because i BELIEVED it wouldn't hurt...and OMG..it hurt!
I know that it didn't hurt just because I thought it would because A) I DIDN'T believe it would hurt, at least not very much...at most, i was expecting "manageable discomfort and pressure".....B) I was woken from a sound sleep with a godawful contraction that HURT...I know I wasn't thinking myself in pain while I was sleeping, so there you go.....C) I could NOT have imagined the pain I was in because honestly, prior to experienceing it, I could not have IMAGINED, not even come close to conceiving that such awful agony could exist. I would have though that the level of pain a human could experience before DYING from it was like.....1/10 of the amount of pain I had in labor. D) I too have awful PMS pain...I have felt my cervix dilate, painfully, excruciatingly, since my teens..every month, or whenever I got my period, as they were irregular from what I know now is PCOS, I would get awful, screamingly debilitating pain as I felt my cervix wrenching open.... so it makes no sense at all to me that it would hurt like hell while dilating to 1 cm to let blood out, it would hurt like hell, but then somehow magically not hurt while dilating to 10ish to let a baby out? Looking back, I still don't know what I was thinking, believing it wouldn't hurt too much...but i had REALLY believed the natural birth dogma.....

so..there are all those reasonsor my first birth..and then you have my second birth....it took a long time to get through my first birth, the ptsd, depression, etc..but I did....we TTc'ed, finally got our BFP! YAY!! I was SOOOO confident it would be SO much easier.....everyone says the second is easier, right? Plus, i thought I had so much going for me...first, it was the second birth, I had already successfully (if success is measured in the fact that tha baby physicaly exited out of my vagina) given birth to a large, almost 9 pound baby, so I knew my pelvis was "proven", and I knew from the BMJ study my chances of needing a section this time around were about 1.6%.....pretty damn good odds, right? So my stress was almost nil...And then, the fact that is was *almost* guaranteed to be a shorter birth..statistically, second births are shorter, across the board....and I thought even if it ended up being bad again, at least it would be bad for a shorter amount of time, right? And most importantly, I had found a "cure" for my awful PMS!!!! I had found out I was shockingly low in calcium and magnesium, and had hypersupplemented to the point where my awful, excruciating period pain was GONE!!! I would have 1 day of minor discomfort, and that was it each cycle. So it follows that my birth would also be proportionally less painful, right? The uterine miscle was seemingly much better nourished with vitamins and minerals, I took my cal-mag and RRL religiously..I read the hypnobabies, but I will admit I did not truly complete the course, just some of the more basic relaxation exercises, as well as bithing from within.....I took SUCH good care of myself, I went to prenatal exercise classes faithfully..I was in GOOD physical shape....and then ds's labor slammed me.....and it was H*E*L*L all over again. Not the same amount of pain as the first...WORSE. WAY, worse...traumatizing beyond description...I could *feel* my mind start to break...I was FRANTIC..in the truest, most superlative sense of the word..ever seen a trapped, injured animal? that absolutely panicked, frantic look? that is how I felt...the word torture is thrown around lightly sometimes, but honestly, I felt tortured. Desperate. Helpless. at the mercy of merciless, mind-exploding pain that just wouldn't stop, nothing I did could get it to stop.....I'm almost panicking right now thinging about it..is that coming across in my writing? Because I can barely breathe here....
And to top it ALL off......ds was a tiny little 5 lb bugger. not some giant spawn, just a lil guy.

nothing I did worked.....not the the nutrition, the exercise, the hypnosis or mental preparation.....now, it was technically shorter(10 hours), but not nearly as short as I had believed it was going to be....for some reason, a bunch of my friends were having babies right before I had ds, and the 6 hour second labor seemed to be what everyone else had, even women who had had much longer first labors than mine (16 hours)..so I think I did fixate a little on the 6 hour labor....mine ended up being 10 hours....not horribly long, but not short either, and much longer than I had hoped for. also, what I realized was...it didn't really matter...even 1 second of that level of pain is beyond description....even if you *only* have that kind of pain for 6 hours, or 1 hour, or 6 minutes...while you are *IN* that kind of pain, you don't care...1 second is too long to be in that kind of pain.

I'm honestly not sure where to go from here..I do want more kids someday..but to be very honest, I do not think I will ever go into birth again without at least the option of pain relief available....I just don't know how much my mind can take before shattering. i was ...so close.... to just complete mental breakdown during ds's birth. I do not see that lightly, or facetiously........

I'm not sure ....at this point, the best I am able to do is share my story...I have no answers....no help other than just commiseration......

CPST
bobandjess99 is offline  
#52 of 58 Old 01-17-2009, 01:56 AM
 
MinneapolisMidwife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank you for sharing your childbirth experience. I believe that experiencing natural childbirth can be transformational and help a woman as she gives birth to herself as a mother. However, each woman experiences childbirth in her own unique way and natural childbirth can be overwhelming and traumatic. I hope you will carefully consider what your options are for your next birth. An epidural might really be a blessing.
MinneapolisMidwife is offline  
#53 of 58 Old 01-17-2009, 01:57 AM
 
AngelBee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Brighton, MN
Posts: 20,762
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
:

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

AngelBee is offline  
#54 of 58 Old 01-18-2009, 03:52 AM
 
Marlet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Closer to home..
Posts: 9,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I haven't read all the posts but have seen this thread more than once. My first birth sucked ass. Sorry but it did. Not only was DD1 faceup but her head was tipped in a way that her forhead was presenting. Not a pleasant experience. Her birth turned horrible after we transferred in for pain killer. It was enough that I was set on having an only child. Then came DD2. Surprise! I was worried throughout pregnancy that her labour/birth would be the same. I wouldn't say I was afraid since I knew more about posture and other various things (I think that and inducing myself didn't allow DD1 to turn into a good position but I digress) and was pretty sure she was in a favorable position. Her labour was a breeze. After shew as born I thought long and hard about it. Was it that way because I had such a horrible first experience, so anything would be better? Or was it truely better because it wasn't as painful, without or without DD1's birth memories? I think it's the latter. I still expected some pain but I also knew what to expect of myself, make sense? Since I knew what I liked and didn't like and was more forceful in getting what I wanted/needed it put the pain in perspective. I admit I waited for my whole labour (10 hours) for the other shoe to drop. It never really came. I had a chance to meet Laura Shanley (I have unassisted births) and see some videos and read her book. As we (dh and I) were leaving her house the first thing he said was, "Can you do that? Those women believed they had no pain. Can you do that?". He asked me that a few times for the rest of the pregnancy and while it irritated me (I'm an ornry gal! ) it stuck with me. I remember saying to myself a few times during labour, "this doesn't hurt...it's pressure. It's needed.". It didn't stop any feelings I was having but it helped make them managable. I don't buy into the "pressure" idea of contractions but it helped to have that reminder. I think pain gets wrapped up in such a negative light that you instantly tense into it. Pressure doesn't have those same conotations though (IMO). Saying pressure, while still feeling possible pain, can sort of reset your brain (for lack of a better way of describing this ), sort of refocus you.

All this to say, I would classify my labour/birth as painless. Yeah sure there was uncomfortable feelings but they were just that...uncomfortable. I'm not sure I've worded this very well. DD2's birth is hard to get into words for me for some reason.

Give more**Expect Less
There is no such thing as bad weather. Only bad clothing.
Marlet is offline  
#55 of 58 Old 01-23-2009, 02:55 AM
 
dearmama22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
for those of you who said your birth was very very painful, did you still do it naturally? With no medication?
dearmama22 is offline  
#56 of 58 Old 01-23-2009, 04:11 AM
 
Sarah W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Dupont, WA
Posts: 1,128
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dearmama22 View Post
for those of you who said your birth was very very painful, did you still do it naturally? With no medication?
No, I didn't.

Here's my experience. I had no idea what to expect going into birth. I was surrounded by women who had fairly positive birth experiences. I was really excited and not worried about labor at all. I knew there would be pain, but I did Hypnobabies and was really looking forward to labor.

FFW to being in labor. It was pretty much what I had expected, except it started about an hour after I went to bed. I wasn't counting on being exhausted. I was fine, and working things out just like I'd planned and prepped for. We called the Dr when we were "supposed to" and then stayed at home until the contraction were a minute apart. Waited another hour then went in. I was only 1 cm dilated. They didn't send me home because I was contracting so often.

Honestly, I underestimated how important the mental part was. When she told me I was only 1 cm dilated, I felt like she had kicked me in the teeth. I was coping until then.

I ended up getting an epidural after a couple more hours. I couldn't feel anything, they had to tell me when my contractions were so I could push.

I fell asleep immediately after getting it. That 1-2 hrs of sleep made a HUGE difference not just in the birth but the rest of the evening afterward.

Do I regret the epidural? Not at all. I don't think that not feeling pain while I was pushing made it any less rewarding. It's still tough and tiring. Plus, it wore off and I had plenty time to be sore for the next few days.

Will I try to go natural next time? Yes I will. I think you have to weigh the benefits vs the risk and make the best decision. I got to the point where I felt that the epidural was worth it.
Sarah W is offline  
#57 of 58 Old 01-23-2009, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
jennica's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,792
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dearmama22 View Post
for those of you who said your birth was very very painful, did you still do it naturally? With no medication?
I had Nubain. I asked for it about 1 hour into the 3 hours at the hospital before birth, and I got it at about 2 hours in. It was a horrible wait... However, the Nubain didn't take the pain away, it just contained it like a tub presumably would have.
jennica is offline  
#58 of 58 Old 01-23-2009, 09:25 PM
 
bobandjess99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northern IN
Posts: 5,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dearmama22 View Post
for those of you who said your birth was very very painful, did you still do it naturally? With no medication?
Yes, i was at home UC, my only other option was to go to the hospital with "no prenatal care" and run through that whole course....nothing short of a true medical emergency could have made me transfer....even though killing myself seemed like a very reasonable option....

CPST
bobandjess99 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off