Why do people let their OB's "play god"?? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 122 Old 05-08-2009, 06:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fawnanddoe View Post
I have done more research having to do with birth than I probably did throughout all of high school! Because of that I can pull up tons of articles, statistics, I can even go through pros and cons of tons of different things and support those pros and cons with percentages.
There can be another problem. I've also done a ton of research, but I can't do any of that. Between fatigue, "placenta brain", and emotional stress, I don't remember most of that stuff, don't have bookmarks, and couldn't begin to cite statistics. I remember my conclusions, but I don't generally have the data to back them up, anymore. That makes it really hard to make valid points to other people, yk?

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#62 of 122 Old 05-08-2009, 07:54 PM
 
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Hmm. This is a fascinating discussion.

I do think there is an entire birth culture that promotes medicalized birth and an OB-in-charge attitude. I think doctors hold a large part of the blame. Doctors want to be in charge and venerated, and encourage women to leave all the decision making to them, and then are unhappy when they are held accountable for outcomes. Doctors have encouraged generations to believe they had more ability to guarantee an outcome than they actually do, and now that society accepts nothing but a perfect outcome, doctors worry more about lawsuits and continue to practice even more conservatively.

I was never taught how to share decision making with my clients in medical school. I did take a class in communication skills that was elective that has been useful in my later career. I also trained in medical ethics (a year long fellowship) - and in modern medical ethics patient wishes pretty much trumps anything else. Understanding that has been very helpful. My medical training, though, didn't ever consider that a "patient" might not want to do what I suggested, or how that should be addressed, or who is truly in charge and should be making decisions anyway.

There is a lot of resistance to giving up control in the medical field. On the flip side, in my experience as a physician, there is a fair amount of resistance among some of my clients to assuming control of their own medical care. I get a lot of "Just do what you think is best." I've had more than one client transfer away from my practice because they didn't feel I was very decisive. I had several very disappointed dads and grandparents in a birthing room upset that I didn't do more during a birth. (I don't do routine exams while mamas are pushing, I don't use drapes, don't encourage moms to take up the stranded beetle position for my comfort, don't do perineal massage, and don't generally touch anything except baby as needed to prevent him/her from falling, I don't suction babies, I'm minimalist in my drying/rubbing, and generally catch and hand the baby over and step back) I feel like I possess a lot of skills that might be needed in an emergency, and I'm always ready to use them, but if I don't need them, I don't need them, and we all know the majority of births would happen fine if I never did anything. Some folks interpret my lack of whistles and bells, though, as that I don't know what I'm doing. They are looking for outer evidence of competence, and me sitting on the floor knitting is not it for some people!

I'll even admit that I'm more cautious/conservative with these clients that don't want to make choices. I don't have any "deal breakers;" I'm willing to work with clients on a variety of issues. I've attended women who chose not to have pretty much any of the "standard of care." But women who say "whatever you think is best" I tend to stick more to that standard of care. Y'all MDC moms need to move here and we can negotiate!
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#63 of 122 Old 05-08-2009, 11:03 PM
 
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as for the comparison of messed-up OBs and messed up mechanics... true, maybe, but I am NOT a car... my baby is not some hunk of metal. And fwiw I try to do the routine stuff on my car myself. I only take it to a mechanic when it's not working properly - which is when I need an OB, when my body isn't working properly! Otherwise you might end up with one of those mechanics/OBs who MAKE something wrong just to perpetuate their own existence!

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#64 of 122 Old 05-08-2009, 11:21 PM
 
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oh and I definitely don't think most women are just stupid. I think many women learned from social/family influence to be obedient and to trust "authority," but given the facts I would bet many of those induce-me-at-39-weeks mamas and oh-a-c-section-will-be-so-convenient mamas would have made different plans. But we are taught to be obedient... look at schools, for example. Sit and passively receive information from the authority. I'm a teacher and believe me, just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you're an authority! I would bet it goes the same for OBs.
I've been lucky enough to have had some experiences with docs who have made me skeptical... seeing two docs argue about what meds were appropriate for my dad in ICU with COPD, for example, or hearing docs disagreeing in urgent care when I had an adverse reaction to a flu shot (one doc said to the other that vaccines are totally safe, I couldn't possibly be having a reaction!). Fortunately my skepticism led me to some great midwives and with some luck there will be NO OB involved in my next birth!
I think maybe many mamas just haven't had experiences that have led them to question authority. We can't blame them for trusting, especially when almost every "You and Your Baby" magazine, commercial (Gardisil, for example), even diaper promotional material touts the "wonders" of mainstream modern medicine and how much wisdom your doc has! This is a world where formula samples and fancy Enfamil diaper bags are handed out in most hospitals, but how many mamas are given nursing supplies?
Ok, sorry for the rant, off the soapbox, time to get the toddler into bed!

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#65 of 122 Old 05-09-2009, 03:19 AM
 
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I think a lot of it is lack of education/reasearch on the issue, combined with not wanting to take resposnibility. At least thats the message i get from a lot of them, i think there is a feeling that if something goes wrong then you can blame your ob because you were just doing what you were told. Like the good old "if something gies wrong you will never forgive yourself..." about homebirth. Personally i feel i am resposnsible where ever i am, and not making a choice is a choice (baring where women are forced and coerced i feel that the hcs who do that have a lot of blame and responsibility at their feet) Sorry i read over this and i really dont make sence today, naking and lack of sleep do not mix
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#66 of 122 Old 05-09-2009, 07:40 AM
 
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It's really nice seeing this debate take place on this board because I think women are starting to take more control of their pregnancy and birth decisions. I do think we as a culture have slipped into something quite dangerous where birth is concerned, and that is becoming complacent and not questioning or being afraid to question our caregiver's actions.

There are so many good points I agree with on this thread that I don't want to repeat them. The main point, besides this having become an issue of culture, is that somewhere along the lines we've let OBs and hospitals take over the entire birthing process. I'm sure their intentions are good, but as someone pointed out, one, OBs are trained SURGEONS. Someone referenced the Monty Python skit of "you're not qualified" and that is DH's and I favorite clip to send to people. Two, birth is a completely natural process that was once a part of everyday life and now is treated as a disease or a handicap. It seems a high number of hospital births that should be routine (and every birth is unique) easily turn into a crisis or emergency (i.e. as someone mentioned, when you go beyond 40 weeks).

When I was first pregnant, DH and I knew we wanted a fully natural birth. We met with a number of different OBs and midwives associated with OBs, and all of them seemed appalled that I wanted to rule out a scheduled c-section and epidurals and other drugs. No interventions unless my life or that of my baby TRULY depended on it. Even when my co-workers found out I was going for a drug-free birth, women said things to me like, "You HAVE to have an epidural!" as if it were some type of rule and my vagina would close up if I didn't.

All the reasons women have stated on this thread is what originally drove DH and I (and a growing number of other couples) into deciding on a homebirth. My stress levels decreased so much after we met our HB midwife and started prenatal care with her and planning for our HB. Obviously the reasons we stick with HB and will in the future has grown, but originally, it was the level of 'forced' care we saw in OB's offices and we knew that the chances of having a birth we were comfortable with in a hospital was not in our hands.

Whatever birth women choose for themselves, I am happy that more and more women are examining the level of care they are receiving and not just taking being a silent or reluctant participant.

Andi, 32 - SAHM to Aaron Patriot born at home on 8/7/09 and devoted wife to Paul. : EC, Non-Circ ::
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#67 of 122 Old 05-09-2009, 07:39 PM
 
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Not having read the whole thread....

Even if one is well-researched and knows what they want and why, it can be incredibly difficult to stand up to someone with degrees and years and years of education and the medical culture (full of other people with degrees) backing them.

If my husband (nurse) and parents (doctors) hadn't been there to cheer me on with my last two and if the midwives hadn't done their best to be reassuring and confident in me, I probably would have meekly said "Sure, take me to the OR now. I want what's best for my baby, even if that means a c-section at 40 weeks because he's "too big"." : My first baby saved me from induction at 40 weeks by arriving 3 days early. I was ready and willing to go along with the induction plan because I didn't know any better and was willing to accept the doctor's word that it was necessary.

The doctors who backed up our midwives the last two times were just plain awful. Both pulled the dead baby card on me. Both made me feel like a horrible, selfish person for wanting to do things naturally. The midwives backed me up as much as they could, but had to shift my care to the hosp at 42 weeks.

And then there were all the people around me who thought I was completely nuts. "Why don't you go to such-and-such hospital and just have an epidural and get induced. I did that and we played music and lit candles and it was so peaceful!"

It was also hard to say no to nsts and u/s. Again because wouldn't I be a horrible mother if something went wrong and I'd refused so nobody knew about it? And once you get into the tests, there's always a bazillion things they can find to make them worried and get them pushing induction.


When you don't have information, or when you have information but *no* support, how can you reject something touted as necessary to save your baby's life?? YK? It's not that easy. I have so many aquaintances who are strong, assertive, intelligent, confident women, but who's legs turned to jello when their doctor said "We're going to do this- and this and this, otherwise your baby will DIE or be DAMAGED".
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#68 of 122 Old 05-10-2009, 05:17 PM
 
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May I jump in? I have not read the entire thread but I want to give an opinion if I may. I am currently over 30 weeks pregnant with triplets. I have given birth completely naturally twice (two toddlers at home 11 months apart!!!) and I have had the same OB. He is a private physician and he is absolutely wonderful. He encourages natural birth, gives instruction (correct instruction!) on breast feeding, no formula handouts, and he let me deliver standing both times without IVs. I kid him saying he is a midwife in disguise! But when I found out I was having triplets I wanted to try a vaginal birth. I approached him with research and a tearfully asked him "Can't I try? Don't these babies deserve a chance of a vaginal birth?" He replied "I will do my best." We have kept a close eye on the position of the babies and he is well versed in breech and multiple deliveries and so far he has said ok to a vaginal birth for me but I must deliver in the OR in case anything starts to go wrong. I have so much faith in him and trust him and he not just a doctor, but someone I look to for intelligent up to date information on childbirth. I know not all Obs are like this, but he is one who IS very much natural minded and actually ASKS for a birth plan. I guess what I am trying to say not all Obs are evil surgeons waiting to make their next cut on a helpless woman. Just my thoughts on the subject...
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#69 of 122 Old 05-10-2009, 06:34 PM
 
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May I jump in? I have not read the entire thread but I want to give an opinion if I may. I am currently over 30 weeks pregnant with triplets. I have given birth completely naturally twice (two toddlers at home 11 months apart!!!) and I have had the same OB. He is a private physician and he is absolutely wonderful. He encourages natural birth, gives instruction (correct instruction!) on breast feeding, no formula handouts, and he let me deliver standing both times without IVs. I kid him saying he is a midwife in disguise! But when I found out I was having triplets I wanted to try a vaginal birth. I approached him with research and a tearfully asked him "Can't I try? Don't these babies deserve a chance of a vaginal birth?" He replied "I will do my best." We have kept a close eye on the position of the babies and he is well versed in breech and multiple deliveries and so far he has said ok to a vaginal birth for me but I must deliver in the OR in case anything starts to go wrong. I have so much faith in him and trust him and he not just a doctor, but someone I look to for intelligent up to date information on childbirth. I know not all Obs are like this, but he is one who IS very much natural minded and actually ASKS for a birth plan. I guess what I am trying to say not all Obs are evil surgeons waiting to make their next cut on a helpless woman. Just my thoughts on the subject...
I think that's wonderful and how I wish there were more OBs like him. I think he IS a midwife in disguise! I've read a lot of stories on different boards about the diamond-in-the-rough OB like yours but they are so few and far between. I like hearing these stories - it restores hope that maybe we can turn this bus around someday and put the focus back on what's good for the mother and good for the baby, not what's good for the doctor, hospital, insurance company or comfort of anyone BUT the mother and baby. And I'm so happy to hear you are really trying for a vaginal birth with triplets. I would do the same if I were in your shoes. I'll keep you in my thoughts and keep my fingers crossed for you.

Andi, 32 - SAHM to Aaron Patriot born at home on 8/7/09 and devoted wife to Paul. : EC, Non-Circ ::
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#70 of 122 Old 05-10-2009, 10:51 PM
 
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I disagree. I think the % of bad American OBs is much higher than the % of bad American mechanics. I say this because of our culture:
  • birth is seen as a medical event (DOC IN CHARGE - not woman - & her emotional state of mine is irrelevant)
  • OBs don't practice evidence-based care & don't seem to think they need to
  • The obstetric "Omerta" (OBs can do no wrong, view protecting the interests of OBs as far more important than the actual health & safety of women & babies, and won't speak out against one another, even if they recognize malpractice) (See "Born in the USA" by Dr. Marsden Wagner)
I think American obstetrics is in a sorry state. MUCH WORSE than american car mechanics.
Honestly I think it's the whole American healthcare system that is in a sorry state.

I was just using it as an analogy. I still believe to an extent that Dr are plainly "mechanics", they are trained professionals(or someone who can pass tests well). There are good Dr and there are bad Drs just like anything. Personally I see it like that.

For me I have not encountered these types of Drs(maybe because I go to women Drs), I live in an area that is very progressive when it comes to birthing. The hospital is "baby-friendly" and has state recognition for promoting rooming in, waterbirthing, no nursery, breastfeeding, etc....My current Dr is a pediatrician who also delivers babies, she is completely amazing and has been nothing but wonderful. I don't feel powerless or that she is making all the decisions.

Me Wife to T (14 years)Mama to Princess(4) and Monster Boy(my 1 year old ):
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#71 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 10:29 AM
 
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Honestly I think it's the whole American healthcare system that is in a sorry state.

I was just using it as an analogy. I still believe to an extent that Dr are plainly "mechanics", they are trained professionals(or someone who can pass tests well). There are good Dr and there are bad Drs just like anything. Personally I see it like that.

For me I have not encountered these types of Drs(maybe because I go to women Drs), I live in an area that is very progressive when it comes to birthing. The hospital is "baby-friendly" and has state recognition for promoting rooming in, waterbirthing, no nursery, breastfeeding, etc....My current Dr is a pediatrician who also delivers babies, she is completely amazing and has been nothing but wonderful. I don't feel powerless or that she is making all the decisions.
This is me too. My Ob is a man (I feel uncomfortable with women down there for some odd reason) and he is always asking questions to me and getting MY consent before doing anything medical. Not that I am defending ALL Obs here, but there are good ones out there, just like there are BAD midwives (trust me I have encountered a few!) which is why I went to an Ob.
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#72 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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This is me too. My Ob is a man (I feel uncomfortable with women down there for some odd reason) and he is always asking questions to me and getting MY consent before doing anything medical. Not that I am defending ALL Obs here, but there are good ones out there, just like there are BAD midwives (trust me I have encountered a few!) which is why I went to an Ob.
See you have a good experience with a male Ob, I have female Drs who have both had children and have experiences with birthing. I also had a bad experience with our local midwife who completely insulted me after finding out about my c/s, she told plainly that the ONLY reason I had a c/s was just because I was scared:, not knowing any of the serious complications that arose during DD's birth. I've tried to forgive her for her rude demeanor, but alas, I would never go to her because of making a statement that she knew nothing about.

My current Dr was the one who attended DD's birth because my Dr was out of town on family business. I met her in labor and fell in love with her, plus she knows what happened with DD's and my complications. She is wonderful and has been willing to see me at a moments notice. A few weeks ago I had a bleeding episode and she instantly had me in a u/s to see what was going on, plus with her being a ped it is just awesome. I think much of it has to do with living in a small area, you do bad here no one will come to you ever again. I think many women who are in larger areas run into terrible OB's because they are just another number.

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#73 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 12:44 PM
 
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It frustrates me to no end. I have been pregnant and birthing for 15 years. It is getting worse IMO.

Annabelle Catholic wife to Jeff '92 and mom to Makaley 19 Arden 19 Anniston 17 Taegan 14 Balen 12 Kellen 10 Ellery 8 Innish 6 Eiley 4 Finnian 3 Esca 2 our 8th uc.jpghomeschool.gifwaterbirth.jpgIHhbac.gifbftoddler.gifvbac.gifand expecting sweet pea January 2014.

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#74 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 01:47 PM
 
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I think much of it has to do with living in a small area, you do bad here no one will come to you ever again. I think many women who are in larger areas run into terrible OB's because they are just another number.
Hm, interesting theory.

The strange thing about OBs though is that they can be AWFUL... and women being treated by them don't know it!! Here's my essay on that concept:

Does the average American woman know how downright idiotic it is to be told she's not allowed to drink or eat & must have IV fluids in every case? Dose the average American woman know how idiotic it is to be tied to cEFM for a low-risk birth? How idiotic it is to ... therefore... then have her movement restricted & not be able to get in a bath to cope with normal labor pains?

Does she know the risks of the epidural? Or does she think "Natural birth makes as much sense as natural dentistry, & no one gives you a medal for not taking the drugs." Does she know the risks of induction? pitocin? Does she know that even if her baby really is 9# (and estimates can be off by 2# or more), induction doesn't improve the outcomes anyway. Does she know lithotomy is the WORST postion to birth in - inhibiting progress in getting baby out on top of increasing the risk of tearing? Or has it never occured to her that you can birth in other positions?

Does she know how bad episiotomy (without real cause) is? If she read "The Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy" she might thing it's a normal procedure and necessary in order to "save" her from worse tearing. (The book says, "If you're a first time mom, you'll probably be given an episiotomy." (as if you have no choice in the matter!) Even in the 2nd edition published in like 2007.

Finally.... does she know that odds are good that her C-section was unnecessary....

Or does she, instead, believe that this is just the way birth is. Centuries ago, women used to die in childbirth & now that doesn't happen (wrong!) We need the medical intervention to save Mamas & babies. Out-of-hospital birth is DANGEROUS, reckless, & idiotic. My CS saved my baby.... etc. Yes, birth was unpleasant, but so is having your tonsils removed. But it's an unpleasant means to a good end... It's a medical procedure that medical professionals are in-charge of & something that happens to mama not somethign she does, etc.

Because of the way our culture views birth, it's just all too easy for OBs to be terrible - dictatorial, non-evidence based, non-mother friendly, causing iatrogenic problems that they then "rescue" with CS or vacuum, etc., & the woman just has no idea about the real truth. She may think the OB was great because s/he "saved" the baby with a CS.
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#75 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 02:55 PM
 
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I think much of it has to do with living in a small area, you do bad here no one will come to you ever again. I think many women who are in larger areas run into terrible OB's because they are just another number.
I live in a VERY VERY rural area, population 15 (yes 15, soon to be 18 when the triplets are born though : ) and my Ob is in a larger city 40 minutes away. I agree, if someone is treated wrong the WHOLE area knows about it, it was like that with a dentist who used to practice nearby. He was horrible and so horrible he left town because of lack of business
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#76 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 05:43 PM
 
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I feel that this is a societal problem, not limited to the birthing of children. We, as a society, do not take responsibility for our actions or that which goes on in our lives. The modern medical system & the system w/in which many mothers have their children is a perfect set-up for this mentality. You do not need to take responsibility, and are in fact, a much better patient & fit into the system much more easily if you allow others to take the responsibility.

Now, we all know that this means there are much worse outcomes for both mothers & babies, short & long term. Otherwise, we wouldn't be spending the most money of maternity care in the entire world & yet be way down the list (can't remember the numbers, but I'm thinking it's 28th or something for maternal or infant morbidity), compared to the rest of world in infant & maternal morbidity & mortality. It just isn't logical to think that w/ all the money spent on technological birth that it is doing anyone any good. If it were, the numbers would speak to that.

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#77 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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I want to thank everybody who has posted to challenge the "blame-the-victim" (mother) approach to this topic. It wasn't long ago that most of us were in their shoes, trusting our doctors to do what is best for us.

Call me a Pollyanna, but I don't spend my life questioning everybody to find nefarious motives. I trust most mechanics, police officers, plumbers, and hair stylists to use their training and expertise wisely in order to serve me in the best possible manner. Sure, there are bad apples, and there's a time to raise an eyebrow, but it would never occur to me to stay on my defenses when interacting with every last one of them.

I used to view physicians, especially OBs, in the same manner. Yet extensive research, reading, and MDC discussions have exposed to me the seamy side of the profession. I do feel "on guard" in the presence of any OB. I wish that I could take their words at face value. But now I question all of it. I delay medical decision-making until I do my own research on the matter and glean different opinions. This is definitely a good habit to have, but it's no fun lacking a trusting relationship with my care providers.

In a nutshell, I'm saying that I empathize with the women who "let their OBs play god." It wasn't long ago that I was one of them.

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There is a lot of resistance to giving up control in the medical field. On the flip side, in my experience as a physician, there is a fair amount of resistance among some of my clients to assuming control of their own medical care.
I found a wealth of interesting information in your post, especially about the passivity of some of your clients. But it's your use of the word "clients" that deserves praise. Especially when I'm pregnant, it is inappropriate to call me a "patient." The word implies not only a paternalistic top-down relationship, but also that I'm sick...that my pregnancy is a disease. Calling me a "client" not only puts me and my doctor in a more collaborative relationship, but it reminds me that as a health care consumer, I'm ultimately obligated to take responsibility for my own health. I wish that more doctors--particularly OBs--saw it this way. Thank you.

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#78 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 06:16 PM
 
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Well said Turquesa-for me I was very educated with my birth experience of my DD, and yes it did end up in a true emergency c/s. The hospital where we live has a low c/s rate(I think 20%) and most babies are no/low intervention births. With me I labored for 30 hours and after the 3 pushing with pretty much zero descent it was obvious that something was not quite right, I was able to move positions and DD was just stuck in the left side of my pelvis and wouldn't budge. Then my uterus pretty much gave out and stopped effectively contracting, which made it very obvious(from my standpoint) that something was wrong. I just felt things change.

Now there is another hospital 45 minutes away from me where the c/s rate is 50%. The head OB there is an a$$, and he does treat most women like they are just stupid and freaked out. I know because I have heard the stories from my SILs, friends and people who work there. Personally I would never step in his office. He is the "high-risk" OB in this county, and by golly if I was deemed high risk, you wouldn't see me there. My friend on the other hand, well she's going back to that same hospital even after her son almost died(he was airlifted out of there) because she is so trusting of the medical system. I always am trying to get her to take charge of her birth choices, but she just doesn't. I guess I just have to respect her decisions even if they are based purely on convenience sake, which seems completely silly to me, but hey it's not my choice to make.

Right now I am faced with another c/s due to my weird T-incision, it was not done out of malice, it was done out of the fact that DD had descended far enough to be so wedged that this incision had to be made. The attending surgeon told me that most women can(and should) have vbac's after a c/s, but I am just a terrible candidate for one. Plus even if I wanted to try, my DH would have no part in it, there would be zero support because he was taken aside and told the gravity of the situation. He would have never agreed for us to have another child, and I have to also respect that fact-he is the father of this baby. I know the risks of the c/s, what I do not know are the risks associated with a T cut, there is very little info on that and that unknown is a bit scary to me. I am getting my choice though with my provider, and she will be attending the birth of our child with her colleague to preform the surgery. I feel great about all of this.

I do believe many women do need to become more informed about the entire birth experience, my only regret was not getting a waterbirth. What sucks is the normally used resources, like What to Expect(barf) and many other are just piles of garbage that many women are spoon fed. I realized when I was pg with DD that much of what I believe and felt was right are just not the norm.

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#79 of 122 Old 05-11-2009, 06:53 PM
 
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What sucks is the normally used resources, like What to Expect(barf) and many other are just piles of garbage that many women are spoon fed. I realized when I was pg with DD that much of what I believe and felt was right are just not the norm.
:

I burned my set of What to Expect books - I couldn't even donate them in good conscious because they were so misleading.

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#80 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 12:26 AM
 
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I think its a mixture of not being informed and the pressure from everything and everyone. Some people just don't care though. They just want pregnancy over with, and don't care how labor goes, just as long as there is a baby at the end. I've met many women like that. I had an OB, he wasn't God, but he was a damn good man and Doctor. Luckily he believes in education and we had good appointments where he made sure I asked questions and we talked about everything.
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#81 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 12:49 AM
 
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I've noticed from a lot of the people in my hometown (smalltown WV) that people don't even consider doing things other than "the way we do things." You (usually) graduate high school, marry your high school sweetheart, get pregnant, go to the hospital, get your epidural, do whatever the doctor tells you (because doctors have been to college and know what they're talking about), have the baby, give it a bottle, send it off to be circumcised, then raise it on McDonald's, soda, and Hamburger Helper.

*Disclaimer* This is not an insult to people from WV, people who trust their doctors, bottle-feeders, etc. This has been my personal experience with everyone I know from high school. It has been the same pattern every. single. time. People do what they know. Babies get bottles, sleep in cribs, and cry themselves to sleep. Spanking is the only way to discipline a kid. Soda is what you drink. McDonald's is a special night out. Foreskins don't exist. Etc. It just never crosses their mind that their even IS another way, much less that it might be better. It may have something to do with the isolation of the state, but I've seen it other places than my hometown. When questioned as to their reasons why they do something (like bottle-feeding) they get this confused look on their faces and say "That's what everybody I know does" or "That's how I was raised" or "What else would I do?" They don't even realize that other ways are possible.

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#82 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 10:47 AM
 
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I think too it's hard to change your ideas when to do so means acknowledging that your previous beliefs and/or the way your parents believe or raised you is wrong.

It took me a long time to get my head around not spanking because I was raised in a home that not only spanked but believed that to not spank was to go against the way God wanted children raised. I am still a Christian and, thankfully, have found a different way. But in doing that, I've had to admit that the way my parents did things is not right.

I think birth is similar. It's a total counter cultur paradigm shift for women to go from having trusted the medical professsion their whole life to discovering that doctors don't always (or even mostly) know best in the case of birth. Frankly, 9 months is not enough time to accomplish this kind of shift in thinking and then most women don't even get an inkling that there might be a problem until they are actually in labor. Then it's just simply easier to bury their head in the sand because there isn't a thing they can do about it then and the alternative is to be horrified, traumatized, and openly miserable. Unfortunatley, I think many of those women are still all of those things but can't opening acknowledge why and are diagnosed ppd by the same doctors that caused the problems.

A, WOHM hoping to be a SAHM married to E (7/7/01), mama to R :: (2/8/08) : : hopeful for ::
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#83 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 11:31 AM
 
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I searched really hard to find a high risk OB that I trust completely. That doesn't mean that I don't do research on my own, but I feel since he has spent years and years dealing with high risk pregnancies, he knows a little more about it then I do. During my last pregnancy when I had people IRL question why I was having weekly NST, I always said that it was because my dr recommended it. So it may appear that I'm not informed and I mindlessly do what my dr said, but for me, a key part of my reasearch was finding a good OB that I trusted. I don't think he is a god and I'm sure he makes mistakes, but I believe that when he made recommendations, he was looking out for my and my baby's best interest. If I didn't trust him to give good advice, I would go find a new OB.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
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#84 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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It has been the same pattern every. single. time. People do what they know. Babies get bottles, sleep in cribs, and cry themselves to sleep. Spanking is the only way to discipline a kid. Soda is what you drink. McDonald's is a special night out. Foreskins don't exist. Etc. It just never crosses their mind that their even IS another way, much less that it might be better. It may have something to do with the isolation of the state, but I've seen it other places than my hometown. When questioned as to their reasons why they do something (like bottle-feeding) they get this confused look on their faces and say "That's what everybody I know does" or "That's how I was raised" or "What else would I do?" They don't even realize that other ways are possible.
THIS IS WHAT I AM DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am 32 weeks pregnant with triplets and my Ob is on board for a vaginal delivery (so far anyway!!!!) and everyone in my town is balking at me and calling me a hazard to their health, saying I am just putting myself first instead of their needs because I am not automatically going for a section. I have tried for years to get a LLL going here and no one wants to, I nurse in public, cloth diaper and tandemed nursed my toddlers (11 months apart) and I get called literally in public "hippie mom" "weirdo" "sicko" the names go on and on and it is worse now because I am having three more. I had a lady the other day say "Why are you even walking around if you are that close to delivery?" HUH? How the hell does she know how close I am to delivering those babies? : (Sorry for the rant, must be the pregnancy hormones!) Yes though, my Ob and I have had this conversation before and he totally gets it, his wife is JUST like me so we can understand each other completely. Just sucks living in a backassward part of the world :
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#85 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 12:22 PM
 
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I searched really hard to find a high risk OB that I trust completely. That doesn't mean that I don't do research on my own, but I feel since he has spent years and years dealing with high risk pregnancies, he knows a little more about it then I do. During my last pregnancy when I had people IRL question why I was having weekly NST, I always said that it was because my dr recommended it. So it may appear that I'm not informed and I mindlessly do what my dr said, but for me, a key part of my reasearch was finding a good OB that I trusted. I don't think he is a god and I'm sure he makes mistakes, but I believe that when he made recommendations, he was looking out for my and my baby's best interest. If I didn't trust him to give good advice, I would go find a new OB.
Yes to this. Exactly how I feel about my Ob!
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#86 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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When it comes down to it I just don't understand why women don't ask questions more. Really. I mean, yes, I know that they are the experts and what not, but why wouldn't you question anything? Why would you let them just do "whatever" because they recommend it or think it's best?
Just because they have a degree and some initials after their name does not mean that they necessarily know what is best for YOU, sure, they probably have a bunch of suggestions and one or more of those might be right for you personally, but why not ask?

Elijah Mercury (7/2009), TTC #2 with my new soon to be DH! Tattooed, 29 year old cancer survivor! treehugger.gif

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#87 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 12:46 PM
 
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I feel kinda bad reading a lot of these posts. As someone who went to an ob with my first pregnancy, was induced, had the epi and of course the section. At the time I just DIDN'T KNOW I HAD OPTIONS. Apparently it sounds stupid to a lot of people here, but that is the culture we live in. I think most first time moms don't even realize that there is something better, and why would they? Everyone they know goes to an ob and a hospital to birth.
I know better now, but if I had had a decent vaginal birth at the hospital, I may have never questioned it.

Also, obs don't present things as options. Its just "we're going to do this because blah blah blah." And as a not very assertive person, (back then), it is next to impossible to say no. Not to mention they use the "your baby could die if you don't do this" crap. Its very hard to say no to that when you are in that vulnerable position and have never been taught to know better.

So anyway, my point is just don't be too hard on women. It is more the culture and society that we live in than individual choices. Now i just feel really bad for those women going in to get induced for no reason.
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#88 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 12:51 PM
 
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I wonder if a lot of it stems from the "hospital is safer" mindset.How many T.V. commercials have we all seen that say "doctors recommend" There really is some subtle programming at work from the time we're small.Women are supposed to be nice, get along.I think that it's even a check box on elementary report cards.

I never liked birthing in hospitals. it wasn't terrible, it just seemed like the worst time to be around strangers.I felt like I was supposed to be nice, compliant, friendly......during labor? Be serious.HB beats out hospital birth IMHO every time.

I tell my daughter to give birth the way she wants to, raise hell,question, question and question some more.They both couch all their responses in the language of fear; "what if something is wrong?" I keep telling them why should anything be wrong? That's what gets me, the fear.It's the most wonderful time in your life, the greatest journey, why approach it in fear waiting for big daddy doctor to make it all right? It blows my mind to hear it.
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#89 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 01:04 PM
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I feel kinda bad reading a lot of these posts. As someone who went to an ob with my first pregnancy, was induced, had the epi and of course the section. At the time I just DIDN'T KNOW I HAD OPTIONS. Apparently it sounds stupid to a lot of people here, but that is the culture we live in. I think most first time moms don't even realize that there is something better, and why would they? Everyone they know goes to an ob and a hospital to birth.
I know better now, but if I had had a decent vaginal birth at the hospital, I may have never questioned it.

Also, obs don't present things as options. Its just "we're going to do this because blah blah blah." And as a not very assertive person, (back then), it is next to impossible to say no. Not to mention they use the "your baby could die if you don't do this" crap. Its very hard to say no to that when you are in that vulnerable position and have never been taught to know better.

So anyway, my point is just don't be too hard on women. It is more the culture and society that we live in than individual choices. Now i just feel really bad for those women going in to get induced for no reason.
As a first time mom myself who originally started out using an OB a friend suggested I don't really know how I so completely changed my perspective within the scope of a few weeks. I do know that nobody told me that things could be done a different way, so I completely understand the "I had no idea" concept...

That doesn't excuse women from doing their own digging though. At some point, I think during an appointment with my OB I was trying to question her about the point of a blood test she wanted me to do and she was getting annoyed with me for even asking questions. This is when something in my brain clicked and I realized it felt wrong. Why was she annoyed? Why shouldn't I ask questions.

I went to the book store and did the best thing I could have ever done. I looked at all the birthing books, not just what to expect etc. I picked up Ina's guide to childbirth and it completely changed me and the way I view my body, pregnancy and birth. Even though I didn't know a thing in the beginning I realized it was important to be able to understand what medical professionals around me were talking about...Don't we do research when we buy a new car? Or any major purchase? Why should it be any different with birth, just because a doctor tells us? I think not...

I don't entirely blame the woman but I guess I will always wonder why a woman wouldn't want to know as much as she can about how her body is going to perform this amazing feat!
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#90 of 122 Old 05-12-2009, 01:09 PM
 
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...the alternative is to be horrified, traumatized, and openly miserable. Unfortunatley, I think many of those women are still all of those things but can't opening acknowledge why and are diagnosed ppd by the same doctors that caused the problems.
:
There was interesting presentation about maternal mental health at the ICAN conference. It was over an hour long, but the most interesting thing I took away from it is that people who are researching post-partum maternal mental health (and actually talking to moms, not just working from a checklist) are reaching the conclusion that PPD is massively over-diagnosed...and PTSD is massively under-diagnosed. PPD is generally considered to be the most significant mental health challenge faced by new moms, but evidence is starting to suggest that many, many cases of "PPD" are actually PTSD...and they're not being treated properly. And, really - how hard is it going to be to get obstetrical professionals to even listen to this, when the evidence is also starting to mount that the way women are treated in labour (or even before labour, if they're pushed into inductions or surgery they don't want) is the single biggest contributing factor?

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I wonder if a lot of it stems from the "hospital is safer" mindset.How many T.V. commercials have we all seen that say "doctors recommend" There really is some subtle programming at work from the time we're small.
Yes. I've noticed this since ds1 started school (even before). It's absolutely necessary to take your baby in for all their well-baby checkups. People act like I'm endangering my baby's health by refusing to have a nurse come to my house to check on him (weighing, basically - which is going to happen at the doctor's office in a couple days, anyway). DS1's school once sent a notice home, talking about how the school nurse had taught them how to wash their hands. Every freaking medication in the store has the disclaimer about "consult your physician" (liability reasons, obviously). We're steadily hammered with the idea that, when it comes to our health, we should do anything without checking with a doctor first. I have no doubt that this carries over into prenatal care, especially with the "pregnancy as pathology" mindset that exists all over our culture.


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I had a lady the other day say "Why are you even walking around if you are that close to delivery?" HUH? How the hell does she know how close I am to delivering those babies?
...kind of makes me laugh, but not quite. I flew down to Atlanta a few weeks ago, at 7 months pregnant. I must have had 10 people ask me if I was "allowed" to fly. They were all strangers, and nice enough about it, but almost all of them were very reassured when they realized I was only 7 months. If you don't know how far along I am, why the heck are you expressing all this shock that I'm on a plane??


Quote:
I never liked birthing in hospitals. it wasn't terrible, it just seemed like the worst time to be around strangers.I felt like I was supposed to be nice, compliant, friendly......during labor? Be serious.HB beats out hospital birth IMHO every time.
I've never given birth at home, and I never will now. But, I'll remember my hours of labouring at home, with both ds1 and Aaron, in a very positive way for the rest of my life. It's definitely a much better experience. I'd honestly trade 15 minutes of labour in the hospital for 24 hours of labour at home.

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