Woman charged with murder after refusing C-section - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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Old 03-13-2004, 11:36 AM
 
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Originally posted by XM

My understanding is that even in an emergency, it takes 1 hour to prep the patient and assemble the team for a c/s. If anyone with the facts can verify or correct me, please do. But even 30 minutes is a long time when you can lose a baby in less then 10.

Not an hour, not 30 min. In my case with a spinal that didnt work, less than 10. I felt the whole thing, and a team of people were slicing me before I could barely scream I could feel it.
My neighbor has her OP report, from the time they detected the prolapse cord, to the time her baby was out in the OR under GA was less than 7 minutes. She says that going down the hall into the OR was like a dream before she said they got her through the door they were shooting drugs in her IV, masking her, etc. She has a T cut. Her husband said that they actually pushed him out of the room and there was a team of people doing stuff in a matter of minutes and that an alarm was going off. Now some hospitals may not be able to do this, depending on their size or maybe they are in BFE, but I thought now they were required to have people on staff at all times to do stat csections.
My friend who had premie twins said that from the moment she entered the emergency room to the time they were born was less than 20 minutes. She also had GA, classical incision.
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Old 03-13-2004, 12:40 PM
 
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30 from decision to incision is what most hospitals assume for emergency c...mine was a few minutes more I think...I was bleeding to death in a slow methodical fashion. GA as well.

I have met enough women with babes that died (particularly a twin) with IUGR and TTTS while having constant monitoring that I would not assume the c would have fixed it, even done the first day. And pathology reports for fetal demise are generally worthless. A conviction based on a pathologist's best guess? (these are the same people that call the vast majority of stillbirths "cord accidents" because they really don't know.) In this sort of case the medical examiner will not be able to say with any certainty if immediate delivery would have saved the baby or not.
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Old 03-13-2004, 12:49 PM
 
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I had a good nights sleep, even with a squirmy babe attached and a very large toddler on my side.

I kept thinking over and over about this woman and her sitting in jail right now. I am fortunate I didn't have and nightmares, it has really disturbed me to the bone.

I would like to point out a really moving thing I read this morning.

Posted by lolalleloo is the crux of this case:

"Not the hospital, not the coroner, not even the prosecutors are claiming that drug/alcohol/tobacco use played any part in the death of her child. Her lifestyle, her troubled past, her illnesses, and even uncorroborated reports of her personal vanity -- are all being used for the purpose of demonizing her in the eyes of the public, and whaddya know: it's working. Make no mistake, people. This woman mourning her dead baby sits in jail tonight for the sole crime of defying doctors' orders, and there but for the grace of God go any one of us. I'm not only shocked and horrified to read some of the comments I've read in this thread, I'm heartbroken. That so many here would unashamedly indulge in this 'Serves her right' mentality just floors me."

This is what kept me up last night, this thought. It scares me to the bone.

During my last pregnancy, I had refused many different things my midwife wanted me to do during my pregnancy. We argued and fought over some very important test and proceedures. I ended up giving in to a good portion of them because of scare tatics used by her and the doctors.

It makes me think, because I do have a history of drug abuse, mental illness, and PPD. I wonder how far removed I am from this woman and her situation. How far could we streatch what she did and what I was doing. Not very far.

I tell you, it scares me. I know the media could put a spin on MY life and suddenly here I could be charged with murder. To think of it.

Stand up for this woman without regard to her drug abuse, her mental state, and her lifestyle. Stand up for her because she has no voice, and pretty soon none of you will too.

Stand up for her because it is right and necessary. Give her compassion in your heart.

But for the grace of God go I.
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Old 03-13-2004, 12:53 PM
 
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Originally posted by simonee
(and Zaq, there's a pretty long line for Lauren. You get in right in the back, okay honey? :LOL)
Simonee, your right. Back of the line I go. But, hurry up and keep it a movin, it's my turn next!:LOL
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Old 03-13-2004, 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by OnTheFence
Turns out she was using coke. Has mental illness. The works. I am getting bashed on the Talk Among Yourself board and have got some interesting and threatening IMs. I should have not delurked over there. I get sucked in everytime!
On the Fence, I have read alot here but see no one bashing you. Your arguments? Sure. But not you. Don't confuse the two. You had a c-sec, that isn't what we are discussing here and you seem very defensive, imo.
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Old 03-13-2004, 01:25 PM
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I think she means that she got threatened via PM.
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Old 03-13-2004, 01:45 PM
 
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playdoh-Why are you following OTF around?

Clarity-I agree with you, and with XM and others that have said there was no guarantee the baby could have been saved had there been a cesarean.

I just want to say only the higher power knows whether she needs to make restitution.
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Old 03-13-2004, 02:02 PM
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Not following anyone around, Ladylee. Not sure what you're implying.

I believe no one has the right to cut us open without our consent, no matter what the circumstances. I'm with dado. All the way.
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Old 03-13-2004, 02:03 PM
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I think she means that she got threatened via PM.
Then my bad. I thought she meant that she was 'bashed on TAO'.

Sorry for my confusion!

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Old 03-13-2004, 02:31 PM
 
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I live in Utah and last night on the local news they had interviews with several couples who were contacted by Melissa. She was willing to sell her living baby for money to the highest bidder.
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Old 03-13-2004, 02:36 PM
 
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I think we've already determined that she wouldn't win a mother of the year award...

but should she be in jail for disagreeing with a doctor's recommendation?

That is the real problem here.

Regardless of her personal character (or how the media portrays it...)

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Old 03-13-2004, 03:10 PM
 
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I read that for a hospital to perform a cesarean safely it takes 30 to 60 minutes, and that is if no one is waiting ahead of you. (There have been stories from women whose babies were born vaginally while they were waiting for their "emergency" c/s!)

In Birth as an American Rite of Passage there is a doctor who is "very respected" because he can do one in 12 minutes. His complication rate is horrendous. Other women in Open Season say that they also had those super quick sections, and they could feel the cutting. They were told "the baby would die" if they took the time to do everything they usually do.

I don't think I could go through surgery without anesthesia and all safety procedures, even if it meant death. And if that makes me a murderer, well, good thing this is my last baby!
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Old 03-13-2004, 03:18 PM
 
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Greaseball you say that as though you would have a choice. You would have enough drugs to immobilize you... take your legs and such... plus they strap you down. You not being numb is strictly your problem. Won't slow them down a bit. This you know, my friend.
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Old 03-13-2004, 03:21 PM
 
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Originally posted by Unreal
I think we've already determined that she wouldn't win a mother of the year award...

but should she be in jail for disagreeing with a doctor's recommendation?

That is the real problem here.

Regardless of her personal character (or how the media portrays it...)
I feel she did more than disagree with one doctors. There is a difference. I left the hospital AMA with my son. Of course after being told my baby would die, I was a horrible mother, etc. I had to sign a document taking responsibility and not holding the dr. responsible. I left after speaking to my attny. The next day I called another dr in town, explained what was going on and said I needed to see someone that morning. My husband and I took my son to this doctor, explained what was going on, what I did, and then he examined my son. He then spoke with another dr. in the practice came back and told me that he thought I had done the right thing and he had a nother course of action for us to take. I took his advice, went to the follow-up appt. mainly to cover my own ass.
This woman however went to the hospital to seek medical advice due to problems she was having. She disreguarded this advice. Ok, fine. But then she went on to go to two additional places that told her the same thing. This is where I think she was negligent in her actions and that this negligence resulted in the death of this child. She had two prior csections, and that also factors into me believing that she was negligent. She was hiding something, drug abuse is what I believe.

If this was remotely similar to the woman who had the big baby and refused a csection I would be on the front row cheering that she should be able to legally refuse this. The woman with the big baby also sought medical care elsewhere, that was a different course of action. This woman did not do that.
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Old 03-13-2004, 03:27 PM
 
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Originally posted by Greaseball
I read that for a hospital to perform a cesarean safely it takes 30 to 60 minutes, and that is if no one is waiting ahead of you. (There have been stories from women whose babies were born vaginally while they were waiting for their "emergency" c/s!)

In Birth as an American Rite of Passage there is a doctor who is "very respected" because he can do one in 12 minutes. His complication rate is horrendous. Other women in Open Season say that they also had those super quick sections, and they could feel the cutting. They were told "the baby would die" if they took the time to do everything they usually do.

I don't think I could go through surgery without anesthesia and all safety procedures, even if it meant death. And if that makes me a murderer, well, good thing this is my last baby!
Safely? I would love to read where you get this 30-60 minute time frame.
Also the two books you mention are quite dated. As is the American Way of Birth, that I think talks about this issue as well.

I bet you could go through the surgery if your child was on the line. You arent really focusing on yourself at the time. You really dont care how many safety proceedures are in place. You want your baby to live.
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Old 03-13-2004, 03:33 PM
 
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Originally posted by OnTheFence
The woman with the big baby also sought medical care elsewhere, that was a different course of action. This woman did not do that.
Well... she went home for several days and checked into a different hospital when she was in active labor. Sought no medical attention in the interem. M Rolands babies were born in the hospital via C-section... so clearly she did that as well.
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Old 03-13-2004, 03:36 PM
 
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I guess I'm just frightened that 'they' (the ever ambiguous they) aren't going to differentiate between the two cases.

I was 19 when I was pregnant with my first son--and looked even younger. I can't tell you how many people asked if I planned to go back to high school to get my diploma--without even bothering to find out that I had already been in college for a year and was still taking classes!
People make assumptions--especially about pregnant women--I'm sure we've all experienced this through the years.

I do not agree with the choices Mellisa made. I agree that she should have had more support. I over the fact that there are literally thousands of other women in this country in the same position as her. I over the idea of selling a baby to the highest bidder. I am and that we want to spend $$ on keeping her in jail rather than putting that money towards helping even just a handful of other women and babies from meeting the same fate.

And I am scared that someday someone will look at me--not vaxing, homeschooling, giving my kids herbs rather than sudafed and tylenol....and they will think that they should step in and protect my kids because ____________ (fill in the blank--just about anything goes, these days)
I am scared that with my next babe, I'll want to do a homebirth and a dr may say that is too dangerous and I'll end up giving birth in restraints in a hospital (or worse, jail).

There are so many things in this that upset me--it is hard to separate them...

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Old 03-13-2004, 03:42 PM
 
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Murder is over the top.. The unfortunate part is that even here.. There are women willing to throw her as a log on the fire in this one..


I too felt my c/s with my ds1.. I felt them sewing me up.. It felt like they were pushing on a very deep bruise or open wound.. Which is exactly what they were doing, and this was NOT an emergency.. This was for breech presentation... Every woman has the RIGHT TO REFUSE medical care.. That hospital has the RESPONSIBLILITY to get a COURT ORDER for care if they believe the patient is incompetent.. THAT is how the system works.. We dont' read anywhere.. (or i haven't maybe i missed it.. ) that any of these hospitals did that..

and FTR..

I DON'T CARE HOW MANY C/S YOU HAVE HAD, YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE THE NEXT ONE!!!

I don't think anyone here is defending this woman as a good mother, BUT she has the same rights that you or I do... She has the right to refuse medical interventions or advice.. If the hospitals and dr's where sooo concerned, they should have obtained that court order..

I do NOT agree with the way this woman lives her life, but i WILL fight for the injustice, and persecution that is being brought against her..

They are NOT charging her with drug use.. They are charging her with murder.. Premediatied murder.. This is a travesty of justice.. They ARE releasing information about her lifestyle to villify her, and get them a guilty verdict in the publics eye before they even have to do anything else.. How hard will it be to find a juror that hasn't heard about this... Or hasn't formed an opinion of this "horrible, irresponsible, evil, baby-killing" woman..:

Make no mistake this IS about your ability to refuse your dr, or their hospital.. The outcome of this case WILL effect each and every woman in the US...

Warmly..

Dyan

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Old 03-13-2004, 03:46 PM
 
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ACOG reports that a stat csection can be done in less than 10 minutes with GA and a classical or T cut incision. This was in a 200) report. They classify also "emergency" csections in two forms: emergency and stat emergency. Emergency csections are done in case their are problems present but not immediately life threatening and a spinal can be done and non-classical incision is done, time frame is 20-32 minutes. Stat csections is when the mother, baby or both are in a near death state -- prolapse cord is indicated for stat csection, uterine rupture, placental abruption, and excessive bleeding.
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Old 03-13-2004, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally posted by OnTheFence
ACOG reports that a stat csection can be done in less than 10 minutes with GA and a classical or T cut incision. This was in a 200) report. They classify also "emergency" csections in two forms: emergency and stat emergency. Emergency csections are done in case their are problems present but not immediately life threatening and a spinal can be done and non-classical incision is done, time frame is 20-32 minutes. Stat csections is when the mother, baby or both are in a near death state -- prolapse cord is indicated for stat csection, uterine rupture, placental abruption, and excessive bleeding.
I don't know how far I would trust the ACOG.. These are the same dr's pushing to make VBAC's not a viable option for women who have had a c/s, and have recently said the c/s for no medical reason isn't unethical..

I trust them as a whole about as far as i could throw them..

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Old 03-13-2004, 04:00 PM
 
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I think I can trust ACOG about how long a section takes. They do enough of them to know.
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Old 03-13-2004, 04:11 PM
 
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i was thinking more along the lines of why they thought the c/s were neccesary, or even emergent... Guess i should have been more clear on that.. And you are right Kama, they SHOULD know how long it takes.. They do appear c/s happy..

The thing is.. I'm not even anti-c/s.. I think they DO save lives.. I don't think they should be the be all end all in birthing, that many times they are portrayed to be.. If i had the OB who did my c/s for my regular OB.. I would NEVER have had a vbac.. She is the most c/s happy OB in Iowa city.. I am sooo thankful I have a very woman oriented OB.. She is great... Almost mid-wife-ish.. (well it's a word now!!!)

anyway.. OT sorry..

Warm Squishy Feelings..

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Old 03-13-2004, 04:27 PM
 
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ACOG reports that a stat csection can be done in less than 10 minutes with GA and a classical or T cut incision.
Yes, we all know how unbiased they are.:

But if I had to have a section I'd probably want GA anyway. The thought of lying there awake as I'm being cut open just scares me. See, I'm terrified of surgery; you don't have to be on drugs or mentally ill to be afraid!

Although, with GA, what about the anesthesiologist? What if he is not in the hospital at the time? (Smaller hospitals don't have them waiting around.) So he would have to show up first. And doesn't GA require all sorts of pre-op drugs and special equipment?

I only had GA once, when my wisdom teeth were removed, and it took them an hour to set up all the little thingies. And it didn't even take; I woke up in the middle of the surgery screaming about Hell or something despite the 3 different drugs they had given me. They said if they had given me any more I'd have to be in an OR with a breathing tube.

I think if I were being operated on without anesthesia and I could still move, my self-preservation instinct would take over my mothering instinct. The dentists were able to use physical force to get me to go through the rest of the operation without anesthesia, but having a tooth cut out is nothing like major surgery. I hope I never have to know what that is like.

I don't know why it's thought we are anti-c/s...even I know people whose lives have been saved by them! And I mean for real, not just because they were too big or the mother had been in labor too long.
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Old 03-13-2004, 04:30 PM
 
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Originally posted by Pynki
I don't know how far I would trust the ACOG.. These are the same dr's pushing to make VBAC's not a viable option for women who have had a c/s, and have recently said the c/s for no medical reason isn't unethical..

I trust them as a whole about as far as i could throw them..
Actually what I read concurs with other things I have read as well. My planned csection took 30 minutes from the time I got in the OR till the time they rolled me out. My epidural was put in 10 min prior. With my emergency csection, while a longer surgery, I was cut fairly quickly after it was determined the baby needed to come out now. Maybe it depends on the doctor doing the cutting.
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Old 03-13-2004, 04:37 PM
 
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Originally posted by Greaseball
Yes, we all know how unbiased they are.:

But if I had to have a section I'd probably want GA anyway. The thought of lying there awake as I'm being cut open just scares me. See, I'm terrified of surgery; you don't have to be on drugs or mentally ill to be afraid!

Although, with GA, what about the anesthesiologist? What if he is not in the hospital at the time? (Smaller hospitals don't have them waiting around.) So he would have to show up first. And doesn't GA require all sorts of pre-op drugs and special equipment?

I only had GA once, when my wisdom teeth were removed, and it took them an hour to set up all the little thingies. And it didn't even take; I woke up in the middle of the surgery screaming about Hell or something despite the 3 different drugs they had given me. They said if they had given me any more I'd have to be in an OR with a breathing tube.

I think if I were being operated on without anesthesia and I could still move, my self-preservation instinct would take over my mothering instinct. The dentists were able to use physical force to get me to go through the rest of the operation without anesthesia, but having a tooth cut out is nothing like major surgery. I hope I never have to know what that is like.

I don't know why it's thought we are anti-c/s...even I know people whose lives have been saved by them! And I mean for real, not just because they were too big or the mother had been in labor too long.
Greaseball, I am afraid of surgery too! TERRIFIED. Show me an IV and I want to pass out. But I would not do GA, even though I did consider it for repeat, because it is more dangerous to mother and baby than a spinal or epidural. I don't know what they give as far as pre-op drugs to GA patients. I didn't have any preop drugs with my last but I had an epidural. I know that you did get the tube, oxygen, all that with GA. When my enighbor gets home I will ask her to look on her op report to see what they gave her.

I was still able to move during my first csection. In fact two nurses held my legs down (my arms were strapped down). You do have an over powering urge to leap off the table. Its pretty horrfic and I wouldnt want anyone to go through that.
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Old 03-13-2004, 05:21 PM
 
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nak
i just heard about this this morning..
as an obgyn i want to comment
1.to be charged with murder is wrong. a person has the right to refuse a csection even if the baby is dying right there on the monitor. even if it makes the doctor ill to see the baby die. it's happened. it is assault and battery to perform surgery without consent.
2. any pt can leave against medical advice at any time. i've had people leave ama at 6 cm, go smoke, and show up again!
3. you can't reason with someone who is floridly psychotic. you just can't. nor can you expect them to think rationally such as"if i leave ama my twins could die." they are literally in a different world.
4.if you feel the mom isn't competent to make the decision to refuse a csection you call the hospital ethics board and try for a psych eval and court order. why didn't anyone do this?
5.on the flip side i have had pts demand csections because of various reasons, even after i tell them there is no indication and tell them the increased risks of major surgery. do they have the right to request as well as refuse csection. i believe that is what generated the acog ethics statement on elective csections.

i have had a psychotic pt with twins refuse all exams and showed up at 22 wks completely dilated.
i have had a woman from a country where the male head of family makes all the decisions refuse csection until he could be reached by phone with the knowledge her baby was dying... it died before we could reach him.
oh the things i have seen.
bottom line is this woman should not be pg in the first place, but again you can't make her use contraception or get sterilized or take psych meds etc- it all is the same issue, once you start where do you stop? if a pg woman doesn't wear her seatbelt after i tell her to, gets in a wreck and ejectedf and baby dies, does she get charged?
oh and i have had several crack users who abrupted and had stillbirths - believe it or not they are very sad usually; the drug just had a hold on them... they didn't set out to kill their babies- they just couldn't stop using.
sorry for typos-typing one handed- i have a lot more thoughts but getting sick of typing.
edited for typos-twice!
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Old 03-13-2004, 05:38 PM
 
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the time it takes from deciding to do a c until they start the incision, is different from the length of time it takes to do the operation itself (from incison to suturing...) Two different time frames...it just looks like some of us are talking about two different things.
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Old 03-13-2004, 06:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clarity
the time it takes from deciding to do a c until they start the incision, is different from the length of time it takes to do the operation itself (from incison to suturing...) Two different time frames...it just looks like some of us are talking about two different things.
I was talking about in my ACOG post about the actual cut being done and getting the baby out.

My first csection was an hour and 15min long. My second was 30min from start to finish.
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Old 03-13-2004, 06:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zaq001
Stand up for this woman without regard to her drug abuse, her mental state, and her lifestyle. Stand up for her because she has no voice, and pretty soon none of you will too.

Stand up for her because it is right and necessary. Give her compassion in your heart.

But for the grace of God go I.
Zaq, I am so moved by your post. I have been following this thread as well, but feel really too emotional to post. I cannot remain calm on this one. It hits home; my little sister's baby died of SIDS after one month, and she was a drug user, smoker, all the other things that some would flay her for. She is not an evil person. But that story is another time and place.... one I can't tell because I am still too broken over it-- for all involved.

Compassion is the key here. Today she-- MR-- is a childless mother, sitting alone in a jail cell, with the weight of her decisions and the ghost of a dead baby hanging over her. And now she is becoming a pawn in what will most certainly be a political spectacle. There is much suffering here mammas, even despite what you read in the paper. She is still human.
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Old 03-13-2004, 06:27 PM
 
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Yes, I wonder what we all would think if drug use were not a factor.
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