Excellent health of a mother doesn't guarantee/ increase her chances to have a healthy baby? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-27-2010, 12:28 PM
 
wombatclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: running the red queen's race
Posts: 14,048
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
~~~~~~moderator moment~~~~~~~~

I'm so sorry for the losses, pain, and regrets that have formed the basis for this thread. I think the idea of a "guarantee" is, indeed, a myth that needs to be explored and expanded on.

When writing your posts, please keep in mind that every person here has a different story... some mamas know first hand the personal pain (emotional, physical, spiritual) that can be caused by the myth of an implied "guarantee". Others have never even thought about it, have never had the myth fail them.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND that the mdc user agreement asks members to disgree gently, to discuss the ideas and not the person sharing those ideas, and to choose our language carefully so as to share information/understanding instead of offending/alienating members who have different stories to tell.

I realize it can be hard when the topic is so potentially painful, and I'd like to thank everyone for taking the extra time to share their experiences and take in others' experiences as respectfully as you all have!

Please let me (or any moderator) know if you have questions or concerns.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Be pretty! Be practical! Be Pagan! Visit Pagan Hearth & Home!
 mama to lady.gif(4/05), hearts.gif(6/07vbac), diaper.gif(8/09vbac), and babygirl.gif (9/11vbac)

wombatclay is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-27-2010, 12:35 PM
 
GuildJenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,517
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by laohaire View Post
I think this is totally about the countercultural aspect. If everyone had the same assumptions we did, then there would be no need to exaggerate ("if you are informed and proactive you can avoid all the complications") to counteract the exaggerated assumptions of the mainstream ("if you have a homebirth without a doctor, you and your baby will die").

I think it behooves us all, in every way, to try to look for the truth and express our findings in a fair and accurate manner. Implying that the excellent health of a mother guarantees a healthy baby puts mothers and babies at risk, and undermines the message we're trying to put out.
Well as personal experience, I also think it's about people in general (often mothers) being unwilling to accept that if X bad outcome can just happen to anyone then it could happen to them. There is a certain kind of thinking that is self-protective like "if I don't do that, I'll be ok."

After my daughter died I was pretty surprised at the number of people -- many of them about my age and in their main childbearing/rearing stage -- who just had to find a reason, whether it was grounded in reality or not. One person speculated that the cord got around my daughter's neck because I took aquafit classes and she was really glad she hadn't.

We're just in an era where people -- read, mothers -- are supposed to be able to control our kids' environments to the point where risks become zero. But that is just not the case.

I also think there is a lot of misunderstanding outside of scientific and medical communities (and sometimes within them) about how research and risk factors work.

Just because one study or even 5 show that something may be a factor in an outcome doesn't mean it's the defining cause and that avoiding that will avoid the bad outcome. There is a serious difference between lowering risk factors and achieving outcomes. *

The cord accident discussion is a perfect example. Cord accidents are badly understood and understudied. There are at least 30 different "standard" types of cord accidents so lumping them together is kind of sketchy if you're trying to find causes.

For some of those there have been studies that looked at a few maternal factors. However, because cord accidents are not well reported, nor well studied, even those few areas where there have been some differences in something to do with the mother are pretty much speculation - the kind of thing where it's "this is interesting but more research is needed." And even in those cases those factors haven't been very significant. It's nothing like, for example, the link between HPV and cervical cancer which has not only had better information but where the percentages are startlingly high.

I kind of feel like we live in an age where everyone is chasing the latest study to do everything "Right" whereas in the past people may have spent their time in prayer or sacrificing goats.

There definitely are outcomes that are impacted by maternal health and I'm just as into no drinking or smoking or toxins and eat healthy and exercise and don't eat raw fish and deli meats and clean the cat box as everyone else.

But the OP specifically said "Mainly complications during the birth which would require medical intervention." and there I really don't think the answer can possibly be yes, you can control meconium and baby's heart rate and baby's delivery position and whether the cord is around baby's neck in a dangerous way by maternal health.

* remember there's a strong correlation between birth rates and storks, in certain areas. http://books.google.ca/books?id=QySy...page&q&f=false

~ Mum to Emily, March 12-16 2004, Noah, born Aug 2005, Liam, born January 2011, and wife to Carl since 1994. ~
GuildJenn is offline  
Old 06-27-2010, 12:50 PM
 
bri276's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,848
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm perfectly "healthy" but I happen to have a chromosomal disorder. It doesn't affect me at all, but when I reproduce, it can affect the chromosomes of the baby and cause them to have birth defects, developmental delays, etc (like my DD has) or a miscarriage because their defects are incompatible with life (several of those, too). This is something that was determined at the moment of my own conception by a healthy mother and what I eat, drink, exercise doesn't matter. In fact, the baby I'm carrying now is the first "healthy" baby -at least concerning her chromosomes- and she was conceived while I was drinking plenty of alcohol, eating plenty of sugar (holiday season, hello!) and even started smoking cigarettes for the first time in nearly a decade!

DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
bri276 is offline  
Old 06-27-2010, 12:59 PM
 
laohaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You're right. I think what you're describing and what I tried to describe are probably two sides of the same coin. My side is about convincing others - your side is about convincing oneself. But your side is the more profound one and I didn't really consider it when I wrote my post.

We have a belief. Something is said or even happens that challenges this belief. This causes us pain and confusion and worry. So we reframe the event rather than challenging the belief.

From what I said, being countercultural makes this worse. "Everyone" believes that giving birth in a hospital is the only safe and rational choice (and that it's entirely safe and entirely rational). Defensively, we explain away any homebirth complications to protect our beliefs and choices. More, we attack hospital birth complications for the same reason.

And as this movement increases, mainstream people do the same - defend hospital complications and attack homebirth complications.

Admitting that your position is not unassailable is difficult enough when you're just talking academically or theorectically. I can't imagine how it would be when it's personal.

Homeschooling mama to 6 year old DD.

laohaire is offline  
Old 06-27-2010, 07:24 PM
 
MyFillingQuiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Northern Idaho
Posts: 833
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
I agree with the backlash theory, as well...

I know, for a fact, that if I were to lose this baby or any future children, as a result of my choices to homebirth, it would be blamed on me by most people we know, for making "risky" decisions. They likely laugh at all our choices now-to eat healthfully, not to vaccinate, to supplement and avoid doctors, etc., but if a loss occurred, those would be the very "healthful" choices that led me to the nut job ideas that resulted in death for a baby.

Rather, what isn't understood, is that there is an implicit desire for health and good outcomes by most mama's-it's often just based on different theories of what health is, due to life experiences and personal ideas. I haven't come across a single mama on MDC who isn't striving for good health. It's implied-particularly by those who are mindful, and taking responsibility for their bodies and birth choices.

I also haven't come across a single mama on MDC who, if they lose a child, has done so by neglecting some facet of their health. Full term babies of healthy mama's die sometimes and that's a horrible realization I've recently faced through reading the nightmares of others here. The idea that these tragedies only happen to poor, uneducated, high risk groups is a fallacy.

It's as if we are expecting those with life-long uncontrolled diabetes, or being in other high risk categories to lose their babies..and somehow that's just OK..but a mom who lives on water and high protein, and exercise and NFL-she's just invincible? I guess it comes down to Who we believe is in ultimate control.

I think as humans, we just don't like to admit we can't always have all the answers, and sometimes no one is to blame. Of course, when there is someone to blame, that is a particularly cruel addition to the situation.

Nevertheless, any of the mama's I've read who've had birth loss, and myself and others who've experience pregnancy loss, ALL were healthy and doing the right thing for their babies.

Blessed Christian Wife and Homeschooling Mother to 8: 17 (our 1st homeschool graduate!), 12, 11, 9, 5, 4, 2 and with blessing #9 and #10 due to arrive April 2015



MyFillingQuiver is offline  
Old 06-27-2010, 07:50 PM
 
lalemma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 608
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My husband calls this the "Shoulda had a doula" view of the universe.

I had a super-healthy pregnancy and consider myself a sturdy, healthy person. I am almost never sick. I am just - I don't know, I am very healthy. I was swimming laps the night before I had my baby - in the morning I woke up and went into eclamptic convulsions. There was no warning for this. Nothing I did caused it.

It's very hard to accept that (even for me!) because there's something really comforting about the idea that the universe is non-random. If bad things only happen to bad people, then if I just avoid doing bad things, nothing bad will ever happen to me. And if that mom's baby died at birth - well, because the universe is non-random, that obviously means that she did something to deserve that terrible outcome. How sad for her, but what a relief to know that that can't possibly happen to me as long as I color inside the lines.

I agree with PP that natural-living people can go completely overboard in their attempts to normalize birth or women's bodies or breastfeeding or whatever:

"Every single woman can breastfeed!"

"Every C-section is unnecessary and you could have avoided it if you had a doula."

"You only had pre-eclampsia because you didn't follow the Brewer Diet."

But I think this worldview is nigh-on universal to humans. Not just crunchy moms, not even just moms.

My husband is a soldier; before we were married he went to war. Once he told me a story about how soldiers will be mean about their fellow soldiers - guys from their unit - getting killed.

"He wouldn't have gotten shot in the face if he was a better soldier. I did not get shot in the face, ergo I am a better soldier than he is. Because I am a good soldier, nothing bad will ever happen to me. I will make it through this and go home."

It's very hard to accept the fact that life isn't fair, I think. Some people get through it with hard introspection or with faith in God. Other people just can't get through it, and cling to this idea that nothing bad will ever happen if they just follow the rules. For myself, I wish I had come by this life-isn't-risk-free insight in an easier way, but hey, an insight is an insight!

Science-loving mama to one little guy (11/09).
lalemma is offline  
Old 06-29-2010, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
olstep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I did not mean to touch the painful subjects like stillbirth or miscarriage.
The only intention I had was to hear some encouragement that one can kind of prepare herself to have a positive outcome.
I am tempted to go UCed but find it difficult to block my brain that tells me that it may be unsafe.
I do not argue that things happen no matter how hard we try (in childbirth or life in general) but fatalism is not my philosophy. I do believe that we have responsibility and certain control for what happens in our lives.
olstep is offline  
Old 06-29-2010, 01:19 AM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 42,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by olstep View Post
How true is this statement? Obviously, the better a mom takes care of herself the better start her babies will have. Is it a rule? How common are the exceptions?
Even though the birth is considered unpredictable, is it possible to predict the outcome for the baby with more or less small error? Or are there too many factors that need to be taken into consideration to make any grounded judgement?
I do think the health of the mother has an impact on the health of her child.

I also think that even healthy moms have complications and losses.

Being healthy isn't a garauntee but it does help. Obviously someone that is drinking, using drugs, or smoking is more likely to see issues in her baby than someone who does not.

My first pregnancy was extremely easy and I was in good shape. I had no complications until labor. My dd's cord was too short and in a true knot. Shortly after my daughter was born my SIL had a stillbirth due to an umbilical cord issue. Two umbilical cord issues in young healthy women in the same family (we are not related, our husbands are brothers) within weeks. It was a lightening strike we couldn't possibly have avoided.

Umbilical cord accidents lead to more losses than SIDS, but like SIDS there is little certainty of cause or prevention.

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
Old 06-29-2010, 11:02 AM
 
GuildJenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,517
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by olstep View Post
I did not mean to touch the painful subjects like stillbirth or miscarriage.
The only intention I had was to hear some encouragement that one can kind of prepare herself to have a positive outcome.
I am tempted to go UCed but find it difficult to block my brain that tells me that it may be unsafe.
I do not argue that things happen no matter how hard we try (in childbirth or life in general) but fatalism is not my philosophy. I do believe that we have responsibility and certain control for what happens in our lives.
Well with all due respect -- and if you want to UC go for it -- if all you want to hear is "if you are healthy and responsible you will be fine!" then don't ask a group of real women with real experiences about it, because statistically you are likely to find that is not the case.

And frankly, it wouldn't serve you well to ONLY hear that if you're healthy everything will be fine. I have been there and it wasn't true. Part of having an empowered birth experience is understanding what can go wrong as well as what can go right, and to be prepared to make decisions on that basis.

The advice that I would give any woman no matter which choices she is making in how and where she will labour is to be aware that there are risks and there are no guarantees. What is important is that you are able to live with the risks you choose to take.

~ Mum to Emily, March 12-16 2004, Noah, born Aug 2005, Liam, born January 2011, and wife to Carl since 1994. ~
GuildJenn is offline  
Old 06-29-2010, 12:36 PM
 
CI Mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 792
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
The advice that I would give any woman no matter which choices she is making in how and where she will labour is to be aware that there are risks and there are no guarantees. What is important is that you are able to live with the risks you choose to take.
Great advice.

All I would add is...no matter how or where you give birth and what the outcome is, you won't be alone.

One of the benefits of sharing our real experiences...all of them...with each other is that we start to realize the huge variety of experiences that women have during labor & delivery. The sharing leads us to others who can celebrate with us and help us find our way through grief, whatever we need.

That's why I think we have a responsibility to share our stories and to listen to each other. There are no guarantees, but at the very least we can reach out to each other and help each other through the tough parts.

Living in Wisconsin with my partner of 20+ years and our DDenergy.gif(Born 10/09/08 ribboncesarean.gif). Why CI Mama? Because I love contact improvisation!

CI Mama is offline  
Old 06-29-2010, 08:28 PM
 
CI Mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 792
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I thought your original questions were good ones, basically asking about how we should think about risk when it comes to child birth. Your original questions focused on risk, and so that is where the conversation has gone.

Now you are asking (I think) about things that a mother can do to have a better birth experience/outcome. I see that as a different question.

But, to tie both conversations together, I would say that preparing for birth has both a physical & an emotional component. A big part of the emotional preparation is to figure out how we want to think about and deal with the risks, unknowns, and lack of guarantees that birth presents.

One option, of course, is to deny that they exist and/or to try to control everything in hopes that nothing bad will happen. I agree with PPs that this approach does not ultimately serve women or children well. Those who are sharing their perspective have earned it at great cost and I believe are sharing their POV from a sincere wish to spare someone else the pain caused by the "deny/control" approach.

I am sorry that you see that perspective as "negative".

Another way to approach risk, unknowns, and lack of guarantees is to face them, to learn about them, and to learn from those who have survived the harshest realities that they present. I suppose that if all one does for birth preparation is to focus on the worst case scenarios, that's not helpful. But I would say that a well-rounded preparation would consider both the best possible outcomes and the worst ones...and a lot in between...and would include some thought about how to manage a variety of situations that might arise, including some un-ideal ones.

I'd also add that when I was preparing for birth, I was overwhelmed by the number of things to think about, and there didn't seem to be enough time to process and prepare for everything. For me there was a definite leap of faith...the realization that no matter how much I prepared or what I tried to anticipate, ready or not the moment would come and birth would happen. Surrender has been a big part of my journey, before, during, and after the fact.

Living in Wisconsin with my partner of 20+ years and our DDenergy.gif(Born 10/09/08 ribboncesarean.gif). Why CI Mama? Because I love contact improvisation!

CI Mama is offline  
Old 06-30-2010, 09:30 AM
 
MsBlack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SE MO
Posts: 3,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since it's about UC at base, I'll return to my earliest statement: for mom to be pro-active in achieving/maintaining excellent health--and for her to have full emotional support from her partner in this--is the closest thing to a guarantee that we get, when it comes to birth. Yes, your chances of a healthy baby and healthy birth/pp time are greatly enhanced by taking excellent care of yourself--with confidence in yourself and the process, working through any fears as you go, becoming more informed about 'good signs and bad signs' of birth/baby--and willing to get help if it turns out you or baby do need it.

And Olstep--not to pretend I know you all that well (and certainly nothing about your partner/home situation), but as a UC mom, grandmom and general UC supporter/observer for lo these many years, from what I've 'seen' of you here on MDC...I'd say you are an excellent candidate for UC, attitude-wise, general-mindset-wise, self-confidence-wise.

Not that you asked for my assessment!
And not that anyone gets any guarantees in this life.
MsBlack is offline  
Old 06-30-2010, 10:19 AM
 
bandgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was mostly healthy and my child had significant brain damage from oxygen deprivation sometime in the womb or during birth (we don't know when). The only issue I had was constant sickness (as I did with my first...actually worse with him and he's healthy). It did prevent me from eating the healthiest, but I gained an acceptable amount of weight. Otherwise no pregnancy complications.

Cord accidents can happen to ANYONE. And you aren't necessarily able to intervene in time even if you check yourself with a doppler every 10 minutes of your pregnancy.
bandgeek is offline  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:46 PM
 
wombatclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: running the red queen's race
Posts: 14,048
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
~~~~~~~~~Moderator Moment~~~~~~~~

Heyla!

Several posts have been removed to bring this thread back on topic and within the MDC User Agreement Guidelines. Please review the User Agreement and then your post prior to hitting the "submit" button so that we can keep the information and discussion provided by this thread on the boards!

If you have ANY questions or concerns about the thread, or about individual posts on the thread, please contact a moderator via the "report" button.

Thank you! And a big "Thank You" for taking the time and effort to share your experiences in a gentle, responsible, and respectful manner. It's members like you that help us keep MDC both informative and welcoming.

~~~~~~~~~~~~now back to the thread~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Be pretty! Be practical! Be Pagan! Visit Pagan Hearth & Home!
 mama to lady.gif(4/05), hearts.gif(6/07vbac), diaper.gif(8/09vbac), and babygirl.gif (9/11vbac)

wombatclay is offline  
Old 07-04-2010, 02:48 AM
 
JTA Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by olstep View Post
I did not mean to touch the painful subjects like stillbirth or miscarriage.
The only intention I had was to hear some encouragement that one can kind of prepare herself to have a positive outcome.
I am tempted to go UCed but find it difficult to block my brain that tells me that it may be unsafe.
I do not argue that things happen no matter how hard we try (in childbirth or life in general) but fatalism is not my philosophy. I do believe that we have responsibility and certain control for what happens in our lives.
It is not fatalism to see that in the aspect of pregnancy/birth, we really have very little control on outcome. You can eat supremely healthy, be healthy, active, etc, and still have a bad outcome. Can you increase your chances of a healthy birth/baby/etc? Sure. But we're talking about statistics, and well, with statistics, it doesn't matter that something is only a 1% chance if you happen to BE that 1%, kwim?

The major thing my own loss taught me, is to just stay in the moment. I cannot be guaranteed that tomorrow something will happen. But right now, my baby is kicking, therefore alive, so I am happy.

Am I preparing for his/her eventual arrival? Yes, of course.

Do I expect him/her to come home with me?

That question is harder to answer. Yes, a part of me fully expects it. However, another part, the part that is all too aware of loss, tells me to also not take it as a given. That if I am so lucky, and I do mean lucky, to bring home a living, healthy baby, I should count my blessings. I do not and can never, take a good outcome as a 'done deal'.

Like I said, I have been in that 1% chance bracket before. I do realize though, that the majority of women will end up with healthy babies--how else has the human race survived and expanded to today, kwim? And I repeat that to myself.

As for you not feeling completely comfy UCing, I don't think falling into the opposite 'fatalistic' belief of 'I am healthy, therefore everything will be fine' is the answer. There are risks to birthing in a hospital as well, such as infections.

What you have to do is find your acceptable risk level. If something were to happen in the hospital--how would you feel? If something were to happen in your UC--how would you feel? What do you think you can live with? Then go from there.

Ami

Wife to dh, Mommy to my heavenly angel, J (06), and my earthly angels, S (07) and E (10)

JTA Mom is offline  
Old 07-04-2010, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
olstep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTA Mom View Post
It is not fatalism to see that in the aspect of pregnancy/birth, we really have very little control on outcome. You can eat supremely healthy, be healthy, active, etc, and still have a bad outcome. Can you increase your chances of a healthy birth/baby/etc? Sure. But we're talking about statistics, and well, with statistics, it doesn't matter that something is only a 1% chance if you happen to BE that 1%, kwim?


It does matter to me whether it 1% or 10%. 1% wont' shake my belief - maybe groundless for some people - that everything is going to be fine. It is not that I do not want to see or be aware of negative outcome possibility. But for my sanity I have to put it (the negative) far back on my mind when
1)I see that chances it can happen are very low.
2) there is not much I can do to affect it.
I think our brain has very powerful impact on our live. As one of pps said excellent health is not only your physical but emotional condition as well.

Quote:
I don't think falling into the opposite 'fatalistic' belief of 'I am healthy, therefore everything will be fine' is the answer.
This belief let me have or think that I have a certain control: I can do or not do a few things that will affect the result. It puts responsibility on me not fate or some unknown power. Some may call it naive or ignorant but not fatalistic.
There are times when one needs to block negative information - even the valid one - to stay in the positive mind frame. I hope that nobody will question that the last one is very important for a smooth birth.

Like you said: let's deal with one thing in a time. Pregnancy, birth, then we deal with the outcome.
olstep is offline  
Old 07-04-2010, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
olstep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsBlack View Post

Not that you asked for my assessment!
And not that anyone gets any guarantees in this life.
No I did not but I appreciate it. I have sent you a PM about juridical part of UC.
olstep is offline  
Old 07-05-2010, 12:27 AM
 
triscuitsmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Between Toronto and Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 1,822
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
The advice that I would give any woman no matter which choices she is making in how and where she will labour is to be aware that there are risks and there are no guarantees. What is important is that you are able to live with the risks you choose to take.
Yes. A million times over yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTA Mom View Post
The major thing my own loss taught me, is to just stay in the moment. I cannot be guaranteed that tomorrow something will happen. But right now, my baby is kicking, therefore alive, so I am happy.

Am I preparing for his/her eventual arrival? Yes, of course.

Do I expect him/her to come home with me?

That question is harder to answer. Yes, a part of me fully expects it. However, another part, the part that is all too aware of loss, tells me to also not take it as a given. That if I am so lucky, and I do mean lucky, to bring home a living, healthy baby, I should count my blessings. I do not and can never, take a good outcome as a 'done deal'.

Like I said, I have been in that 1% chance bracket before. I do realize though, that the majority of women will end up with healthy babies--how else has the human race survived and expanded to today, kwim? And I repeat that to myself.

As for you not feeling completely comfy UCing, I don't think falling into the opposite 'fatalistic' belief of 'I am healthy, therefore everything will be fine' is the answer. There are risks to birthing in a hospital as well, such as infections.

What you have to do is find your acceptable risk level. If something were to happen in the hospital--how would you feel? If something were to happen in your UC--how would you feel? What do you think you can live with? Then go from there.

Ami
I totally agree with this too.

Alison
Mama to Toad (08/06), Frog (01/09)... and new baby Newt born on his due date, Sep. 8, 2010
triscuitsmom is offline  
Old 07-05-2010, 10:58 AM
 
GuildJenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,517
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by olstep View Post
It does matter to me whether it 1% or 10%. 1% wont' shake my belief - maybe groundless for some people - that everything is going to be fine. It is not that I do not want to see or be aware of negative outcome possibility. But for my sanity I have to put it (the negative) far back on my mind when
1)I see that chances it can happen are very low.
2) there is not much I can do to affect it.
I think our brain has very powerful impact on our live. As one of pps said excellent health is not only your physical but emotional condition as well.



This belief let me have or think that I have a certain control: I can do or not do a few things that will affect the result. It puts responsibility on me not fate or some unknown power. Some may call it naive or ignorant but not fatalistic.
There are times when one needs to block negative information - even the valid one - to stay in the positive mind frame. I hope that nobody will question that the last one is very important for a smooth birth.

Like you said: let's deal with one thing in a time. Pregnancy, birth, then we deal with the outcome.
Olstep, I'm really not arguing with you.

I just want you to know that as someone for whom things went really, really wrong, the worst regrets I have are the points at which I did not ask questions about risk and where I too made the decision not to worry about the 1%. I went into my daughter's labour really quite sure that as a strong and healthy mother we would be fine. I wish that I had dispensed with that idea a little earlier...I don't especially blame myself in that way, because I just didn't know. And when I had a few concerns, I dismissed them as negativity.

I guess, gently, I sort of think if you have to put things out of your mind for your own sanity -- and I don't mean not dwelling on them, which isn't necessarily good, but just making a decision based on "well that just won't happen" -- you could be at risk for a harsh experience. The risk is still small, of course. But your original thread title and question was pretty absolute. I hope the discussion has helped.

~ Mum to Emily, March 12-16 2004, Noah, born Aug 2005, Liam, born January 2011, and wife to Carl since 1994. ~
GuildJenn is offline  
Old 07-05-2010, 11:05 AM
 
laohaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
fatalism = the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable

Excellent health of mother guaranteeing (inevitible result) healthy baby = fatalistic

Homeschooling mama to 6 year old DD.

laohaire is offline  
Old 07-06-2010, 09:29 AM
 
MsBlack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SE MO
Posts: 3,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
Olstep, I'm really not arguing with you.

I just want you to know that as someone for whom things went really, really wrong, the worst regrets I have are the points at which I did not ask questions about risk and where I too made the decision not to worry about the 1%. I went into my daughter's labour really quite sure that as a strong and healthy mother we would be fine. I wish that I had dispensed with that idea a little earlier...I don't especially blame myself in that way, because I just didn't know. And when I had a few concerns, I dismissed them as negativity.

I guess, gently, I sort of think if you have to put things out of your mind for your own sanity -- and I don't mean not dwelling on them, which isn't necessarily good, but just making a decision based on "well that just won't happen" -- you could be at risk for a harsh experience. The risk is still small, of course. But your original thread title and question was pretty absolute. I hope the discussion has helped.
When I had my UCs (well really also including my dr-attended hb and mw attended one, too), I prepared for all eventualities, informing myself as much as possible about risks, and 'what to do IF such and such happens'. I had hospital back up plans, and named people for specific roles in case of transport (watch the other kids, help me communicate w/hosp staff, etc).

Then I put it out of my mind, feeling I'd done all I could to prepare, to be aware of and prepared for 'negative eventualities'. No point in further consideration--time to fully commit to my dream-birth with confidence. After 5 healthy happy homebirths, 3 of them UC, my last baby/intended UC became a transfer and eventual csec. I did not go into that birth any differently w/respect to prep and confidence, etc, and putting the risks out of my mind. And I did go into that birth ready, as ever, to deal with the reality that presented itself; was freely able to see that that reality was not conducive to UC (signs during labor), took myself to hospital. And I had a csec after more hours of labor there, by my OWN call--doc was willing to wait longer but I just knew it was needed and I was right. I add that being a mw helped in some respects--but for that csec call, it was, and could only have been (given mine/baby's issues that were not clear even w/internal monitor and all the rest) a purely *mother-instinctive* choice.

Just saying--putting the risks out of your mind does not mean pretending it can't/won't happen. It does mean choosing to focus attention, and one's power, on birthing normally and with awareness.

But you are right, GuildJenn--olstep's question was pretty absolute!
MsBlack is offline  
Old 07-06-2010, 10:28 AM
 
GuildJenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,517
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsBlack View Post

Just saying--putting the risks out of your mind does not mean pretending it can't/won't happen. It does mean choosing to focus attention, and one's power, on birthing normally and with awareness.

But you are right, GuildJenn--olstep's question was pretty absolute!
I think you're good to share your perspective.

But with all respect, having a c-section and getting a healthy baby is still a completely different outcome than having your baby die. When your baby dies and all you're left with is empty arms, that's when your choices truly come back to haunt you. Most women will not experience that, fortunately.

In my case I did not have a magical awareness of the cord around my daughter's neck; I don't think this is because I was lacking in connection or self-awareness but it was because I was not a professional and wasn't able to assess the difference between 'normal' labour fear/pain/effort and anything else.

I was coached by the women around me to trust labour and trust my body, from pre-birth classes right up to where my daughter's heart stopped and - that was a mistake. I will never 'just' focus on the positive again -- and not in a fearful and negative way, but because I have a better understanding of the finer points of biology and physics.

I think both perspectives are important, particularly when someone asks.

~ Mum to Emily, March 12-16 2004, Noah, born Aug 2005, Liam, born January 2011, and wife to Carl since 1994. ~
GuildJenn is offline  
Old 07-07-2010, 11:59 AM
 
Quinalla's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 2,334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
All you can do is lower the risk of birth complications, you can never eliminate them completely. That is why it is so important to be informed on how risky certain things are so you can make informed choices. Well, actually you can eliminate your risk by never getting pregnant, but that sort of misses the point!

Katie trekkie.gif - Married to Mike 06/02/01, Mom to Sydney Anne born 11/21/09 and Alice Maeryn & Oliver Thomas born 04/24/13  hug.gif 

 

 

Quinalla is offline  
Old 07-08-2010, 09:26 AM
 
MsBlack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SE MO
Posts: 3,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
I think you're good to share your perspective.

But with all respect, having a c-section and getting a healthy baby is still a completely different outcome than having your baby die. When your baby dies and all you're left with is empty arms, that's when your choices truly come back to haunt you. Most women will not experience that, fortunately.

In my case I did not have a magical awareness of the cord around my daughter's neck; I don't think this is because I was lacking in connection or self-awareness but it was because I was not a professional and wasn't able to assess the difference between 'normal' labour fear/pain/effort and anything else.

I was coached by the women around me to trust labour and trust my body, from pre-birth classes right up to where my daughter's heart stopped and - that was a mistake. I will never 'just' focus on the positive again -- and not in a fearful and negative way, but because I have a better understanding of the finer points of biology and physics.

I think both perspectives are important, particularly when someone asks.
I agree, both perspectives are important!

Maybe it wasn't obvious from my last post--but there *were* signs that brought me to the hospital for my last birth. Yes, in the end when choosing a csec, it was more a matter of instinctive knowing...but that knowing was certainly informed by some pretty clear signs. Signs a parent could see for herself at home w/out monitoring, and even more signs at the hospital. But the doc, I guess, did not see those signs *yet* as life-threatening or contra-indicating vag delivery...it was my instinct that went there, sooner than the doc was able to since he was only relying on the rational/quantitative interpretation of signs that med technologies could generate.

If those kinds of signs are not apparent to the casual observer during labor (such as meconium), nor discovered by monitoring (whether not done, or not done carefully enough), well, that's somewhat different.

Anyway--we do agree, all perspectives are important for everyone to see in a thread like this.
MsBlack is offline  
 
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off