Do you trust birth?--Is that really the question we should be asking? - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
shanniesue2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: walking my path
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had a thought while reading and posting on another message board. There was a post that brought up the topic of unassisted birth as it relates to trusting birth. I've seen this debate many times on mothering: "I am having an UC because I REALLY trust birth" and that "if a birth attendant won't support UC, then she doesn't really trust birth" I've have never typically engaged in this discussion because I think it's mostly people saying the same arguments over and over and I don't feel I have anything different to add. So I've always just listened and felt my own internal response (which has typically been something along the lines of "well maybe I don't really trust birth then.") Until tonight. A question occurred to me while I was reading the aforementioned post:

"trust birth to do what???" "trust birth to work???" "to work how???" because it's fairly common knowledge that birth will "work" a little differently for every woman. One woman might have fairly painless labor. One woman might have really short, but very intensely painful labor. One woman might have a marathon labor. One woman might have back labor with an OP baby. One woman might need a ceserean because her baby is in a transverse lie. So what exactly are we supposed to trust birth to do? Because it's going to do something a little differently for each woman.

So then I realized that the more pressing question is "do I trust myself?" "Do I trust myself to give birth in the best possible way for me and for my baby?" "Do I trust myself to be open to all the possibilities that birth has to offer me?" Because ultimately, I cannot control birth. Birth will be what it is intended to be for each woman. I can only influence, but not control how birth is going to happen for me. But, can I trust myself to give birth with awareness? No matter how birth might work for me? Giving birth in awareness--that is something I can have control over, no matter what the birth looks like (attended or not, medicated or natural, vaginal or ceserean). I can open myself to what the event has to offer, but I cannot control the event itself.

So instead of fighting over how much we do or don't trust birth, maybe it's more important to ask ourselves "how am I trusting myself to be open to what this moment has to offer?"

mommy to Christopher 2/29/08
shanniesue2 is offline  
#2 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 12:41 AM
 
by-the-lake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northern Wisconsin
Posts: 1,135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I could not read this post without comment. Its well thought out and articulated beautifully. Great things to think about.

Wife to DHluxlove.gif DS 98thumb.gif DD 03flower.gif DS 09 babyf.gifwinner.jpgcd.gifnovaxnocirc.gif

She is here!!! Oct 5th!!!joy.gif

 

by-the-lake is offline  
#3 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:06 AM
 
Kidzaplenty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Writing my Happily Ever After
Posts: 16,983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I do "trust birth", in the sense that birth will happen, with or without my, or anyone else's, "assistance". And I trust my body to know that I can handle whatever I need to, or to know when I need help because something is wrong.

I guess I have never really heard the "trusting birth" thing before. I have always heard it as "trusting your body".

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
Kidzaplenty is offline  
#4 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 11:16 AM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I trust birth to be what it is, which is intense, usually safe, but sometimes not perfect and overall requiring IMO a supportive and knowledgeable attendant. I think we have been fed a bunch of lies about birth and women live in unnecessary fear in this culture, but I also think birth is a force to be reckoned with, and that it is not all roses and sunshine.
thismama is offline  
#5 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 11:26 AM
 
Girlprof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,029
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The best thing I ever read about this question was on these boards a little while ago. Someone wrote that she trusts birth like she trusts nature. In other words, mostly everything is fine. Every now and then, there's a huge storm, and things are really not fine. The question to me is, how do you respond to that? "Birth" is not a person, who might be either reliable or unreliable, trustworthy or not trustworthy.

Rather than thinking about this question as "trusting birth" or not, I think about what kinds of odds you want to play. Because it's always odds, never a sure thing. The chances of unnecessary intervention if you walk into your standard US maternity care model are quite high. To continue the storm analogy, it's like women are being asked to wear their most protective rain gear and get ready for a hurricane every single day, even when the weather report is for 75 degrees and sunny.

To me, quality maternity care is about keeping track of the odds that things are going to stay sunny and warm. If everything looks good, which is almost always will, then you don't need any storm gear/intervention. In those cases where everything doesn't look good, you need to go about making appropriate preparations - whatever that might mean for a particular case.

But one thing I think is important to realize is that your level of trust in birth - or the weather - has absolutely no effect on birth or the weather. We can not control nature. We can only control our response to nature.
Girlprof is offline  
#6 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 01:02 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girlprof View Post
The best thing I ever read about this question was on these boards a little while ago. Someone wrote that she trusts birth like she trusts nature. In other words, mostly everything is fine. Every now and then, there's a huge storm, and things are really not fine. The question to me is, how do you respond to that? "Birth" is not a person, who might be either reliable or unreliable, trustworthy or not trustworthy.

Rather than thinking about this question as "trusting birth" or not, I think about what kinds of odds you want to play. Because it's always odds, never a sure thing. The chances of unnecessary intervention if you walk into your standard US maternity care model are quite high. To continue the storm analogy, it's like women are being asked to wear their most protective rain gear and get ready for a hurricane every single day, even when the weather report is for 75 degrees and sunny.

To me, quality maternity care is about keeping track of the odds that things are going to stay sunny and warm. If everything looks good, which is almost always will, then you don't need any storm gear/intervention. In those cases where everything doesn't look good, you need to go about making appropriate preparations - whatever that might mean for a particular case.

But one thing I think is important to realize is that your level of trust in birth - or the weather - has absolutely no effect on birth or the weather. We can not control nature. We can only control our response to nature.
Love it.
thismama is offline  
#7 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
shanniesue2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: walking my path
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My point in asking this question and in posting this thread is that I believe it is the wrong question to ask. Birth, your body, etc are not really entities that you can place trust in. But you can place trust in yourself. Trust in yourself to respond to your birth and to your body in the best way possible. That might mean that you UC, it might mean that you HB, it might mean that in the middle of your UC or HB you make the decision to transfer to a hospital, it might mean that you have a ceserean. No matter the actual events of birth occur, can you trust yourself to be open to them? Can you trust yourself to stay in awareness? Can you trust yourself enough to know that you have done everything in your power to do what's best for you and your baby?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MommytoC View Post
I don't trust birth. I don't trust my body. I don't trust that babies know how to be birthed.

So, I guess in answer to all possible questions, no.

And having had a c-section...well...a c-section isn't birth. I don't consider my son to have been birthed though he was born. He was surgically extracted, not birthed.
Hugs to you mom. I, too had an unwanted ceserean. I completely understand the feeling that it is surgical extraction and not birth. Healing has been and still is a journey for me. So I understand the road you're on.

I don't know the circumstances surrounding your birth, but for me, what
helped was to give myslef credit for everything I had contributed to my baby's birth. I grew my baby, I nourished him with healthful food, I did my best to prepare mentally and physically for his birth. I labored at home for 25 hours, and I was STRONG in labor, I chose to transfer because I new that I needed more help in birthing my baby. I chose to have a spinal and pitocin because I believed it would give my baby the best chance for a vaginal birth considering the circumstances. After 31 hours total of labor, I chose to have a ceserean because I knew I was exhausted and that my baby was exhausted and he needed to be born so that I could hold him and nurture him. After the ceserean, I nursed my baby and fought for what I new in my heart to be best for his health. I did ALL of those things and ALL of things are part of my birth process. The surgery itself was 20 minutes of all of that. I gave 40 weeks, 3 days, and 31 hours of labor to the birth of my baby. When I was able to really credit myself for all of that, I came to a place where I was able to say, you bet I gave birth, I just needed some help in the home stretch, and I'm okay with that.

I don't know if any of that is helpful to you or not, but in my experience I had to rephrase what I was telling myself about the birth of my son. I had to do it for my own sanity. I NEEDED to give myself that credit. And it has really helped me to come to a sense of peace. I have learned a lot of lessons that I otherwise would not have learned, and I am grateful for those lessons. Reframing my birth in this way does not make me glad I had a ceserean. It does not make me trust birth. And it does not make me trust my body. But it does help me to trust myself and to see myself as a capable woman and a capable mother because I know that I can respond to unwanted situations with strength and I can do what's best for myself and my baby even in situations that aren't ideal.

mommy to Christopher 2/29/08
shanniesue2 is offline  
#8 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 01:16 PM
 
neverdoingitagain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: mountain/cow country in Canada
Posts: 2,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girlprof View Post
The best thing I ever read about this question was on these boards a little while ago. Someone wrote that she trusts birth like she trusts nature. In other words, mostly everything is fine. Every now and then, there's a huge storm, and things are really not fine. The question to me is, how do you respond to that? "Birth" is not a person, who might be either reliable or unreliable, trustworthy or not trustworthy.

Rather than thinking about this question as "trusting birth" or not, I think about what kinds of odds you want to play. Because it's always odds, never a sure thing. The chances of unnecessary intervention if you walk into your standard US maternity care model are quite high. To continue the storm analogy, it's like women are being asked to wear their most protective rain gear and get ready for a hurricane every single day, even when the weather report is for 75 degrees and sunny.

To me, quality maternity care is about keeping track of the odds that things are going to stay sunny and warm. If everything looks good, which is almost always will, then you don't need any storm gear/intervention. In those cases where everything doesn't look good, you need to go about making appropriate preparations - whatever that might mean for a particular case.

But one thing I think is important to realize is that your level of trust in birth - or the weather - has absolutely no effect on birth or the weather. We can not control nature. We can only control our response to nature.
Yes, exactly! Great post Girlprof!

waiting on the power of the three wolf moon. 
neverdoingitagain is offline  
#9 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
shanniesue2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: walking my path
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommytoC View Post
I don't want credit. Credit for what? My body failing?



We failed at nursing. (Not going into it again. Feel free to search old posts if you want.) So again, I don't want credit for my body failing. Again.



Well, I didn't give birth and my baby didn't get healthful food. My baby gets a chemical concoction. So, what on earth do I want credit for?

Many people will say that birth works. Well, it also fails. I don't take credit for a job poorly done. I take responsibility.
That's a really hard place to be at. And I'm not judging it or you at all, believe me. I guess what I was trying to say was that I don't give my body credit for anything because it failed. And it didn't fail because of me. My body simply couldn't birth my baby vaginally. But I do give credit to myself (not my body and not birth) because I made the best choices I could given my circumstances. So I don't trust birth and I don't trust my body (I also don't mistrust them, though)... But I do give myself credit for my choices and my effort and I do trust myself because I was able to make those choices and that effort. I'm distinguishing between myself and my body. Does that make sense?

mommy to Christopher 2/29/08
shanniesue2 is offline  
#10 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:01 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommytoC View Post
I don't want credit. Credit for what? My body failing?



We failed at nursing. (Not going into it again. Feel free to search old posts if you want.) So again, I don't want credit for my body failing. Again.



Well, I didn't give birth and my baby didn't get healthful food. My baby gets a chemical concoction. So, what on earth do I want credit for?

Many people will say that birth works. Well, it also fails. I don't take credit for a job poorly done. I take responsibility.
Birth does work, and yes it also fails. It's not your fault though, and this is the problem I have with our collective attitude that birth is rainbows and sunshine and can be trusted to go smoothly. It is not rainbows and sunshine, and it cannot be trusted to go smoothly. It is also not so severely dangerous that we need all this crazy obstetrical assistance every time, but there is a middle ground between the medical model and this idea that birth is perfect and smooth and if it's not, somehow it is our fault and we should carry it on our shoulders as women. That is very misogynist thinking and I don't like the way it has infiltrated the natural birth community, nor the unnecessary guilt inducing effect it has on individual mothers.
thismama is offline  
#11 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:07 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommytoC View Post
shanniesue2, I suppose what it might be is I don't view the body or the mind or the spirit as being separate parts of a self. I view all of them as being the self. When something happens to one of these, it happens to all. My body failed me, and in turn my mind and my spirit too have suffered because of those failures. It's the same as with successes. If I were to ever run a marathon and succeed in completing all 26.2 miles, my mind and my spirit would likely be soaring as I crossed the finish line.

I suppose for me no matter how it's reframed, it's still all me.
If you are your body, your body didn't fail you. Some part of yourself is sitting in judgment of the rest of you. If your child falls down and gets hurt, is that a failure on her part or something traumatic that happened to her and for which she needs support and empathy and a bandaid? No different with birth. It's some serious self hate to see it any differently IMO.
thismama is offline  
#12 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:14 PM
 
Youngfrankenstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girlprof View Post
The best thing I ever read about this question was on these boards a little while ago. Someone wrote that she trusts birth like she trusts nature. In other words, mostly everything is fine. Every now and then, there's a huge storm, and things are really not fine. The question to me is, how do you respond to that? "Birth" is not a person, who might be either reliable or unreliable, trustworthy or not trustworthy.

Rather than thinking about this question as "trusting birth" or not, I think about what kinds of odds you want to play. Because it's always odds, never a sure thing. The chances of unnecessary intervention if you walk into your standard US maternity care model are quite high. To continue the storm analogy, it's like women are being asked to wear their most protective rain gear and get ready for a hurricane every single day, even when the weather report is for 75 degrees and sunny.

To me, quality maternity care is about keeping track of the odds that things are going to stay sunny and warm. If everything looks good, which is almost always will, then you don't need any storm gear/intervention. In those cases where everything doesn't look good, you need to go about making appropriate preparations - whatever that might mean for a particular case.

But one thing I think is important to realize is that your level of trust in birth - or the weather - has absolutely no effect on birth or the weather. We can not control nature. We can only control our response to nature.

I think you've summed it up beautifully.

Mama to 4. winner.jpghomebirth.jpg
Youngfrankenstein is offline  
#13 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:18 PM
 
sunshadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 514
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think I just realized that no I do not trust myself in birth. I didn't do well with the birth of my daughter. I was locked up completely mentally and physically. I am worried the same thing will happen. As much as I want a home birth I am leaving the option open for a hospital birth (with midwife) in case I can't get to the point where I trust myself. I have a lot to work to do and that is why I chose a midwife despite my fears. She has more tools to help me deal with my fears than an OB.

SAHM to DD (May/07) and DS (Jan/10)
sunshadow is offline  
#14 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:19 PM
 
SalmonBayDoula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 642
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is a great thread, I have enjoyed reading it. One of my favorite quotes (and at the moment, I can't recall who said it, to give proper credit to???) is

"Birth is as safe as life gets!"

I trust birth because it is an evolutionarily tested process that has been selected to work over thousands of years.

Sharon

Birth doula, doula trainer, ican leader, lamaze childbirth educator, and most importantly, mom of 2 great girls!
SalmonBayDoula is offline  
#15 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
shanniesue2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: walking my path
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I can definitely sense that you have suffered (and still are) because of how your birth took place. And I really don't want to trivialize that suffering. I know that every time anyone has ever told me, "well at least you have a healthy baby" or some other stupid phrase that they think is helpful, I have felt like they don't really understand or recognize the loss I feel in not having had the birth I wanted to have. I still hate it when people say that it doesn't really matter HOW it happens. And I'm not trying to say that it doesn't matter how birth happens. Birth is the most significant rite of passage that a woman will ever go through, and so it does matter how it happens. And it does matter how women feel about it. So how you feel about it does matter, and I really hope that you sense that I'm not judging you, your birth, or your journey. I'm simply trying to express what has been helpful for me. And if that's not helpful for you, that's fine--I don't take it personally. I just want you to know that I very much understand where you're coming from. I know that sense of failure. And I know how disappointing it is. So I'm offering you hugs and wishes for peace and healing.

mommy to Christopher 2/29/08
shanniesue2 is offline  
#16 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:23 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SalmonBayDoula View Post
This is a great thread, I have enjoyed reading it. One of my favorite quotes (and at the moment, I can't recall who said it, to give proper credit to???) is

"Birth is as safe as life gets!"

I trust birth because it is an evolutionarily tested process that has been selected to work over thousands of years.

Sharon
ITA with you that birth is as safe as life gets, and I love that. And it's true that it has been evolutionarily selected to work enough of the time that we have continuation of the species. But I think where we err is that we think it works all the time (by our IMO fairly spoiled definition of working - live healthy baby, live healthy mother, no intervention), and that it is within our control if only we have enough faith/trust/intuition.

This IMO is a fairly adolescent viewpoint, it is a polarization with the medical model which says it never works without help and is oh so scary/dangerous. Neither thing is true IMO, and I wish we could get beyond both the medical scaremongering and the polarized 'birth is fluffy bunnies or its all our own fault' response.
thismama is offline  
#17 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
shanniesue2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: walking my path
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshadow View Post
I think I just realized that no I do not trust myself in birth. I didn't do well with the birth of my daughter. I was locked up completely mentally and physically. I am worried the same thing will happen. As much as I want a home birth I am leaving the option open for a hospital birth (with midwife) in case I can't get to the point where I trust myself. I have a lot to work to do and that is why I chose a midwife despite my fears. She has more tools to help me deal with my fears than an OB.
You might check out birthing from within. If you don't have a local mentor, you can get the home study, or simply get the book and do the exercises. It's very helpful is building up a coping mindset. And it has really helped me come to a place of peace and understanding about my own birth experience

mommy to Christopher 2/29/08
shanniesue2 is offline  
#18 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:25 PM
 
sunshadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 514
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanniesue2 View Post
You might check out birthing from within. If you don't have a local mentor, you can get the home study, or simply get the book and do the exercises. It's very helpful is building up a coping mindset. And it has really helped me come to a place of peace and understanding about my own birth experience
Thanks! I haven't checked that out and I will!

SAHM to DD (May/07) and DS (Jan/10)
sunshadow is offline  
#19 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
shanniesue2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: walking my path
Posts: 1,543
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
ITA with you that birth is as safe as life gets, and I love that. And it's true that it has been evolutionarily selected to work enough of the time that we have continuation of the species. But I think where we err is that we think it works all the time (by our IMO fairly spoiled definition of working - live healthy baby, live healthy mother, no intervention), and that it is within our control if only we have enough faith/trust/intuition.

This IMO is a fairly adolescent viewpoint, it is a polarization with the medical model which says it never works without help and is oh so scary/dangerous. Neither thing is true IMO, and I wish we could get beyond both the medical scaremongering and the polarized 'birth is fluffy bunnies or its all our own fault' response.
A big yeah that!

mommy to Christopher 2/29/08
shanniesue2 is offline  
#20 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:48 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay, thinking more, if birth is like life, if it is just a natural part of life (which I love and agree with)... why is it the one time in life where if we are ill or have something go wrong, it is a big failing on our part? Why in life if we are ill, we get help and we go on, whereas in birth, if we need help it is some giant mark on our character? What, other than good old fashioned woman hating, would explain that?
thismama is offline  
#21 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 02:53 PM
 
felix23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: on a peaceful pond
Posts: 1,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
No, I don't trust birth at all. I've experienced it two times go horrible wrong very quickly with no apparent reason. I'm kind of scared of pregnancy and birth, it has almost killed me twice. If I ever have another child, I want as much medical intervention that I can get.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
felix23 is offline  
#22 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 03:47 PM
 
LiLStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 3,357
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Okay, thinking more, if birth is like life, if it is just a natural part of life (which I love and agree with)... why is it the one time in life where if we are ill or have something go wrong, it is a big failing on our part? Why in life if we are ill, we get help and we go on, whereas in birth, if we need help it is some giant mark on our character? What, other than good old fashioned woman hating, would explain that?

Not sure if this is exactly what you mean, but biologically, we expect to have illnesses throughout our lives. We have an immune system equipped to deal with it. Illness is "natural". A traumatic birth (usually) has aspects to it that are "unnatural" (whether justified or not, that unnatural cesarean might be life saving at the time, but it also may still be traumatic) and biologically, we do not expect to birth our babies through our abdomen so it is a pretty serious shock to our bodies if it happens! But, no, I don't believe it is a failure on the part of the mother. Sometimes its just bad luck. Sometimes its coercion from OBs.

dd (7) ds (5), ds (2) &3rdtri.gif hbac.gif and the furbabies cat.gifZeus, Dobby, Luna, & Ravenclaw
LiLStar is online now  
#23 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 03:50 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiLStar View Post
Not sure if this is exactly what you mean, but biologically, we expect to have illnesses throughout our lives. We have an immune system equipped to deal with it. Illness is "natural". A traumatic birth (usually) has aspects to it that are "unnatural" (whether justified or not, that unnatural cesarean might be life saving at the time, but it also may still be traumatic) and biologically, we do not expect to birth our babies through our abdomen so it is a pretty serious shock to our bodies if it happens! But, no, I don't believe it is a failure on the part of the mother. Sometimes its just bad luck. Sometimes its coercion from OBs.
Oh I definitely agree that it is a serious shock to the system and that sometimes c/s are unwarranted (um most of the time probably!). I am saying that biologically we expect to have illnesses, yes, and sometimes our immune systems can carry us through, but other times we need medical assistance. Same thing with birth IMO. Biologically we expect to give birth, and why should we never expect to need assistance with birth, as we do with life? Surgery is a shock, c/s interrupts the birth process and physically I do believe our bodies are shocked and kind of bewildered. But same with surgery for other issues, and yet sometimes we do need it. And it doesn't mean we are xyz of a bad thing or failure; it is just part of nature that not everything goes off without a hitch.
thismama is offline  
#24 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 04:08 PM
 
Youngfrankenstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
But same with surgery for other issues, and yet sometimes we do need it. And it doesn't mean we are xyz of a bad thing or failure; it is just part of nature that not everything goes off without a hitch.

But OTOH, many of us feel that birth shouldn't be equated with sickness at all. There are pregnancies and births where "illness" occurs which absolutely needs medicine but otherwise it's not a sickness that needs managing by an OB.

I do agree that if we fall ill with major diseases, we don't blame ourselves for failing. My mil did feel guilty for smoking when she got lung cancer, I understand that, but no one sees a child with lukemia and blames the child for "nature" not being normal.

Mama to 4. winner.jpghomebirth.jpg
Youngfrankenstein is offline  
#25 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 04:11 PM
 
JennTheMomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I trust birth. Its going to happen, you won't be pregnant forever. Sometimes it'll happen the way you planned other times it won't. Mostly it'll be safe, sometimes it can be dangerous and scary.
JennTheMomma is offline  
#26 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 04:17 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein View Post
But OTOH, many of us feel that birth shouldn't be equated with sickness at all. There are pregnancies and births where "illness" occurs which absolutely needs medicine but otherwise it's not a sickness that needs managing by an OB.

I do agree that if we fall ill with major diseases, we don't blame ourselves for failing. My mil did feel guilty for smoking when she got lung cancer, I understand that, but no one sees a child with lukemia and blames the child for "nature" not being normal.
I am equating birth not with sickness but with life. And things going wrong physically is a part of life, but somehow it is expected to never be a part of birth, at least not if we 'trust birth.' I trust birth to be about as reliable as life. Usually all goes well, but sometimes we need help, and that doesn't mean we are a failure.
thismama is offline  
#27 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 04:23 PM
 
Snapdragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SalmonBayDoula View Post
This is a great thread, I have enjoyed reading it. One of my favorite quotes (and at the moment, I can't recall who said it, to give proper credit to???) is

"Birth is as safe as life gets!"

I trust birth because it is an evolutionarily tested process that has been selected to work over thousands of years.

Sharon
I have heard Jeaninne Parvati Baker say that!
Snapdragon is offline  
#28 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 04:27 PM
 
Youngfrankenstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I am equating birth not with sickness but with life. And things going wrong physically is a part of life, but somehow it is expected to never be a part of birth, at least not if we 'trust birth.' I trust birth to be about as reliable as life. Usually all goes well, but sometimes we need help, and that doesn't mean we are a failure.
I agree with that. Maybe the question is for those who are afraid of birth?

Mama to 4. winner.jpghomebirth.jpg
Youngfrankenstein is offline  
#29 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 04:31 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein View Post
I agree with that. Maybe the question is for those who are afraid of birth?
I don't know tho that we either have to fear birth or trust it to be bunnies and fluffy kisses. Yk? I have IMO very little fear of birth for a woman in this culture, and I have had two natural births, the second at home and an incredibly high experience. Yet I don't 'trust birth' in this way I hear about so often in natural birth communities, I don't assume it is wonderful and sweet and will always go perfectly if we just believe in it enough. I think there is another path to be found that is not faith that verges into flaky-illogical-dangerous territory, OR mainstream medical model style terror.
thismama is offline  
#30 of 68 Old 07-01-2009, 04:38 PM
 
*MamaJen*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 5,362
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Great post. I've thought about the topic before. I do hear a lot of mamas on this board saying they trust birth, or have faith in the birthing process. Come to think of it, I've probably made similar comments. But no, like a PP said, I don't trust birth any more than I trust nature (and I grew up in New Orleans). I trust that I'm a competent driver, but I still have insurance because there's a chance I might cause a wreck. Things are usually okay, but sometimes they go wrong.
I had pretty much a textbook perfect homebirth. My mom and my sister also had easy, uncomplicated births. We were the birthing version of a beautiful spring day with blue skies and a gentle breeze. But it's still very common and natural for something to go wrong in birth.
For me, choosing to have a homebirth involved a lot of factors, but on the safety issue, it came down to a game of odds. I figured if I stepped into a hospital I had nearly a 1 in 3 chance of winding up with a C section, a 60 percent chance of getting dosed with pitocin, a high chance of getting sliced open with an epesiotemy, a high chance of the birth and immediate aftermath interfering with establishing breastfeeding, and so on. I figured that if I had a homebirth attended by a highly trained and experienced midwife, I had a very high chance of having a safe and uncomplicated birth, or being able to quickly transfer to a hospital at the first sign of something beyond her ability to handle. I accepted the statistically tiny but still real risk of something happening that could have been handled in a hospital but could lead to death or injury at home.
Throughout it all, I did have a sense of overall trust and confidence in my own body's ability to birth easily and safely, and that wound up being true. But I still knew there was a chance that my body would become the equivalent of an earthquake or hurricane.

Jen, journalist, policy wonk, and formerly a proud single mama to my sweet little man Cyrus, born at home Dec. 2007 . Now married to my Incredibly Nice Guy and new mama to baby Arthur.
*MamaJen* is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off