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MAJOR ETHICAL DILEMMA, Please Help :)

7K views 83 replies 40 participants last post by  lunabin 
#1 ·
A friend of mine had a baby exactly 10 weeks ago. The baby was born 7lbs 2ozs via c-section after both a failed induction. She hired one of my other friends (they previously didnt know each other) to nanny for a few weeks for her while she tied up some loose ends before summer at work (shes a professor at a very prestigous public health school, im not kidding). Since my friend has been nannying for them she has witnessed some very sad and disturbing behavior.

The mother is giving the baby breastmilk, exclusively from a bottle. The mother will only allow my friend to feed the baby 2 ozs every 3-4 hours!! The baby screams all the time. Before he eats, then keeps sucking and sucking on the empty bottle, but the mother insists that he is fine and doesnt need more. The just took the baby to the doctor last week, he only weighs 9lbs! The doctor is so concerned he told them they need to give the baby formula.

The mother also wont touch the baby at all. She wont even breastfeed or hold the baby at night. The husband is friends with mine and told mine he does all the nighttime feedings with a bottle. This week she left for two days for a business trip and literally didnt hug or kiss the baby at all when she left just said "mommys leaving, bye bye." Waved. And left. My friend was so put off.

The husband is just really weak and thinks because his wife has a doctorate that she must know everything. But I think she must have post partum depression or something, because she is literally starving her poor baby.

My husband and I are so upset we arent sure what to do. I sent her a text the other day asking her how things were going after she sent me one and she NEVER RESPONDED?!

Im at a loss. My husband thinks its child abuse and is livid. Im more from the "let people damage their own kids" mentality, but if something happened to this poor baby because she is mentally unstable and her stupid husband just trusts her judgement, I will never forgive myself...

PLEASE, someone give me some insight!! We are so concerned and would really like to hear everyones opinions. Have any of you experienced this with anyone you know?? Is this normal? Are we being over-concerned?

Thanks so much in advance!!!
 
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#27 ·
I understand... 2oz every 3 hours just isn't enough. But that information was provided by a temporary/part time nanny, to a friend of that nanny, then to this list. And the pediatrician's concerns about weight gain have a similar "telephone game" quality. Going to CPS with a "my friend told me that another friend isn't feeding her baby enough, and that new mom friend isn't returning my text messages" just isn't going to help anyone in this situation, and it may cause actually hurt. By offering to help out the OP can not only relieve some of the completely normal stress on the new family, but see for herself if her friend might be suffering from PPD (or perhaps having a difficult time adjusting to her surgical birth, or to new motherhood in general) or if the infant might be suffering from more than colic or a cultural/familial atmosphere in which mom is less involved in the baby care and more involved in the "out of home" side of supporting the family.
 
#28 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by wombatclay View Post

It's a very difficult situation because things like scheduled feeding or a lack of socially displayed maternal affection aren't "crimes". A call to the family doctor (or minister) about possible PPD/underfeeding might be more helpful than a call to CPS since, again, scheduled feedings and a mother who travels for business aren't crimes and while CPS may open a file they probably don't have the staff/time/budget to investigate this sort of report in any detail.
Scheduled feeding is not a crime, however, basically starving your baby is considered neglect and CPS does and should intervene in cases like these. OP--I would also definitely call the pediatrician. Explain who you are and that you understand that they cannot provide you with any information, but that you want to provide them with some information. I would also call CPS. wombatclay is right and they will likely not investigate--and if they do, there is about a 99.999% chance that they will not remove this child from this home, but it might scare mom into feeding this baby enough. I work in child welfare, and sad to say, mom's education, etc., will likely be enough to convince CPS to back off but it is worth a shot. You don't have to give them your name, and I doubt they'll figure out it is you since baby is also in daycare. Also, stick to the fact that the baby is being way underfed--not that mom is lacking maternal affection for her child. Good luck.
 
#29 ·
My BF baby was fed 2 oz every 3 hours when I went back to work at 7 weeks. She was fed on demand, and that is what she preferred. She also reverse cycled and nursed a lot when I was home, like every hour and a half. So while i understand the concerns of the OP, I also feel that there is a huge chunk of the story we don't have. Maybe she doesn't hold baby before she goes because she is broken up about leaving. Maybe she is suffering from PPD or PTSD. Maybe DH is doing bottles all night because the wife is hooked to a pump because baby has latch issues. What that woman and her DH need is support and guidence from her friends, her family, and her doctor, not the threat of a state agency taking away their child. Before I went to CPS I would do what the OP said she is doing - have them over for dinner and figure out exactly what is going on and why. Offer to help. Assess the situation for myself rather than hearing everything second or third hand. If they are intentionally starving baby, then yes, it is time for CPS. But there is a lot of other possibilities that should be eliminated before one can say this couple is abusing their baby.
 
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#30 ·
Hey All, wanted to post an update! The mom is still out of the country on business and the MIL is here and feeding the baby. The father told my DH that "its so weird how happy the baby is with my mother." DH and I just cringed. DH decided to go over and visit them this weekend and talk to the MIL. He thinks she will be a more powerful voice to her son than he will. The MIL hasnt seen the mother and baby interact yet, bu Im sure once mom is home, the MIL will be very concerned with the lack of emotional connection.

I am shocked that many of you know people who schedule infant feedings!! I do have a friend whose newborn ate (and still eats) every 3-4 hours, but it totally freaked her out!! I've never known anyone to schedule feedings.

I'll post another update once I know more.

Thank you all sooo much for your input! I have been so distraught over this.
 
#31 ·
Update 2, she came back and we went over for dinner. The MIL kept complaining (unknown to her, as it was in a foreign language) that she was starving the baby. But I spoke with her and she kept saying, "my MIL is overfeeding him" and I said, "oh, is he gaining too much weight?" "What, no. The opposite actually, but its fine." I didnt see her BF him the entire time, once the MIL gave him a bottle. And she didnt pump at all either. And we were there for 5 hours. She seems attached the baby though- i mean, not overly affectionate for sure, I could see how my other friend would be uncomfortable, but I think she just doesnt understand her personality. Not like she doesnt care about him though. She really does think she is doing whats best for him. I just am confused as to why she thinks her MIL is over-feeding a baby that even the pedi thinks is underweight? That makes no sense.

So, I did give her a bit of advice in a round about way. Right when I got there she started complaining about the MIL overfeeding and wasting all her milk stash, so I asked her a bunch of questions, "oh is the baby spitting up a lot?" "Yeah!" "Is the spit up chunky or just milk?" "Just milk." "Hmm, well, Ive never heard of overfeeding an infant. I think its probably fine unless your pedi thinks hes gaining too much weight." "Too much? No, hes underweight." "Oh, well then its probably fine, you have to be careful with underweight, doctors are required to report cases of infants not gaining enough weight to CPS and they will put the baby into a mandatory feeding program where they weigh the baby and you have to supplement with formula." "seriously?" "Thats what I've heard, yes. They take it very seriously. I would just feed feed feed him." Later, when she was complaining about her MIL saying she "gives terrible advice" and I said that "mine did too except when I was trying to put my son on a feeding schedule she said never to do that and once I stopped DS started gaining weight!" I could tell her wheels were turning.

I hope that it helps, the only comfort I have is that she doesnt seem depressed (other than being trapped with inlaws) and she isnt doing it on purpose. Well, not maliciously at least. I will see her again this week. She invited us over to go swimming. And the baby will start day care the day after the MIL leaves. So, they will certainly not under feed him!!! But I have to tell you, the baby looks terrible. REALLY TINY. I mean, hes still wearing newborn clothes and hes 3 months old now. He can barely hold up his wobbly head. He literally hasnt changed since birth. And he has trouble following things with his eyes :( Hes definitely behind developmentally. I'll post again once I see some weight gain on him. I know this story has upset a few of you! Im sorry, but really appreciate the support from you all!!!
 
#33 ·
Thank you for the update. I hope mom has reached a bit of a turning point & will consider what you've said... but mostly I just hope someone helps this poor baby.
greensad.gif
I'm glad she's not doing it maliciously, at least, since that's how it sounded to me at first. Keep us posted...
 
#34 ·
Some mothers do not love their children. It is nice to assume this is just PPD, but seriously, it might never change. It might be PPD, but it might just be how she is, which either way, it is not ok. But to me, it does not sound like PPD. If you two are close to the husband enough to talk to him, go to him when the wife is not around and talk to him about it. Maybe also, put in a private call to the pediatrician and let him/her know what you know but to keep it private that you called. You are just giving them information so they can keep an eye on things. I actually had to do that before, but it was a case of an older person who was not understanding things. The doctor never told him I called but ordered extra tests on him the next time.
 
#36 ·
I am going to throw out a few thoughts...

1) Yes it is very common to have babies on feeding schedules. I was hospitalized with a FTT baby (due to a combination of issues starting a few months before). They put him on a strict feeding schedule, regardless of him getting hungry between feedings. When we were discharged, and saw our Ped a few days later, she let us modify it to nursing on demand...

2) She said to you he spits up a lot. She should let her ped know and maybe try to see if he has GERD or reflux. That was one of our major problems. Reflux/GERD babies can do one of two things -- either not gain weight due to eating just enough to keep from starving but still scream because of the pain; or they can gain so much weight they are overweight for their age.

3) Try to encourage her to actually nurse...find out if there is a reason why she is pumping and feeding rather than direct nursing..
 
#37 ·
I would like to see an update on this poor starving baby! How's he doing now?

My SIL did the baby wise thing. Its such a freakish control thing for these moms. Their top priority is not to let the baby get the Better of them. Who would want a mom like that? My SiL would be crying and leaking milk outside the closed nursery door, with baby wailing in hunger in the crib inside, waiting for the "right time" on the schedule to feed. Hideous.

It's one way to teach a new resident of this planet that it is a rough world and no one is to be trusted. Great, we have to live with these heartless people for the rest of our lives. And people wonder why some people are just not good people.
 
#38 ·
I can't help but comment here... if she's experiencing any ppd or pp psychosis, then it's not that she is being malicious, but simply using poor judgement. It sounds like she is not intentionally hurting him, but I still think this is worth calling out and getting professional help involved.

If you happen to know who the pediatrician is, you can call him/her and tell them what the nanny told you about their feeding schedule and your concerns with the mother. Doctors are mandated reporters, so they would have to make the decision about whether or not to get cps involved. BUT, as a professional who's been there - cps is not an agency out to get parents in trouble. They simply want to protect kids. This poor baby may be in the hands of 2 new and overly stressed parents who are not in a rational mindset to see what is happening here. The baby very likely will not be taken away, but it could be a wake up call that could save this baby's life and get the parent's the help they need!

I feel so strongly about this, that if you pm me the info I will call myself!
 
#39 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post

Update 2, she came back and we went over for dinner. The MIL kept complaining (unknown to her, as it was in a foreign language) that she was starving the baby. But I spoke with her and she kept saying, "my MIL is overfeeding him" and I said, "oh, is he gaining too much weight?" "What, no. The opposite actually, but its fine." I didnt see her BF him the entire time, once the MIL gave him a bottle. And she didnt pump at all either. And we were there for 5 hours. She seems attached the baby though- i mean, not overly affectionate for sure, I could see how my other friend would be uncomfortable, but I think she just doesnt understand her personality. Not like she doesnt care about him though. She really does think she is doing whats best for him. I just am confused as to why she thinks her MIL is over-feeding a baby that even the pedi thinks is underweight? That makes no sense.

So, I did give her a bit of advice in a round about way. Right when I got there she started complaining about the MIL overfeeding and wasting all her milk stash, so I asked her a bunch of questions, "oh is the baby spitting up a lot?" "Yeah!" "Is the spit up chunky or just milk?" "Just milk." "Hmm, well, Ive never heard of overfeeding an infant. I think its probably fine unless your pedi thinks hes gaining too much weight." "Too much? No, hes underweight." "Oh, well then its probably fine, you have to be careful with underweight, doctors are required to report cases of infants not gaining enough weight to CPS and they will put the baby into a mandatory feeding program where they weigh the baby and you have to supplement with formula." "seriously?" "Thats what I've heard, yes. They take it very seriously. I would just feed feed feed him." Later, when she was complaining about her MIL saying she "gives terrible advice" and I said that "mine did too except when I was trying to put my son on a feeding schedule she said never to do that and once I stopped DS started gaining weight!" I could tell her wheels were turning.

I hope that it helps, the only comfort I have is that she doesnt seem depressed (other than being trapped with inlaws) and she isnt doing it on purpose. Well, not maliciously at least. I will see her again this week. She invited us over to go swimming. And the baby will start day care the day after the MIL leaves. So, they will certainly not under feed him!!! But I have to tell you, the baby looks terrible. REALLY TINY. I mean, hes still wearing newborn clothes and hes 3 months old now. He can barely hold up his wobbly head. He literally hasnt changed since birth. And he has trouble following things with his eyes :( Hes definitely behind developmentally. I'll post again once I see some weight gain on him. I know this story has upset a few of you! Im sorry, but really appreciate the support from you all!!!
Just some things that jumped out at me.
  • Some women don't BF but only pump and bottlefeed. Nothing wrong with that if that's how they want to do it. Better than formula at any rate. And perhaps she didn't want to pump while you were over b/c it embarrassed her or whatever. 5 hours without pumping isn't that extreme. She may have pumped right before you got there.
  • You alluded in another post that the MIL is from an overfeeding type culture, so I can see why this woman might be paranoid about MIL using up all of her hard-pumped milk stash.
  • I've seen a lot of new parents feed their tiny newborn babies (whose stomachs are about the size of a marble) an entire 60 ml of formula. Then the kid spits an insane amount of it back up all over itself. You can absolutely feed them too much. (Though it doesn't sound like this is the case in this situation.)
Someone else mentioned this baby might have GERD. I'm glad someone brought that up b/c it sounds like it could fit.

Anyway, I wonder too about an update on this situation.
 
#40 ·
Someone probably already said this, but it sounds like trauma from the birth - and it is likely very serious. But, CPS should be a last resort...is there some other way to get through to this mom how off her behavior is? She is likely totally numb...she can't feel a whole lot or she'll be deeply emotional over what happened during the birth. Can you recommend ICAN? Put her in touch with someone who can walk her through the grieving process and show her what needs to happen to bond with her baby? I have personally encountered this situation and sometimes just seeing someone else interract with the baby helps a mom wake up to how cold and distant she's acting.
 
#42 ·
i think it's important not to conflate the multiple issues in this particular situation:

mom is giving a lot of the day to day care of her infant to other people. this is NOT wrong. it's not attachment parenting, we may not agree with it, but it's NOT wrong. i have a couple of friends (both incidentally from the same culture, although i'm not sure if that's a factor) who are perfectly happy to have their MILs, other family members, nannies and daycare workers do a lot of the daily grunt work involved in caring for an infant. they were dropping off their infants at nana's house for weekly overnight visits and going on multiple day vacations without the baby from the beginning. obviously EBFing isn't possible in those situations, but they still started off giving their infants breastmilk. now, it's not how i would do things, and i worried and judged when i saw them doing this, but they are very bonded with their children as toddlers, and i don't worry at all any more.

mom isn't touching or "bonding" with her infant. this can be a serious sign OR it can be nothing. some people have a harder time than others with the infant stage, some people might have PPD, or there might be long term emotional issues. i think that the OP might be wise to mention the PPD thing to either the mom or the husband (find a checklist of signs of PPD and give it to him), but if it's not PPD, then it's too early to judge if the mom just doesn't really like the newborn stage, isn't finding the switch from professional woman to mother very easy or something else.

the baby looks "awful." this is another really sticky one. and again, it could be serious, or it could be nothing. the friend i mentioned before, i really worried about her and her baby because the baby was a really late bloomer, and coupled with her parenting style that i didn't really agree with, i wasn't sure if they were connected. a baby might be "small", "floppy" or otherwise appear to be behind because of underfeeding and no interaction, OR that could just be the way he is. my dd definitely appeared that way as a newborn... she was 5 weeks early and coupled with her natural inclination to be petite and slower on gross motor skills, it could definitely have appeared to others that there was something "wrong" with her as a newborn. the children that i was concerned about as infants (including my own!) are now all vibrant, vivacious and very mobile toddlers. so i think it's too early to make judgments about the appearance and development of an infant especially if we aren't medical professionals.

the mom isn't feeding enough and is using a schedule. sadly, a lot of people DO use scheduling and training on their infants. there are a lot of books out there that advocate it, and i am constantly surprised at the amount of people that i consider to be loving, attached parents who admit they used some kind of training for their kids. it really shocks me, but caring for an infant can be very overwhelming, and there is a lot of bad, "old wives" advice out there on both sides (attachment AND mainstream). it's really easy to understand how people could read or hear or be told some kind of crazy advice and really take it to heart. if you heard a friend was only feeding their baby 2oz and you had no other concerns about their behavior, what would you do? you'd call them or visit them and say, "hey, i think your baby is crying because he needs more milk" and she'd say "oh, but such and such a book told me," or "my grandmother said..." and you'd say, "that's terrible advice!" and that would be that.

anyway, i think we're jumping to conclusions because the very way this woman is parenting is counter to everything we think is important, and i think that might color our judgment a little bit. the only thing that's really wrong is that the baby is only getting 2oz per feeding and is crying a lot, and *might* be underweight. if the baby has GERD, he might be screaming all the time regardless of how often he's getting fed, and the weight issues might be due to that or just DNA. just focus on finding out why she's only feeding a small amount and go from there.
 
#43 ·
Last Update. Baby was put into day care right after my last post and gained over 2 lbs in less than 2 weeks. To me, clear case of the woman starving the crap out of the poor little guy. A rare instance where the baby was way better off not being cared for by his mother. He is still behind on milestones and gets sick all the time (longest lasting upper respiratory infection imaginable), but now that hes being fed I think he will start to catch up, hoping no permanent damage was done in the first 3 months.

I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast. For a newborn. This is unacceptable. There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need. Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement. A Pump does NOT drain the breast like a baby. Period.

This mother had given up breastfeeding her infant completely before 6 months. She once told me she hated it because they were meant for sex not for breastfeeding. And that breastfeeding ruined sex. So. I think that should shed some light onto where her head was.

At at party recently I was saying my four year old doesn't bother to throw fits when we are out because she knows she wont get what shes asking for if she does and she said, "i know right, its so annoying when they start to scream and embarrass you. Its like do you tell them no or just give them what they want until you get to the car." This woman has ONE BABY, he was 6 months old at the time. Shes clearly just deranged. The more I hear her talk about motherhood the more I realize how horribly damaged she must have been by her own parents to see being a mother the way she does. Like this annoying task that has to be done because her husband wanted kids.

So sad. I guess everyone doesn't have an affectionate mom :( They are a cry-it-out family too, as it turns out.

Thanks for all your support and suggestions on this topic! Much appreciated. Glad we didn't have to call social services.
 
#44 ·
oh my god. i cannot even imagine how twisted our society has become that a woman believes this is the right way to care for a baby. WHAT THE H***! Omg, it literally makes me want to scream! I cannot imagine watching this. I would have gone absolutely crazy. Why cant people TAKE A STEP BACK and use their intuition.
 
#45 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post

I completely disagree with posters who said that some moms prefer to bottle feed pumped milk instead of breastmilk from the breast. For a newborn. This is unacceptable. There is no way to pump frequently enough to get that poor baby what they really need. Sometimes sure, but you either feed from the breast or supplement. A Pump does NOT drain the breast like a baby. Period.
I'm not sure why you "disagree" with mom's pumping and bottle feeding. It is a huge trend I've seen. I wouldn't do it but I think this is bridging a gap for mom's who don't want to bf (or can't) but still want to give the baby breastmilk. I had to pump for my first baby for a few weeks (we syringe fed and tried to nurse) and it would have been more than enough for him. I have a huge oversupply.

I'm glad the baby is doing better. You seem really mad at this mother and I while I realize you're upset, you're getting mean about it. You have no idea what's going on in her head and how they want to run their family. I get where you're coming from but I don't think you can let it get to you so much.
 
#46 ·
No no, I mean exclusively pumping. I.E. no breast time. I have spoken with multiple lactation consultants and LLL leaders about this issue. Everyone I spoke to said the same thing, unless you have an oversupply problem, the average mother cannot pump enough to completely bottle feed breastmilk for a newborn.

yeh, its really hard to watch. I think I am mad at her. I guess I need to let go of it. But my husband and I still feel, I dont know, upset by the whole thing. :(
 
#47 ·
There are a lot of moms who EP (in fact, there are some right here on this forum) and their babies are just fine. A good friend of mine had a baby born at 28 weeks and he spent two months in the nicu, where she pumped constantly with a hospital pump and kept her supply going until the baby got to come home. After he came home, she tried to get him to latch and he never would. She saw LC's, she stopped the bottles, she did everything she could and he just wouldnt latch, and the crying at the breast stressed everyone out to the point where she decided to exclusively pump instead. He is two years old and has a brand new little sister and is still drinking breastmilk from a sippy cup and not nursing. Supply is all about how often the breasts are being drained, so it is possible to for an average mother to pump enough to be able to feed their baby, especially with a high quality pump.

While you might not agree with it, there are times when a mom has to do that and there is no point in saying its impossible to do it and have a healthy baby because that just stresses mom's out who are having a hard time.

Im glad the situation with your friend is being taken care of, and it does seem like she has some bonding issues. But, not all moms who EP have bonding issues.
 
#48 ·
I agree that exclusively pumping is not impossible as you seem to think it is... there are moms here who do it quite successfully. I think it's a disservice to them to put them in the same category as a mother who is starving her child. There are lots of different ways to feed a baby well -- and it doesn't matter what method you are using if you're starving your child.

I am glad the baby is finally getting fed but I think it's horrible that he had to wait so long because no one wanted to get involved or whatever.
greensad.gif
 
#49 ·
That is definitely an extra-ordinary situation. And not what Im talking about. There was clearly a medical reason for her to need to EP. Of course, that is totally fine. There will always be outliers to every rule. But Im saying in general, exclusively pumping is really taking a huge risk that you will underfeed you baby.
 
#50 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenimBebek View Post But Im saying in general, exclusively pumping is really taking a huge risk that you will underfeed you baby.
Can you please cite your source for this? I know that there's been a huge trend (not saying majority) towards pumping and bottle-feeding. While again, I wouldn't do it, where have you seen research on this not being enough?
 
#51 ·
You know, the more I think about this, the more I feel like you havent really thought this through, women exclusively pumping that is. Have you thought about the fact that some women dont like the idea of having another human close to their breast because they :

a) were sexually abused
b) have issues with the body regarding weight or how their breasts look
c) have sensory issues related to the feeling of a baby being latched
d) are completely uneducated

I really dont think that women who are EPing for reasons that you dont know about/ understand are doing it because "breasts are for sex, not babies." Most women who have that kind of mentality just go ahead and formula feed their babies (at least the only two women Ive ever met with that mentality feed formula only). EPing is a LOT of work. It takes twice (at least) the amount of time that EBF does when you consider that you have to pump AND spend the time to bottle feed, along with all the time it takes to clean your breast pump, thaw milk, and keep bottles and nipples clean. Couple all that effort with a google search that results in a thread like this where someone is proclaiming that they are "underfeeding their baby" and that is a recipe for women who are busting their as* to just give up and buy formula that afternoon. It is a total PIA to EP , and most mothers are not doing because it is easier, by any means. Most women who EP have a good reason for it.

As far as you "okaying" (not that its really your place) mamas who EP for medical reasons, I would venture to say that my friend who had medical reasons is not in the minority. Most mama's who are EPing are doing all this extra work because they care that their baby get breastmilk instead of formula. I would say almost everyone who EP's either has a medical reason or one of the reasons I listed above. Either way, most moms who have to EP are sad that they cannot have the breastfeeding relationship that they want. People who just dont want a baby close to their breast are more than likely the minority here.

Personally, Im so lazy I barely ever pumped because it takes too much time to clean the tubes and I dont have to go to work, but, I have a lot of respect for women who go to all that effort so their kid can have breastmilk.
 
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