What's the point???? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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Birth and Beyond > What's the point????
3bees~1flower's Avatar 3bees~1flower 07:44 PM 09-22-2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by klothos
just chiming in with the belief that birth should be treated like what it is: a natural bodily function that women's bodies were made for!

BIRTH

IS

NOT

A

MEDICAL

PROCEDURE.


surgical births carry so much risk with them. why chance it?




and why have a homebirth? because HOME BIRTH EMPOWERS WOMEN.

it can be one of the most deeply spiritual and healing events of a woman's life...


OR


she can hand over that power to a doctor and let him slice her open and tear the baby from her womb.



fun.

What an insulting post!!! i CHOOSE c-birth b/c i have a small pelvis and make large babies....over 10 lbs...i tried vbac with #2...he would have never come out!! #3 was over 10 #'s...#4 will born c-birth in a few weeks....and is everybit as big....(#1 was doubling footling breech and 7 weeks early) THIS is why i have c-births...show a little sensitivitiy, would ya!! my babies were/are NOT "tore from my womb"!! how insulting! : i don't care what the circumstances are surrounding a woman's reason for having a c-birth, but to say such a thing is aweful!

Changed's Avatar Changed 09:06 PM 09-22-2004
With all due respect 3boyz4us, while you may find her post insensitive, it's true to a fault. CHOOSING a section is not a good idea nor is it natural. It has it's risks. Having a disproven pelvis is another story entirly and I think you know that. This is MDC, you kow? Natural family living? There are few people here who are going to agree that it's fine to opt for a c section without damn good reason. Because it's totally unnatural and dangerous. And I've had a c section myself, btw, emergancy at 33 weeks gestation. It was horrible compared to my first, vaginal birth.
Changed's Avatar Changed 09:09 PM 09-22-2004
Another thing.... You can't take offense to someone elses opinion. Saying that " i'm only expressing MY personal preferance or opinion" shouldn't even be an issue. I think that's self explanitory. Obviosly it's MY opinion. I wrote it.
edamommy's Avatar edamommy 09:17 PM 09-22-2004
I wish I could agree w/ your friend. I had a csection (emergency) and still suffer from the emotional let down of it all. As a child even, I imagined when I would have a baby. Naturally. To have to make it a surgical procedure to end a pregnancy is just SAD. :
Annie's Avatar Annie 09:17 PM 09-22-2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~lapetitesirene~
Hmmm.what about the accidental cutting of your bladder...
A friend of my mom's, about five years ago, died from a nicked internal organ during her C section. Something they might not tell you. I mean before my mom said that I was like the OP and thought that C's are no big deal.
Changed's Avatar Changed 10:52 PM 09-22-2004
There is another MDC mom (my best friend IRL) who almost died 3 months ago from a doctor knicking something inside during the c section. They took her to recovery and in the little while she was alone she bled out and was found unconscious. She spent days in the ICU on a vent and lost very precious time with her new son. Nothing can replace that for her. And, her c section was only semi emergant. This may not have happened had it been planned but then it would have just been totally unnecisery.
3bees~1flower's Avatar 3bees~1flower 11:35 PM 09-22-2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by my~hearts~light
With all due respect 3boyz4us, while you may find her post insensitive, it's true to a fault. CHOOSING a section is not a good idea nor is it natural. It has it's risks. Having a disproven pelvis is another story entirly and I think you know that. This is MDC, you kow? Natural family living? There are few people here who are going to agree that it's fine to opt for a c section without damn good reason. Because it's totally unnatural and dangerous. And I've had a c section myself, btw, emergancy at 33 weeks gestation. It was horrible compared to my first, vaginal birth.

it's insensitive to make blanket statements like she was....period! without taking someone else's feelings into consideration. i said in my pp that it doesn't matter WHAT a woman's reason is for choosing a c-birth...to say she is just letting some dr tear her baby out of her womb is just wrong...who is anyone to say such a thing when they don't know the person and their reasons for a c-birth....i didn't say one couldn't disagree with someone having a c-birth without just cause....but to be so insensitive to those who DID have good reason is just not right! and that poster did not distinguish to whom she was speaking. what if some new mama read that thinking they had a just reason and then read somethng like that on a board that is supposedly sposed to be supportive, no matter what (that's always the feeling i got from this board anyway)...we are all mothers aren't we...does how our babies come into the world make this or that person any less of a mother? is it really necessary to say such things without making it sound as if she is speaking to all those who have had c-births...cause that's really how it sounded.
edamommy's Avatar edamommy 12:13 AM 09-23-2004
[QUOTE=3boyz4us]it's insensitive to make blanket statements like she was....period! without taking someone else's feelings into consideration. i said in my pp that it doesn't matter WHAT a woman's reason is for choosing a c-birth...to say she is just letting some dr tear her baby out of her womb is just wrong...who is anyone to say such a thing when they don't know the person and their reasons for a c-birth....i didn't say one couldn't disagree with someone having a c-birth without just cause....but to be so insensitive to those who DID have good reason is just not right! and that poster did not distinguish to whom she was speaking. what if some new mama read that thinking they had a just reason and then read somethng like that on a board that is supposedly sposed to be supportive, no matter what (that's always the feeling i got from this board anyway)...we are all mothers aren't we...does how our babies come into the world make this or that person any less of a mother? is it really necessary to say such things without making it sound as if she is speaking to all those who have had c-births...cause


** I DO feel like less of a mother/woman for having a c.
3bees~1flower's Avatar 3bees~1flower 12:32 AM 09-23-2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegiemom
** I DO feel like less of a mother/woman for having a c.

and i'm truely sorry that you feel this way...but that doesn't every woman does or should be made to feel that way....
3bees~1flower's Avatar 3bees~1flower 12:35 AM 09-23-2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by my~hearts~light
Another thing.... You can't take offense to someone elses opinion. Saying that " i'm only expressing MY personal preferance or opinion" shouldn't even be an issue. I think that's self explanitory. Obviosly it's MY opinion. I wrote it.
well, i do...and it didn't necessarily come across as "just her opinion"...it doesn't matter that it was just her opinion...you telling me you NEVER take offense at someone else's opinions?
Aura_Kitten's Avatar Aura_Kitten 05:08 AM 09-23-2004



i can't believe i am seeing someone defending someone's right to choose a cesarean because it's easier / less work / whatever here at MDC.


i don't care that i offended you. i believe that birth is NOT a medical procedure, and SHOULD NOT be a medical procedure. less than 2% of all women honestly NEED a cesarean section. currently the c-s rate, at least here in america, is somewhere around 35%. almost all of the women having cesareans in this country could have avoided the procedure. most of the women who are told they "cannot" give birth vaginally are being lied to. i came here to MDC, my HAVEN for NATURAL FAMILY LIVING, and i saw someone asking what the point is of having a natural birth if a planned c-section is easier ~ and i got a little angry. i got a LOT angry.

as MHL said: it's totally unnatural and dangerous. choosing to have a cesarean section, without a trial of labor, is a ridiculous concept to me.


and personally, the idea of no lochia afterwards weirds me out. women were meant to bleed after giving birth; why should we let some masked anonymous suck out the blood and fluid that nourished and protected our baby, and toss it away like so much garbage? i choose to honor my WOMANHOOD and my MOTHERHOOD and to EMPOWER MYSELF THROUGH BIRTH, and i believe that the world would be a much different place if all women could recognize the power they have as MOTHERS. birth is a deeply spiritual event to me. i do not think it should be taken out of the home + hands of women.


is it even necessary for me to add the disclaimer that this applies to healthy, well-progressing pregnancies + labors?
eminer's Avatar eminer 05:24 AM 09-23-2004
So the description of a c-section as letting a doctor "slice" you open and "tear out" your baby only applies to medically unnecessary c-sections? Even though I agree with you about elective c-section -- it is always a dangerous choice -- I am wary of language that imposes on other women a reading of their experience of birth. It's one thing to hear someone say, "I felt like I had let a doctor slice me open and tear out my baby. I felt like I had given away my power." It's another thing to hear those sentences in the third person. (Unless maybe in the form, "Some women feel..." or "This woman felt...")
Aura_Kitten's Avatar Aura_Kitten 05:32 AM 09-23-2004
So the description of a c-section as letting a doctor "slice" you open and "tear out" your baby only applies to medically unnecessary c-sections?

of course not.

call a spade a spade.
Aura_Kitten's Avatar Aura_Kitten 05:34 AM 09-23-2004
mandalamama's Avatar mandalamama 09:50 AM 09-23-2004
i too have a lot of strong feelings when i read about women choosing elective ceseareans (or choosing inductions for that matter) ... i know what it feels like to panic about the impending birth and wonder "what if?" and second-guess my own good choices. i imagine that a mom deeply in the middle of that panic could get talked into just about anything by the medical profession, or even well-meaning friends and relatives. hence i see the value of questioning the choice of a cesearean, from all angles.

but how can a mom find peace with a cesearan that just ends up happening? i mean, i know i can write the world's best birth plan, i can be educated about all of my choices and be in good control, and still end up needing the intervention. it's scary as hell to think i could labor and love it - feeling powerful and feminine and all that good stuff - and then have it torn away from me by a surgery. what's a mom to do when she does everything "right" and still ends up being cut?

peace,
meli
Changed's Avatar Changed 02:00 PM 09-23-2004
She grieves the loss of the birth that she planned, dreamed of and hoped for. She tries to look on the bright side and be thankful for the amazing gift that she's holding in her arms. But it hurts and it's damaging to your soul.
carlasher's Avatar carlasher 02:02 PM 09-23-2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegiemom


** I DO feel like less of a mother/woman for having a c.


3bees~1flower's Avatar 3bees~1flower 03:03 PM 09-23-2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by klothos



i can't believe i am seeing someone defending someone's right to choose a cesarean because it's easier / less work / whatever here at MDC.


i don't care that i offended you. i believe that birth is NOT a medical procedure, and SHOULD NOT be a medical procedure. less than 2% of all women honestly NEED a cesarean section. currently the c-s rate, at least here in america, is somewhere around 35%. almost all of the women having cesareans in this country could have avoided the procedure. most of the women who are told they "cannot" give birth vaginally are being lied to. i came here to MDC, my HAVEN for NATURAL FAMILY LIVING, and i saw someone asking what the point is of having a natural birth if a planned c-section is easier ~ and i got a little angry. i got a LOT angry.

as MHL said: it's totally unnatural and dangerous. choosing to have a cesarean section, without a trial of labor, is a ridiculous concept to me.


and personally, the idea of no lochia afterwards weirds me out. women were meant to bleed after giving birth; why should we let some masked anonymous suck out the blood and fluid that nourished and protected our baby, and toss it away like so much garbage? i choose to honor my WOMANHOOD and my MOTHERHOOD and to EMPOWER MYSELF THROUGH BIRTH, and i believe that the world would be a much different place if all women could recognize the power they have as MOTHERS. birth is a deeply spiritual event to me. i do not think it should be taken out of the home + hands of women.


is it even necessary for me to add the disclaimer that this applies to healthy, well-progressing pregnancies + labors?
well, it's so nice of you to be considerate of someone else's feelings...i'm sure you would really enjoy it if someone returned you the same courtesy...

my biggest beef was with the insensitivity of your choice of words in your whole post...if this topic were anything else (say abortion....) such insensitive comments would NOT be tolerated...why should this topic be any different? why is it ok to insinuate that a woman is being "sliced" open and her baby being "torn" from her womb, but if someone (a prolife person) were to say extremely inflammatory things about a woman who choses to have an abortion....man, that prolife person would never hear then end of it....how is speaking of a c-birth any different?

i will agree that a woman who chosses a c-section willy-nilly is not making the wisest decision, but i would never accuse her of the things you said....
plantmommy's Avatar plantmommy 03:52 PM 09-23-2004
but a woman who's had a c/sec HAS been "sliced open".

I might have said "yanked" rather than "torn"...

klothos has just described the procedure succinctly, but that poses no judgement on those who needed to have a c for medical reasons.
3bees~1flower's Avatar 3bees~1flower 04:27 PM 09-23-2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by plantmommy
but a woman who's had a c/sec HAS been "sliced open".

I might have said "yanked" rather than "torn"...

klothos has just described the procedure succinctly, but that poses no judgement on those who needed to have a c for medical reasons.
what is it with all the sensitivity around here?? why is it necessary to sound as grotesque as possible to describe something that someone else *may* not feel that way about? why? i'll say it again...if someone described to a woman who had an abortion about how the procedure went in as grotesque a manner as possible, how would that woman feel? that person who made such a description would get flamed horribly....how is this any different??

and for the record...my kids were not "yanked" out either....they were BORN!
Evergreen's Avatar Evergreen 05:46 PM 09-23-2004
Ohhhhh, I just had a long response and the server was too busy and I lost it


Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyshoes
I don't believe you--the part about the intervention-free natural childbirth. Where did she birth the baby? Who attended the birth? What made it 'natural'?

.
True, This could be the case. I didn't meet her until said child was 18 months, so I have no idea what she was thinking or feeling. BUT I do know that she did most of her labor in a hotel room, pushed the baby out in the hospital with a CNM in attendence, and had no Pitocin, pain meds, or episiotomy. I don't know about EFM, but I know she had a 2nd degree tear. Also, she was considering an epidural with baby #2, but I was quite surprised when I found out she had had a planned C.birth. However, the baby was 9 lbs 12 oz (I know many babies bigger than this who were born at home, but anyway...) and he told her some horror stories of how he "had" to break the shoulders of larger babies to get them out. I just found this out, and though, I wouldn't have been going to him in the first place, I do see how she would chose a planned C over that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmommie_annie
I was like the OP and thought that C's are no big deal.
The thing is, I have never thought Cesareans were no big deal. So, having these feelings really alarmed me, which is why I started this thread- so that klothos or someone like her would cyber kick some sense into me. It was never my intention to hurt anyone's feelings.

I am sorry to all of you who have had horrible recoveries and experiences due to your Cbirths (needed or not.)

I posted this to affirm my thoughts in the face of someone who had just spent an hour telling me about her wonderful experience. I was feeling overwhelmed, and discredited. It didn't last too long, though, and part of that is because of you guys. I guess seeing a happy, healthy, newborn with no problems nursing made me forget the statistics. I am not the type of person who would do what is easier while sacrificing what is best for my baby, and I am over it now. But thank you everyone for listening to my mental ramblings.
Aura_Kitten's Avatar Aura_Kitten 01:30 AM 09-24-2004
Quote:
what's a mom to do when she does everything "right" and still ends up being cut?

there is healing.

http://www.freestone.org/articles/Fr...nderworld.html

s
Raven's Avatar Raven 09:20 AM 09-24-2004
**putting my mod had on**

I want to remind you all that the User Agreement states that we should avoid the following when posting:

Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

Klothos posted the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by klothos
just chiming in with the belief that birth should be treated like what it is: a natural bodily function that women's bodies were made for!

BIRTH

IS

NOT

A

MEDICAL

PROCEDURE.


surgical births carry so much risk with them. why chance it?




and why have a homebirth? because HOME BIRTH EMPOWERS WOMEN.

it can be one of the most deeply spiritual and healing events of a woman's life...


OR


she can hand over that power to a doctor and let him slice her open and tear the baby from her womb.



fun.
While I can see why some would get offended by a post like this one, I do not see where the User Agreement has been violated. By all means debate the statement - but lets keep the User Agreement in mind when doing so as well as keeping the thread on topic.
simonee's Avatar simonee 10:28 AM 09-24-2004
I had the type of cs that your friend describes (dd) , and a tough vbac with an episiotomy (ds)

The difference is that ds was never separated from my body. He simply went from my inside to my outside. The extasy I felt was ours alone. I will never forget watching his head coming out, covered in my blood but turning toward me as if looking for me. He was 2 hours old before he was away from my body. An hour after that, I left the hospital with my son in my arms.

DD was 15 minutes old, wiped off and wrapped when I got to hold her. Those first 15 minutes I spent in an uncomfortable position being sewn shut. I wasn't sure whether it was the birth or the morphine that gave me my extasy, but it doesn't matter much cuz it's not that clear anyway. It took 2 days before I could hold her sitting up.



Yes, I will be honest and tell you that the cs healed quicker and better than the epi. Very much so, even. And like your friend, I had almost no lochia. My section is invisible, even to me sometimes, my epi will always bother me.

But the births... oh, it's unbelievable how big the difference is. With dd, I'm technically never sure if they switched her or implanted a chip DS is MINE MINE MINE. The difference is like that between an arranged marriage (albeit a great one) and a love deal. It's hard to say which is better in the long run, but you betchabet that the lovers will have the best wedding night
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