Changing "Birth Language" - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 08-30-2009, 02:04 PM
 
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yeah, i don't really like the "surge" thing either. i have no problem calling contractions contractions. that doesn't scare me. the is a/ has muscle(s) and it/they contract.

but i am thinking of studying hypnobabies, and they use other language, surges or waves or something. i'm trying to decide if it would be easier to go with their language so i don't have a mental block to the info, or keep my own language...... just have to see what works.

me+him for 15 yrs, welcomed our little one march 25th, 2010.

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Old 08-30-2009, 05:20 PM
 
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I am another one that does not say birth with the c-section of my daughter. Yes she was born that day, but I did not give birth to her. She was taken from me. Then she almost died, was resuciated(sp?), and transfered to a NICU an hour away. I had nothing to do with her being born except repeatedly passing out on the table.

Maybe its me putting out there that I had nothing to do with her almost dying. I don't want that as my responsibility.

These are my exact words, "I did not give birth to her. She was taken from me." Said during one of my many freakouts after her being born. I don't care how you feel about yours but these is my feelings.
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Old 08-30-2009, 06:16 PM
 
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A mother should be able to call her birth experience whatever she wants to and I think it is valid, no matter how cold or insulting the term may be to another woman...and that goes all ways.

But to argue semantics on the subject of what "counts" as an actual birth, is a bit foolish. The birth WE around here speak of, with such respect and in all attempts to honor the event, is an amazing, powerful magic....it transcends the physicality of itself. Whether it is the creative spark which gives birth to an awesome idea, the birth of a magnificent star out in the universe, a spiritual rebirth or the day a baby joins us on this side of the spirit world...it is much more than it's own mechanics. It is an amazing, breath snatching new beginning. The main character of a story, completely unwritten, is introduced to us for the first time...and it BEGINS!


It doesn't matter how that happens...and it is a birth; not because the gates of entry were a woman's vagina as opposed to an inscision in her abdomen, but because a person emerges and a great adventure begins. HOWEVER, that birth is as much a part of the mothers own path as it is this new characters, and she needs to process it and feel about it whatever she truly does in her heart. You can't begrudge a woman who feels sick at her "birth"....that's HER hurt to carry and she should be allowed to do so how she needs to.

The more creative and spiritual sense of birth is more important than the physical aspect of birth or where it took place...you cannot, in any fashion, emerge from the womb and into the world for the first and last time, and avoid being called "born".

Me and DH ...lovin' DD dust.gif(6/08) and DS kid.gif(11/09) Plus NEW BABY!! DD baby.gif (UC-5/12) We heartbeat.gif Water Birth/Homebirth/No Vax or Circ/BF/BW/Country Livin'! chicken3.gif

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Old 08-30-2009, 06:40 PM
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I'm a glutton for punishment, I guess -- and am back.

First, thank you for your apology AverysMomma. And I wanted to say that I agree wholeheartedly with your post below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post
A mother should be able to call her birth experience whatever she wants to and I think it is valid, no matter how cold or insulting the term may be to another woman...and that goes all ways.

But to argue semantics on the subject of what "counts" as an actual birth, is a bit foolish. The birth WE around here speak of, with such respect and in all attempts to honor the event, is an amazing, powerful magic....it transcends the physicality of itself. Whether it is the creative spark which gives birth to an awesome idea, the birth of a magnificent star out in the universe, a spiritual rebirth or the day a baby joins us on this side of the spirit world...it is much more than it's own mechanics. It is an amazing, breath snatching new beginning. The main character of a story, completely unwritten, is introduced to us for the first time...and it BEGINS!


It doesn't matter how that happens...and it is a birth; not because the gates of entry were a woman's vagina as opposed to an inscision in her abdomen, but because a person emerges and a great adventure begins. HOWEVER, that birth is as much a part of the mothers own path as it is this new characters, and she needs to process it and feel about it whatever she truly does in her heart. You can't begrudge a woman who feels sick at her "birth"....that's HER hurt to carry and she should be allowed to do so how she needs to.

The more creative and spiritual sense of birth is more important than the physical aspect of birth or where it took place...you cannot, in any fashion, emerge from the womb and into the world for the first and last time, and avoid being called "born".

What gets me about people trying to say that my c-section was not a matter of giving birth is that my experience was, I bet, just as transcendant and amazing as that of any woman who birthed her child naturally. I labored for 36 hours and got to 9 centimeters before we had to do the c-section, so it's not like I wasn't involved in the birth of my son. When it became clear that we were going to have to go the c-section route, my husband and I cried. I grieved for the loss of my vision of what his birth would be. But you know what? The moment he entered the world (and I knew before he even cried -- you can feel what's going on w/a c-section) none of it mattered. I've never experienced a high like that moment. It was unbelievably overwhelming and wonderful. I get misty thinking about it. And yes, that was the moment I gave birth to my son -- and it was amazing. For people to try to belittle that experience as nothing more than surgery . . . ? Well, it's baffling and pretty infuriating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflowergirll View Post
One thing I was thinking about while reading this thread is that Marsden Wagner says that a 10-15% csection rate is optimal. Too high and unnecessary csections with their associated complications are performed (US). Too LOW and women/children are dying/damaged when csections are not performed (some developing countries).

So, 1 out of 10 women NEED a csection. That is a lot of women. They grow their babies and their babies exit their bodies through one opening or another.

Isn't that birth?
And I think, sunflowergirll, you also touch on a very important issue. Thank you for bringing that up.
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Old 08-30-2009, 06:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MLA View Post
<snip>The moment he entered the world (and I knew before he even cried -- you can feel what's going on w/a c-section) none of it mattered. I've never experienced a high like that moment. It was unbelievably overwhelming and wonderful. I get misty thinking about it. And yes, that was the moment I gave birth to my son -- and it was amazing. <snip>
I'm so happy for your joy...the only thing more jolting, in the emotional sense, than experiencing that moment yourself, is listening to another mama talk about how it felt for her. s I love hearing mamas talk about about that moment.


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Originally Posted by MLA View Post
<snip>For people to try to belittle that experience as nothing more than surgery . . . ? Well, it's baffling and pretty infuriating.<snip>
But we all walk our own paths. Another woman could have experienced that exact same birth you described above and walked away devastated and angry at what happened. And that has absolutely nothing to do with how GLAD she is to finally know her baby...it is about her heart in relation to her birth - all who become mothers experience a transformation of self which is completely unique to her...that is a sacred happening in a persons life whether it is completely positive or not, it is between her and her own spirit and it can't be judged (just as the root of the mothers feelings about HER birth are not in any way a judgement on YOURS).

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Old 08-30-2009, 10:15 PM
 
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I'm surprised no one has touched on the subtle change in the use of the term "natural birth" in general society. I have known women who were induced with pitocin, received epidural anaesthesia, and gave birth with episiotomies and vacuum extraction to boot. These women say that they are relieved to have had a "natural birth."

I don't generally have the heart to tell them that no, they did not have a natural birth. At all. They had a *vaginal* birth, as opposed to a surgical/c-section/whatever-we're-calling-it birth, but it was not *natural*. Using those two terms interchangeably like that, IMO, is part of what normalizes the medicalizaion of the birth process.

Writer, wife to a great DH, AP mama to one sweet boy 6/07 and expecting a girl in October!
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ChristineIndy View Post
They had a *vaginal* birth, as opposed to a surgical/c-section/whatever-we're-calling-it birth, but it was not *natural*. Using those two terms interchangeably like that, IMO, is part of what normalizes the medicalizaion of the birth process.
i would never say this to anyone in that situation either, but i completely agree. almost every woman i've known around my age group has said, yes, i plan on a natural birth. and yet, even ones open to midwives leave it at that. there's no depth to the discussion, or real exploration/preparation to make it happen. women i know have trusted the system, without cause imo.

it can make planning a natural birth lonely sometimes, which is why cyber friends are so fun! and i'm so, so blessed that my sister is also pregnant and planning a home birth.

btw, this is in NO way meant to be judgemental of anyone's birth choices or outcomes!!! we are talking language here

me+him for 15 yrs, welcomed our little one march 25th, 2010.

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Old 08-31-2009, 01:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Regarding "Delivered," it has a long history, and the actual meaning doesn't bother me:

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French deliverer, delivrer, from Late Latin deliberare,

from Latin de- + liberare to liberate
Date: 13th century To be born is to be set free. To give birth is to free a new soul into the world.

I kind of like it.
I have a different reaction to the idea of delivery as liberation. Generally liberation is used to refer to being freed from a negative place. But the womb is a safe place and what bothers me about this aspect of the word is that it encourages the idea that babies need to be saved from their mothers which is a big part of obstetrics today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflowergirll View Post
One thing I was thinking about while reading this thread is that Marsden Wagner says that a 10-15% csection rate is optimal. Too high and unnecessary csections with their associated complications are performed (US). Too LOW and women/children are dying/damaged when csections are not performed (some developing countries).
That may be true in developing countries, I don't know enough to say. I think 10-15% is way too high for developed countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineIndy View Post
I'm surprised no one has touched on the subtle change in the use of the term "natural birth" in general society. I have known women who were induced with pitocin, received epidural anaesthesia, and gave birth with episiotomies and vacuum extraction to boot. These women say that they are relieved to have had a "natural birth."
I absolutely agree! It's very frustrating!

I'll throw out a language problem that is related to newborn babies: uncircumcised. The prefix UN is a negative - UNhappy, UNfulfilled, UNdercooked, UNpleasant, UNdeveloped etc. UNcircumcised makes the circumcised penis sound like the default when it isn't. It makes parents who choose to leave their boys intact sound like they are making the radical choice when they aren't. Males with their foreskins should be referred to as intact, complete, or whole. It's one of those language changes that could actually make a difference :-)

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Old 08-31-2009, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ChristineIndy View Post
I'm surprised no one has touched on the subtle change in the use of the term "natural birth" in general society.
Actually, I think most people really do still associate "natural birth" with "no pain meds" birth... but they may SAY "natural birth" to mean "vaginal" simply because it is impolite to use the term "vaginal" in certain circumstances. For example, when I was talking to the HR lady & she said, "Generally your doc has you on medical disability leave for 8 weeks for CS & 6 weeks for natural." I really think she just didn't want to say "vaginal." Nevermind the fact that I had no "docs" anyway.

Also, when DS was born & everyone was visiting at the hospital, my sister was PG & a friend of DH's asked her if she also planned a natural birth. She said, "Well, with my son, it was natural in that he came about of my vagina! But that was it! I had an epidural."

So they all seemed to agree that "natural" = "no epidural."
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Old 08-31-2009, 07:12 PM
 
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"Overdue" and "deliver" are my pet peeves.

"Overdue" ESPECIALLY bothers me for women under 41.1 weeks as the "average" is 41.1 for first time moms, not the stupid 40 based on an observation of moon cycles hundreds of years ago.

Unfortunately, "deliver" is quite accurate for so many births. The ones where the moms take no active part until they're told to push, forceps/vacuum used (especially when done out of impatience), pit is constantly upped to force the baby out, cesareans, etc. Not saying a woman can't have any/all of that and NOT "birth" their baby, but when they hand the power over and are not active in the birth, except to push...yes, I think the term "deliver" is more accurate..in which case, there is no, "I delivered my baby," but rather, "Dr. So-and-so delivered my baby." I think "extraction" every time I think of those scenarios. I think it's more fitting in some cases, and was 100% accurate during the days of twilight sleep. *shudders*

Also, "section" isn't as bad to me as "c-section," as I've only read "section" on here. Never heard someone say it, always c-section or occasionally cesarean. But even "cesarean" doesn't always remind people that it's major abdominal surgery. Many people don't even realize that's what it is, sadly enough.

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Old 08-31-2009, 07:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LiLStar View Post
I do feel that my dd was "born" and it was HER birth. But it was NOT mine. I do not feel that I birthed her. To me its like.. pick a sport. Imagine scoring every single point in a very close tie game. Then someone else comes along and makes the winning point. I did all the work, but someone else comes along and scored the last goal, the one that finished and won the game. I felt so cheated. I labored for 2 days for that baby, ALL THAT WORK, and it had to end in an operating room. And its one of those gray area c-sections where it definitely wasn't an emergency, no distress, going perfect. But I had (and I'm seriously not exaggerating one bit) been fully dilated for over 24 hours before surgery. purple pushing, the works. Its been an odd thing to process. No emergency, started as a home birth so its not like I can point fingers and blame the OB for unnecessary interventions or anything. Do I blame.. the baby? for not rotating? No not really. So it all goes back to me. My body. Which is why I was so impatient to get pregnant again, and caught the first pp egg. I needed to prove, to myself, that my body worked. Because I couldnt blame induction, or epidurals, or asinine hospital policies, or a crappy unsupportive nurse, or not being educated enough.. so I was all the more *desperate* to prove to myself I could do it. (and I did)

Whew.. kinda got OT for the thread. idk where THAT all came from.

Anyway. Awhile ago, I decided that even if I couldn't birth my daughter, I could still give birth to her. I think I started showing her birth videos on youtube when she was 6 months old. She's had a front row seat at all the prenatals, would get a turn listening with the fetoscope. She would have been able to watch her brother be born if she were awake, but will be invited next time. I will do everything I can to make sure birth is normal to her. I will teach her that her body is amazing, and beautiful, and powerful. I will be open with her about any questions she has about her body/menstrual cycles. And if I sense she's simply the type to be too embarassed to ask, I'll discreetly give her books that show it in a positive light (and that don't perpetuate the 28 day cycle myth) THAT is how I will give birth to her.
Wow. THAT needs to be told to post-cesarean mamas. It doesn't lessen the severity of a cesarean, shows how beautiful VBACing is, and gives a sense of power to CHANGE. Mind if I steal it? Credit given, of course.

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Old 08-31-2009, 07:41 PM
 
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The Cesarian section is a magnificent rescue operation, as was eloquently stated by Michael Odent.
Just like formula. They used to be amazing life-saving tools for mothers/babies who needed it and might have died otherwise...now we far more either dying or otherwise unnecessarily harmed from the over-use of these once beautiful things. All in the name of money and convenience.

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Old 08-31-2009, 07:43 PM
 
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Wow. THAT needs to be told to post-cesarean mamas. It doesn't lessen the severity of a cesarean, shows how beautiful VBACing is, and gives a sense of power to CHANGE. Mind if I steal it? Credit given, of course.
Have at it!

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