Woman charged with murder after refusing C-section - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 01:34 PM
 
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My knee jerk reaction is that the medical profession, all of it, is full of itself and is a sadistic corporate money maker set up for the torturing of anyone they can.

And I think that anyone who claims that court ordered c-sections are the right thing to do are in cahoots with them.

The Life-at-any-cost school of thought is a totalitarian mentality.

"The first thing a principle does is go out and kill someone." --Dorothy Sayers
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#62 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 01:53 PM
 
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I just saw a news report about it on CNN. They're using the "breastbone to pelvis" quote, and reporting that she has a long history of mental illness.

The alarming thing is that they said this could set a precedent for charging mothers who smoke or who don't follow their doctor's recommended diet!!!

I'm starting to think I should move to Australia. I'd go to Canada, but it's too cold.

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#63 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 02:06 PM
 
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Australia or New Zealand would work, but I say we all pool our resources and buy a private island and build our own community.
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#64 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 02:16 PM
 
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Woo-hoo! We can have trained midwives and one well-behaved OB just in case, and all pregnant women arriving on our shores will be considered political refugees and given asylum, no questions asked.

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#65 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 02:20 PM
 
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I can't beleive that they have taken this mother from her newborn baby. They have no way of knowing what would have happend. I am sure the woman made some sort of off hand comment about a scar or something. I feel sorry for her and her loss.
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#66 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, hotmamacita and wombat for the additional links.
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#67 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 02:30 PM
 
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#68 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 02:50 PM
 
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Ok, that link put an entire new spin on this situation.

I still think it is wrong, with a capital W, to charge this woman with murder.

I just can't even phathom this sort of invasion of privacy. It makes me very afraid, and very glad I am not having anymore babies.

What a flippin mess.
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#69 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 02:50 PM
 
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She was giving the babies up for adoption, so the separation from the mother would have happened anyway.

It's interesting how she's reportely quoted as saying she feared she would be sliced open from breast bone to pelvis, but at least one person on the prosecuting side has interpreted this as concern for cosmetic appearance reasons.

Sounds more like she was terrified that they'd do a classic C-section or a T-cut because they were treating it as an emergency. Also, it seems the best light anyone is willing to put her in is that she's crazy, which I suppose is better than being vain to the point of murder.

It is phenomenally arrogant of the doctors, the prosecutors...grrrr

Just because someone signs a piece of paper doesn't necessarily mean they truly understand all the implications spelled out in the legalese of the form, such as the AMA release form.

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#70 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 02:59 PM
 
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I have her mailing addy for those of you who would like to write to her letters of encouragement. Please e-mail me.

I have a full day today and it is something I cannot cancel or I would. So be patient with me. Go ahead and write her a letter and I will get the addy to y'all late tonight.

Also, I am looking into how people can help post bail for this woman. If anyone gets any more information or a contact person for this woman then please e-mail me too.

I gotta go. I check back in late tonight.

Peace mamas....
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#71 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 03:34 PM
 
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Ok, I just read something that said she was on cocaine. Did anyone else read this? I'll find the link.

OK, here it is: http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03122004/utah/147031.asp


Quote:
The boy was stillborn and the girl was in respiratory distress, the nurse said. A doctor reported that the girl also tested positive for cocaine and alcohol in her blood.

I just don't think we're dealing with someone who is refusing a cesarean based on the risk of a cesarean. I think this is a story about someone who has major emotional and substance abuse issues.

Still, for anyone, major surgery would be scary. I mean, this is a woman that went to the hospital in labor and when told that one of her babies was dead and the other was in serious distress, she went out to smoke.

I wonder where the full truth is?

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#72 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 03:38 PM
 
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http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03122004/utah/147031.asp

This article makes me think there's a whole lot more to these charges than the prosecutors thinking she was just vain. The twin born alive apparently tested positive for drugs in her system. I do think this woman is mentally ill and that murder charges could set a dangerous precedent, but once again, it seems as if irresponsible media reporting designed to sensationalize to the highest possible level is going on.
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#73 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 03:47 PM
 
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I will never plan to have a baby in a hospital. How incredibly dangerous.
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#74 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 03:57 PM
 
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:::de lurking:::

Based on everything I have read this woman a)suffers from mental illness of some sort b) was using drugs and alcohol and c) sought medical care not once but on three different times to see if the twins were alive.

Now having read everything, I do believe she should be charged with a crime, not just for killing her child, and yes I believe she is completely responsible for his death, but negligent in the fact she most likely refused to have a surgical birth because she was friggin high and drunk.

Some people say that the surgical birth alone could have killed her babies, well, had she had the csection the day she was told she needed it, there is not a doubt in my mind they would have lived. It doesnt take that long to pull them out and begin resusitatoin measures. Even on weak, fragile babies. I doubt she refused a csection for a scar, but because she was on coke. She probably knew that their were risks and that they would find out and probably charge her with a crime. She even went to an additional place to see if the babies were alive. Umm, ok, well why would she do that? Because she had been snorting coke all night or smoking crack -- this would definitely effect fetal movement.

As a mother of a child, whose birthmother was reckless, I really dont have a problem with her tail end sitting in a jail cell. Why write letters of support to a woman who is not parenting any of her children, doesnt use birthcontrol, acts negligent in medical care, and is doing illicit drugs while pregnant. Sorry, but no way can I write letters of encouragement to this woman. She should be locked up in a jail cell or a mental institution with her reproductive organs gone. The living child is going to be messed up for life.

While I am not for court ordered surgeries, I do think that if you go to a hospital and are told your full term, viable fetus is going to die if not born soon, whether by induction, surgical birth, etc -- and you choose to do NOTHING, and that child dies, well I think you committed a crime. You make a choice to rather have your baby die to avoid having a surgical proceedure, well that is pretty messed up to start with, so face the music -- even if that means a jail cell, losing your child or other children, or being sent to the mental institution. I just have no empathy or compassion for her wreckless, negligent behavior.
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#75 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 04:03 PM
 
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Originally posted by RachelGS
I will never plan to have a baby in a hospital. How incredibly dangerous.

yeah, especially if you're doing cocaine, drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes during your labor.
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#76 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 04:11 PM
 
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#77 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 04:18 PM
 
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My son has early onset bipolar disorder, and I know many people that are bipolar. I dont think anyone here is saying people with bipolar cnat make rational decisions. However I think that unmedicated, untreated mentally ill people do often make irrationall, dangerous decisions.

If this woman was on drugs, she chose to do them. If she was drinking, she chose to do it. Why because of mental illness or addiction should we not hold her repsonsible for the decision that lead to the death of her child?
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#78 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 04:38 PM
 
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INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Thanks for the additional links regarding drugs and such. I'll read them and continue to do more research this weekend.

I feel free to write her an encouraging letter, OTF. Your reasons do not compel me to do otherwise. If you don't want to write her, then I suggest you follow your heart.

Peace,
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#80 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 05:15 PM
 
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I do think that if you go to a hospital and are told your full term, viable fetus is going to die if not born soon, whether by induction, surgical birth, etc...
Well a huge part of the problem is that medical personel tell pregnant women this all the damn time when it simply isn't true. So now they get to cry "wolf" as often as they like and on the rare ocasion they are sadly proven to be correct the WOMAN is prosecuted? Just a couple months ago in New Jersey a hospital told a woman teh exact same thing. She left and they got a court order giving them the right to section her. Because otherwise "the baby would die"! Well, no one told the baby that because she was born just fine vaginally a few days later at another hospital.

Quote:
Asked about a woman's right to make choices during pregnancies, prosecutor Kent Morgan said: "She didn't choose among alternative treatments available. She chose to get no treatment whatsoever."
Which is also a valid choice. Rush told us that years ago and it's still true!

Her public defender said:
Quote:
"This is major surgery," Sikora said of the Caesarian. "It would come as no surprise that a woman with major mental illness would fear it."
Oh man. I have no mental illness and teh idea of any major surgery (section included) scares the tar out of me!
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#81 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 05:38 PM
 
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One of the many versions of the story mentioned that it mostly seems like a breakdown between physician and patient. I totally agree. If she thought that she was getting a T cut and didn't want it and siad so, the doctor could have tried to get down to her reasons. If she didnt' want that cut, h/esh/e should have discussed other options (ie. horizontal cut) or discussed why it was necessary (had that cut before or whatever). I have no knowledge on the dos and don'ts of c-sections, but I know that the doctor, if he/she cared about his patient and his patient's babies, he/she would have had more info on her decision than a questionable concern for her vaniety. He/she would have suspected drug abuse, mental illness, etc. and done something about that or put that into perspective.

Maybe I am expecting too much of an ob/gyn, but if they are going to throw their scare tactics and possibly throw every woman's ability to make sound judgements about their own body, then I am going to have to hold them to a higher standard!
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#82 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 05:55 PM
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Wow.

I have read most all of the posts but none of the links (just can't go there this week) and I cannot begin to tell you all how disturbing this is to me.

My daughter died during the 10 minutes it took me to push her out. Her birth was in the hospital but completely unmedicated (we did Bradley). I was stuck in transition for almost 4 hours because I had .5 lip of cervix and was being told not to push till the lip was gone, my doctor was asleep down the hall. When she finally woke up and came in to check me, she held back the lip, and Xiola was in her hands minutes later. When I started pushing, she had a heartbeat. When she emerged, she was blue and still.

I have actually had people lay the blame on me, saying, "that's why natural birth is so dangerous, dear!". Mind you, I was in a HOSPITAL and we were monitoring FHT with a doppler. My care was ludicrous. My nurses left out FHTs that looked suspect (read-incriminating) and they complained that they were having trouble getting FHTs because of my size. Mind you, my midwife with ds had NO problems getting FHTs with her wood pinard (fetoscope) and I was the same size. The nurses also never told me that I had a cervix that easily stretched up to 1cm, which would have meant that I could have pushed through that last half centimeter easily (I pushed through more then that with ds).

My ability to make sound decisions for my daughter was comprimised by the arrogance and lack of skill of the staff that was supposed to help me birth my child. Even as I insisted that something was wrong, they kept telling me she was fine... which, as I can see in her file, was a lie. If I would have been given all of the information about what was going on instead of just what the nurses chose to share with me, perhaps she would be with us now. My doulas were worse then useless, they were hired to keep the nurses honest, and were too busy playing midwife-wannabee while my doctor slept (this position! no, this position!).

We had over three hours that my body so badly wanted to birth my child, and I was told to wait? Nothing hurts worse then trying to not push when your body knows it needs to. But I was trusting my caregivers to be honest with me and so I didn't push. It is so hard to live with the knowledge that I should have trusted my gut and pushed anyway. Would my daughter be here right now if I would have had a c-section? Maybe. Would my daughter be here had I been disclosed al the details I needed to make a good choice? Would my daughter be here had I told the nurses and doulas to f&*% off and started pushing anyway? I feel certain of it.

With my son's birth (a homebirth, understandably I wanted to stay out of a hospital), the last my midwife checked me I was at 8 1/2 and verrrry stretchy, so a few moments later when I felt the urge to push, I went for it and he was born 23 minutes later. I probably wasn't complete, but I certainly didn't tear my cervix (which is the threat the nurses were using to get me to not push). Since ds was my second, I knew my body better and to trust what it was telling me above all else. If there is only one lesson I have learned from my daughter's death and my son's birth, it is to trust myself and my body.

I guess the points I am trying to make are that hospitals are neither the most knowledgeable, nor the most honest, about birth. Anything that this hospital says I will take with a block of salt because their insurance company is telling them to cover their asses. This may even have been preemptive anyway so that the blame would be on the woman and not the hospital. Also, if this woman was giving her babies up for adoption, did the prospective parents being pissed that they are only getting one baby now (when they may well have paid more in fees to adopt twins) instead of two have anything to do with this? Seems pretty vengeful to me either way.

Wether or not this woman was keeping her babies, she needs to be at home, healing and grieving (the death as well as the adoption) and not in jail. Making an example of this woman like this is only going to make women who are already on the edge (mental illness, addiction, etc) even less likely to seek care for their pregnancies and even more babies will suffer for it. This is a terrifying precedent for women everywhere. In my state, you can get an abortion up to 24 weeks. So, I can choose to kill my baby when it is viable, but I can't have a choice in how my baby is born (I had a hell of a time finding a HB midwife after losing my dd)? Get real. When women fought for reproductive freedom, they failed to realize how crucial it is to have the freedom of choice in when and how we birth our babies.

It makes my blood run cold to think that some zealot who wants to teach pregnant women a lesson about questioning a hospital's 'authority' would send this woman to jail. Hospitals are proving their lack of honesty and compassion every day. They NEED their authority questioned. A vaginal birth in the hospital with no meds at all is $3,000. A casarean birth is ten times that much, not even counting any time in the NICU (which it seems c/s babies get more often then v/b babies). Hospitals make so much more money when women are not given choices in birth. There has been a revival of interest in the art of midwifery and hospitals are scared.

Convicting this poor woman (who should have been supported better by society instead of persecuted by it, IMO) is only going to set a precedent (combined with the moronic new ruling from the AMA about elective c/s) that stands to make hospitals MILLIONS of dollars more then they already do on birth. How frightening, and sickening, to think that in the midst of my deepest grief the police could have dragged me off to jail because I did not choose a c/s and my daughter died... nevermind the fact that I was never offered one... hell, I was never even told she was in trouble. This is just so wrong on so many levels.

Hotmamacita, I am also interested in giving this poor woman my support as well... let's talk about it more after next week, when I am a little more myself again.

Xiola's (and Ezra's) Mama
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#83 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kama'aina mama
Well a huge part of the problem is that medical personel tell pregnant women this all the damn time when it simply isn't true. So now they get to cry "wolf" as often as they like and on the rare ocasion they are sadly proven to be correct the WOMAN is prosecuted? Just a couple months ago in New Jersey a hospital told a woman teh exact same thing. She left and they got a court order giving them the right to section her. Because otherwise "the baby would die"! Well, no one told the baby that because she was born just fine vaginally a few days later at another hospital.
Yes, and there are also cases like mine when they don't bother telling you that there is anything wrong. Hospitals do not have the highest integrity, nor the most comprehensive knowledge and understanding of birth. This double standard is ridiculous... so if they're wrong it's my fault, and if they're right and I think they're wrong it's still my fault? Please!

Coleslaw, I think you are expecting too much of an OB/GYN, but I'm glad for you that your experiences have been good enough that your expectations are that high!

Also remember, folks, that for a woman on pregnancy medicaid (read, most low income pregnant women) that the medicare only pays a portion of the total bill. So the hospitals have a financial interest in making the most expensive care decisions for their lower-income patients. My doctor gave me soooo many NSTs and U/Ss with Xiola... I later talked to a mama who had P/E and she ad maybe 3 NSTs and one U/S, but she had private insurance. My doc was not making as much per proceedure, so she did more proceedures to make up for it... all in the name of safety. When I questioned it, she would invoke fear (well, we just need to make sure she's doing all right) and of course I would give in, out of fear for my sweet dd.

With Ezra's pregnancy, I had one U/S at 18 weeks for my mental health and no doppler ever. But I also had a midwife who was more concerned with supporting my pregnancy with nutrition and love then with watching me like a bug in a jar, waiting to find something wrong. As a UCer would point out, when you are looking for trouble, it tends to find you.
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#84 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 06:12 PM
 
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XM, thank you for sharing Xiola's story. ((Hugs))
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#85 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 06:20 PM
 
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Contact info for the DA's office involved in the case. Includes phone and fax numbers.

http://www.districtattorney.slco.org...s/justice.html

Kent Morgan is the one quoted in the Deseret News article. In their online system, her earlier child endagerment charge is listed, but her murder charge throws an error. (irony, yes?) It looks like the birth was Jan 13, she was jailed and charge with endangerment at that time...they only just added the murder charge. She's been in jail 2 months.

http://www.slco.org/DADaily/DaActiveCase
Rowland, Melissa Anne
two charges
4000843 (child endangerment)
4004311 (murder...if you type it in by case number you'll see it.)
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#86 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 06:21 PM
 
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I imagine that...

...the day is coming in which the state will monitor all women of childbearing age...

...when a woman is identified as pregnant, she will be put into a special state institution and monitored for diet, nutrients, health, habits, and exercise. All interactions will be videotaped....

...that all pregnant women will stay in this place and be monitored continuously for blood pressure, glucose levels, weight, iron levels, exercise, sleep, reading material, musical appreciation, and anything else that can impact the well-being of the embryo/fetus/newborn. Parenting classes are mandatory and failure to complete them will be detrimental to the woman taking her child home after delivery...

...that all women will be forced to deliver there on the terms of the state and released only after the birth of the child...

...the state ob will determine the method of delivery...

...all babies will receive vitamin K, silver nitrate, vaxes, formula, sugar water...

...the state will decided if the woman is to take the baby home or leave the baby there to be adopted into the general population...

NOt to stir up trouble, but the irony for me is that she could probably have decided to have a late term abortion and everything would have been fine.

This is really worse than Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, in which babies are cultured in vitro and gestated in bottles with nutrients to determine their station in life. How very sad that our society sees women and women's responsibilities in this light...

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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#87 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 06:32 PM
 
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I'm so confused.


So a fetus is not separate from the mother if she chooses to kill it intentionally via abortion, but is considered an entirely separate person if it dies naturally while in the womb? A mother is responsible for a stillborn but not an abortion?


And I thought I was risking a lot by fighting for my HBAC. Thank goodness I wasn't charged with child endangerment.
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#88 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 06:44 PM
 
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To understan more about this trend regarding criminal charges and fetal rights -

national right to life org resource page on fetal rights legislation
http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_victims/index.html

two quick pro-choice oriented sites...not as well organized but I was in a googling hurry:

http://www.aclu.org/ReproductiveRigh...ID=15115&c=144
http://www.reproductiverights.org/hill_pri_uvva.html
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#89 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 06:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by dado
is that really the issue here? we're talking about massively invasive surgery. i don't see what difference her reason makes, civilized societies simply do not cut open the bodies of their citizens without willing consent.
thank you.
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#90 of 357 Old 03-12-2004, 06:59 PM
 
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Applejuice, I have the same nightmare.

XM, thank you so much for sharing your story.

If you say, she's being charged with murder because she did drugs, or because she was bipolar, then I bet you believe you could never be charged with murder for refusing a c-section because you don't do dugs and you're not bipolar.

Everybody know the famous saying, they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew?

They're coming for the mamas first who no one will speak up for.
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