Please don't say "they took the baby"! - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 12:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by briome View Post
I say my son 'was born' but I feel I did not 'give birth'. ... Both my children were 'born', yes, they both have birthdays.
But I only 'gave birth' to my second child.
That is how I feel about it. All my children have birthdays, of course, but I only gave birth to my first two; my third was delivered surgically. The experiences had very little in common.

For years I complained about doctors who liked to parallel childbirth with Cesarean surgery, by talking about "birth from above" and "birth from below," but now their terminology seems to have caught on even with natural birth advocates.
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#32 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 12:51 AM
 
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FTR, Pennsylvania is one of the Mid-Atlantic states. We are NOT in the mid-west: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_states Gigantic pet peeve of mine! I do not live in the mid-west! At any rate, I have heard the term, but not for a long time.

I did give birth to my daughter. Does not matter how she came out, she was born. To call it anything less than a birth is demeaning to the biological connection she and I share. I conceived her, I carried her, and I gave birth to her. It was beautiful & it was ours.

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#33 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 12:57 AM
 
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My 1st was a c-section, My 2nd a Vbac. I gave birth to both. Whether my 1st was surgically removed, "taken" or not...I very much dislike when people say I did not birth him. "I" brought him into existence: birthed him. Sharing this....
birth [burth]
-noun
1. an act or instance of being born: the day of his birth.
2. the act or process of bearing or bringing forth offspring; childbirth; parturition: a difficult birth.
3. lineage; extraction; descent: of Grecian birth.
4. high or noble lineage: to be foolishly vain about one's birth.
5. natural heritage: a musician by birth.
6. any coming into existence; origin; beginning: the birth of Protestantism; the birth of an idea.
7. Archaic. something that is born.
-verb (used with object) Chiefly South Midland and Southern U.S.
8. to give birth to.
9. to assist in giving birth; act as midwife for.
-Idiom
10. give birth to,
a. to bear (a child).
b. to initiate; originate: Her hobby gave birth to a successful business.

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#34 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 01:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dogretro View Post
I did give birth to my daughter. Does not matter how she came out, she was born. To call it anything less than a birth is demeaning to the biological connection she and I share. I conceived her, I carried her, and I gave birth to her. It was beautiful & it was ours.
yes I agree--it's demeaning. And I'm a csection mom, doula, ibclc & midwife student very much believing & seeing that csections are sometimes performed in a callous or horrific way that can be seen as ripping the baby from mom (not an ideal birth). But my opinion is don't tell me or any mother that she didn't birth that baby. To me that's like saying "the dr birthed my baby" which HE DID NOT. I did, by unwanted alternative means, but I gave birth.

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#35 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 01:29 AM
 
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Is this a colloquialism? Because I've never heard this.
Yeah I've never heard this either.

Both my babies had birthdays, they were born. DD's was a scary c/s after 30hours of labor and 3 pushing her that she was so wedged into my pelvis the dr's almost couldn't get her out, so I ended up with a T incision that made a VBAC a non-existent possibility. I say my babies were surgical births, IDK, I just haven't heard "take the baby".

I grew two beautiful children, they are here with me and for us they were born. I've never had any negative feelings about my children's births, DD's was a very emergency situation, I was not coerced. I felt something go wrong, my uterus went completely soft, her heart was crashing-I knew that I had done my very best, but something was very wrong. DS's was because things had progressed so far with DD that I have an extra incision due to her being so deep in the left of my pelvis, I ran a large risk of rupture. Much higher than a normal c/s.

I guess my point is I am damn good at growing babies, it's leaving my body that was difficult.

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#36 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 04:35 AM
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i have never heard it used in the area where i lived (mid atlantic states).

but, i have used the phrase myself.

I did UP/UC. by a doctor's reckoning, i would have been 42 weeks when i gave birth, not 40. i can count properly, yes. but doctors count in estimates, and i counted using the ovulation date and some research. so i knew when he would be born.

when he was 38 weeks by my counting, he would usually hang out transverse. that would be 40 weeks by a doctor's counting.

as it was, he was posterior during labor and when he came out.

in my area, a transverse baby at 40 weeks (by their reckoning) would be a c-section. a posterior baby who didn't turn in so many hours of monitored, labor on your back scenario, would also be a c-section.

so, when i talk with some people about how i am very happy with my UC, one of the very reasons for this is that i was able to have a vaginal birth. If i had been with a doctor or midwife, then they would have *taken him from my body.*

yes, he would still be born. yes, he would have been born via c-section. but it wouldn't have been necessary, and it would have been a violation of my body and my son's right to be in the womb until he was ready to be born.

this is not to say that there are not good reasons for c-sections, or that all c-sections are bad, or that i see all c-sections or even most as "taking" the baby. in fact, i normally see it as "the baby is being born via c-section." this is largely because i know so many mothers who are having scheduled second and third c-sections because the laws in my former state didn't allow for VBACs. thus, i knew when their children would be born, and they were in an accepting position for that mode of birth.

but for me, without the element of absolute necessity *in my birth and for my and my baby*, then it is a "taking." it would have been a violent, violation of my body and my son's rightful time in the womb and birthright.

so, i do use it. but it is not flippant or blasee.
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#37 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 05:25 AM
 
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but for me, without the element of absolute necessity *in my birth and for my and my baby*, then it is a "taking." it would have been a violent, violation of my body and my son's rightful time in the womb and birthright.

so, i do use it. but it is not flippant or blasee.
I suspect this is one reason why I felt like my body was violated.
I did not feel like I was given a choice (although I know I could have fought it, but didn't feel comfortable doing so). There were no doctors in my area willing to give me a chance (he was a very large breech baby), and I think that compounded my feelings.

Children deserve the respect of puzzling it out.
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#38 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 08:18 AM
 
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I gave birth to both my sons. One needed extra help to make it out alive, but I gave birth to both of them. The doctor didn't take DS2. I would have a hard time hearing someone say their doctor took their baby. Unless the doctor actually DID take the baby (to the NICU or something).

I feel it really diminishes *my* role to NOT say I gave birth to DS2. I did! It was hard, scary, painful-- just like my perfect vaginal birth with DS1.
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#39 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 09:36 AM
 
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I can't say that I pay a whole lot of attention to what other people say about their c-sections, I don't really care. I've never once said anything like I've given birth, I always talk about when my son was removed or something like that. I don't know if I've ever said taken, but I wouldn't have a problem hearing someone else describe it that way.

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#40 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 03:19 PM
 
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I've only just started using the term "cesarean birth" after reading Birthing from Within. For me, I think it would be important to still consider my child "born" even if it wasn't vaginal because for me, birthing with midwives and having been through an unmedicated vaginal birth, the situation would have to be pretty dire for me to have a cesarean birth, and there's no way I would want to differentiate between my girls. One was born and one was taken? I don't think so.

So I have to disagree with MacBeth's witches on this one. Not born of a woman? Sure he was.
That's good for you, and if you ever have a cesarean, feel free to call it that. If you ever refer to any of my cesareans, as a "cesarean birth", I'll be sorely tempted to spit in your eye. Just saying.

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HA! I was just wondering about what you would call birthdays if you don't consider a c-section a birth! I guess I can't say how I would really feel about the semantics, since I've not had a c-section. I'm glad you do at least accept "being born" if not "giving birth." I couldn't figure out what word to use other than "born," like when telling a child about "the day you were born."
I don't feel that I was born, either. I use the term "birthday", because that's what people understand. If I said the "42nd anniversary of the day they cut open my mother", people would just look at me funny. YMMV.

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So I'll just leave the semantics to those who've been in the trenches other than that "taking the baby" business. That one simply has to go.
I've been "in the trenches" and I'll call it whatever I freaking well please, thank you very much. The doctor took my baby - five times. You don't like it? Tough.

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#41 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dogretro View Post
I did give birth to my daughter. Does not matter how she came out, she was born. To call it anything less than a birth is demeaning to the biological connection she and I share. I conceived her, I carried her, and I gave birth to her. It was beautiful & it was ours.
FWIW, I grew up looking at my mom's c-section scar. It wasn't beautiful, and I hate that it was "ours". All it ever represented to me was that somebody hurt my mother. That's it. That's all.

And, I think the c-sections (both the one where they took me, and the ones where they took my children) were far more demeaning of he biological connection involved (between me and my mom, and between me and my children) than any label could ever be.

I had no role whatsoever in the transition of my children from my body to outside...none.

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#42 of 57 Old 04-17-2010, 10:21 PM
 
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I'm in Missouri...when someone says "take the baby..." it generally implies an early and/or forced birth-either by c-section or induction.

I've never really understood why people balk at referring to a cesarean birth as a "birth". The baby goes from living inside it's mother, dependent on her body for survival, to being a separate individual supported by his own bodily functions-regardless of how he comes out. I understand a mother having her own thoughts and feelings regarding it for herself, but I don't think it's for anyone else to say whether or not a baby was "born" or not.

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#43 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 01:11 AM
 
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I've never really understood why people balk at referring to a cesarean birth as a "birth". The baby goes from living inside it's mother, dependent on her body for survival, to being a separate individual supported by his own bodily functions-regardless of how he comes out. I understand a mother having her own thoughts and feelings regarding it for herself, but I don't think it's for anyone else to say whether or not a baby was "born" or not.
It might be accurate to say the baby was "born" via CS (although I consider it more of a way of bypassing birth), but I do resist calling a CS "giving birth." Childbirth is a normal, natural physiological function. Surgery is not. If having a surgeon cut me open and remove a baby qualifies as "childbirth" then we need a different word to refer to the normal physical process we used to call "childbirth."
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#44 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 01:16 AM
 
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The doctor did take my baby! Against my will. I call it a surgical extraction.

I never use that terminology around DD though. We celebrate her birthday. She was born...but I underwent a fetal surgical extraction.

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#45 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 04:26 AM
 
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That phrasing totally reminds me of dingos. I agree that it's awful.
*snort* I have a maternity t-shirt that says, over the belly, "Dingo Bait"

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#46 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 04:43 AM
 
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OP: I have been using the phrase, "they'll take the baby sometime between 32 and 37 weeks," but I hadn't really thought about it from that POV. You, and others on this thread, have given me a lot of pause for thought.

I've been using it the same way that, if I needed a break from Cora, I would say, "BFF took Cora for the weekend," or whatever. In our case, the "taking" is going to be quite literal, in that she'll be immediately whisked off to Children's Hospital (with my husband in tow.) But also in the sense of somewhat of a transferring of care. When they do the cesarean, it will be because that is when we need to transfer care of Fiona from my body's main job, to mainly the job of the doctors and nurses who will be helping her. Obviously, we as her parents will still have as much control as we can, but I won't be with her for most of a few days, and it will be the doctors, nurses, and machines taking over where my body left off.

I've been having a lot of problems getting myself psychologically ready for the cesarean (mostly due to the surgery factor, not the not-having-a-natural-birth factor.) Perhaps, if I start calling it, "I'll be delivering her between 32 and 37 weeks" or "they'll help me deliver her..." that might help me. Hmm... You've given me a lot to think about.

totally irrelevant postscript: As a semantics nut, though, I do have to say that I don't have a problem semantically with saying "they took/will take" the baby. Because in a cesarean, the baby doesn't just crawl out her/himself. Someone has to actually take the baby out of the uterus. Just like, when you have a baby around, in your arms, and you need to pee, you say to the person with you, "will you take the baby?" (But I do see the emotional issue with using the phrase.) I also don't see having someone take the baby out of your uterus negating the fact that it's a birth.

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#47 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 05:24 AM
 
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"Birth" is a fluid term, so it's not like someone saying she had an appendectomy when she had a leg set, you know? The baby left the womb and entered the big wide world - seems pretty birthy to me.
This. I truly believe that how a woman feels about her c-section depends entirely on her personality and situation. "Birth rape" scenarios, forced c-sections, sections as a result of the cascade of interventions...those would be, understandably, incredibly difficult to process as a birth and nearly impossible to get over.

However, it is foolish to deny that sometimes, c-sections are necessary for either mother or baby. If one of my friends lamented for years about the loss of their birth experience when the surgery was legitimately necessary would get on my nerves, if we're being honest. Then again, we all tend to have a hard time looking at things from other points of view. I'm fortunate to have gained a vast array of knowledge on birth long before having children. If I ever end up with a c-section, it'll still be birth (to me) and I'll take comfort in knowing it was needed.

Also, I've heard "take the baby" on several occasions. It always refers to an emergency or semi-emergency early delivery due to health problems (either legitimate or exaggerated). I never thought the term could be found offensive.

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#48 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 09:47 AM
 
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*I* didn't give birth to my babies, my obstetrician removed them from my body. Although my first cesarean was traumatic, I'm ok with not having birthed my babies myself, if that makes any sense. I've made peace with the fact that my babies came into the world that way.

Just because I feel as though I didn't give birth doesn't mean I think that every woman who has had a c-section should feel the same way. I also don't get worked up if someone tell me that I *did* give birth - I just don't agree with them.

Everyone has their own personal experience and that experience has molded their feelings about how their child was born. I said I had c-sections, not a cesarean birth. I don't say that I gave birth, but if others feel as though they did that's great for them - it's just not how I feel about my own situation. I was not an active participant in my daughters' entrance into the world. I did not do one thing whatsoever to aid in their arrivals - but I'm ok with that part of it now.

Let's just let everyone call it what they want, and not be offended by other people's feelings about their own personal experiences.
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#49 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 02:25 PM
 
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If one of my friends lamented for years about the loss of their birth experience when the surgery was legitimately necessary would get on my nerves, if we're being honest.
Yeah, because how dare anyone be so upset that her body would have killed or damaged her baby without a doctor's help? She'd better get the heck over it double-quick, because it was her body's failure, not the doctor's, right?

Not every woman who has had a necessary c-section feels this way, but some definitely do. It's not up to anyone else - especially someone who is in the position of knowing their own body does work - to decide what circumstances she's allowed to be upset about. I actually don't believe any of my c-sections were necessary (except my fourth...and it didn't work, anyway), but I don't know that, and I don't find the idea that without those surgeries, I'd have killed my own children all that comforting. YMMV.

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Just because I feel as though I didn't give birth doesn't mean I think that every woman who has had a c-section should feel the same way. I also don't get worked up if someone tell me that I *did* give birth - I just don't agree with them.
I differ from you, because I hate people trying to reframe and redefine my experiences for me. It's so unbelievably arrogant.

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Let's just let everyone call it what they want, and not be offended by other people's feelings about their own personal experiences.
This.

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#50 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 02:40 PM
 
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Yeah, because how dare anyone be so upset that her body would have killed or damaged her baby without a doctor's help? She'd better get the heck over it double-quick, because it was her body's failure, not the doctor's, right?

Not every woman who has had a necessary c-section feels this way, but some definitely do. It's not up to anyone else - especially someone who is in the position of knowing their own body does work - to decide what circumstances she's allowed to be upset about. I actually don't believe any of my c-sections were necessary (except my fourth...and it didn't work, anyway), but I don't know that, and I don't find the idea that without those surgeries, I'd have killed my own children all that comforting. YMMV.
Oh, I absolutely and totally agree with you. I cannot imagine how difficult and upsetting it is to be in a situation where a woman feels her body has utterly failed her. In that situation, there are two types of women. Those who have a really, really hard time getting over it and those who don't. I'm different than a lot of women here in that I don't view having a future c-section (if legitimately necessary) as the loss of a birth. I'm happy that there are trained surgeons who can save that 10%-15% who would either die or have a dead child if left up to natural devices. Obviously I cannot say for sure, since I have never been in that situation and hopefully never will, but so much comes down to personality and neither point of view is right or wrong.

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#51 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 03:19 PM
 
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I'd never thought of it before, but you're right- it is an odd phrase. Seems like the sentiment goes all the way back to Shakespeare, with Macbeth not "born" but "ripped untimely from [his] mother's womb"...

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#52 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 03:23 PM
 
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It may be a southern thing.
I think so too. I never heard this phrase until I met DH's family, who are all southern. They also use it to mean induction of labor for medical reasons.

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#53 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 03:40 PM
 
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speakign only for myself...i have two kids sitting next to me on the couch right now, so obviously they were BORN, but i do not feel like I GAVE BIRTH to them. i conceived them, i gestated them, i even labored with them, but i did not give birth to them. their births were taken away from me. they were surgically extracted. its not a statement of judgement about other people's birth (extraction) choices. i just dont feel like i've ever given birth. i've given life, but for me that whole process did not involve giving birth.

that said, i too hate "theyre taking the baby" bc it implies the choice is the doctors, which sadly in most caases it is. for me, i just say "when my kids were born" in casual conversation, but if someone actually asks and we are talking about birth, i dont see a probelm with explaining that i didi not give birth to my own children.

Bring back the old MDC
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#54 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 03:57 PM
 
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I'm jumping on the "don't tell another woman what to call her birth" bandwagon.

I was in labor for 3 days, over 60 hours with my son and I pushed for 15 hours all at home with no interventions, complete with accupuncture and herbs and acrobatics and everything under the sun to get his head unjammed. Then I chose to have a c-section in consultation with my midwife when we determined he was stuck. I gave a heck of a lot more birth to him than someone who was numb and pushed the baby out in minutes, one might argue. I was also lucky to be a doula and know the best hospital to transfer to, and know how to speak up for myself and my baby and have as little separation as possible. Baby wasn't taken anywhere, he was with me or dad from the moment of birth on.

Birth is insanely personal, period. We each have the right to choose our own language and create our own birth story.
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#55 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 04:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marylizah View Post
I gave birth to both my sons. One needed extra help to make it out alive, but I gave birth to both of them. The doctor didn't take DS2. I would have a hard time hearing someone say their doctor took their baby. Unless the doctor actually DID take the baby (to the NICU or something).

I feel it really diminishes *my* role to NOT say I gave birth to DS2. I did! It was hard, scary, painful-- just like my perfect vaginal birth with DS1.
i've been thinking about this a lot and i feel that the women that do use the phrase, "took my baby" do so for precisely this reason. they feel diminished in some way because their birth was different than a normal birth.

i'm actually interested in the ways that c-sections fit into the natural birth community framework. it seems that there is a feeling that c-sections are only good when necessary but otherwise not "as" good. which i think is probably true for a lot of medical reasons.

but how does that tie in to a woman's feelings of self-worth when she just doesn't measure up? does it put her mental health at risk to know that she's considered not as "good" of a woman because her baby's birth wasn't natural?

i've seen it come up lately in quite a few threads and i think it is an issue worth exploring. i'll actually probably start a spin-off thread so as not to side track this one.

eh. who needs a signature?
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#56 of 57 Old 04-18-2010, 09:17 PM
 
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"but how does that tie in to a woman's feelings of self-worth when she just doesn't measure up? does it put her mental health at risk to know that she's considered not as "good" of a woman because her baby's birth wasn't natural?

i've seen it come up lately in quite a few threads and i think it is an issue worth exploring. i'll actually probably start a spin-off thread so as not to side track this one."


I think you hit the nail on the head there. would love to discuss in a spin off!
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#57 of 57 Old 05-03-2010, 12:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Altair View Post
I'm jumping on the "don't tell another woman what to call her birth" bandwagon.

I was in labor for 3 days, over 60 hours with my son and I pushed for 15 hours all at home with no interventions, complete with accupuncture and herbs and acrobatics and everything under the sun to get his head unjammed. Then I chose to have a c-section in consultation with my midwife when we determined he was stuck. I gave a heck of a lot more birth to him than someone who was numb and pushed the baby out in minutes, one might argue. I was also lucky to be a doula and know the best hospital to transfer to, and know how to speak up for myself and my baby and have as little separation as possible. Baby wasn't taken anywhere, he was with me or dad from the moment of birth on.

Birth is insanely personal, period. We each have the right to choose our own language and create our own birth story.
That's how I feel too. Thanks.
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