S/O Ownership of Birth Language - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 01:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ceinwen View Post
Personally, while I would try to use the terminology most comfortable for the mother, it's (as a pp mentioned) difficult to use different terms for each birth, according to what that individual wants.

Mostly, if someone wants to refer to contractions as 'hugs' or 'rushes' I'll just avoid saying anything to name the contraction. It's easier to not say it, than to try and remember what they wanted.
Exactly! There's really no reason to use a specific word, rather just avoid ones that may be unpleasant. If you're thinking about it, it's really pretty easy to ask the same questions in relatively generic language. "So, how are things going in here? Things picking up at all?" if mom's had a bit of a plateau, rather than, "Are your contractions getting any closer together?"

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And, as the_lissa said, I don't equate contractions with pain. Contracting is what muscles do, it's the mechanism of action.
As I said in another post, I don't remember ever really encountering someone who has a conscious fear or negative connection to the word contraction. Many women said it doesn't really describe the sensation they felt. But everyone pretty much knows what it is and means. But that doesn't mean that their subconscious hasn't been soaking in a lifetime of stories that talk about the "painful contractions" people experienced as part of the birthing process. The result of this disagreement between conscious knowledge and subconscious belief system can be quite fascinating (I love how intricate the human mind can be!)

When we feel a sensation in the body, it is just that - a sensation - it isn't until the nerves send the signal to the mind for interpretation that we "decide" what it is we're feeling. Have you ever cut yourself and just experienced it as a tingling or annoying stinging sensation until you look down and realize what just happened. Then, suddenly, it really hurts! The same thing can happen during a birth for a woman who consciously knows how it works and that the sensations of birth can vary widely from person to person. But even people who don't have a negative association with the word contraction can have a similar reaction as soon as she realizes that the totally comfortable, intermittent sensations of tightening she's been feeling in her abdomen are the same contractions she's heard about in a lifetime of horror stories. Her subconscious belief system states that contractions of the uterus during birth are painful, which can over-ride her conscious knowledge that the experience of birth varies. That causes her to interpret those sensations differently than she had a moment before. For some women, using different terminology to frame her expectations of her birth from what she heard in those horror stories can be very helpful in allowing her to feel only what is ACTUALLY going on in her body, rather than what her mind believes birth feels like.
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#62 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 01:17 PM
 
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Offering up pain meds is bringing up a topic that does not require discussion. Managing pain is the mom's responsibilty. If she wants meds, she can ask. Pain is her issue to deal with. (Unlike say, post-partum hemmorage, which a health care provider must "deal with/ address.")
There is just no need for a nurse to mention pain meds. However, there is some need for nurses to discuss contractions. So it's something that really must be discussed.

In that case, does the Mom have a right to make requests as to how a nurse articulates the idea of "contraction?" My first reaction was, "I dont' think a mom DOES have that right. The way a nurse speaks about something that must be discussed is HER choice." I wasn't certain, but I could see it that way - and hence the fist analogy.
(A mom doesn't have the right to control someone else's vocabulary. The vocabulary of the nurse is HER right to speak how she wants. THAT is where Mom's rights are infringing on nurses' rights.)
But I've since changed my mind anyway.

Clear as mud?
Ok, now I see what you were saying, and while I don't agree with it, the fact that you've changed your mind to some degree and I'd be repeating my own previous posts to explain that disagreement lead me to believe it's not worth rehashing. But thank you for explaining what you meant!
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#63 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 01:23 PM
 
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I think if you are involved in someone's birth as a nurse, doctor, midwife, doula, whatever, then I think you should make the woman as comfortable as you can including using whatever terminology she finds it helpful.

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#64 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 01:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sudonk View Post
Exactly! There's really no reason to use a specific word, rather just avoid ones that may be unpleasant. If you're thinking about it, it's really pretty easy to ask the same questions in relatively generic language. "So, how are things going in here? Things picking up at all?" if mom's had a bit of a plateau, rather than, "Are your contractions getting any closer together?"
That's pretty much exactly what I do. And quite frankly, even if a woman doesn't articulate that certain language is (for lack of a better term - talk about language! ) freaking her out, I can switch gears. Asking generalities leaves her the room to fill in the specifics. That's something I have no issue with...

For comparison sake (although this may be miles off) depending on the patient, I may say 'cardiac event' or even 'myocardial infarct' rather than 'heart attack'. Some people can take it right on the chin, but some people's constitutions indicate that gentler language may be more appropriate. Int his case, actually saying myocardial infarct is more correct than heart attack, but that's besides the point.

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#65 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 01:33 PM
 
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Yes, I did say I can see how a mother does NOT have the right to ask a nurse to change her lexicon. BUT, a mother DOES have the right to ask her to not offer pain meds. Yes, that's what I said.

I know it is contradictory, but here's why I felt that way.

Offering up pain meds is bringing up a topic that does not require discussion. Managing pain is the mom's responsibilty. If she wants meds, she can ask. Pain is her issue to deal with. (Unlike say, post-partum hemmorage, which a health care provider must "deal with/ address.")
There is just no need for a nurse to mention pain meds. However, there is some need for nurses to discuss contractions. So it's something that really must be discussed.

In that case, does the Mom have a right to make requests as to how a nurse articulates the idea of "contraction?" My first reaction was, "I dont' think a mom DOES have that right. The way a nurse speaks about something that must be discussed is HER choice." I wasn't certain, but I could see it that way - and hence the fist analogy.
(A mom doesn't have the right to control someone else's vocabulary. The vocabulary of the nurse is HER right to speak how she wants. THAT is where Mom's rights are infringing on nurses' rights.)
But I've since changed my mind anyway.

Clear as mud?
IME, like I previously stated, I may not be able to follow the exact terminology the client/patient wants, but I can switch to generalities. I've yet to encounter someone that didn't work for.

As far as pain meds, if a birthing woman has specifically asked me not to offer analgesia, I absolutely won't. They know what's available to them through prior discussion with their OB or midwife, and if they ask me not to hinder them (in their mind's eye) in a vulnerable moment, I'll respect that.

However, if I've got someone who hasn't made that request, is writhing in pain, completely out of control and is begging for help - we'll run through non-pharmacological techniques (huge fan of natural birth here - personally wish I'd birthed at home!)... and then I'll confer with the midwife about what their previous discussion re: pain control looked like and let them handle it.

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#66 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 02:02 PM
 
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As far as using "pain" vs "discomfort or pressure" - it seems like pain is so predominant in our language of birth. I think that the pendulum of change is trying to go completely to the other extreme to "discomfort" before it can settle in moderation.
I haven't read past this, but want to say that I find "discomfort" in the mouth of a medical professional one of the most infuriating things they say. I've been told, after eye surgery, that my eye "shouldn't hurt" when I complained of pain, and he very obviously thought I was making it up (why I would, I don't know - having anesthetic drops put in my eyes wasn't much fun, either). I've had doctors and nurses talk to me about the "discomfort" post-op more times than I can count, and it makes me furious. When I'm in tears from the pain, just trying to roll over onto my side so that I can feed my baby, don't you dare give me condescending crap about my "discomfort". AARGH.

I don't know if they just don't like to think of themselves as the cause of pain or what. I've met so many of them who think nothing of admitting that labour and vaginal birth hurt (but not with an epi!), but recovering from a c-section is "uncomfortable". I don't get it.

Anyway - kind of OT, but it really does make me mad.

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#67 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 02:04 PM
 
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Just skimmed a couple more posts. With respect to a nurse, doula, midwife,etc. and the language they use, I see both sides of this. On the one hand, if I were to request that a care provider say "surge" (not that I would) and she insisted on using "contraction", I'd be annoyed. OTOH, if she seemed to be making an effort, but slipped up and said "contraction" a few times, I don't think I would be. I know it's hard to use terms that don't come naturally to one, and a care provider who is changing them all the time could easily slip up (just as I sometimes call dd by ds2's name or vice versa - it happens).

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#68 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 02:08 PM
 
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Just skimmed a couple more posts. With respect to a nurse, doula, midwife,etc. and the language they use, I see both sides of this. On the one hand, if I were to request that a care provider say "surge" (not that I would) and she insisted on using "contraction", I'd be annoyed. OTOH, if she seemed to be making an effort, but slipped up and said "contraction" a few times, I don't think I would be. I know it's hard to use terms that don't come naturally to one, and a care provider who is changing them all the time could easily slip up (just as I sometimes call dd by ds2's name or vice versa - it happens).
Even though I don't like the re-writing of a birth lexicon, I'd do my best to use what a client brought to the table. However, I'm a perfectionist by nature and I'd beat myself up by slipping, especially if it unwound this woman's fragile world.

I'm lucky that I have a few really great doulas who embrace these methods to refer prospective clients to. But every now and then one is insistent that they want me even though I'm honest with how I feel about these methods up front.

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#69 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 02:54 PM
 
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It is amazing to me how unsupportive we are of each other in this community of natural birthers. This thread starts with hurtful language in and of itself. I want to strangle people who use words etc. Why does it bother people so much? If it helps me, how can it be bad. I've never seen anyone who was hurt by it. The feelings of failure come from a false idea of what birth is and not the changing of a word. I changed only the words that I found helpful. I used comfort level instead of pain and birthing time or birth day instead of labor. I find contractions to be an accurate description of the event, but would be effected by "pains". So I changed what is useful to me. I only asked my caregivers to stay away from terms like "pain" "hard labor" etc. I didn't need them telling me it was going to be hard or difficult. I experienced it for what it was without that influence.
I am also saddened when I see people lump all childbirth hypnosis methods into one pile. I have used both Mongan and Hypnobabies and they are completely different methods. I completely agree with everything stated by the instructor above (sorry don't remember your name right now) and won't restate it here. I will however say that I personally believe that people who take the first program often mistake the idea of pain-free with feeling-free. Therefore once they feel the power of birth they are scared and overwhelmed and lose the benefits of the class as they are not prepared to deal with it. My Mongan Birth ended in an epidural but I didn't see it as a failure on my part but I was disappointed with the lack of skills I had. I researched further with my second and used Hypnobabies having a healing wonderful 99% painless birth. I saw painless as a bonus and not the goal. The goal was a positive experience. To that end I used positive language.
Positive language is not something new to me. I was raised to respect the power of words and not wish ill on others or myself. I was taught that words carry power and we can harm one another with them. I choose to use positive language with my children as a major component of my parenting style. I also choose to talk postively with myself during pregnancy and birth and request that those around me do also.
It makes me very sad that people are so upset and angry about something that helps women feel good about their births. It is no less valuable than any tool that you chose to use for you!
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#70 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 02:55 PM
 
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To clarify yet again, I want to strangle people who use those words for my experience. It is dismissive of how I feel and what I want. I think people should respect whatever language other people find helpful/

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#71 of 83 Old 03-10-2009, 03:55 PM
 
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Even when I'm not pregnant, I can't stand watching some of the births in those videos. Some of them are lovely, but others are distressing.
Oh, that just reminded me of a video my Bradley instructor showed. It had Penny Simkin and was, of course, about natural birth. There was one birth that seemed to be in a hospital & the doc (?) YANKED the baby out of the vagina. He was SO ROUGH in pulling that baby out. It made me angry.

I've said about this before, I would have had a difficult time not responding in kind to such violent treatment of my newborn. To be more blunt, I'd have kicked him!!!

But it just made me make sure that was another thing on my birth plan so I wasn't surprised by this.
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#72 of 83 Old 03-11-2009, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Sudonk--

To clarify, I DO think it is fine and very positive for families to ASK for care providers to use particular words/avoid others. I think it is fine and very positive to ask for anything you want! I'm a firm believer in asking for what you want--and for persisting in getting it where necessary...a BIG fan of assertiveness.

And I WOULD caution any family about having too rigid of expectations about care providers always using the chosen words--would caution any family to realize in advance that their labor-handling plan cannot hinge upon everyone's use of particular words. It is good, IMO, to gently correct people: for instance when they say contraction, I might without resentment, just simply say 'surges'--a reminder. In fact I might tell helpers in advance of a plan to use a certain technique involving certain words, ask for their participation, and also say that I will probably help them help me by reminding them when they forget my preferred words.

OTOH--if I were faced with birth helpers who tried to insist on having it 'their way'--persistently offering pain relief, for instance--then I would probably ask them to leave and not come back to my birthing space. As a mw and sometimes doula, I would have no problem supporting parents in this....nor in being corrected/reminded by parents when *I* forget to use their preferred terms.

And still....one has to be firmly grounded in one's own reality and definitions, enough not to be totally rattled because some people say 'contrax' or 'hard labor'.

hope this clarifies.
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#73 of 83 Old 03-11-2009, 12:30 PM
 
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Thank you for the clarification, MsBlack. What you described is exactly what I have seen families request and expect. They are looking for support, not perfection. In fact, the only "rigidity" surrounding birth language I've seen has been on this thread, and it was all theoretical. I'm sure it has happened somewhere at some time, but it is not the teaching of an method I know, nor handled that way by any families I have encountered.

For what it's worth, I've never really known anyone to get "totally rattled" by hearing "contractions" or "hard labor". It's nice to avoid them because, as Laura said, it can be unnecessarily distracting at a time when she wants to be focusing elsewhere.

The only times I'm aware of someone's language really throwing a birthing mom off-course, it was much more suggestive terminology, like a laughing comment made by a triage nurse that a mom who was doing beautifully, "wasn't in enough pain to be making any real progress" and therefore needed to for a walk for an hour or two instead of being checked in. Needless to say, she ate some crow when the mom stepped out of the bathroom with her baby crowning a few minutes later. A successful, unmedicated birth, yes. But the first time mother, whose instincts told her to get to the place where she wanted to give birth, experienced several minutes of unnecessary self-doubt and panic because of the "authority figure" telling her that she was wrong to think she was close to having her baby because she wasn't in pain.
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#74 of 83 Old 03-11-2009, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am with you 100% on all that....

My first birth was a homebirth with a Family Practice Doc supposed to 'catch'. He only just managed to be there for my daughter's birth, because in my earlier calls to him, he just didn't believe I was 'hurtin enough' or 'having hard enough pains' to be far along. I was just an overexcited 1st time mom to him! My final words to him, through my dh since I was *very* busy at the time--"tell him if he doesn't come now, he'll miss it--I have to push!".

My method had be more or less hypnobabies (before the day)--tho I found the Doc's order "breathe don't push" nearly impossible to follow! I did breathe my little girl down for the 45 min I had to wait for Doc, but I sure had to fight the ejection reflex to do so. But no, I never was in pain for that birth.

As for people getting rattled when others mispeak--no, not everyone is going to. I never really did, during my 6 labors. It's just that there is that potential when anyone makes a plan they need to be *strictly* followed.

Supermamabug--I much appreciate your remarks, thanks for saying that. I very much agree that it is a GOOD thing for us use the power of our words and thoughts (as well as actions) to create experiences in our lives that we enjoy, that are satisfying, safe, happy. And, I would add, it's a good thing to use that power too, to help ourselves to integrate and grow through experiences that were not so enjoyable!
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#75 of 83 Old 03-12-2009, 11:49 AM
 
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I am with you 100% on all that....
My method had be more or less hypnobabies (before the day)--tho I found the Doc's order "breathe don't push" nearly impossible to follow! I did breathe my little girl down for the 45 min I had to wait for Doc, but I sure had to fight the ejection reflex to do so. But no, I never was in pain for that birth.
Wow, 45 minutes of fighting the ejection reflex is very impressive! I definitely would have had issues with that. I'm sorry he didn't trust your instincts and arrive much sooner. I'm bet you made him re-think things a bit the next time a woman told him she was ready for him to show up!

This is totally off-topic, but something I've thought about often lately. I think what you said about "more or less" doing Hypnobabies on your own is very accurrate, and true of many naturally birthing women. I've been trying to get this into the head of one of our local homebirth midwives. Many women can and do have comfortable, controlled and enjoyable births, and she contends that they do so by getting into a "birthing zone" that helps them focus and work with their body. I agree with her 100%, but I also know that for me personally, I didn't have the information, background or trust in myself, my baby, my body or the process to find what I need to do during the birth to achieve that on my own. Heck, I went into my first pregnancy hoping I'd need a c-section so I wouldn't have to experience vaginal birth at all! But Hypnobabies gave me, a total neophite to the birthing world, wonderfully effective tools that allowed me to learn to enter the "birthing zone" at will, so I could birth my babies in calm, focused splendor, rather than the medical fog I would have been in without it. She supports women using Hypnobabies, but does so grudgingly. And when she sees a beautiful Hypnobabies birth (and her assistants tell me she has ONLY seen beautiful births for women using Hypnobabies), she completely discredits Hypnobabies and claims that these women just happened to find that "zone". I don't know if she'll ever understand that Hypnobabies is just that - a method of learning to consciously reach that zone whenever it is needed, rather than just jumping into birth with a bagful of comfort techniques and a hope of achieving it at some point during the course of the birth. I guess that's why I just don't understand why so many NCB-supportive moms and caregivers respond so negatively to the idea of using self-hypnosis for birth. The vast majority of moms who have gentle, enjoyable births do exactly that, just without using that term! I realize that some very flawed older programs have discredited the entire concept of birth hypnosis. But I hope it is only a matter of time before truly complete and effective self-hypnosis approaches are no longer painted with the same brush as the poorly written, incomplete and rigidly unsupportive, old-fashioned guided relaxation programs.


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As for people getting rattled when others mispeak--no, not everyone is going to. I never really did, during my 6 labors. It's just that there is that potential when anyone makes a plan they need to be *strictly* followed.
Agreed. But in my experience, I've never run across someone who saw the language as anything more than a desired preference. Nothing "strict" about it. I have only encountered that presumed rigidity in the complaints of those who don't understand or support the use of different birth terminology.


Thanks again for telling me your first birth story. I'm still smiling over the wisdom you were able to impart as a young, inexperienced mom to a caregiver who considered himself to be the authority on birth. It reminds me that the only one who can ever claim to be the expert on a birth is the woman who is experiencing it at that moment.
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Wow, 45 minutes of fighting the ejection reflex is very impressive! I definitely would have had issues with that. I'm sorry he didn't trust your instincts and arrive much sooner. I'm bet you made him re-think things a bit the next time a woman told him she was ready for him to show up!
Someone mentioned not imagining a woman not being able to breathe her baby down previously in this thread. That would be me. I have such incredible pushing reflexes that I can't not push when my body has those final contractions. It was most powerful with my last birth where I had no pain meds. 4 pushes, baby flies out, provider almost dropped her because she came out so fast and took a left hook. So while the idea of breathing a baby out like one would a bowel movement sounds really nice to me, my body just won't do it. With all 3 births I've had uncontrollable urges to push, even with the first two being births with epidurals.

I've seen women with such powerful birthing reflexes that the power of if scares them. They cry out that they can't fight the urge, they can't stop pushing. They're not being told they can't, they just weren't mentally ready to go there and/or mentally ready for the power. One of the "hypno" clients was one of them. That wasn't the way they told her it would be. She could just sit back and breathe as her baby slipped out of her body. But the power of her body, the demand that she follow that urge was completely mind blowing and distracting and I'd even go so far as to say it was downright scary for her. She was totally unprepared.

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This is totally off-topic, but something I've thought about often lately. I think what you said about "more or less" doing Hypnobabies on your own is very accurrate, and true of many naturally birthing women. I've been trying to get this into the head of one of our local homebirth midwives. Many women can and do have comfortable, controlled and enjoyable births, and she contends that they do so by getting into a "birthing zone" that helps them focus and work with their body. I agree with her 100%, but I also know that for me personally, I didn't have the information, background or trust in myself, my baby, my body or the process to find what I need to do during the birth to achieve that on my own.
My last birth was pleasurable, I wouldn't call it painful over all, but it wasn't painless. The sensations (aka pain) were entirely bearable, confirmed that my body was working, gave me information about where I was in the course of my labor without needing vaginal exams.

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I guess that's why I just don't understand why so many NCB-supportive moms and caregivers respond so negatively to the idea of using self-hypnosis for birth. The vast majority of moms who have gentle, enjoyable births do exactly that, just without using that term! I realize that some very flawed older programs have discredited the entire concept of birth hypnosis. But I hope it is only a matter of time before truly complete and effective self-hypnosis approaches are no longer painted with the same brush as the poorly written, incomplete and rigidly unsupportive, old-fashioned guided relaxation programs.
I have a problem with those programs that equate a enjoyable birth to ones with no pain. You can have an enjoyable birth with pain. Having pain doesn't mean you're doing it wrong, or you've failed to properly learn your program.


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Agreed. But in my experience, I've never run across someone who saw the language as anything more than a desired preference. Nothing "strict" about it. I have only encountered that presumed rigidity in the complaints of those who don't understand or support the use of different birth terminology.
Hi, I'm April, a doula for 8 years and I've met them. Most using that aforementioned "older and poorly written" method. I will say that I by far like the Babies method better than the Birthing one. I'm still not crazy about the language, but I do much prefer the underlying philosophies.

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#77 of 83 Old 03-12-2009, 02:19 PM
 
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Even when I'm not pregnant, I can't stand watching some of the births in those videos. Some of them are lovely, but others are distressing.
Even videos like Orgasmic Birth? Birth as We Know It?

Both videos that my friend the "old method" instructor says she can't use because they mention the word pain.

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#78 of 83 Old 03-12-2009, 07:26 PM
 
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I have a problem with those programs that equate a enjoyable birth to ones with no pain. You can have an enjoyable birth with pain.
I've never given birth, but I've been in labour three times. I enjoyed it every time, and it hurt - it really hurt. It was really exhilarating, though - the pain didn't bother me.

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#79 of 83 Old 03-12-2009, 09:27 PM
 
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Someone mentioned not imagining a woman not being able to breathe her baby down previously in this thread. That would be me. I have such incredible pushing reflexes that I can't not push when my body has those final contractions....
I don't remember reading on this thread anyone saying that everybody should be able to just breathe rather than push. I've experienced the involuntary pushing reflex most unmedicated women experience. There's no stopping it. To say "stop pushing" would be as productive as telling someone to stop throwing up. Not gonna happen.

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I've seen women with such powerful birthing reflexes that the power of if scares them. They cry out that they can't fight the urge, they can't stop pushing. They're not being told they can't, they just weren't mentally ready to go there and/or mentally ready for the power. One of the "hypno" clients was one of them. That wasn't the way they told her it would be. She could just sit back and breathe as her baby slipped out of her body. But the power of her body, the demand that she follow that urge was completely mind blowing and distracting and I'd even go so far as to say it was downright scary for her. She was totally unprepared.
Again, not all hypnosis methods are the same. Hypnobabies, for example, teaches mother-directed pushing. In other words, push when and how your body tells you to push.

Birth sensations can be very powerful and big. I, for one, never care to experience them again without the aid of hypnosis. I was completely overwhelmed by the pain that I could not do anything to help myself. It was so much better for me to be able to actively work with my body due to being free from such debilitating pain.

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My last birth was pleasurable, I wouldn't call it painful over all, but it wasn't painless. The sensations (aka pain) were entirely bearable, confirmed that my body was working, gave me information about where I was in the course of my labor without needing vaginal exams.
My first birth was horribly painful prior to getting an epidural. My hypnosis births never approached that pain. Even without pain, I was able to listen to my body's cues for adopting various positions and such.

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I have a problem with those programs that equate a enjoyable birth to ones with no pain. You can have an enjoyable birth with pain. Having pain doesn't mean you're doing it wrong, or you've failed to properly learn your program.
No one is saying that only painfree births can be enjoyable. I'm not sure why you're reading into our comments that way. For you, you were able to frame your labor pain as a good thing and you found that to be a positive experience. No one is saying that you shouldn't enjoy your birth, even if there is pain. For you, birth can be enjoyable even if it is painful. I'm very glad your experience was positive.

For me and many other women, I enjoy giving birth more when there is little to no pain. I still have lots of powerful birth sensations. I like that I can feel my body working without being in lots of pain because I find pain to be disorienting and negative. That doesn't say anything about you or other women who like to approach birth with the "pain is normal and good" mentality. That's certainly a valid approach as well.

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Even videos like Orgasmic Birth? Birth as We Know It?

Both videos that my friend the "old method" instructor says she can't use because they mention the word pain.
I haven't seen Orgasmic Birth, yet, so I can't comment on it. I like most of Birth as We Know It. It has been almost a year since I last viewed it so I don't remember how much they discussed pain.

Part of how hypnosis methods work is to reframe our beliefs about birth. We are in hypnosis when we watch films, so it can be detrimental to watch videos with a strong "pain is a necessary part of birth" message, since it's more likely that you will experience a comfortable birth if you actually believe that type of birth is possible. If you are convinced that birth always has to hurt, then it probably will. Of course there is so much more that goes into a hypnosis method than "if you believe it won't hurt than it won't" ('cause that's just silly--the pain of birth is not in a woman's head), but it doesn't work as well if a woman can't let go of the culturally-ingrained belief that birth is the worst pain imaginable.

Of course, a big problem with these films is that they are too long to show in class!

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I've never given birth, but I've been in labour three times. I enjoyed it every time, and it hurt - it really hurt. It was really exhilarating, though - the pain didn't bother me.
Your exhilarating is another person's nightmare. Maybe you'd hate my comfortable births. We're all unique in what we want out of our birth experiences. I'm glad there are a variety of options so that we can each choose what's best suited for us and our individual preferences.

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#80 of 83 Old 03-12-2009, 09:39 PM
 
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Your exhilarating is another person's nightmare. Maybe you'd hate my comfortable births. We're all unique in what we want out of our birth experiences. I'm glad there are a variety of options so that we can each choose what's best suited for us and our individual preferences.
I doubt I'd hate your births. At this point, I'd settle for any birth at all, just to know I could actually do it.

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#81 of 83 Old 03-12-2009, 11:46 PM
 
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I doubt I'd hate your births. At this point, I'd settle for any birth at all, just to know I could actually do it.
I hope you get your wish.

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#82 of 83 Old 03-13-2009, 01:26 AM
 
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I'm not really sure what to say, April422, since none of your comments seem to have anything to do with me, despite following quotes from me. I birth the same way you do. Lots of strong ejection reflex action. I pushed for 25 seconds with my last baby. It seemed like a LONG time, but I've timed it on the video and it was 25 very powerful, no-way-I-couldn't-push seconds. I'm not a "breathing baby down" person, so I don't have anything to add about that perspective except to say that it's not something I teach.

I also don't equate enjoyable births and pain-free births, I don't teach that they are one and the same, and I can't find any place on this thread where I seem to do so. I happen to have very comfortable births, and enjoy them very much. I am completely in-tune with my body in a way that I never could have imagined before giving birth. I didn't have any need for cervical checks during my Hypnobabies births (although I did have one during my first Hypnobabies birth to convince the midwives I really was giving birth - they thought I wasn't in labor yet, but I was actually fully dilated), and was always very confident about what I knew was happening in my body. But I certainly know that there are many ways to enjoy birth, and every woman needs to find that for herself. Totally comfortable births are still very intense and powerful, just not painful. But that doesn't mean everyone can or wants to have a birth like mine.

And I'm also in total agreement with you about programs that teach that pain means you've done something "wrong" or that you can only enjoy birth if it is totally painless from start to finish. Actually, I only know of one program that teaches that, and felt totally screwed over by it when I made the mistake of choosing it for my first birth. Thank God I found a bunch of additional materials that gave me better skills before the birth. Still nothing close to enough childbirth information, but at least some better skills to help me work with my body. So yeah, I'm with you on that, too.

I can't say anything about the people you have met who are strict about their word choices. As I said, that has just never been my experience. But that is probably because I haven't seen any activity surrounding the old method around here in many years. There have been a bunch of 'Birthing instructors in my area, but they all fade out pretty quickly, because none of the midwives will accept their students, and the word of mouth from their students isn't generally very positive. So I have very little experience with people using that, except for my brief foray into that world, and chatting with people on-line.

And I haven't seen Orgasmic Birth yet. I know I've seen Birth As We Know It, but apparently it wasn't very memorable for me, because that is literally all I remember about it. I think maybe I liked it, but really don't remember. There are a couple I've seen and enjoyed, but that doesn't mean I have time to show them in class. Isn't Orgasmic Birth an hour+ long? We have some excellent ones we show of couples using the skills they're learning, and of course that results in them seeing births. I also have some videos available to them in addition to the books in my lending library. But I wouldn't take up class time to show any of them.
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#83 of 83 Old 03-13-2009, 02:27 AM
 
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I'm not really sure what to say, April422, since none of your comments seem to have anything to do with me, despite following quotes from me. I birth the same way you do. Lots of strong ejection reflex action. I pushed for 25 seconds with my last baby. It seemed like a LONG time, but I've timed it on the video and it was 25 very powerful, no-way-I-couldn't-push seconds. I'm not a "breathing baby down" person, so I don't have anything to add about that perspective except to say that it's not something I teach.
we were having a discussion about language and it morphed into a discussion about language and "hypno" methods. I'm just sharing my experiences with it, as are you.

While the language bothers me over all, the "old method" is all we have available around here. I've been reading the Hypnobabies website and I like the core philosophies, still am bothered by the language.

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