Quote:
Originally Posted by
Poogles0213
Why is choosing not to feel pain the same as failing to see strength in one's body, though? My agonizing menstrual cramps are all natural, but I choose not to writhe in pain - I use painkillers. Does this mean I do not see the strength in my body? What's the difference?
Why assume that women who choose an epidural "don't have faith in their bodies" or "are so paralyzed" by fear, though? Maybe they just choose not to feel pain during this process - what's wrong with that?
How do you define "good outcome"? I define it as "healthy baby, healthy mom" - in that order. How does an epidural decrease safety?
Also, when an epidural should be used should be up to the individual woman - it is not up to you or anyone else to decide if the woman in now in the land of "last resort" and "needs" an epi. It is pain relief. Pain relief should be available to patients experiencing pain as they feel it is needed. Period.
Do you realize how insulting you sound when you imply that anyone who has used an epi (or other interventions) has missed "out on the true experience and all of the real feelings" of their child's birth?!
What "light at the end of the tunnel"? What if she doesn't believe there is any merit to natural birth, for her? She's obviously been exposed to it, knows it's a viable option, and then rejected it. Why must her choice be subjected to all these assumptions that she just must not be strong enough, informed enough, courageous enough, or is too conditioned by societal norms??
Whoa boy. Okay. You ask what is the difference between using pain meds for menstrual cramps vs. for giving birth. The difference is you *need* to be able to feel your body to effectively give birth. That's why *even* when a woman has an epidural during labor, they need to either let it wear off or turn it down somewhat before she can feel enough to push the baby out. Being able to move freely, choose the movements and positions that feel "right," and use gravity to help, usually helps a woman have a quicker and more straightforward labor and birth. Being flat on your back, regardless of how much or little pain you feel, is pretty much the worst position to be in when your body is trying to get that baby to move down and out.
You define "good outcome" as "healthy baby, healthy mom." Of course I agree with that. And epidurals (statistically speaking) decrease the chances of both. Not speaking for anyone else here. But for myself, a good outcome means not just healthy but also happy. An excellent bonding experience after birth, nobody getting between me and my baby, a great start to breastfeeding, my baby being treated gently at all times, sharing those transformative moments with people of my choosing, in an environment of my choosing. Not dealing with the effects or after-effects of drugs (for myself or my baby.) Being able to look back on the experience and feel elated at what I accomplished all on my own. Come to think of it, all those happy things I described also count as "healthy." It seems a lot of people define "healthy" just to mean "alive, and even if suffering in the moment, going to recover eventually." Clearly a good birth experience is not as important, or important at all, to many women. I honestly cannot fathom why, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them. I do, really. Again, I am speaking for myself, not others. Just trying to explain my reasoning.
I know I'm probably not communicating as well as I could. I certainly did not mean to come across insulting--as I said, it's a difficult thing to put into words because people (clearly) get very easily offended. But yes, I absolutely believe that *not being able to feel large parts of my body* would mean a *gigantic* loss of experience while giving birth--to me that is just "duh." Obviously *you* don't feel the same way, and that's okay with me. But isn't it okay if I don't *get* that? Being in a medical setting at all, for me, with other people doing things to me, yeah, I would be focused on dealing with all of that rather than focused on working with my body to make things happen. Not being able to *feel* my body? I can't imagine! Yes, it is important to me to *feel* my baby coming into the world, through my body, both physically and spiritually. I would choose an epidural if I felt I had to in order to get the baby born, but yes, it would be a loss of experience.
I know that people who have experienced both (all natural vs. medicated) are the only ones who can truly compare, and I know I have only seen one side of this personally. So I don't mean to be insulting. What I experienced (twice!) was just so sublimely awesome that I hate the thought of anyone missing out on that if there's any possibility they could've had it. It's the same reason that religious evangelists come across as obnoxious and insulting a lot of the time. They have seen God and they want you to experience what they "know." LOL By my intention is not to insult or diminish anyone.
Yes, how we give birth comes with choices, and those choices should belong to to woman herself and be treated with respect. Nobody should tell her what the best choice for her is, it's true. I totally agree with you there. But here's the thing. Women in this culture *are* undermined and *are* trained to fear birth, to maximize the fear of childbirth pains and to minimize their healthy distrust of anyone messing with their bodies in invasive ways, at least when it comes to giving birth. The HUGE majority of women in our culture don't study pregnancy and birth. Most women in our culture have never seen a natural birth, many may not even know anyone who's had one. Most are ignorant about the natural process and how interventions can impede it. The huge majority *do* just assume their doctors know best, even when the majority of doctors do not practice evidence-based care. So when you are making an uninformed choice, how much of a choice is it really? Would you make a different choice if you really knew all the facts?
If someone decides the benefits of an epidural outweigh the risks for her, that's great. She knows what she wants, more power to her. When someone isn't aware that there even *are* risks, and the "benefits" are blown out of proportion in her mind, that is not an educated choice. Seeing friends you love make uneducated choices that may mess things up for them, well, it's hard. That doesn't mean you can't support them and respect them. It doesn't even mean they aren't making the best choice for *themselves.* It's just hard.
This info can be found in Chapter 8 of Henci Goer's Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth:
Epidurals slow labor, which results in increased use of Pitocin, and usually results in higher rates of episiotomy, forceps and vacuum extraction, and c-sections, especially in first-time mothers. Epidurals require electronic fetal monitoring and a precautionary IV. You are more likely to need bladder catheterization and more likely to develop a fever.
Electronic fetal monitoring increases the odds of a c-section. IVs, especially when given in large amounts over a short time, as they are when administering an epidural, can cause fluid overload, which leads to fluid in mother's and baby's lungs, maternal anemia, and blood chemistry disturbances in mother and baby. Bladder catheterizations can cause UTIs.
Oxytocin can lead to overly forceful contractions and fetal distress. Forceps and episiotomy increase the probability of anal tears, which can have long-term effects on sexual satisfaction and fecal incontinence.
C-section has both short and long-term risks. Maternal fever may stress the baby during labor. And because fever may signal uterine infection, the baby is more likely to be separated from you after birth for observation and subjected to blood tests, a spinal tap, etc. Some data suggest that epidurals increase the probability of actual infection in the baby.
The procedure itself, apart from the drugs involved, can cause problems. An epinephrine test dose can cause fetal distress. Using air to locate the epidural space can cause neurological and other complications. The catheter can injure blood vessels and irritate nerves.
Potential postpartum complications include temporary urinary incontinence, nerve injury, a blood-filled swelling, and an excruciating, incapacitating headache which can last for days (spinal headache.) In the newborn, epidurals may cause adverse physical and behavioral effects.
I don't want to type out the whole book, but it goes on to describe potentially life-threatening complications as well (life-threatening to both mother and baby) including a dangerous drop in blood pressure, drop in baby's heart rate, convulsions, respiratory paralysis, cardiac arrest. Respiratory paralysis and cardiac arrest occur as commonly as 1 in 3,000. To give you some perspective, drugs causing serious adverse reactions in this range have been withdrawn from the market or forced into restricted use.
It goes on to describe adverse physchological effects of having a medicalized birth.
Recent innovations in technique have not reduced the incidence of problems.
I personally can't understand why someone would take that amount of risk to themselves and their child if they didn't *have* to. I admit that I usually conclude that the person is unaware of the risks--because it just seems so illogical to me. Maybe I am missing something. I do understand why so many women have such an irrationally high fear of birth, as pregnant/birthing women in our culture are not seen as the badasses they are. They are pathologized, infantilized, disrespected and acted *upon* when really they are the ones who should be in charge. It seems most people don't question the flaws of their culture and are more willing to see flaws in themselves.
Again, I don't have to *understand* what someone is thinking/feeling to be able to still *respect* them. And I will continue to agree with all of you that it's the woman's choice and as her friend, you should be supportive of her.
But that does not mean I have to be supportive of practices that harm and disempower people, and it does not obligate me to just shut up, when I think I have information that may help others.