Keeping your Lips Zipped around Mainstream Mamas – SO HARD! - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 49 Old 08-25-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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#32 of 49 Old 08-25-2009, 05:08 PM
 
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i don't necessarily bite my tongue....but i don't criticize another mother's choices either. its a very fine line.

i have a co-worker who is adamant that she will have a scheduled section. could be medically necessary, shes diabetic.... but shes not even pregnant yet so by then who knows. i would never tell her that thats the wrong decision. they all sort of know i'm the go to person with pregnancy/childbirth questions so if she wants more info....she'll ask.

if she were to get pregnant tommorrow, i have conference notes and book recomendations i could give. i'd probably do the research so i'd know some specifics related to her condition if she asked.

i have a blog and i post good links on facebook pretty reguarly too so i direct interested parties there also.

i try to tailor my advice to the specific person/situation rather than just giving the standard ncb lines. especially if their mind is already made up. if someone hasn't made a decision then i might be a little more persuasive in my conversation.

information is different from advice but too much informations tends to come off the same bad way.
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#33 of 49 Old 08-25-2009, 05:54 PM
 
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BUT... as I mentioned, I know there ARE many women out there who DO blindly trust their OBs. So even if THIS particular woman is not one of those women, I know they exist. & I know they too-often get bad treatment. & it upsets me.
THIS, This right here is why I am studying to become a doula. I can not help everyone, especially those that don't want to know, but I can help the ones that come to me. And I will, some day.

W (26) and C (27) parenting G (11/06 ) and D (2/09 ) plus a new one (3/11)
Sometimes the greener grass is actually AstroTurf, a false promise and nothing more.
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#34 of 49 Old 08-25-2009, 11:08 PM
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wow, this one really hit a nerve.
i don't think i am alone as a preggo when i say that peoples' obviously well-intentioned comments make me miserable. no...truly miserable...to the point that i've pretty much avoided social interaction for the last couple months.
it feels like i'd rather be water-boarded than even go to the grocery store because somebody might make a comment about the frigging chocolate milk in my cart or something.
so why, why, why, do it to somebody else????? the poor woman has to show up at work and would probably like to make it through the day without snarky comments let alone lectures or guilt trips.
everybody has their own cause and this one obviously isn't hers. you might think she is a victim of the health care system but if she's happy she's happy. i have a couple friends who did elective c-sections. they are content, they are great parents, and they are intellegent, functional adults.
there might be something any of us out there are doing that these "uninformed people" might think is equally dumb (eating meat, putting kids in preschool, driving a car instead of taking the bus, eating sugar, not eating sugar, owning a cat, whatever...!!!)

Reluctant 'Sconie, chassid and mama to sweet toughie Ada Bluma 9/9/09 and loving pittie-mix ("Judge the deed, not the breed!")
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#35 of 49 Old 08-26-2009, 01:21 AM
 
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I had a waterbirth, at a birthing center, with a midwife. I loved it. I was prepared for the fact that I might have to go to the hospital, that I might have to have a csection, but I knew that my team of midwives REALLY wanted what was best and safest for me and my baby - and so I would have backup for my wishes if that happened.

I only have one friend that's gone natural. The others have had epis, csections, etc. etc. It bothers me when women say they 'trust' their OB, hell, even their MW, without having read reviews on them, asked about their practices, reasearching what they as the birthing mother feel is best - but what are we to do? Not much.

Sorry to bring this into the conversation, but I feel it's jut like religion - you can't force it on someone. You can't get preachy. You just live your life, proudly, loudly, don't let anyone think you did/do anything different, and if that interests them, they'll come asking. But shoving it down someone's throat is only going to make them think 'psycho lunatic here...' and not want to know anything about it, because it's *different* than mainstream. It is.

My husband tells people about my natural childbith and how much better he thinks it is way more than I do. It's embarrassing! I'm proud of it, but I don't want people to feel that their choices aren't valid ones, either - because they are.

I think that, in the end, all that matters is a healthy baby.
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#36 of 49 Old 08-26-2009, 01:42 AM
 
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Do you realize that your co-worker probably felt like you were harassing her? In the future, try saying "I did a lot of research when I was pregnant so I know a lot about this stuff---if you want help or need information, let me know!"
I agree.

I mean this in the kindest way because it's clear you meant it with all good intentions.

But I am one of those people that love OB's - am pregnant again and have decided on a 38 week induction with an epi and don't care if it goes to a CS.

If it had have been me standing in front of you, you would have gotten more than a "hmm".......each is to their own. It would be like if I instigated a conversation with you telling you that you're crazy for wanting to feel pain, letting nature take it's course and you are putting yourself at risk with a hands off approach. No one can tell you what's right for you except you.

Like I said, my intention isn't to be mean - I just want to show you the other side
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#37 of 49 Old 08-26-2009, 09:39 AM
 
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I think that, in the end, all that matters is a healthy baby.
I have to disagree with this. I think statement is what allows our HCPs to continue practicing non-evidence-based medicine. To say that to a woman who went through a hellish induction or ended up with an unnecessary episiotomy or forceps/vaccum delivery that left her with permanent pelvic floor damage trivializes the whole situation. We should absolutely be thankful when our babies arrive unharmed and healthy-- BUT -- some drs/MWs seem to think this gives them the license to treat women less-than-optimally during pregnancy, labor, and birth. Healthy babies matter a great deal, but so do healthy non-traumatized Mamas.

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Baby Aerick is here! Born at 40+6 on 5/16/10
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#38 of 49 Old 08-26-2009, 11:02 AM
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i think that we need to extend the idea of what a "healthy baby" is to include that a healthy baby has a healthy, happy mother. in order to have a healthy, happy mother, you have to have the right kind of care for that mother. to care properly for the mother is to care properly for the baby.

so, even if we do assert that "in the end, all that matters is a healthy baby" then we are also assuming that the mother is included in that.

beyond this, though, it's not about being unwilling to speak up, or about not speaking up, or what have you. it's really about being sensitive to the individual mother.

there are places where we can advocate freely--public events and forums, etc--and there are places where we cannot--work being one of those places, imo. this is not to say that you cannot speak with a coworker about these issues, but it should be out-of-office advocacy, imo.

but even beyond this, it is important to come up with a methodology that works. when i was pregnant--and even when i'm not--when someone asks me for information about something that is both personal and important to me, i don't want to be challenged about it.

for example, i'm vegetarian. i teach yoga. sometimes, people will ask me "are you vegetarian?" and if i say "yes" then i get the various opinions on it from "you're not vegetarian enough if you're not vegan" to "vegetarianism is stupid and unhealthy and no one should be vegetarian" to "stop judging me." even though, i just answered their question to me without any assertion of what value i place on it. for me, vegetarianism is very important, and i didn't choose lightly, and so on--and i know a lot about it and blah blah blah. and i'm the one living it, you know?

when it came to birth stuff, i felt similar. as a UCer or HBer, a lot of folks felt the need to tell me that it was risky or terrible and then recommend their hospitals/OBs or "at least the birth center." it was intense how much well-intended advice i got about not doing what i was doing.

so, i had to think about it. how do i advocate to those who really do NOT want to listen? well, i discovered that piquing their curiousity is where it is at.

when people ask, i answer almost dispassionately. i had a homebirth is just the same as saying i had a salad for lunch. when they say they go to this or that hospital/ob, then i say "oh yes, i've heard good things." it's supportive, slighly more upbeat than the salad-statement. but almost invariably, they *ask* me about homebirth, and when they do, then we move forward.

but let's also go beyond that. it is important for me to be seen as someone that they can "bounce ideas off of." *so* many people do this. so many clients will say "well, i'm going here or doing that, what do you think?" and i'll say "well, what about this or that? what are your thoughts?" and i might provide resources, contacts, or whatever else. but it's always about diverting it away from the heated, political situation that i *feel* when i think about how women are harmed by our culture's idea of "normal" and "safe" birth.

if i separate those two things and realize that i'm working with a thoughtful person, and that i want her to be informed but freely decide and *know* that i support her regardless of what she chooses, then it works out.
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#39 of 49 Old 08-26-2009, 11:09 AM
 
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zoebird, you rock.

i've been following this thread and not saying anything, but you're so right!

just want to add that relationship is the context for any good discussion. and i don't mean it has to be someone you know well. but it has to be relating - caring, loving, reciprocal, humble, unselfish, not just communicating.

me+him for 15 yrs, welcomed our little one march 25th, 2010.

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#40 of 49 Old 08-26-2009, 11:51 AM
 
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So I asked if baby was head down. She said he was & I asked if he was occiput posterior. She said he's facing sideways, so I mentioned optimal fetal positioning. She hadn't heard of the concept & nodded & said something positive like "Oh, interesting."

I think this is you going too far! Many times the less we say, the more impact it has! I am NOT picking on you. I used to feel so strongly about the importance of breastfeeding, I think I was so over-emotional and couldn't really not be angry about it. I have learn, while I feel just as strongly about it, how to chill-out about it. Other's make different choices, uninformed or not! And that's....okay!

I know exactly why you feel the way you do. I agree with you....but we need to focus on getting the message out without over-stepping and bombarding others.

A few weeks ago, a Facebook friend asked me for any advice or books on breastfeeding. My palms got sweaty and my heart started to pound..."OMG, OMG, someone has asked me for advice!!! What is the perfect thing to say and recommend!!!! I want her to nurse sooo much, have support, etc!!!"

I had to take a deep breath and recommend 2 books, one of which it turns out she'd read.

It just makes me feel like she might reach out to me for more advice if she needs it because I didn't overwhelm her or "judge" her before she'd even given birth.

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#41 of 49 Old 08-26-2009, 08:58 PM
 
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To all those saying, "It's none of your business/ What do you care?"

Well... you are correct that what this particular woman does is none of my business whatsoever.

But I still care. I care because women in America are being victimized. (As I've already said repeatedly, I dont' know if this woman falls into the camp of "blindly trusting her OB & therefore too likely to get damaging anti-evidence-based care.") But there ARE lots of women who DO fall into that camp.

That bothers me, so I care. & if I CAN do something to prevent victimization of women & damage to women & babies, I would like to. I don't think I'm wrong for that.

(Yes, again, I can't assume this woman falls into that camp and I shouldn't (and I won't) harass her personally. But it's a feeling I have that I want to warn everyone to be sure they're an educated consumer. I don't think it's wrong of me to have that feeling. I don't think it's wrong of me to want to help people from being victimized. (It's only wrong to act on it & harass people!! & I do realize that!)
I will be one who says it! I wish someone who really cared & KNEW facts would have intercepted me during my first pregnancy to tell me about midwives & homebirth. It probably would have been enough to prompt me to ask around & find my midwife (who I didn't find until baby #3!) who is very skilled in breech birth...I have kicked myself so many times over my failure to go beyond my OB that first time. I read every statistic I could & read every possible natural childbirthing thing I could find to help, but everything always was linked to hospitals, so I never questioned *that* piece of the pie, yk?

I have been cut open twice when I could have avoided both cuts & never had to learn the hard way how traumatic a c/s could be & how nightmarish it is even now looking back (I've had several friends end with unwanted c/s for failed inductions, etc. & I absolutely break down for the rest of the day remembering my c/s...I am scarred in so many ways that I don't want anyone else to feel!). I know that that something could've gone wrong even with a HB midwife & I still could have had a c/s with either of my first two, but it wouldn't have been a guarantee like it was with the hospital...

I try to educate other women as much as I can and as subtly as I can...especially if I'm not close to them. One of my DH's friends had a wife who was due right around when I was with my third & I really feel like I may have saved her from a c/s because I shared a lot of information with my DH's friend about unnecessary inductions as well as the complete list of preE symptoms so that they would be educated instead of complacent. My DH's friend managed to back the doctor into a corner, so to speak, & found out that even the doctor acknowledged that there was no medical need for the induction they kept scheduling for her...She went on to deliver on her own with no interventions

Those of us who know the truth need to share. Nicely. Not being pushy. But we need to share because otherwise no one knows the truth & others *will* be victimized more than they already are. Those who know & choose a different path than me? Well, as long as they know the options & understand, then that's up to them!

Stepping off the soap box (for now!!)...
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#42 of 49 Old 08-27-2009, 04:22 AM
 
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Well ...

Maybe I'm being pushy, but when a friend or family member is pregnant, I send an email their direction. I include a list of books I read and found useful while pregnant, including suggestions to read "The Thinking Woman's Guide," and books about breastfeeding, and some books about the first few years. I usually say something like "Well, now that you're becoming a parent, you'll be getting all sorts of unsolicited advice. It bugged me to no end. But allow me to pile on with this advice! Feel free to use or ignore it, as you see fit. You'll find that what works for one family may not work for your family, and vice versa - part of parenting is figuring out what works for your own family, etc."

I'm known as a bit of a 'wonk,' and I say upfront in the email that I just hope the information is helpful for them ... that I read a lot of stuff that wasn't useful or helpful or accurate, and these were the ones which I liked the most in the end, if they're interested. And call if you have questions about any of it. I always say too that we have had natural births, and if they have any questions about it, I would be happy to discuss with them, if they're wondering about it.

....I've had several friends thank me for the email, some more than once. So, I don't know - maybe a few thought I was pushy, but on the balance more than that thought it was helpful. I think that tone/approach can really make a difference in how the information comes across to those we're communicating with.

And I do agree ... when I was pregnant with Ina, I just assumed that we'd deliver naturally with no issues. I didn't know to research my OB (no MWs here), I didn't know to do any more than the 'mandatory' hospital birth class. Reading stories here and elsewhere, I realize that I was really, really lucky. My OB actually is low-intervention and supportive of natural birth. I could so easily have ended up just trusting my OB and getting cascaded into a c/s, and only realizing what happened later.

If someone had suggested that I read Goer's book, etc., I know that I would have been far more informed and capable, if something had come up. (When I recommend the book, I note that she's pro-home birth, but that obviously I've done two hospital births, I think the information is helpful for all women regardless of how they choose to give birth).

Sometimes it's simply finding a way to help people find information to make informed decisions.

....That all said - yes, sometimes I struggle when talking birth stuff with mothers who've made other decisions (or worse, had them foisted upon them). One thing I that I do whenever I hear about episiotomies, is say "Wow! Your OB/hospital still does those? They're banned at our hospital." (which is only slightly stretching the truth - they're only supposed to happen if the baby is in danger) .... I think sometimes just hearing that there are other ways or approaches can make people rethink procedures they take for granted. I'd think that a similar comment about "no food while in labor" or etc. would also have a similar effect.

I find a lot of my conversations end up being defense of "no, really, I'm not that tough/brave" (because of unmedicated births), if people talk much about it. It frustrates me when people act like I'm some mountain woman or something, for natural birth. Especially when it's around other women who haven't had a baby yet, because it immediately makes anything I say in support of natural birth or etc., sound like it's unreachable. Once someone says, "Oh, elanorh is just a superwoman, you want the epi!!" it's very difficult to counter in a way which doesn't discount THAT woman's experience, etc. I usually just say, "Well, you don't know what you can handle 'til you try it, each woman is different." But even that is probably awkward.

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#43 of 49 Old 08-27-2009, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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it immediately makes anything I say in support of natural birth or etc., sound like it's unreachable.
I run into the same problem. My co-workers know I had a natural birth & I was dead-set on having one. although for me, I AM a tough cookie! So I won't deny that I know for a fact I'm stronger than the average chick.

BUT... what upsets me so much is Women seem to think if they DO want the epi, there's NO POINT GETTING EDUCATED! If they aren't interested in trying natural birth, why bother listening to ANYTHING Meg has to say??? & Meg in particular aside, why bother questioning the OB?

I actually read exactly that on a discussion board once:
"I didn't have a "Birth Plan" because my 'birth plan' was 2 sentences - 1. I want an epi. 2. Do whatever you have to to get the baby out."
So, yeah, I'd say that's a chick who is in that camp of not being an educated consumer & at great risk for anti-evidence-based abuse.

Which makes me really sad because it certainly IS possible to chose an epi but STILL try to get evidence-based care (i.e. don't let them induce you for no reason! Avoid episiotomy, don't let them AROM & pit-to-distress, etc.)
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#44 of 49 Old 08-27-2009, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think this [mentioning optimal fetal positioning] is you going too far!
Ya know, I don't totally disagree with you. I really struggled with whether or not to say it. I really did.

BUT - the discussion was already of a personal nature. Another co-worker was starting the betting 'pool' on when she'd deliver & what the weight would be (gender is already known.) So PG Mama mentions how they estimated the weight. Others ask what it was & she says, "I'm not telling you that! Then you'll have an unfair advantage!" (Making me think she would have told us otherwise!)
New-VBAC mama says, "Yeah, they're supposed to gain X amount [can't remember] per day now, right?" PG Mama looks dismayed & confirms that. (making me think the they're saying baby is big already...)

As I struggled with whether or not to mention OFP, I was pretty confident that:
1. She didn't know how important it is for baby to be Occiupt Anterior
2. She didn't know that you can do things to help ensure baby is OA (yeah, you cant guaratee it, but you can help increase the odds.)

Sure enough, she definitely didn't know about #2 and it seemed like she didn't know about #1 either. So my presumption was correct.

So my struggle, given my correct presumption, was... Allow her to continue to be uninformed -the downside of which is her risk of CS could be relatively higher [& remember choosing a hospital with a 44% CS rate, her risk of CS is already quite high!] or SPEAK UP - and risk that I annoy her. I felt like speaking up was the lesser of 2 evils - especially since I'm already known as crazy-NCB-girl. I felt like I'd rather her be annoyed by me than be YET ANOTHER lady who ends up with CS for FTP (Due to OP baby).

Yes, I realize she's a grown woman responsible for her own choices - I'm not responsible for looking out for her or anything. But I felt like it was staring me in the face... a person at risk again & I could lend a hand to maybe steer them clear of unknown danger (Again, since she didn't know OFP is possible & didn't know the danger of an OP baby.)

Yeah, I'm lacking self-control on this issue. Guilty as charged! Not being in the company of mainstream mamas discussing birth is probably the best thing for me. : Which brings us back to the title of my thread.. it's "SO HARD" for me!
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#45 of 49 Old 08-27-2009, 11:16 AM
 
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I run into the same problem. My co-workers know I had a natural birth & I was dead-set on having one. although for me, I AM a tough cookie! So I won't deny that I know for a fact I'm stronger than the average chick.

BUT... what upsets me so much is Women seem to think if they DO want the epi, there's NO POINT GETTING EDUCATED! If they aren't interested in trying natural birth, why bother listening to ANYTHING Meg has to say??? & Meg in particular aside, why bother questioning the OB?

I actually read exactly that on a discussion board once:
"I didn't have a "Birth Plan" because my 'birth plan' was 2 sentences - 1. I want an epi. 2. Do whatever you have to to get the baby out."
So, yeah, I'd say that's a chick who is in that camp of not being an educated consumer & at great risk for anti-evidence-based abuse.

Which makes me really sad because it certainly IS possible to chose an epi but STILL try to get evidence-based care (i.e. don't let them induce you for no reason! Avoid episiotomy, don't let them AROM & pit-to-distress, etc.)
Just because someone has an epi doesn't mean that they are weaker then those who have natural births.

And if they woman you mentioned got the birth she wanted, even if it wasn't evidenced based, how was she abused? My OB recommended and I allowed many interventions during my last pregnancy that weren't evidence based. I don't feel abused. My goal was to walk out of the hospital taking the baby with me, and I didn't care about anything else. I got what I wanted, so I'm pretty happy about my birth experience, even thought it was a c-section at 37 weeks.

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#46 of 49 Old 08-27-2009, 11:23 AM
 
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Megboz, I really don't want you to think I don't totally sympathize and agree with the scariness of "normal" maternity care in this country!:

It's just translating that to IRL people who don't know what they don't know.

I am having my 4th baby and felt educated from the first baby. I took a home-birth based childbirth class even though I was using a CNM in the hosp. I thought I was doing and learning.

Researching homebirth and planning one has taught me sooooo much about modern maternity care, it's scary.

Watching The Business of Being Born, reading, Ina May's Guide to Childbirth, and Pushed confirmed many things I thought I knew, but fleshed out so many things that seem obvious.

I don't know which previous poster said it, but I think that e-mail idea when finding out someone is pg is a fantastic idea. It leaves the ball in their court without being pushy.

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#47 of 49 Old 08-27-2009, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Just because someone has an epi doesn't mean that they are weaker then those who have natural births.
Did I say that? I don't think I said anything of the sort! Please quote exactly where I said something like that so I can be sure to clarify in the future.

Elanorh said that people assume she is so tough & brave for having a NCB & she has to convince them otherwise. She has to convince them that it IS attainable! It's not something only "super-women" can do.

I said the same thing.

People assume I am a "Super Woman" & that is the only reason I can do it. They assume NORMAL women can't possibly do it! (As a matter of fact, one co-worker said EXACTLY that to me, she used the term "Super Woman." She said, "I don't know how you Super Women can do it. I needed to go for the drugs." (Sounds like she had kept an open mind though.)

Now, personally, I AM tougher than the average lady! So I CAN'T say, "Oh, I'm not so tough! You could do it." Because I personally AM tougher! But, again, I'm not saying women who choose epis are weak. Just saying you don't have to be extra-tough-super-woman to go natural. (But, yet again, I'll state, I can't personally use myself as an example to prove that fact.) Is that clear?

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And if they woman you mentioned got the birth she wanted, even if it wasn't evidenced based, how was she abused?
I consider an unneccessary, unrequested C-section to be 'abuse.' Period. Do you disagree with that?

If a woman truly wants a CS, than that is her choice.

But if she doesn't want one, and she has so many unnecessary interventions that lead to one, then she has been abused. (Because, as stated above, she has had an unnecessary, unrequested CS). Period.


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My OB recommended and I allowed many interventions during my last pregnancy that weren't evidence based. I don't feel abused. My goal was to walk out of the hospital taking the baby with me, and I didn't care about anything else. I got what I wanted, so I'm pretty happy about my birth experience, even thought it was a c-section at 37 weeks.
That is your choice. You got the birth you want & that is great. Of course you don't feel abused because you made choices & they were respected.

But that is a different scenario from women who end up with an unnecessary CS due to interventions when:.
  1. they didn't know how much each intervention increased their risk of CS and
  2. they didn't know how so much of the intervention was totally unnecessary

Just the fact that you know of the concept of "Evidence-based" tells me you are informed and educated. And you chose to have non-evidencec based care. So, of course I wouldn't say YOU were abused because you made choices & your OB honored them as your HCP & as a service-provider. That is how it should be.

For a woman who is NOT so educated as you, The default should be evidence-based care (if a woman doesn't request otherwise.) Anti-evidence based care that isn't by-request is abusive.
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#48 of 49 Old 08-27-2009, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Youngfrankenstein View Post
Megboz, I really don't want you to think I don't totally sympathize and agree with the scariness of "normal" maternity care in this country!:
Oh I didn't think that at all!! Yeah, I could tell you sympathized & understood where I was coming from. & I also totally understand where you are coming from as well in your statement about me going to far. (As I said, I don't totally disagree! I have trouble controlling myself!!)

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It's just translating that to IRL people who don't know what they don't know.

Exactly. It's tough!
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#49 of 49 Old 08-27-2009, 01:24 PM
 
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Did I say that? I don't think I said anything of the sort! Please quote exactly where I said something like that so I can be sure to clarify in the future.

Elanorh said that people assume she is so tough & brave for having a NCB & she has to convince them otherwise. She has to convince them that it IS attainable! It's not something only "super-women" can do.

I said the same thing.

People assume I am a "Super Woman" & that is the only reason I can do it. They assume NORMAL women can't possibly do it! (As a matter of fact, one co-worker said EXACTLY that to me, she used the term "Super Woman." She said, "I don't know how you Super Women can do it. I needed to go for the drugs." (Sounds like she had kept an open mind though.)

Now, personally, I AM tougher than the average lady! So I CAN'T say, "Oh, I'm not so tough! You could do it." Because I personally AM tougher! But, again, I'm not saying women who choose epis are weak. Just saying you don't have to be extra-tough-super-woman to go natural. (But, yet again, I'll state, I can't personally use myself as an example to prove that fact.) Is that clear?



I consider an unneccessary, unrequested C-section to be 'abuse.' Period. Do you disagree with that?

If a woman truly wants a CS, than that is her choice.

But if she doesn't want one, and she has so many unnecessary interventions that lead to one, then she has been abused. (Because, as stated above, she has had an unnecessary, unrequested CS). Period.



That is your choice. You got the birth you want & that is great. Of course you don't feel abused because you made choices & they were respected.

But that is a different scenario from women who end up with an unnecessary CS due to interventions when:.
  1. they didn't know how much each intervention increased their risk of CS and
  2. they didn't know how so much of the intervention was totally unnecessary

Just the fact that you know of the concept of "Evidence-based" tells me you are informed and educated. And you chose to have non-evidencec based care. So, of course I wouldn't say YOU were abused because you made choices & your OB honored them as your HCP & as a service-provider. That is how it should be.

For a woman who is NOT so educated as you, The default should be evidence-based care (if a woman doesn't request otherwise.) Anti-evidence based care that isn't by-request is abusive.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I took the "I'm stronger then the average chick", as meaning mainstream women who have epis are weak. Needing an epi has nothing to do with stregnth, some births are just more painful then others. My mom has six medication free births, but needed an epi for the seventh.

I'm going to have to respond to the rest later because dd1 just got a screwdriver and took all the handles off of her dresser.

Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker. - Linus
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