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Old 04-28-2004, 04:42 PM
 
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The book *is* great, and I've read most of those on your list. I've checked it out at the library and borrowed it from my mw. The last thing I can afford right now is another book Henci's other book, Obstetrical Myths vs. Research Realities is also fantastic (and scary!)

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Old 04-29-2004, 03:39 AM
 
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Henci's book has a level of detail I haven't seen in other books, but if you're already planning a homebirth there probably isn't much in there that is going to be relevant to you personally. It's really directed at the stupid unnecessary routine procedures done at hospitals. Basically she reviews all the medical literature in depth, provides summaries and sources, and explains the risks involved with induction, cesareans, routine monitoring, episiotimies, etc.

Someone asked if vaginal birth does change the vagina... I'm inclined to think that natural vaginal birth normally does not. But how would we know? Most women have managed births, so it really hard to say anymore what normal natural birth looks like, and what its effect is on the body. Personally, I haven't had instrumental births, episiotomy, or iatrogenic tearing, and my vagina feels no different to me (nor to my husband) than it did before I had children.
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:52 AM
 
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never mind the huge slice across your abdomen and muscles and uterus from a c-section. And what about women who want large families, each c-section decreases the amount of children you may be able to have. Ugh!
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Old 04-29-2004, 12:19 PM
 
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Sadly, many women DO experience trauma to their pelvic floor from.... from tearing (vagina to anus), prolapse issues, etc...

(I suffered a 2nd degree tear to my vagina and 3rd degree tear to my anus. Also my vagina is much looser as a result.... DH has mentioned it and Kegel's has helped. Though interestingly I blame the PITOCIN drip - which apparently weakens the pelvic floor! And how hard I pushed (coached) and the pressure I felt to get the baby out to avoid the Csec. Do I regret having a vaginal birth? Hell no. I would not choose a C-sec unless it was medically necessary.)

But I completely blame HOW women end up giving birth - worst position position (flat on their backs, knees pullled up) with COACHED pushing by hospital staff. Watching a Baby Story is downright depressing when it comes to birthing the baby.

That's what this "expert" doesn't get. It's not "natural" or "vaginal" birth that is the problem, it's "medically managed" birth.

And that's what many women don't understand and those same women are demanding C-secs to "prevent" these issues. They hear that other women didn't have a recovery that was "so bad" (many don't) and think they'll be OK... and accept the risks.

There is a long thread somewhere on this topic and the moms are demanding their right to a C-sec.

10 - boy
5.5 - girl
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Old 04-29-2004, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've tried to find the thread, but can't. I typed "tightness" into the search thing but didn't see it. You're probably not allowed to post it...but is there a better keyword?
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
So, can I ask a really stupid question? *Does* having babies make you looser? What about a lot of babies?
Firstly, I'd like to offer the idea that being pregnant could change the strength of the pelvic floor muscles, which is what we're talking about when we're talkin' about "tight"...since the vagina is a "potential space" between the posterior portion of the bladder and the anterior portion of the rectum.

Pregnancy can compromize the pelvic floor because the uterus, housing baby and fluid and placenta for months and months, is pushing the abs to the sides of the woman, the weight is placing strain on her back, which has to work harder/differntly because the abs aren't doing their usual thang, thus all the key body parts that are used to keep the trunk stable are compromized:
-back
-abs
-pelvic floor

So one of these areas can suffer because one of these areas cannot do its job the way it does it when unpregnant. This is why the occupational therapist I see for my pelvic floor weekness also TREATS WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD C-SECTIONS for weakness in their pelvic floors. And check this out: my OT, specializing in the pelvic floor, just passed me off to one of her partners in the clinic, because a main reason why my pelvic floor was sloppy is because it was working overtime, compensating for weakness in my hamstrings, good lord, who would've known that?!?!? The other reason is, by KEGELING, things are snappy, sassy, and happy in my neitherregions. {Because my weak hamstrings make my pelvis work harder to keep my body upright and happy and carrying around my kids all day...that makes my pelvic floor permanently 'stressed' and therefore unable to calm down and strengthen up (my OT likened this to trying to build a bigger bicep by lifting a weight if your arm were always lifted above your head, weak, stressed muscle twitching about.)}

Secondly, I am a fundamentalist when it comes to my credo that vaginas were made to birth babies.

Just as I am a staunch believer that I can count on my body to defecate properly, creating poop that is not too big to expell, signaling to me when it is time to go take a dump, following my instincts on when and how to push the poop out of my body, I am a beliver that women can birth babies vaginally, desipte what a scissor-happy OB might say (and c-sec mamas, I am not even going to bother caveating this 'cause you know I luv U and understand that there are indeed reasons that are not CPD or FTP that may require obstetrical intervention for the safety of mom 'n' baby.)

What's more, I belive that, like my butt, my vagina will recover from the temporary state of baby in birth canal...when given the oppertunity to birth in a natural, non-interventive state.

Tanibani & blueviolet, I couldn't agree more with the medical vaginal births resulting in crazy traumas to the crotch...VAGINAL births don't result in it, messing with a vaginal birth results in vaginal trauma, just like sticking a Q-tip in your ear can result in ear trauma (it's not your EAR'S FAULT)...but people do these things 'cause that's what people have done for the past 70 years.

If I had to choose between my Worst Nightmare of a Vaginal Hospital Birth and a Standard Cesarian Birth, I'm not sure which I'd pick...I'm truly not sure......because a cesarian birth is surgical, but what happens to many vaginal birthers in hosptials these days is dehumanizing.

And of course, properly-executed kegels are the anwer to increasing 'tightness'...no need to seek out a 'greener' vagina for transplant, mamas, in case any of you are secretly IMing that cool surgeon guy who wrote that awesome Amazon review!
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
"Furthermore, as a man, I know that vaginal childbirth can induce permanent and undesirable changes in the vagina...If this were a perfect world, I suppose men wouldn't care about such a thing, but the fact is they do. Women can ignore this, but only at their own peril. Men, being men, generally don't feel comfortable enough to discuss this with their partners if it's a problem. Instead, they'll often look for a greener (can I say tighter?) pasture."
This is a common perception from a man who has had his foreskin amputated. The enveloping sensation of the (movable) foreskin around his penis is gone and he seeks it from the barrel of the vagina, and some not understanding this, ultimately blame the woman when it is "his" anatomy that has been permanently and undesirably changed. Circed or not, this is not a viable "excuse" to look for "tighter" pastures. Someone should inform him about loosening up some of that skin on his penis with manual stretching excercise so that he can somehow perhaps begin to repair a bit of his damaged organ. Or protect himself from further keratinization. Otherwise he might be headed straught for impotency.

And tell him his wife's yoni is %100 fine and she is perfect just the way she is.

Results will vary depending on the degree of damage:

The Joy of Uncircumcising!
http://www.norm.org/joy.html

"the penile glans is continually being scratched and as we age the penile glans surface dries and thickens. It is this process that decreases sensitivity, making sex less pleasurable and orgasm harder to achieve."
http://www.manhood.mb.ca/

The Vulnerability of Men:
"Even though they rarely will discuss the issue, they are keenly aware that they have been surgically altered in a very private way."
http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:20 PM
 
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OMG, Last Minute, that is the coolest, most novel, & intriguing perspective I've heard in a long time, and my favorite part about your fresh insight is the plausibility of it. Here I am, all WHOOO empowered woman, and yet I neglect to think of the man's potential for his defective anatomical contribution to the "Dysfuncion of Looseness." (I neglect, 'cause it ain't the vagina's fault ANYWAY.)


It takes two to tango...
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:35 PM
 
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Last Minute, thank you for posting that. I was going to ask FranklySpeaking to come over from the circ board to say the same thing. He explained it best on this thread:

Circing just the tip of the foreskin

Quote:
Sarah: You are absolutely right. The ridged band (Taylor's band) is like the vaginal sphincter. It is there for a purpose and it is sexually sensitive. Just the same as if you removed the muscles around the vaginal opening, removing the ridged band leaves the area sexually insensitive to that stretching sensation and will leave it loose and "sloppy." Once it is removed, it also loses it's function of stimulating the glans. You see, the glans is primarily a pressure sensitive organ and the ridged band stimulates the glans with that pressure. That pressure sensitivity is why circumcised men like a tight vagina and the foreskin is exactly why a tight vagina is less important to intact men. They are self stimulating via their preputial sphincter. That is not to say that some tightness is not important at all, just less important.

The male penis is a remarkably well designed organ to do it's intended purpose and there really aren't any superflourous parts. Just as we could do well with one less finger on each hand, a man can reproduce and enjoy it without all of the parts but we are better off with all of our fingers and all of our penis.
I love anti-circ activists.

Tinyshoes - LOVED your post... you are absolutely right that PREGNANCY already affects the pelvic floor... and Csection doesn't guarantee a pre-pregnancy vagina. :

PS Greaseball, nope that thread I referred to is not at MDC. And you are right, I can't post the link.

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Old 04-29-2004, 11:37 PM
 
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Last Minute, RIGHT ON!!! I thought about that too when I read this guys opinion.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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Old 04-30-2004, 12:52 AM
 
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tinyshoes, i also thank you for your post.

lest we forget in our technocratic culture, vaginas *were* made to birth babies--at least as long as we take a stand for mothers, babies and normal birth!


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Old 04-30-2004, 02:46 AM
 
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... by Mothra
... This is one of the reasons why I refuse to have male ob/gyns. I KNOW that not all of them think this way, but it is a risk I'm not willing to take ...

My OB (whom we like a lot) put it this way: Men become OB/GYNs either because they absolutely love women, or because they absolutely loathe women ... or because they want to become women.

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Old 04-30-2004, 02:09 PM
 
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I am about half way through the book "Every since I had my baby". Here the amazon link for it. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...ance&s=booksIt written by a male ob. It talks at great length about pelvic floor concerns and incontinence. This author says woman with vaginal births have more issues with pelvic floor concerns, but especially if they have vacuum extractions or forcep deliveries. He said c-sections might be a tool to avoid that except that right now there is no way to determine who is at highest risk beforehand to pelvis floor problems. I thought the book was pretty balanced unlike the bonehead who wrote that review.
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Old 05-03-2004, 06:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tinyshoes
If I had to choose between my Worst Nightmare of a Vaginal Hospital Birth and a Standard Cesarian Birth, I'm not sure which I'd pick...I'm truly not sure......because a cesarian birth is surgical, but what happens to many vaginal birthers in hosptials these days is dehumanizing.
After experiencing both, I'd have to agree -- talk about your hell and a hard place choice. In the end, I opted out of the whole hospital birth thing, had my son at home, and never looked back. It seemed pointless to put myself at that level of risk of medical assault with so miniscule a chance of any of it being necessary.


Quote:
The other reason is, by KEGELING, things are snappy, sassy, and happy in my neitherregions.
Oh, I so agree. Kegels are the bomb. Also, I think way too many people blame common aging issues on pregnancy & childbirth. You'd think childless women never ever suffer from incontinence or flabby abs. According to that f'wittage, if I never had kids, I'd have the same tightness I had in middleschool AND still be wearing size 7/8 jeans. Please. By the time I was 30, I could already tell the difference in tightness made by only 10 yrs of regular sex. That's when I got into researching kegels and discovered a very obvious truth: that there is no muscle in your human body that is immune to aging and atrophy, and that would of course include your vaginal and pelvic floor muscles, not to mention your glutes and abs. Bottom line is if you want a muscle to stay toned, you have to tone it. Duh.
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Old 05-03-2004, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, what about incontinence in men? What explains that? I think with women, we've just found a convenient thing to blame it on.
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Old 05-03-2004, 07:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
Men, being men, generally don't feel comfortable enough to discuss this with their partners if it's a problem. Instead, they'll often look for a greener (can I say tighter?) pasture."
This guy is a PIG and he makes me SICK. :Puke
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Old 05-05-2004, 04:24 PM
 
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"This author says woman with vaginal births have more issues with pelvic floor concerns, but especially if they have vacuum extractions or forcep deliveries. He said c-sections might be a tool to avoid that except that right now there is no way to determine who is at highest risk beforehand to pelvis floor problems."

I'd say there is a way to know who is at highest risk -- it's whoever gives birth under the traditional obstetrical model of birth management. (Which unfortunately some midwives subscribe to as well.) I'm curious if the author talks about avoiding a managed second stage as a preventative measure? Does he distinguish between unmanaged birth and managed birth (not just instrumental vaginal birth) at all?
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Old 05-12-2004, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blueviolet
I'd say there is a way to know who is at highest risk -- it's whoever gives birth under the traditional obstetrical model of birth management. (Which unfortunately some midwives subscribe to as well.) I'm curious if the author talks about avoiding a managed second stage as a preventative measure? Does he distinguish between unmanaged birth and managed birth (not just instrumental vaginal birth) at all?
Well, blueviolet, I can't speak for the author of the book review, and I share your interest in seeing some compare & contrasts of natural, unmanaged births versus typical meddled-with hospital tomfoolery. I just came across an article that I thought was pertanant to this discussion.

The article Vaginal Delivery Affects Pelvic Organ Support published on March 1, 2004 in the periodical American Family Physician describes a study of 200 Australian women, and their pelvic floors: "Dietz and Bennett used a prospective observational study to document the effects of childbirth-related trauma on pelvic support structures in nulliparous women."

Researchers studied the motility of pregnant women's urethra, bladder, cervix, and rectal ampulla (I guess that's the butt, hunh?) during early pregnancy, late pregnancy, and after birth.

It is interesting that every woman had increased mobility (i.e., when bearing down, the bladder decended, thus indicating a weakness, or slackening, or change, however you want to describe it) during the last portion of her pregnancy. This clearly indicates that by virtue of being pregnant, a woman's body will change.

Quote:
Cesarean delivery before the onset of labor was associated with an average reduction in bladder neck descent of 2.27 mm, whereas all other forms of delivery were associated with increases ranging from an average of 2.63 mm for stage 1 cesarean delivery to 14.49 mm for forceps delivery.
I'd like to know the numbers for non-instrumental vaginal (yes, evil hospital managed vaginal) delivery, too, but they're not included. The authors include a note that
Quote:
at least one study indicates that by age 50, women have the same rate of urinary incontinence regardless of delivery mode, and some nulliparous women also develop incontinence with age.
and

Quote:
Certainly, widespread use of elective cesarean delivery seems excessive for the estimated 5 to 10 percent reduction in risk of moderate to severe incontinence, especially when weight control and pelvic floor exercises offer alternative means of risk reduction
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Old 05-12-2004, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by merpk
My OB (whom we like a lot) put it this way: Men become OB/GYNs either because they absolutely love women, or because they absolutely loathe women ... or because they want to become women.

That's pretty much the same thing that my (male) ob/gyn friend told me. Something he told me that was even scarier was that a lot of men, more than women, don't make it through their residency, or whatever, because their hatred/envy of women is apparent. More women in administration=good thing.
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Old 05-28-2004, 10:57 PM
 
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oh, gross.

let me get this straight-- this guy believes that every woman should have every baby via major abdominal surgery in order to-- hold on, let me think how to word this-- in order to keep her husband's sexual interest?

man, that's weak.
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Old 05-29-2004, 02:28 AM
 
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Just reading while I kegel...
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Old 05-29-2004, 11:09 AM
 
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Just reading while I kegel...
Hee, hee ....me too!
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Old 05-29-2004, 12:06 PM
 
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FWIW, I recently read that bicycling has the same positive effects as kegels, and my midwife confirmed this. I just went and bought a new helmet

I especially appreciated this because I DO feel looser, and though I try and try to do kegels, I never seem to get it quite right. ATM I am 7 months prego, but for later, how does one go about finding one of these occupational therapists?

And in the meantime, hit the road ladies, it's good for the environment and your sex life!

Rochelle
Mommy to Meg 5/00, Peter 6/02, #3 due 8/04
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Old 05-30-2004, 10:37 PM
 
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I read in Open Season that doctors' wives are the people most likely to get sectioned.
AND doctor's families are subject to more interventions of every possible kind since they truly believe that they are doing every one a BIG favor!

Since obstetricians have been doing 20-25% caesarean sections for the last twenty years, are they doing less surgery for urinary incontinence? I do not believe so, as the above posts conclude.

My DH never had any complaints about me after four vaginal deliveries w/o an episiotomy. Believe me, he would have said something, since he told me everything! Often it was TMI,:

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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Old 05-30-2004, 10:47 PM
 
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My OB (whom we like a lot) put it this way: Men become OB/GYNs either because they absolutely love women, or because they absolutely loathe women ... or because they want to become women.
Yes,

...and the best and the brightest in medical school do not go into obstetrics or gynecology. Although the obstetrical rotation during medical school is often the favorite that most doctors recall from medical school, the best and brightest of the interns often go into cardiology and internal medicine since some intelligent, critical thinking is involved. Let me qualify, NOT ALWAYS, but often, the bottom 10% of the graduating medical school class will go into ob/gyn. The odd hours and stress often will weed out the smartest. The reason there aren't more deaths in childbirth from the less qualified doctors is because of antibiotics, blood transfusions, and simply that most women who go on to have a baby are healthy no matter what the hospital does to them and the baby is healthy 90% of the time if it reaches term...the human body strives to live and be healthy often in spite of the abuse it is given.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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