Is everything that goes wrong the fault of doctors? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 01-23-2004, 12:09 AM
 
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Great post Hilary! And I don't think that's just a New Zealand perspective. Your experiences may be, but your citations of research and background are very appropriate.
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Old 01-23-2004, 12:14 AM
 
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Originally posted by cmd
I just wanted to say - what midwife would WANT to go to medical school?


Yeah, why go to medical school? I make SO MUCH MONEY as a homebirth midwife!

And, my $2000/year license is great, too!

Oh, and let's not forget the fact that I'm as popular with mainstream America as Ralph Nader!

I appreciate the fact that any adverse outcome at home is well publicized and family and midwife are shamed, while mothers and babies die in the hospital all the time and nothing is said.

And no off-call time? My family loves that!

The 36 hour births that I'm there the whole time, rather than consulting by phone and waltzing in at the last minute? YEAH!

I just wanted to catch babies right away, that's why I never went to medical school. Nope, I didn't care about anything in regards to safety, hell, I'm one crazy wild lady that lives on the edge! I just wanted the fastest, easiest way to do it! That's me, selfish midwife! Oh, and many of the midwives out there are the same way! We're all reckless and dangerous!


/sarcasm



So, that may not sound like I love my work, but I do. Honestly. I just envy one of my best girlfriends that is an MD and her office hours, her on call and off call time, a regular paycheck, paid vacation time, etc.

But, that's about as far as my envy goes.
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Old 01-23-2004, 12:57 AM
 
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No, doctors aren't *always* to blame. I believe it's the entire medical model of care (and the accompanying technocratic view of birth) that is the main issue. Doctors are merely the most visible spoke of that horrendously broken wheel. If I remember correctly, the #s for women who need "obstetric" care during their pregancies is about 10%....so, for the other 90%, they're seeing a surgeon, hoping not to have surgery.

Amy
(whose mom--a registered nurse, just called to tell me my cousin had her baby today, "Emergency C/S!!!", in Manhattan, b/c "the baby was 9 lbs!!! She would have never made it. Thank goodness for modern medicine!!"

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Old 01-23-2004, 01:11 AM
 
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Especially since she knows I had my second, 9 lbs (which IMO, is not very big!), at home......

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Old 01-23-2004, 01:21 AM
 
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I am an RN and worked labour and Delivery at a hospital that did 300+ births a month. There are always doctors who love and respect woman and know that birth is a natural process and that a woman knows instinctively what she needs to do to birth successfully...... and then there are always the jerks (male and female) doctors who don't feel that they really did their jobs unless THEY made that birth possible by intervening. I had a female MD tell me birth would be "perfect if the mother wasn't in the room". I had a male doctor tell me "I don't feel like I'm needed.... so to keep from being bored (and in my opinion to stroke his ego) he always did an episiotomy." The surgical procedure caused him to feel like he was part of the work that had been done and therefore could take some credit in the birth. I have also had another male MD say "look how wonderful women's bodies are..... they bring us into existance and you are all an expresion of the divine." He was in awe of our ability to create or be used by divinity to create. He loved women and believed he was only there to support, protect and preserve the mother's and baby's life. His gift to his patient's was this: he empowered them to do all the work and get all the credit for the birth and it's product! He only lent his medical expertise when it was needed. Only when the process of birthing did not go as mother nature intends it. He felt being allowed to attend birth was a priveledge not that his patients were priveledged to have him attend. It is no surprise that he had the lowest intervention rate, the lowest post-partum infection rate, lowest episiotomy rate, lowest c-section rate, lowest newborn neonatal admission rate and lowest postpartum depression rates.
He should've been a LM!!!!
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Old 01-23-2004, 01:50 AM
 
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OBs are basically practicing midwifery without a license. They should be required to attend a certain number of home births with midwives before being allowed to deliver babies themselves.

If women are to be informed, someone needs to educate them. I think it should start whenever sex education starts. Teach kids and teens about normal birth, cesarean prevention, alternatives, etc.
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Old 01-23-2004, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally posted by cmd
Unless there are complications, birth is a normal, natural process and NOT a medical event. But you wouldn't know it if you gave birth in a hospital.
Are you saying that by looking around you can't tell that birth is a natural thing?

Because otherwise may I for giving birth in a hospital. Just because I did doesn't mean I see birth as an unnatural event. It sickens me that there are so many issues to deal with in order to have a baby! I would like nothing better than to have everyone leave me alone and jsut be able to give birth. But because of decisions I made without knowing the facts or being informed it isn't going to happen.

In today's world EVERYTHING is medical. Thats just how it is. Now some ppl choose to go the other way (which is great) but the majority of ppl don't. So, of course we can blame the drs. Where else does the MAJORITY of ppl go? To the ob. So, it only makes sense that they are involved in the majority of interventions and such. (does that make sense?)

Single Mom to 2 amazing little men. T(7) and B(5)
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:32 PM
 
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I totally agree. Many interventions wouldn't be able to take place without the consent of the patient. But it doesn't matter how strong and informed the patient is, there comes a point where the birthing woman (because her body is otherwise occupied) is vulnerable, and the medical staff can easily gain the upper hand. To keep that from happening takes a lot of strength that should be devoted to the labor, not to demanding your rights. That's stressful, and stress hinders the process, and it hurts the baby.

Oh well then the solution is easy, right? Just hire the "right" doctor at the "right" hospital in the first place. But there are no guarantees. If you have to give birth in a hospital (or even at home with a midwife) all you can do is make the best educated guess at which are the best people to hire. Past that, it's luck.

And what about women who just aren't so smart? Or so strong? Do they deserve it when they get unnecessary interventions at the hospital? Or should we instead expect medical professionals, who make the claim of being "healers", to get their heads out of their asses and start practicing scientifically and compassionately? And when they don't, to hold them accountable?
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally posted by blueviolet
But it doesn't matter how strong and informed the patient is, there comes a point where the birthing woman (because her body is otherwise occupied) is vulnerable, and the medical staff can easily gain the upper hand.
Ain't that the truth!

Single Mom to 2 amazing little men. T(7) and B(5)
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Old 01-23-2004, 06:35 PM
 
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And what about women who just aren't so smart? Or so strong? Do they deserve it when they get unnecessary interventions at the hospital? Or should we instead expect medical professionals, who make the claim of being "healers", to get their heads out of their asses and start practicing scientifically and compassionately? And when they don't, to hold them accountable?
I don't think "she deserved it" just for going to a hospital. I think if a woman with a normal pregnancy wants to deliver in a hospital, she should see a CNM. An ethical OB would say to this woman, "You are too healthy to be seeing me" and would refer her to someone who oversees normal birth.

Also, about lawsuits - could it be these women would not be suing their doctors unless the doctor had done something wrong in the first place? Why is it always the mother who is to blame? I practice a very simple program - I don't want to be taken to court, so I don't do things to hurt other people. Maybe if doctors followed that philosophy, they would not be sued. If you don't want to be sued for malpractice, stop malpracticing! It's so hard to sue a doctor anyway, so if they lost in court they probably were guilty.

If someone does something wrong to me - runs into my car, breaks my window, etc. - of course I will be taking them to court. I guess I'm just not very forgiving and compassionate. I'm sure these same doctors who complain about being sued would sue someone who harmed them as well.

Hilary - I don't know if they use pelvimetry in the U.S. anymore. It's unreliable even if the woman is squatting, since it doesn't measure how much the pelvic ligaments will stretch or how much the baby's head will mold. Do they still use this in NZ?
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Old 01-23-2004, 10:15 PM
 
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Thank you Hilary, for your previous posts.

In my area, we have seen a huge increase in the amount of doulas available. Dh and I had one with us at dd's birth. She was never compelled to "advocate" for us, but she could have, had something unexpected come up.

I like to think the rise in doulas is indicative of our community's progressiveness. At any rate, it's a good start to getting the information out there.

I do believe I am responsible for my decisions, this goes beyond birth.

Quote:
Oh well then the solution is easy, right? Just hire the "right" doctor at the "right" hospital in the first place. But there are no guarantees. If you have to give birth in a hospital (or even at home with a midwife) all you can do is make the best educated guess at which are the best people to hire. Past that, it's luck.
I love my doctor, truly he is like a member of the family. If I didn't have a doctor I trusted, I would see someone else. Same for a midwife. Same for a dentist.

Quote:
And what about women who just aren't so smart? Or so strong? Do they deserve it when they get unnecessary interventions at the hospital? Or should we instead expect medical professionals, who make the claim of being "healers", to get their heads out of their asses and start practicing scientifically and compassionately? And when they don't, to hold them accountable?
They deserve to be treated with respect! I think both things need to happen.

Jen
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